Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 12:23 AM

Me too, Mark. For "educated" people, there are some real un-educated here. I (goy) have known about Night and Fog and Krystlnacht since I was about 10.......my question is....Where have some of these people been???

Night and Fog (Nacht und Fug) is not only a documentary film, it is also a euphemism for the "late at night in the fog" Disappearances of Jews and others prior to the actual Holocaust..........many thousands disappeared before documentation began.......and I will say it again....IT WAS NOT ONLY JEWS THAT DISAPPEARED!!!

I can only wonder, where have some people been?

Sorcha, who finally had the courage to watch Schindler's List........and was surprised.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 10:20 PM

To the contrary Mark. I, for one, found your posting very important and well thought out. Thanks. I just meant the general tone of some of the posts, plus on other threads of late.

kat

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Mark Clark
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 07:58 PM

I hope my post wasn't seen as part of the bickering. I sort of stumbled into the middle of that before I realized what was going on. I wish I hadn't posted now... maybe a JoeClone will take pity and just delete me from here.

I thought the subject of this thread was too important to ignore and too close to us all to be a source of more fighting. Wrong again.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 06:01 PM

Blackcatter, thanks for the link to your article. I was pleased to see Sugihara mentioned. We have a wonderful woman,Mariko (Mako) Miller, here in Wyoming, whose father was a very big wig in post-war Japan and married a Japanese woman. Mako wrote a biography of her parents which became a best-seller in Japan. She is recognised on the streets there. She is an Honorary United States Ambassador to Japan and as such brings many cultural exchanges both to Washington, DC and to Wyoming, for which I am very grateful.

One of the most memorable of those was a visit by Sugihara's son, who spoke to us of his father and his life. It was an honour to learn of his efforts.

While I hold a good deal of respect for everyone who has posted on this thread, it sickens me to see such bickering; it seems to have become the norm for the Mudcat. Millions were murdered, many still are being murdered. Enough said, remember them and work for Peace.

katsaddened

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Peg
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 01:35 AM

Night and Fog is a documentary film about the concentration camps, by Alain Resnais. 1955.

Rather famous, suprised you haven't heard of it.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 01:01 AM

Peg, what is "Night and Fog" please?

Alex

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Peg
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 11:21 PM

This thread got hijacked in a horrible fashion. Have we really learned anything since the days of the Third Reich? When arrogance and narcissism were the orders of the day? (oh and hatred, of course)

I watched "Schindler's List" for the first time this week (had avoided it before because I just did not think I could handle it). I was very very moved. It brough tme back to the day in 7 th grade when our English teacher (Mrs. Keyser) showed us "Night and Fog." I found it hard to believe it was real then. I still do.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 08:33 PM

Tedham. You said:

"In fairness to Irwin, he did not say what you quoted him as saying. He was himself quoting someone else and responding."

You were absolutely right. My apologies, and thanks for pointing that out.

Rick

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From:
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 01:59 AM

Several people have mentioned the Gypsies....here is a search http://www.google.com/search?q=gypsy+holocaust. There is a National Geographic article in the last month or so's magazine about the ROma and it mentions the Holocaust. My sister had a boyfriend from Romania and he told us ...I think before the overthrow of the Communist party...that Gypsies were still being taking out and shot there. So it still goes on. It is a terrible world isn't it? I wish we also had one day, just one day a year, when we could just totally forget everything had gone before, and just lie on the beach and swim now and then. And once I went to a dinner with the officers of the First School Battallion, Transportation Corps. They were all going to Vietnam, many not to return. And we asked the Batallion Commander, a very wise man, who had been quite young in WWII, and had passed up incredible opportunities in civilian life to stay with the military. If anyone could give it to us straight, this question we could not ask, why are we fighting in this war. And that is what he said, so it will never happen again. And of course it has, again and again, but perhaps to a much lesser degree than it could have when all is said and done.

mg

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Troll
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 12:42 AM

So, is it the fault of todays Jews, or the fault of the press that most news releases don't mention the non-Jews killed in the Holocaust? Or is it the consensus that groups like the ADL control the discemination of information to further their own purposes and that the press simply reports what they are told?
Quite frankly, the fact that someones education was not as good as it should have been should not be blamed on the ADL but on the local and state school boards.After all, when the curriculum was accepted, surely someone checked it for completness and accuracy?
And if not, why not.

troll

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 08:53 PM

Well, I'm glad to see the thread get back to what I think Alex's original point was. (Thanks, Blackcatter) Irv and Tedham, I think Alex clarified the statements that seem to have been misunderstood as "anti-semitic." Trying to paint him as an anti-Semite because he disagrees with you only makes YOU look like jackasses. And I can say that I agree with some of what he said. When I was in high school (not that long ago), the non-Jewish Holocaust victims were barely mentioned. I'm sure you both mention all the other Holocaust victims in your services or whatnot. I'm even willing to believe that most Jews do the same. But Tedham's original post did NOT. 90%+ of what is mentioned about "Holocaust Remembrance" in the press doesn't mention non-Jews. You know this is true, or you are ignorant.

All the time you spend digging around his Mudcat history, looking for clues of his horrible, evil, racist tendencies could have been better spent arguing the facts with him in a civilised fashion. (Something that Tedham, at least, spent some time doing) Get a friggin' hobby, or act like big boys and stop calling names.

Well, I'm not saying anything new. Just wanted to add my own "Screw you, guys," to the mix. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Blackcatter
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 07:05 PM

The Jehovah's Witnesses were forced to wear a purple triangle.

I believe that the estimates I have seen is that around 10,000 of them died. Many more escaped because of their organization and their ties to J.W. communities in England , Canada and the U.S. Many who were killed chose to stay in Germany to help others escape in the hopes that they would be a bit safer.

Alex (and all), I'd rather not comment on the above discussion. This is not an easy subject to discuss - especially if there is a criticism to be voiced. People take the subject seriously and the idiots who try to deny the gravity of the Holocaust (I'm talking about those who try to deny that it occured or who are racist and think that the Nazis were ok) understandibly make us all sick to our stomachs.

The best thing about a discussion like this is the opportunity it afford us all to learn. Please, everyone - learn and never forget - never forget the Jews and never for get everyone who died in some sort of massacre.

Like the estimated 400 million Africans who died due to the slave trade (1500-1880)

Like the estimated 250 million American Indians who died due to European encroachment (1492-1910)

Like the estimated 9 million Pagans (and those just accused of Paganism) who died due to the Inqusition and other Christian agression (1400s-1700s)

and on and on

Ironically, the only thing that humans seem to be better at than killing other humans is giving birth to other humans.

pax yall

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Blackcatter
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:52 PM

The Answers:

Slavs (Poles, Russians, etc.) - anywhere between 5 million and 16 million - It is difficult for the West to know, because the Soviets took control of those areas and held on the the statistics. It is estimated that as many as 4 million Soviet prisoners of war died in captivity (the number of Western P.O.W.s is under 3,000)

Roma (Gypsies) - Between 100,000 and 500,000 - But Romania under the control of Germany reportedly exterminated another 200,000. This number is difficult, because pre-war European nations universally undercounted the population of Roma in their midst.

gays - anywhere between 50,000 and 200,000 - this is a rough estimate because gays were often not listed as being gay in the official Nazi paperwork, but there are estimates that over 60% of German gays were killed

handicapped - the most common figure I have seen is 275,000.

While the Nazis kept good records of the individuals who were sent to concentration camps, at least 30% of the victims of the Holocaust were killed in their homes and on the streets and were rarely tallied.

Pax yall

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:43 PM

Thank you, Blackcatter, for the nonaccusatory tone of your post.

Actually the only other number I know is 5 million.

Also the Jehovah's Witnesses, although in small numbers in Europe at that time, got a special page in the Nazi's book, for their views on patrotism vis-a-vis religion (I'm simplifying here). They had their own arm-patch symbol, although I forget now what it was.

I'm sickened that I can't express my feelings here and have them taken seriously and not be attacked or dismissed out-of-hand. I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, and have. Yet I am unspeakably evil, apparently. Just sickening.

Alex

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Blackcatter
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:37 PM

To be honest, most of the news blurbs I have heard about Yom Ha'shoah this week do mention only the 6 million Jews, but I tend to believe that this is "sound-biteism" and just about any service you attend will include the fact that Jews were only a part of the total exterminated in the Holocaust.

It can be said that the Jews who were exterminated get more press, at least in the U.S. (at least that is what I've seen). It wasn't until I recently did some research on genocide that I learned the totals of other individuals who were killed.

I don't believe that this is a bias towards Jews - I just think that the Jewish Community in the U.S. is more organized and better able to tell of the Holocaust. Certainly I am not aware of any major efforts by gay, handicapped or Roma(Gypsy) communities or organizations to focus public attention on their Holocaust stories.

And truth be told, few in this country are aware that some estimates list the death toll of Slavs to be even higher than those of Jews. (And those estimates do not include all the Slavs killed in battle).

This is just a quick quiz, but how many of us know the estimates of total numbers put to death of all the various communities during the Holocaust? Until I did the research I only knew that about 6 million Jews died.

How about:
Slavs (Poles, Russians, etc.)?
Roma (Gypsies)?
gays?
handicapped?

pax yall

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:24 PM

"I will accuse you of being an anti-semite and then leave when you are trying to defend yourself."

A great way to increase understanding and sympathy between peoples.

Alex

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:18 PM

You were the one who introduced controversy into this thread with your suggestion that Jews do not remember other victims of the Holocaust.

I ASK YOU: What did the original post say?

I will quote it verbatim, via the magic of cut and paste:

This day that honors the memory of the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis during the Holocaust

I was just believing what I was told, Irwin. Sue me.

Alex

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: GUEST,Irwin In Israel
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:13 PM

Alex,

You were the one who introduced controversy into this thread with your suggestion that Jews do not remember other victims of the Holocaust.

You were one who said that Holocaust education in the United States ignored other victims.

aI went to public school in Massachusetts and was certainly not taught that it was only Jews who were murdered by the Nazis.

You were the one who suggested that the Holocaust teaching you described was imposed by Jewish organizations. You suggested the ADL.

Tedham went to the ADL website and found their teachings were otherwise.

Today, I've spent time on the websites of Yad Vashem, the Holocaust museum in Jerusalem, and of the United States Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC. Both of them discuss at great length the other victims of the Holocaust.

There is something very wrong that a discussion of the Holocaust has become a discussion about you. I have exchanged e-mail with Tedham and he has been sickened by this. He has told me that he will not come back to this thread. Nor will I.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 04:40 PM

THE ORIGINAL POST FROM TEDHAM PORTERHOUSE:

This year's observance of Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day) begins this evening (Wednesday May 18) at sundown and continues until sundown on Thursday.

This day that honors the memory of the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis during the Holocaust.

The day also pays tribute to the Partisans who resisted the Nazis.

Thank you Tedham for the reminder.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 04:27 PM

had you taken the moment it took me to do a Google search for the ADL website,

Yes, let's all just do web searches -- no need to have a Mudcat Forum at all.

Alex

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 03:59 PM

I will also point out that if I hadn't said what I did about the non-Jews, this thread would have been much skinnier and *I* for one (and I would wager many other mudcatters) would not have learned as much as I did from this thread about the Yom HaShoah/Kaddish. My honesty about my feelings served a purpose, and brought me enlightenment.

I could have just stewed in my ignorance and gone away with a bad feeling in my mouth.

Which apparently you think would have been the better course of action. I disagree.

Alex

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 03:54 PM

Your intended implication is that there is some kind of Jewish control of Holocaust teaching in the U.S.

I have answered this. Did you read my answer? Why challenge people if you are not going to read what they say in response to your challenge?

In another thread that Irwin pointed me to, I saw a message from you equating Jews, as an ethnic group, "brutal opressors" because of actions of the Israeli government in regard to the Palestinians. Actions, by the way that many Jewish people and many Israelis, also object to.

I did no such thing. Irwin misread me as saying that. I thought I had cleared that up with him. He definitely pointed out that many Jewish people and many Israelis object to the state of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, and I acknowledged this fact.

You also made a point of stating in that thread that you had no Jewish friends. That, in fact, the only Jew you even know was "one of the kids my teenage boy hangs with."

You say that you are widely read on the Holocaust, on anti-Semitism, etc. I would have thought that someone with such deep interest would have known some Jews in his lifetime.

Do you realize there is a difference between my current circle of friends and the people I've known in my lifetime? Apples and oranges, my friend. I can't even see why you bring this up, except to slam me.

Speaking as a child of Holocaust survivors and grandson of Holocaust victims, who were murdered only because they were Jewish, I find your attitudes very hard to take.

Which ones? You haven't correctly identified any of my attitudes yet. You are only seeing what you THINK is there, not what is really there.

Also you don't seem to be able to read it when someone changes their opinions, or retracts overstatements. I tend to lead with my strongest feelings, and then accept correction and rethink my opinions and feelings. This is the way I operate, whether I'm talking about folk music or history or ragout recipes. If you are the sort who tends to take someone's first statements as set in stone, and can't assimilate any changes from what is first said, then we probably shouldn't discuss anything, because you'll miss what I'm all about.

I realize that any strong feelings I have that have any content relating to Israel, the Holocaust, Jews, etc. are likely to get me branded an anti-semite. I get tired of it, but I'm kind of used to it by now. For the most part I am able to talk these things through with people until we both understand each other. Apparently this won't be possible with you. I'm sorry about that, but I can't change you or your way of dealing with people.

It's unfortunate that you and I can't come to some sort of understanding on this. But I don't intend to lose any sleep over it, nor do i think this proves me to be anti-semitic.

Alex

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 03:44 PM

Alex,

I was incorrect to suggest that you were ignorant of the Holocaust. For that, I most certainly do appologize.

However, you were the person who said, "The only problem I have with Holocaust Remembrance is that it tends to bifurcate the holocaust and only look at the death of Jews. 5 million non-Jews died in the gas chambers also. Who remembers them?"

The direct implication in your statement being that Jews who remember the Holocaust do not care about non-Jews murdered by the Nazis.

The fact of the matter is, as many people here have stated, all of us who remember the Holocaust, including the major Jewish organizations, remember them.

You went on to infer that Holocaust teaching in the United States education education system ignores the non-Jews murdered by the Nazi regime. I am a product of the New York school system and I was taught that there were millions of non-Jewish victims.

You said, "Ah but who writes the curriculum? Surely the ADL has some say? I find it nearly impossible to believe that no Jewish agency whatever has any oversight or provides no input concerning the content of the Holocaust units the schools teach."

Your intended implication is that there is some kind of Jewish control of Holocaust teaching in the U.S. While offering no proof of that, you particularly slur the ADL. However, a visit to the ADL website reveals that they teach that millions of non-Jews were persecuted and murdered by the Nazis.

The truth, had you taken the moment it took me to do a Google search for the ADL website, is exactly the opposite of your innuendo.

In another thread that Irwin pointed me to, I saw a message from you equating Jews, as an ethnic group, "brutal opressors" because of actions of the Israeli government in regard to the Palestinians. Actions, by the way that many Jewish people and many Israelis, also object to.

You also made a point of stating in that thread that you had no Jewish friends. That, in fact, the only Jew you even know was "one of the kids my teenage boy hangs with."

You say that you are widely read on the Holocaust, on anti-Semitism, etc. I would have thought that someone with such deep interest would have known some Jews in his lifetime.

Speaking as a child of Holocaust survivors and grandson of Holocaust victims, who were murdered only because they were Jewish, I find your attitudes very hard to take.

You know Alex, if you had said something like, "let us also remember all of the victims," I would have been the very first to agree with you. But, that's not the way you put it.

To all others reading this discussion: I certainly did not introduce this thread to spark any kind of debate with Alex. The Holocaust, and our reasons to never forget it, should never be a matter of debate.

With that, I will sadly withdraw from this discussion.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 02:27 PM

Baruch hashem.

Amen.

if the Holocaust can happen in Germany, it can happen in the U.S. or Canada or Australia or Africa or anywhere at all

Too true. Let us never forget, and be constantly vigilant.

To respond to Yom Ha'Shoah with, "What about the others?" is a testimony to the good it does. It's a valid question which should be asked and acted upon.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Perhaps I'm not such an evil man after all!

you show incredible ignorance about the Holocaust and about the Jewish people

What exactly did I say that shows ignorance about the Holocaust? I want exact words of what I said that displays my ignorance of the Holocaust, or a retraction of this outrageous and unfounded claim.

Alex

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 02:21 PM

I wonder why cowards without handles need to sling mud at members? Ah. Increases penis size. Forget I said anything.

As for you, Tedham, I'm sorry you also feel the need to attack me. I hope it helps the ol' wanger.

Alex

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 02:19 PM

Please remember ALL of those who died, and stop pointing fingers. This isn't the time and probably not the place.

Baruch hashem.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Mark Clark
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 01:53 PM

I never tire of hearing of the Holocaust. I don't think it's possible to give the subject too much exposure. The Holocaust is something none of us must ever forget, even for a moment. We must create a collective memory somewhere in Jung's collective consiousness so that no people can ever forget that a Holocaust can happen.

Of course, history is full of examples of the cruelty of mankind. In this regard, the Holocaust is but another example. The wholesale slaughter of the Jewish people is unforgivable, but for me the thing that makes the Holocaust stand out is the speed with which the German people bought into the Nazi message of hatred and became silent or active accomplices to the horror.

I keep returning to the idea that if the Holocaust can happen in Germany, it can happen in the U.S. or Canada or Australia or Africa or anywhere at all. It's because most of us are sheep, easily (mis)led and not too particular about questioning the truth of what we are told. It's too easy for us to believe that tragedy or persecution of some other group happens because that group shares some imagined flaw that accounts for their misfortune. We protect the few miserable possessions that we believe establish our value in society while we quickly forget the moral attributes that define who we wish to become.

I remember when Ronald Reagen first came to power in the U.S. Our country was on pretty good terms with the Soviet Union. We had cultural exchanges, industrial and agricultural exchanges, and the people of the U.S. had a generally optimistic attitude about the Soviet people. Very soon after Reagen took office he began talking about the Soviet Union as the "Evil Empire." I remember thinking that no one was going to buy that characterization and that the press would surely have a field day with it. To my amazement, he kept repeating the reference over and over until the press began picking up the reference as well. Before long it was the Evil Empire everywhere you looked. No one seemed to notice the change or the speed with which the U.S. population bought into the change. I don't mean to be taking a stand on the accuracy of that characterization, it's just that it was surprising how quickly an entire nation could be reoriented.

It can happen here.

It's so easy for unscrupulous leaders (I guess that would be all of them) to turn our attention away from the "man behind the curtain" by creating an enemy for us to dispise. It's much easier to stir up hatred of a people than to inspire trust and compassion and politicians always go for the quick solution. In the U.S. the press has completely abdicated its role as doubter and investigator. It prints and reports any sort of statments it receives from politicians seemingly without question. No attempt is made to verify the veracity of press releases. Muckraking and investigative reporting have disappeared entirely.

So who will question? Who will stand up and accept ridicule in order to defend some other group of people? Who will travel to Selma, who will fight in Spain, who will march on Washington, who will maintain the moral compass and make sure that it hasn't been tampered with? We will always have tyrants and demagogs. The question is whether we will find the wisdom to understand that any injustice inflicted on the other group can also be inflicted on us. Will we have the courage to stand up and say no? What sacrifice are we willing to make to ensure that a Holocaust can never happen again.

If we ever stop thinking about the Holocaust, it can happen again and eventually, it will.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: GUEST,in room 325 of the Motel 6
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 01:37 PM

It is instructive to read what Alex/Mousethief says about himself in his profile in the Mudcat Resources. In the first sentence, underneath his picture, Alex/Mousethief states that he is a "white male."

I wonder why he needs to stress his whiteness.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Jarlo
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 12:47 PM

I don't know why the 5 million Gentles (and in particular the 1 million Gypsies who were among those) have not received as much attention as the Jews. If we examine the history of this, though, it was the persecution of the Jews which got all of the press throughout the thirties. The Nazi's themselves publicized the Jews above all others as the object of their hate.

Also, the Jews of Europe had family elsewhere in the world who began asking what happened to them. It's natural that the big news story at the end of the war would have been the answer to that question: what happened to the Jews. Remember that the full truth only came out slowly, in stages. Early on, the figure of 6 million Jews got registered in people's psychies as "the" number.

As for the other genocides, we probably pay more attention to all of them now because the Jews have continued to confront us with the importance of caring and remembering. To respond to Yom Ha'Shoah with, "What about the others?" is a testimony to the good it does. It's a valid question which should be asked and acted upon. Yom Ha'Shoah is doing what it's intended to do by stimulating us to ask it.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 12:00 PM

Alex,

I did not say you were an anti-Semite. In fact, I quite clearly said that I was sure you did not consider yourself one.

You made innuendos about Jews without bothering to find out if they were true. In looking through Mudcat, I found another thread where you castigate Jews because you object to the actions of the Israeli government.

For someone with as many books about the Holocaust as you claim to have, you show incredible ignorance about the Holocaust and about the Jewish people.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 11:41 AM

Tedham: I think that branding anybody an antisemite who has not actually shown overt hatred is doing a disservice both to the person, and to the concept of antisemitism. I am not an antisemite (or an anti-anybody-ite) and it degrades us both for you to claim I am.

There is a tendency among some (I'm not saying that you fall into this group) to brand anybody an anti-semite who says anything that disagrees with the actions of the nation of Israel, or of some famous Jewish group like the BB or specifically the ADL. To me this sort of thing doesn't help anything, and just makes matters worse.

Nor am some conspiracy nut (I HATE all conspiracy theories, as a matter of fact), nor do I believe the nonsense about the Jews owning all the banks, media, whatever. I've read real anti-semitic propaganda. I know what ZOG stands for. It's vomitous stuff, full of venom and hatred and small-mindedness (and lots and lots of historical nonsense, which is to say bullsh*t).

But I don't think that believing that curriculum-writers would get help from Jewish agencies (most probably the ADL) to plan a Holocaust curriculum falls into the same category as believing that Jews run the world. It's just common sense.

If I were writing a curriculum about Catholics, I'd ask a Catholic for help, or at least to check my work for innacuracies or unconcious slant. If I were writing a curriculum about Hindus or Buddhists, again I'd ask a Buddhist or a Hindu (or agency thereof) to check what I'd done to make sure it covered it in a way they felt was adequate.

Thus if I were writing a curriculum about the Shoah, *I* certainly would ask the ADL to make sure I had covered all the bases.

I would be willing to wager that I have close to 20 books in my personal library just about the Shoah, and although I haven't read them all (one must pace oneself with such gut-wrenching material) I have read among other books The War Against the Jews so I am fairly well educated about this issue, as Americans go. I will continue to read the others as time and intestinal fortitude permit.

I'm encouraged to see the ADL doesn't totally forget the non-Jews that the Nazis singled out for genocide. But saddened that they don't appear (from what you have posted) to give the number, and further that they try to draw a thick black line between the groups "Jews" and "Everybody Else". Granted "The Final Solution" was first designed with the Jews in mind, and that is horrible (and alas! oh-too-understandable given the long history of European anti-semitism).

But were the Nazis really just hoping to thin the population of (say) the Rom? Or were they maybe trying to totally wipe them out too? Of course there were fewer Gypsies than Jews in pre-ww2 Europe so the numbers aren't nearly as impressive. But genocide is genocide.

Which is all I have been trying to say all along. I am sorry if it has sometimes seemed I was trying to say more. Why didn't I find out about the other 5 million until I got to Germany? The emotional impact of the other 5 million on me, and why they should have been left out of the American school curriculum (at least in the 1970s, when I was its patient), is what I have been trying to address here.

I am encouraged that the Kaddish remembers all the victims of the Shoah. Unfortunately few gentile schoolkids ever get to be present at a Kaddish (forgive me if I've got the grammar wrong; I'm not entirely sure how to use the word properly!). Further I absolutely love what has been done for "righteous Gentiles" by the nation of Israel (as much as I disagree with many of their anti-Palestinian policies, as I have expressed on other threads here).

My daughter and I saw a presentation at her Jr. High School by a Dutch man who along with his mother was hidden, during the war, by a gentile farmer's family. He went back to find them about 40 years after the war, but the man and his wife had died. Still, he persisted and found a daughter and had the man and his wife proclaimed "Righteous Gentiles" posthumously, and the remaining family members were awarded a placque and I believe a cash reward by the Nation of Israel in a ceremony in Israel. The man's whole story was very moving.

Troll: I am NOT saying the Holocaust should not be taught. I would like to see the Federal government actually FUND the things they force the states to do, but that is a more general question not specifically related to the WW2 Holocaust. I would also like the Ukrainian famines to be taught, as well as what Pol Pot did in Cambodia. Nobody's genocide should trump anybody else's IMHO.

Bonnie, you are of course right. This is the reason I keep reading books about the Shoah. Unfortunately when I was in Germany (this was between my junior and senior years of high school) my time was totally controlled by the Paedogogische Austausch Dienst, and visiting a concentration camp was not part of the package. If I ever get back to middle Europe I really do want to visit a concentration camp.

Thanks everybody who wrote.

Alex

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Jarlo
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 11:37 AM

Alex wrote:

"I'm not sure I could "take" Schindler's list. Like Firecat visiting the concentration camp, I'm afraid of what my nervous system wouldn't be able to handle."

Just get a box of Kleenex and do it anyway. It's not all negative. Here was a man who never did anything great or self-less in his whole life, before or after. But for just one time he did an extraordinary thing. The film points out that only 4,000 Jews live in Poland today. The Schindler Jews and their descendants number 6,000.

A Holocaust museum is also not all negative. The one in Dallas memorializes "rescuers", also. In addition to the many individuals, it includes one (but only one!) country: Denmark, and one (but only one) town: Le Chambon-sur-Ligne. It's takes away some of the pain to realize that when individuals and communities _want_ to do something, they can.

BTW, it's a common school field trip in Dallas to take students to the Holocaust museum. I think the children know more about it than their parents.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Gervase
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 11:06 AM

For anyone in the UK, I can thoroughly recommend the permanent Holocaust exhibition at the Imperial War Museum in Lambeth (built on the site of the Bedlam madhouse in an inspired change of use!).
There the point is made that it wasn't just Jews who died, but that the "Final Solution" was drawn up specifically to rid the world of the Jews - thus, as Tedham rightly says, the Jews were unique victims of Nazi genocide.
It's an awe-inspiring exhibition exploring the both the darkest and the noblest strands of the human spirit, and I don't think anyone leaving it could ever again joke about anti-Semitism, racism or any sort of national superiority (which is one reason why I'm proud to be a judaeophile but vehemently anti-Zionist).
It takes a good three hours to absorb, with archival footage, interviews and artefacts, and should be on every school's "must see" list.
And Keith's right - Britain took in nearly 50,000 Jews before September 1939 - more than almost any other country in the world (inlcuding the USA). They have more than repaid this by contributing immensely to this country in every field, but particularly the arts and science. It's something we should perhaps bear in mind today with all the cant and crap being bandied around about asylum seekers.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 10:45 AM

Alex,

Because of your message, I decided to see just what the ADL (the Anti-Defamation League) has to say about the Holocaust.

I found a section of their website with a teaching guide about the Holocaust that is specifically for children. In its explanation of the Holocaust, which you can find for yourself at http://www.adl.org/children_holocaust/about_holocaust1.html, it's opening paragraph says:

"The Holocaust was the systematic persecution and annihilation of more than 6 million Jews as a central act of state by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945. Although millions of others, such as Romani, Sinti, homosexuals, the disabled and political opponents of the Nazi regime, were also victims of persecution and murder, only the Jews were singled out for total extermination."

As you can see, the ADL does teach that millions of others were persecuted and murdered by the Nazi regime.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Troll
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 10:08 AM

Alex.
Are you suggesting that the Holocaust not be taught? and if not, why not?

troll

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 09:08 AM

Alex,

Irwin In Israel suggested that you do some research before offering opinions based in ignorance. It was good advice.

I cringed, first in anger, then in sadness, when I read your latest statement:

"Ah but who writes the curriculum? Surely the ADL has some say? I find it nearly impossible to believe that no Jewish agency whatever has any oversight or provides no input concerning the content of the Holocaust units the schools teach."

I'm sure you don't consider yourself an anti-Semite. However, casting such aspersions with no knowledge of fact, is an anti-Semitic act. Your statement carries the age-old messages and innuendos of Jewish control and Jewish conspiracy that have long been the tools of anti-Semites.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 08:27 AM

It was interesting, my uncle who is a concentration camp survivor began to question at our Passover sedar why it is we passed down from generation to generation how we were freed from slavery in Egypt, yet at the sedar meal we never take time to remember the suffering of the oppression felt during the Holocaust. I guess that evening we should have discussed Yom HaShoah and how saying Kaddish allows us never to forget the nightmare of genoside.

Alex, although it is overwhelming to visit a concentration camp or holocaust memorial I feel the experience offers a depth of understanding that reaches our soul in a way no book or discussion on this subject can possible come close to. I visited Dauchau in Germany and the holocaust memorial in Washington. Those moments are imbedded in my brain. They changed me as a person.
Just like what Bert was saying, we are all neighbours. We are a community of souls on this planet. If my neighbour is in need may I have the courage to open my heart and home to him.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 04:53 AM

American Public Schools are forced (if that's the right word) to teach on the Holocaust several times between 1st and 12th grades. At least if they want to continue to receive Federal funding. Of course that may change with Bush in office; I don't know.

you should know that the public schools in this country dish out all sorts of partial information and call it the totality

Ah but who writes the curriculum? Surely the ADL has some say? I find it nearly impossible to believe that no Jewish agency whatever has any oversight or provides no input concerning the content of the Holocaust units the schools teach.

Peg, what a horrible thing! Holocaust deniers are certainly a breed apart. Of what species, it's hard to guess.

Yes, alas, Adolf can't hold a candle to Stalin for sheer numbers of people destroyed. We're talking factors of at least 3, and maybe 4. But it's all equally heinous and none of it should ever be forgotten.

I'm not sure I could "take" Schindler's list. Like Firecat visiting the concentration camp, I'm afraid of what my nervous system wouldn't be able to handle.

Alex

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 03:07 AM

It's disturbing how few younger students today know about the holocaust. I used to take it for granted that everyone knew about it. Polls of students show a much different story. This time of remembrance, then, is essential for education and awareness of the holocaust.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Blackcatter
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 12:54 AM

Greetings all,

I've just written an article on Yom Ha'shoah.

I don't know how to do the "blue clicky thing" but here's the link:

http://home.att.net/~UUSNews/yom.htm

It tells a bit about the holiday and also details the major "other holocausts" of the 20th century. If you think Hitler was the biggest name in mass murder, think again, by most accounts he was THIRD.

Also those who have bickered on this thread, please remember what yall are bickering about. Is it really important compared to the numbers of innocent lives that have been destroyed?

pax yall

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Troll
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 12:36 AM

Alex, as an educated man you should know that the public schools in this country dish out all sorts of partial information and call it the totality. I have seen history lessons on WWI that never mention the Kaiser.
I can well believe a holocaust curriculum that mentions only the 6 million Jews.
But the others are remembered at least once a year. On Yom HaShoah.

troll

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Bert
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 12:26 AM

So "that's" why there's a re-run of Schindler's list on PBS and I'm sitting here with tears rolling down my face.

I think that one thing we must NEVER forget, it wasn't just Nazi's, it wasn't just German's who caused the holocaust. It was PEOPLE and it could happen here.
We must never forget our neighbors, the guy next door may be noisy, the guy two doors up may be a redneck, the guy across the street maay steal our garbage cans. BUT they are our neighbors. If we can create a community down our street (even if it's only down our street) we are doing something to prevent this happening again.

We have neighbors who are Italian, Ukranianian and black and they are all prepared to put up with this Limey as a neighbor. Love starts next door and, as long as you steer clear of your neighbor's wife, things will be just fine.

And with Mudcat we have neighbors in just about every country in the world. There's gypsies, and Irish and Limeys and Scots and Germans and Jews and Catholics and Buddhists and Hindus and, and, and, and if 'any' of them come knocking at your door you're going to throw your arms around them and welcome them in.

Love to you all.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 09:32 PM

Rick,

In fairness to Irwin, he did not say what you quoted him as saying. He was himself quoting someone else and responding.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Peg
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 09:22 PM

I found an article of mine (an interview with Erroll Morris, the director of the documentary Dr. Death, about a man who invented the lethal injection machine and who worked with holocaust revisionists) on a website dedicated to denying the Holocaust happened. I was horrified and wrote to the webmaster asking my work be removed immediately.

I finally had to have my editor contact her and invoke the protected copyright law. By way of explaining her behavior (her theft of my work and reprinting it without my permission) she decided it was a good idea to defend her revisionist stance to my editor, explaining how her research has borne out her findings etc. Sickening, and scary.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 09:12 PM

Irwin said

"The only problem I have with Holocaust Remembrance is that it tends to bifurcate the holocaust and only look at the death of Jews. 5 million non-Jews died in the gas chambers also. Who remembers them?"

Anyone with the intelligence to read, look and listen, and the curiosity to want to be informed.

Rick

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 06:59 PM

Owlkat, Britain did not close its borders to Jewish refugees. Thousands came and many stayed after the war. There would be few holocaust survivors indeed had not Britain stood alone against the Natzi.
Shalom,
Keith.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 06:45 PM

the Jews do, and nobody else

I remember them, and I'm no Jew.

Or are you saying this proves I'm a Jew? Strange logic.

Alex

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: Jarlo
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 06:41 PM

"5 million non-Jews died in the gas chambers also. Who remembers them? "

The answer to this is simple: the Jews do, and nobody else.

I've been to the Holocaust museum here in Dallas many times, and the guides always mention the gentiles who died. They also have a permanent memorial to the non-Jews who died.

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 06:00 PM

My basis for this is this: I grew up in the USA and went to school in the USA and had "holocaust remembrance" drummed into my malleable brain for 12 years in public school (those are schools owned by the public, for our Brit friends). After 11 years of this the number "six million" was pretty well burned into my brain.

Imagine my surprise when I went to Germany, and in the museum in the basement of the Reichstag learned that ELEVEN MILLION people died in the gas chambers.

This was a completely new revelation to me. The American School System, with its built-in holocaust history element, over the course of 11 years, failed to teach me what the Germans did in five seconds: 5 million non-Jews died in the Holocaust.

That's what I base my claim on.

Alex

Subject: RE: Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
From: GUEST,Irwin in Israel
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 05:54 PM

"The only problem I have with Holocaust Remembrance is that it tends to bifurcate the holocaust and only look at the death of Jews. 5 million non-Jews died in the gas chambers also. Who remembers them?

Alex"

Alex,

What is your basis for this? Have you ever been to Holocaust memorial ceremony? Have you ever to a Holocaust museum?

Last night at my synagogue in Haifa, we had a Yom Hashoah program that mourned Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, political prisoners and others murdered in the Holocaust. All were mourned.

Perhaps you made your statement in the vaccum of ignorance. If so, perhaps you should do some research before offering an opinion.

In another thread, I detected anti-Semitic attitudes by you. I was convinced then, after discussing the issue with you, that you were not an anti-Semite. Now, I'm not so sure.