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BS: No such thing as British...

GUEST,Brendy are you ok? 28 Apr 01 - 02:59 AM
Brendy 28 Apr 01 - 01:17 AM
GUEST,pOoR OuLd BrEnDy - 27 Apr 01 - 03:35 PM
Brendy 27 Apr 01 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,oK MrS BrEnDy 27 Apr 01 - 03:18 AM
Brendy 26 Apr 01 - 05:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Apr 01 - 05:41 AM
GUEST,Brendy must be a little kid? 24 Apr 01 - 08:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Apr 01 - 07:45 PM
Grab 24 Apr 01 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,McGinty 24 Apr 01 - 12:00 PM
KitKat 24 Apr 01 - 11:39 AM
JulieF 24 Apr 01 - 04:53 AM
Brendy 24 Apr 01 - 12:51 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Apr 01 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,keith a at work 23 Apr 01 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,Keith A at work 23 Apr 01 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,OOPz Dear JudeL 23 Apr 01 - 10:12 AM
JulieF 23 Apr 01 - 07:48 AM
JudeL 23 Apr 01 - 07:35 AM
Les from Hull 23 Apr 01 - 05:50 AM
Gervase 23 Apr 01 - 04:16 AM
Brendy 23 Apr 01 - 12:57 AM
GUEST,Pete M at work 22 Apr 01 - 10:35 PM
cait 22 Apr 01 - 08:36 PM
GUEST,"British" It should not be allowed? 22 Apr 01 - 04:41 PM
Melani 22 Apr 01 - 03:46 PM
Brendy 22 Apr 01 - 02:52 PM
Penny S. 22 Apr 01 - 02:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Apr 01 - 02:42 PM
artbrooks 22 Apr 01 - 02:02 PM
Penny S. 22 Apr 01 - 01:33 PM
Penny S. 22 Apr 01 - 01:23 PM
cait 22 Apr 01 - 01:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Apr 01 - 09:54 AM
JudeL 22 Apr 01 - 09:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Apr 01 - 08:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Apr 01 - 07:41 AM
lady penelope 22 Apr 01 - 05:05 AM
Crazy Eddie 22 Apr 01 - 01:13 AM
Brendy 21 Apr 01 - 10:58 PM
GUEST,Sadie 21 Apr 01 - 10:44 PM
Brendy 21 Apr 01 - 10:24 PM
Dave Wynn 21 Apr 01 - 06:54 PM
Dave Wynn 21 Apr 01 - 06:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Apr 01 - 02:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Apr 01 - 01:53 PM
cait 21 Apr 01 - 01:29 PM
Caitrin 21 Apr 01 - 01:23 PM
Caitrin 21 Apr 01 - 01:19 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: GUEST,Brendy are you ok?
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 02:59 AM

Tut tut tut, is this a phreak out of what?

Have a Penguin Brendy you are boiling over.

I used subscribe to a newsgroup where there was a lot of soul searching and strong talk. But that was about the North. One person used drive me off the wall, always the same thing 'I am a this (fill in your value here)' and could not nor would not admit to being Irish, British ok but not Irish. Funny thing is Irish IS British just like it is European, it is a label applied by the Europeans a long time ago.

The End

This Production Brought To Your Screen By Gnome Productions UK.

Director Mudcat >===>:-


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Brendy
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 01:17 AM

I had thought, purely for reasons aesthetic, mind you, to let your last posting hang in mid-air, so to speak, for as one eminent Mudcatter so elegantly put it in one of his songs (though I wouldn't presume to suggest that he had you in mind when he wrote it)..."A Monkey fart should smell like a banana."

We have a saying in my neck of the woods also. It goes something like..You can take the man out of Maryland, but you can't take Maryland out of the man.
Odd saying, but there you go!

The question, though, that I have to ask myself now is.. is whether I should detain you here any longer, for if you can't be trusted to go home at a civilised time, I wouldn't sleep at night at the thought of being responsible for you wasting your 'substance' in that curious practice of yours...the act of Cyber Masturbation.

Basically your above post goes as follows:

Phut...Phut..Phut...oh yes.yes.yes....Brendy...Fuck Him....yes..just there.....down a bi...oooohhh....yeah..hang on...hang on..yes...yess YES...Diaspora....Ohhhhhhh yeahhhhh.....Phut Phut Phut phut...here it goes yes yes YEs.....FUCK!!!..the bullying...I have to give him that...ah no..no....no... please don't go down NOW...No...Good...here it comes again....Yes...yes YES...YES...ENSLAAAAAAAAAAAVE...........Christ....that was a great word....Anybody got a cigarette?

Imagine the nightmares I would have, geez.

No, I'm afraid. I mean where would it all end?
Next thing we know you'll be wanting to talk about buckets of water and all sorts of shite like that.

Ohhhh No - as Mr. P would say.

Though I'm sure you could find some public toilet, where I have heard that the 3d version of your particular fetish is all the rage.

Your Old World is falling apart, my dear chap. All that will be left of your other curious affliction - Unionism by Proxy - will be your precious record of how it once was when we were in the driving seat. You are like the 'fluffer' in a porn movie film crew...useful for a while, but the first one to get the sack. Especially if you don't come up with any interesting ideas.

"I'm sick of watching them break up,
every time some bird-brain puts us down.
Makin' jokes on the radio...
Guess it helps them all drown out the sound
of the crumbling foundations.
Any fool can see the writing's on the wall.
But they just don't believe that it's happening."

Paul Brady © Rondor Music

B.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: GUEST,pOoR OuLd BrEnDy -
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 03:35 PM

Bar man give Mr Brendy whatever he likes, rosin, strings or a new Tune Book, Song Book. Me I would like a large glass of Brown Ale,

Ain't it funny how the vanquished always cry foul at each and every little thing? King Nial the Stupid of Leinster invited the English to help him kill his own country men, that Mr Brendy was how the first English forces arrived in Ireland. Strong Bow, gave his name to that fine poor mans wine easlily found in any OffLic storer in your town, Cider.

Ballygobackwards

Like I keep reminding you as soon as the unifying British leave the eeejits begin. Look at the civil war, it's foul stench still hanging around today. You may think it bad to be a minority in the North, what about the minority in the South? Seems to me that in either case we are going backwards not forwards. Have you ever talked to any of these great 'new' Irish? What amazes me is their haste to emotion, bigoted attitudes and may God help the person who gets in their way.

The Very Reverend Ian.

Last I heard he had become so Irish he could easily oust the O'Realythickos by simply announcing he had taken over, didn't some community in the south offer him a crown for their fledgling Clan revival?

The Orange Order, well darn it Brendy am I not completely absent minded? They defended the Planters from the recently dispossesed Irish. Or so the history books tell us. They now claim to be the defenders of Democracy an new twist on an old tale. They too have been Irishified complete with drunk eeejits jumping around on July 12th all over the North.

The problem with modern Ireland is it's inability to admit it was invaded, planted, and civilised by the English , I suspect if it did there would be no Northern Ireland but one Democratic country.

On the local level the disease is selfsupporting, there are folks there who never left their own little town making decisions that reach out all over the world to the Irish Diaspora. They celebrate their OWN clan, they get jobs fixed for their OWN relatives, they bend the rules toward their OWN clan. They discriminate against anyone not of their own clan, they have a pecking order of who will be next in line for all the perks that influence brings. As a result any person not born to the right parent in Ireland will never have a life unless, like my family did, they leave. Not only that the long and evil reach of the McFixits reaches out over the globe and the eeejits continue to steal from their own people!

How they took over. After they let Collins win the war against the English, they - eeeejits - shot him dead. So not only are they eeejits they are backshooting cowards as well.

Nowadays their chief claim to fame is the 'Mericanization of Ireland'. Brendy they destroyed Collins' Ireland one morning in a Hotel in Florida, or was it Washington, in 1982 or was it 83, when the let the Mercans have the Republic for a few million dollars. They sold us down the river. Other countries acquired by the same means are - Indonesia, Korea, and lately Argentina, and soon the UK itself.

The English and Bullying. I do not argue that point, it is part of being invaded and planted. Do you think the Irish or should I say the Scoti were kissyface and huggyletsmake friends to the natives of the Highlands? No Sir the invaded by the sword and shoved Gaelic down the throats of those unfortunate people. The Victor takes all, but as YOU know the English were not half as nasty as the Scoti! The Scoti never bullied they simply chooped yer head off if you disobeyed them. Swift and instant assimilation lol.

The facts now make the entire island of Ireland by race and language British but some of the people there do not accept it, they are deluding themselves, they are mad Brendy, the Irish disease -False Identity Syndrome. Does Mr Paisley say he is Scottish? GAWD HELP BONNIE SCOTLAND There are folk in the North who call themseves ScotIrish. They are mongrel British dawgs drunk on clean Irish air and Bushmills and/or Guinness.

Maybe you should apply that critical mind to Logic and Information Technology instead of contributing to the rape of Erin by the cultural eeejits who have turned into an international 24 hour 365 days a year session? Now that I am really mad about it I hasten to add the new masters are not fiddling as Ireland goes down the tubes AGAIN but busy buying up the real estate and working to totally enslave ALL the people including you.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Brendy
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 06:58 AM

On the nose? You're not even at the same football game, for Christ's sake!

First of all, I'm not a 'Mrs' (I'm not even a 'Miss' or 'Ms'), secondly, everybody of substance around this forum knows that I don't touch the stuff, and according to you England is the saviour of the world.
Two wrongs don't make a right.

"..I was not educated in the 26 counties...I never gave it a second thought as I did the Irish Classes"
Do you often contradict yourself in the space of one sentence?
What's all this nonsense about the 'nightmares, geez.', then?

"Ireland and the Irish, Brendy there are lots of people in Ireland with Scottish names, Welsh names and English names, so whose identity will they have?"

Irish of course. Heritage is one thing - nationality is another. Isn't that what the jist of this thread has been about, anyway?

...The English and later the British forced the Irish into unity"

Forced is one word...unity is quite another one entirely.
It has always been a great wonder of mine...how statements like "If the British hadn't done this..", or "If the British hadn't done that..." don't get pondered on quite enough by independent minded people. It says a lot about the psyche of a people, for me, anyway, to doubt their sense of objectivity and their perceived place in the overall scheme of things.

Which is, again, what the subject of this thread embraces.

To talk of people's blood lines and deny that the inhabitants of four so closely situated countries will inter marry, inter breed, etc., is a non starter, as far as I'm concerned.
Of course they're going to...trade is going to take care of that, anyway. Children who are born in a country automatically become it's citizens. Their anscestors may come from Fiji, but they themselves are (for the purposes of this 'argument') Irish.....until he moves to...Poland, where he marries a Polish girl (gets the opportunity to change his own citizenship, by doing so), and have children, who will automatically become Polish...blah, blah, blah.

It's where the child sees itself is what ultimately counts, here. Not necessarily how it arrived there. You see yourself as 'British'. Fair enough (well not 'fair enough' actually, but we'll get back to that one). But does that mean that the nationality of every past inhabitant of 'your' island should be served upon the inhabitants of mine. Given an ordinary trade relationship, that would never happen - nor would any Court of Human Rights have stood idly by while they witnessed it.

The fact is that one of those countries - England - saw itself as the stronger one. But rather than being the benevolent neighbour, it became the bully of the schoolyard.
Once Offa's Dyke and Hadrian's Wall no longer proved an obstacle to their version of 'Centralised Government', this Subdued/United Kingdom marched forward and took everything they could set their 'Men O' Wars' sail to.

Where people see themselves is fundemental to their sense of identity, and it is not the sole preserve of the 'British'
The Orange Order, for example, vow allegiange to the Queen, yet have refused to obey any reigning monarch's 'order' since 1780. Too much of that kind of thing can can muck up your own sense of reality, IMO.

It was also interesting to note, however, the Reverend Doctor's (Ian Paisley, to the un-initiated) reaction to the recommendation that the cattle in the North of Ireland be on the list of banned meat, way, way back at the start of the BSE crisis.
Apparently 'we' were British....but our cows weren't.

I hope you didn't lose all your money in the bookies.... and that you didn't forget to give the wife a few bob, first.

Can't detain you any longer in the pub, I'm afraid. It wouldn't be fair on herself.
And, besides, I've got a gig to do.
Oh, sorry, didn't tell you, did I?
I'm a musician.

Told you we were talking on two different levels.

Don't get too pissed.

B.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: GUEST,oK MrS BrEnDy
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 03:18 AM

Pull up a stool and have a large glass of Whiskey on me, you will need it!

So you want one the nose, then here it is. Collins made a perfectly fair and sensible arrangement with London, but De Val BS etc and his equally stupid idealistic eejits started a civil war over what? They wanted to MAKE the majority of the North come in with them BY FORCE! I am not surprised the NI majority refused.

Ancient and less ancient history, well the best thing about the soup for conversion is this, you would soon learn that the religion they shoved down yer throat was and IS a bunch of twaddle as well, written by sheepherder nomads in the deserts of North Africa drawing upon the state religions of Sumeria, Egypt and laterly Greece. A society where polygamy was rife as well as syphilis and with that the insanity of old men covering young women - barely out of childhood. No wonder there are so many inherited diseases in that nation. Read it and see for yourself Brendy.

The whole Book from start to end is one massacre after another - no wonder Ireland is at war with itself. Do yer selves a favor, burn the book and all the other religico brain washing piffle that goes with it and start over with some local supernatural thing, hey what about leprechauns?

Ireland and the Irish, Brendy there are lots of people in Ireland with Scottish names, Welsh names and English names, so whose identity will they have? In the rest of Britain the same applies. So what you have is a fact of life Brendy - Russells in Clare and Murphys in Manchester. Britain, Brendy, IS A FACT.

I was not educated in the 26 counties - but lived there long enough to know what was going on. Move on to what? From what? I never gave it a second thought as I did the Irish Classes - they were stupid and hence ignored.

There is a Net Person called Sir Random in Ireland, real name Morris, he is proud that his grandfather was in the Rah, and shot and killed people, funny thing Brendy, the name Morris is to England what Murphy is to Ireland, a very local name, and know what English folk dance is called Morris Dancing. I think the point is slowly getting through, so I will irritate ya some more. Padrig Pearce had ENGLISH - English born parents, Clark was very nearly the same thing but a few generation along the shibeen lane, and Collins was an acient Irish name NOT. For heavens sake WAKEN UP. And last the straw that will help you to reality, Bobby Sands family WAS ENGLISH Brendy, Adams is a descendant of a Planter family - are ya mad yet or are ya givin in. Easier to face the truth when ya leave the lil green islands one day and move out in the big world where you'd give a weeks wages just to sit and talk Football with any European let alone British person. Like I already said WAKEN UP.

My ancestors were Gallowglass and know what the locals where ma da lived called him a Scot after 400 freakin years in the same parish! Ireland if not British is nothing because it ends up with - like I said before-the O'Rowdies on one hill fighting with the McDumbos on the next.

In fact if the English did not bring some centralised rule there it would still be Clans murdering and thieving from one another. The English and later the British forced the Irish into unity. But as history shows, in doing so it also made the people BRITISH by blood. I have English heritage from IRELAND Brendy and I bet if you look at your family so have you.

Conaught, Leingster, Munster and Ulster. How would you like it if the Kerry people sued for indipendance, as well they may one day? I leave it in your capable Gaelic hands to keep the Island in one piece, but last time I looked it was not going anywhere.

Bar man set them up again I am off to make a bet. Cya.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Brendy
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 05:18 AM

Look, my Man/Woman.

You talk of the era of De Valera, and you're trying to use it as some sort of a stick; to pour scorn on how a young 'nation' was desperately trying to regain it's sense of identity.

Inside the six counties no such compulsion was required to learn the Irish Language, or at least to (God forbid) sit a GCE in it.
It was a ploy that may have backfired, as those who did want to learn it...did, and this saved us from a lot of disgruntled and bitter people, who like you, had no choice in the matter.

Personally, I wouldn't have made the learning of Irish compulsory. But hindsight is both a great educator, and bringer of understanding.

We are, though, talking about 'curative' measures, here. After having had our culture almost destroyed; where starving people were given a bowl of thin soup in return for re-canting their religion and identity, you complain about the cleaning up the mess. Or at least seem unwilling to forgive the methods they employed.
I am familiar with Myles na gCopaleen's imagery of 'na Gaeligorí', and the An t Áthair Pheadar Úi Leirigh's of this world, as they tried to standardise the form of the language.

They were rough times, I know. But as you well know, the abolition of corporal punishment is a relatively recent concept, and I (as a pupil of the Christian Brothers) was not spared any of the rod, just because I didn't have to..but did, choose to learn Irish.

But are we going to sit here and share horror stories from our childhood? You don't have a chip on your shoulder, Guest...you have the Amazon Rain Forest sitting right there, and it's emitting large doses of Carbon Dioxide, to boot.

Fair enough, you ran away from the country with enough resentment to fill pint glasses with.
That is sad, for a lot of people, as you rightly point out, left dis-illusioned. I hear very few exiles, though condemn their homeland in the terms that you do.

"...I am for Britain because it makes sense - and besides I love all the different things there, like Newcastle Brown Ale, Soda Bread etc etc. To seperate it up into little fiefdoms of different languages, where will that end? The O'Grumpies on one side of a river throwing rocks at the LaGrotties on the other, while they have not even one shared word to work out their problems?..."

Prefer Britain if you like (although I don't remember anybody asking you to make a choice in the matter), but Newcastle Brown and Soda Bread are easily available at home, and I don't think there was ever any plan to seperate Ireland up 'into little fiefdoms of different languages'. If you left for those reasons, you were both unobservant and subject to not a little degree of paranoia.

You were educated in the 26 counties, and you had it tough. I was educated in the 6 counties and I had it tough.
But the difference between You and me is that I came to terms with it...and moved on. If I never held it against my parents for giving me the odd 'clip around the back of the ear', I can certainly use the same reasoning to forgive those at whose hands I suffered a hell of a lot worse.

But that's your choice. And I know that sometimes it feels better to acquiesce in the bitternesses of the past; it certainly can give a person that extra reason to hate. But that choice is also yours.

I see no 'argument' in your post, but I sensed the intelligence of it by the 'handle' you gave yourself.

Be bitter if you want to be, and don't face up to your demons. But until you sort that trip out, you and I will be communicating on two different levels.

B.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 05:41 AM

Hey - nice to see you all still here after my slight break. Some good points still being made. My brain is still in meltdown after listening for 2 days about how a new tape drive works but I will try to get it back in gear:-)

I agree with you about surveys Gervase - not because of the survey taker 'urges readers to ring in' but because the only people who do ring in are the people who care enough to do so. Either way they can be misrepresentative but I did try to make the point with the 'lies, damn lies, statistics' comment. The main point that came across for me was not so much whether the readership agreed or not but that it showed there was more than one way to interpret his statement. And a number of people did interpret the statement, rightly or wrongly, in the same way as me. I was accused of being the only one out of step and wanted to put the record straight. I do know that I can still be wrong and however many people agree with me they can be wrong as well. I thought it a little unfair to say that it was only me and the survey provided a me a vehicle with which to prove the statement could be (mis?)interpreted by others as well.

Hippopottomii (sp???) and carots. Hmmm - had a bit more difficulty here. Very nice point, well made and I will remember to use it myself in the right circumtances (with permission of course Kevin!!!). Not sure how it fits in to this debate though. Using the same logic, if I say "French is not a cuisine" I am not denying the existance of either the French peoples or the existance of food. The statement is also true in some respects but I would not say it in a restaurant in Paris and expect to get away scot free! Im very unlikely to offend either a hippo or the carot but substitute either of the terms with any group of people and any type of ethno/racial definition and some people may, rightly of wrongly, get hurt. A politician in the run up to an election cannot afford to alienate anyone. I still think he's a Klingon btw - is that why you are defending him Kevin and is there something you are not telling us? *BG*.

If a politician makes a similarly ambiguous statement he should expect some critisism unless of course it is to totaly like minded people. But that could never be because the differences in the way people think are all part of this (sometimes) wonderful world we live in.

Cheers.

Dave the Gnome

BTW - if this is to continue does anyone want to do a part II, or have I had enough yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: GUEST,Brendy must be a little kid?
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 08:33 PM

If you'd attended a National School when they walloped the idealistic Gaelic twaddle of De Valera etc into poor underfed children you'd have a right to cuss, especially when you would know that many of these children ended up on the Boat, if you know what that meant. I suppose the Parents got the Leaving Certificate = A ONE WAY TICKET TO LONDON E_N_G_L_A_N_D. Then when in this new country what did the school teachers think of the little Gaelic scholar? Hey they did not even ask. It was and it remains a minority language TG - I shudder to think what young emigrant woul've had to edure if they were Gaelic Speakers as you idealists want them to be. It was a waste of time in most cases and a crime against those thousands of emigrants who had to endure it.

But then perhaps you are just a flame fisher -

It is much the same misery that I beg modern Plaid Cymru to avoid, sure lets try to revive it BUT NOT BY MAKING IT THE BARRIER TO GETTING AN EDUCATION CERT or JOB! That kind of stupidity leads to a resentment.

I learned more Gaelic in one day with a native speaker on a building site in England than all the freakin junk I did in NS. At least he could speak it properly unlike the Teacher who could not! Now there is another beef I have and darnit I am mad about it too, why send a 'certified' teacher who was not a native into a class in the first place? Ireland, land of exams and paper! BS - fill your values here LOL.

The idea of some hoss of a woman bearing down on a little kid with 'cunas ' at max volume still gives me nightmares geeez.

I am for Britain because it makes sense - and besides I love all the different things there, like Newcastle Brown Ale, Soda Bread etc etc. To seperate it up into little fiefdoms of different languages, where will that end? The O'Grumpies on one side of a river throwing rocks at the LaGrotties on the other, while they have not even one shared word to work out their problems?


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 07:45 PM

Sorry JulieF - I had another squint at the form, and the question about country of birth is there after all. (The thing that got me confused is that they used to invite a more specific answer, which would have indicated county rather than just country.)

As for Cook's speech - of course like any politician in the run-up to an election, he's into scoring points and drumming up support. That's what they do for a living. The interesting thing is though that he clearly thinks that, this time round, the winning card to play is the anti-racist one - traditionally the boot is on the other foot. I find that quite encouraging.

Of course, it distracts attention from the fact that in a lot of ways the Labour government is every bit as racist as the Tories - in an ostensibly anti-racist law that permits and encourages racist discrimination by immigration officers.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Grab
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:20 PM

I'm not sure what the argument is with what Cook's said. Let's consider if he'd said the opposite - "yes, the British are a race" or something like that.

Possible interpretations of this:-

(1) The British are a distinct race, classified by recent ancestors being white and coming from areas in Britain. This then means that there can be NO SUCH GROUP as "British blacks", for instance! These ppl would simply be "blacks living in Britain" and denied any place in British society, with the implication that they don't belong and can be shipped back to their country of origin at the whim of the government - some countries actually do have this approach with their immigrant populations.

(2) The British are a distinct race, classified by recent ancestors coming from areas in Britain (whether white or other). This then means that there can be NO SUCH GROUP as "British blacks", for instance! These ppl would be simply "British" and could by definition have no separate culture.

I honestly can't find any way in which he could have answered the question without effectively saying either that ppl of immigrant origin don't belong in Britain, or that ppl of immigrant origin can't preserve their cultures. If anyone else can, please let me know - I've seen lots of heat on the notes above, but very little light! This seems more an issue of "look what the newspapers can drum up when there's not much news" than anything else, with ppl spouting predigested opinions provided by the papers.

Graham.

PS. Kudos to McGrath for the hippos and carrots line! nearly fell off my chair! :)


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: GUEST,McGinty
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:00 PM

Course there isn't... There's only us Scots, & all you other bastards, who'd like to be Scots!


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: KitKat
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:39 AM

I just think that Robin Cook is a worthy successor to the title formerly held by Neil Kinnock: 'Little Ginger Nuts'.

Let's face it: if he had any integrity to start with, he's had enough years in politics to make him as corrupt and self-seeking as the rest.

I diskard him (with apologies to Nigel Molesworth)

KitKat


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: JulieF
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 04:53 AM

McGrath, I could have sworn there was a country of Birth question when I looked through the form - I'ld check when I get home.

All the best

Julie


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Brendy
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:51 AM

"...look at Ireland where they tried to revert to Gaelic in the 40's - 60's..."

Don't talk twaddle, dear Guest.
I'm sure you know that it was a crime to utter any word of the Mother Tongue, a crime punishable by death, I might add

The 'British' almost did a damned good job at wiping out indigeneous languages, in the Celtic Isles.

The fact that they do not survive today, like they should have been always allowed to exist, is not our fault. We should not have had to 're-learn' our languages.
So much time wasted, trying to undo what 'civilisation' bequeathed to us. The Irish did not feel the need to change all the place-names to something a little more Anglicised. We were never that arrogant

Like I mean...who the fuck, in their right mind, would want to call a place Belfast, when the original Béal Feirste was perfect the way it was?

B.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 06:36 PM

as she can put down that she was born in Scotland

There's nowhere on our census form allowing you to say where you were born - it used to be included, and was quite a valuable question for people working-out population shifts and so forth over the last 100 years, but they dropped it last time round.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: GUEST,keith a at work
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 11:19 AM

Ffion , I just started by saying it was a feature of Brit culture that we stand up for the right causes . We "got ourselves into the scrap" yes to stand up for Poland and against the rounding up of certain minorities. We asked for help as we faced defeat by a loathsome racist regime. . Sorry if I understated the part played by USA before they entered the war.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: GUEST,Keith A at work
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 11:13 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: GUEST,OOPz Dear JudeL
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 10:12 AM

Well if the language survived, then it must have something to recommend it to it's users.

JudeL, if you'd look at modern English threre are many words and concept gleaned from Cwmru not the least of which is the very nature of it's construction, course that can be easily explained when as you must surely know this or Cornish was the primary laguage from Kent to Merrioneth at one time. Now as to keeping the language I too feel that it is a good thing, but trying to change the entire Country from Angelsey to Cardiff would be a terrible mistake, look at Ireland where they tried to revert to Gaelic in the 40's - 60's. The people very soon took that where it belongs. I grant you though, that Manx, Welsh, Gaelic do contribute to the richness of the Culture of Britain and would not want to see them gone, in case you are wondering.

Borredah - please forgive my Welsh it is nearly 30 years since I lived in Welsh Wales.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: JulieF
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 07:48 AM

Personally, I will always clasify myself as a Scot first and then British. I have never had any problem with either classification but will take exception to being called English. The main problem is the way that some people have used the term British in the past in which what they are describing is a white, English grouping - example the waving or the Union Jack at English Sports events. This is largely improving and I would not be unhappy to see people being proud of being English and then British. In the same way that I believe that it was a mistake not to include an English Parliament in devolution.

On the Census form I will write Scottish in the other category as the cenus officer has indicated that this is OK but I would not be upset as putting my Ethnicity as British. Tim will put Irish and our daughter Cat has decided that, as she can put down that she was born in Scotland she will also classify her ethnicity as Irish. There is something liberating in being able to classify yourself as you feel.

All the best

Julie


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: JudeL
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 07:35 AM

"if native languages were better they'd still be there" - were you being intentionally offensive or just plain ignorant in both senses of the word? Welsh is still spoken not just as a curiosity but as a first language, despite a certain English School Inspectors Policy which attempted to stop it being spoken a couple of centuries ago. If you don't know what I'm talking about then go and learn before making any more fatuous remarks.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Les from Hull
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 05:50 AM

Pete M - acually Germany declared war on the USA (in support of their Japanese allies).


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 04:16 AM

Far be it from me to cast a slur on the good folk of Manchester, but they must be a bit daft in the head to believe a survey in the Manchester Evening News - most such surveys are self-selecting garbage "compiled" by urging readers to ring in - "honk if you're a honky" if you like.
As such, it's only use would be with regular perforations and hung in the khazi.
As for the main thrust of the thread, I think Cook was absolutely right, and made one of the more intelligent and coherent speeches I've heard in a while. However, just because there may be no British "race", it doesn't mean to say that there isn't a group of people who like to think of themselves as "British". To speak of a British race is as absurd as some liberals who speak reverently of "the gay community". You might as well speak of the red-headed community or the community allergic to bananas. However, you can be gay, red-headed or allergic to bananas.
As for me, I love bananas and am a complete mongrel - part Paddy, part Brit, part Frog and wholly incoherent much of the time.
And I'd still rather be a citizen than a subject - but maybe its bes to let than one lie fallow for a bit...


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 12:57 AM

From the Guardian newspaper

B.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 10:35 PM

Sadie, The various definitions of 'race' in the context of a descriptor for a sub group of a species is clearly open to discussion depending on one's acedemic background. These however seem concrete and immovable when compared to the concept of 'ethnicity'. I have had to work with information systems which use ethnicity as a descriptor for some time now, as a means of monitoring how well policies serve one group of people as opposed to another, and I have to say that it is in the context of its everyday use, a completey meaningless attribute and the data collected under its banner worthless. It may be a valid and useful construct in say social anthropology, but has been hijacked to point where it is a Chesire cat word, it means what ever whoever is using it at the time wants it to mean. By the way, I would question your assumption that Aussie, Kiwi, Jock etc are derogatory by definition - unless its a Kiwi refereing to an Aussie of course ;-)

As almost everyone has agreed, despite any difference we may have on the definition of 'race' the ascribing of moral, ethical, behavioural or physical/mental attribute to a group based on a spurious and non correlated attribute ie eye colour or normal place of residence IS racist and that is exactly what Cait is guilty of.

On the subject of the four stackers, if memory serves me correctly these were obtained not under lend lease but in exchange for a long term lease to the USN of naval bases in Bermuda. Les is correct in his definition of the qualities required for convoy escorts, and the unsuitablity of these vessels, although their range and depth charge capacity was improved by removal of a boiler. Nonetheless they provided a stopgap.

The 'unofficial' contribution of the USN and US coastguard to convoy escorts prior to the entry of the US into the war is well recognised by anyone who is interested in naval affairs. The great shame (in both senses of the word) is that once war was declared by the US, the USN hierarchy forgot or ignored everything learned in the previous years and refused to institute convoys or enforce a black out on coastal towns as "it would affect business" and thousands of merchant seamen survived the crossing of the Atlantic only to die within sight of the US ports.

Pete M


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Subject: to penny,
From: cait
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 08:36 PM

i at no point said that i was upholding myself as the pinnacle of polite perfection, dear lady, and i believe i was addressing malcom when i prayed he not go on.

you've held me to be objective and subjective in opposite order to actuality.

that's quite all right, as we hardly know each other, how could you tell?

at any rate, the issue within this thread is about what national traits do constitute 'britishness', isn't it? *or something like* it's not been suggested that it's about MY nationality...has it?

hardly the point, then.

*caiti*


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: GUEST,"British" It should not be allowed?
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 04:41 PM

Edie, seriously you can't be thinking right? Are you drunk?

The term is Cultural/Social/ Geographical even - though it used be Political.

cait - ok ok - I think I know where you are comming from but I would love to get the opportunity to take you on a tour of the Islands :) I grew up in postwar Britain and at the time we all pretty much 'hung together' we had to! It is not unuasual these days for cousins to be from Galway Ire and Oldham Lancs UK for example.

Then as if that is not complicated enough we have a heritage of swapping British identity for as long as historical records were kept! So in a way Mr Cook is not so much wrong as misinformed, perhaps he is trying to placate the ever growing influence of Asian money in the Islands? Now that I could understand.

Paddy etc etc, well if I did not already know there also are 'pet' names for the other parts of Britain I would be complaining. Fact there is, Pom English, Taff Welsh, Jock Socttish, now some regional examples Culchie used in Dublin for a country person, Geordy used in England for a person from Newcastle, Scouse person from Liverpool. Sheesh are we seriosly thinking the use of these words makes even the smallest impact? My negative reaction, if I had one, to being called 'Paddy' would worry me a lot more than the new label. You can call me Taig, or Taffy what ever you like to call me but do not then call me by phone and ask for money lol.

I cannot imagine why anyone does not want to keep the British Isles as a catch all name for the region, since it does not claim ownership by any Political entity. There are but two centers of Administration at this time that I know about, perhaps there may be more as time goes on, they are London UK and Dublin ROI. These have nothing to do with the cultural issue, in fact I would be very surpised if they did. It is a common language area, the language is English and I bet if the native laguages were better they would still be there, no offence intended to my friends in Welsh Wales or the Gaelteachts. This is precicely the point! Our ancestors had the good sense to adapt whatever they found better and adapt they did! So whether it was in Wessex or Wexford or wherever they knew what they were about.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Melani
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 03:46 PM

I personally have been quite delighted to be listening to the radio and hear some guy with a totally Arabic or Pakistani name speaking with a totally British accent. As a resident of extremely multicultural California, I am used to all kinds of racial and ethnic types as American citizens. I would assume "British" to be a political designation in the same way. After all, we probably all started out in the northern part of Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 02:52 PM

Thanks for that, Dave.

So, the question remains...what are the British?

English people with a superiority complex?

B.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 02:46 PM

Actually, I, and anyone who ever saw me on Sports Day, find the idea of me and race belonging in the same sentence very unlikely.....

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 02:42 PM

The term British Isles can be a bit irritating - but not so much if you think of it as just meaning the bunch of islands of which the island Great Britain (so called to distinguish it from Brittany across the channel) is the largest.

In fact there is not any political entity called Britain. There's an island called Great Britain, a political entity called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, made up of the nations of England, Scotland and Wales and a portion of the Irish province of Ulster.

So as well as the UK, the British Isles includes, the rest of Ireland and also the Isle of Man. But not the Channel Islands, which aren't part of the UK either Confusing...

But how Dave the gnome, and 93% of callers to the Mancghester Evening News can evidently persuade themselves that "The British are not a race" is "a pretty clear statement" that "the British don't exist" - I find that even more confusing.

If the man had said had said that a hippopotamus was not a carrot, that would not be to deny the existence of either hippopotami or carrots, hard though that may be to believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 02:02 PM

In the States, saying that you "have class" is normally considered to be a compliment. However, I doubt that any comment made by any politician about any other politician (regardless of ilk) has any value whatever.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 01:33 PM

And from your last post, you've met some real horrors, who I would find it hard to be courteous to. The upper class, and those who aspire to it tend to use manners and "politeness" as territorial markers and a way of identifying their tribe. When I come across I remember quietly to myself that they are operating on a very basic hardwired level which they share with dogs and even lower parts of the animal creation. (It's probably because they know that they are endangered, and are behaving defensively.) Then I amuse myself by watching them showing everyone else how incapable they are of rising above the brainstem level. But I gather it's not just in this country - America has class, too, doesn't it, or so I gather from some of the remarks made by the new regime about Clinton's bunch.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 01:23 PM

Unfortunately, the British Isles moniker was allocated when the British government was crayoning (note oblique creta/preta reference) in pink all over the map. There was a book recently called "The Isles" which tried to avoid the problem this has led to. It's rather difficult to think of a suitable name to encompass the geological/geographical grouping of rocky chunks without conflating it with a political non-reality.

And, cait, the issue of racism is primarily about not attributing characteristics to large groups of people which may or may not be derived from members of that group, and then insulting all members of that group as though those characteristics apply to all of them. If you accuse all the British, or English, of being the most non-PC nationality, what does that make you? Even if you have met some unpleasant representatives of this island, you don't know all of us. As I don't know what nationality you belong to, I can only judge you on your own characteristics, which is as it should be.

I've come across some extremely unpleasant and selfish Americans, and had to read a lot of racist slurs - it does seem that it is not only not racist to slag us off, but also politically correct to do so to some people - but the Americans here will testify that I've never applied the attitude I could have got from that to them. (I've met far more decent ones, anyway).

I agree that we have some dire press, but check out The Independent (www.independent.co.uk) and The Guardian (www,guardianunlimited.co.uk) for something a bit better.

Penny, who won't be told not to go on


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Subject: mcgrath...
From: cait
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 01:18 PM

maybe 'caucasian' isn't correct...i was trying to avoid using the term 'white'...i mean that the brits have instituted shades of prejudice within its own 'causasian' ethnicity, as well as towards causasian ehtnicities outside its borders (all the 'pink bits'). i'm not addressing british prejudices towards people of other 'color', 'race', 'ethnicity' or whatever politically correct term is fashionable or least offensive to those people, not at this time.

of course racism is not a british preserve, but it makes me larf to hear how 'polite' the brits are. they're hardly civil to one another within their own country, let alone to others living or visiting there. that's why i replied to malcolm.

being 'reserved' hardly equals 'civil', it's closer to 'retentive'.

i've been informed (by polite brits) that no american could possibly be equal in social standing (whatever that is) to any brit by dint of being a yank in the first place...this belief, whether politely withheld or openly expressed, is hardly the basis of truly polite regard. it's the basis of haughtiness and arrogance. being oh so civil while holding the deep belief that one's class, 'race' or culture is ultimately superior isn't, either.

i suggest that tolerance of difference is the basis of the only truly polite behavior towards others. when the brits achieve this, i'll be the first to say they are the most advanced people on earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 09:54 AM

Oh - just another couple of other points and then I REALY must go....:-(

He did not say we British don't exist

Quote from the speech - "The British are not a race" Not a race seems to be a pretty clear statement to me.

nor in conflict with anyone here, except Dave. ..... As far as I have seen, his speech seems to have been generally well received.

Quote from the Manchester Evening News "Postbag Debate"

We asked if you thought Robin Cook was right. The response was overwhelming; more than 9 ot of ten callers said no. Yes: 7% No 93%

Perhaps the "Well received and Not in conflict" statements should read well received by everyone except ignorant Mancunians who don't count anyway...?

Ah well - you know what they say. There are lies, damned lies, statistics and political speeches...;-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: JudeL
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 09:43 AM

crazie eddy; before telling us that Ireland isn't part of the British Isles I suggest you check your atlas. Whilst Eire is politically not a part of the United Kingdom, geographically it is part of the British Isles.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 08:25 AM

BTW Brendy - before I go of on my course - In case you did not know what guest Sadie was on about with "and an Irishman as a "Paddy" and get away with it" I think she may have been refering to the news item where the 'who wants to be a millionaire' quiz show had complaints about a particular question - something like "Which people are referred to as 'Paddy'". The complaints commision ruled they were not being racist in this case as it was also some sort of term of endearment!

For the record I don't think they should have got away with it and they wouldn't have got away with it with me either (Even though I'm not Irish). It is annoying, as Sadie said, that some terms cannot be used, and quite rightly so, yet some seem to be acceptable. The difference is beyond my limited reasoning I'm afraid!

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 07:41 AM

Yus, my lady. Good idea.

Parker, writing on behalf of Dave the Gnome who is on a course until Wednesday and therefore unavailable.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: lady penelope
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 05:05 AM

Talk about arguing in circles! Admit it, what people really don't like is politicians. I think we should classify politicians as as "race" seperate from the rest of humanity and just turn all our vitriole onto them.

TTFN M'Lady P.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 01:13 AM

To:
Mr. Red, Jude L, & Jenny the T
The terms "British Isles" & "british isles" are reserved for islands which are BRITISH. These would include the mainland of Britian, Isle of Wight, Isle of Skye, etc. but NOT the mainland of Ireland or other Irish Islands such as the Blaskett Islands, Tory Island etc.
Pretty logical really.
If you want to refer to both mainlands, and their associated smaller islands, as a group, may I suggest the term "Celtic-Anglo Archipelligo!" You never know, it might catch on!


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Brendy
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 10:58 PM

"and an Irishman as a "Paddy" and get away with it.."

You wouldn't get away with it, with me!!

B.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: GUEST,Sadie
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 10:44 PM

How is it possible to have such a far-ranging discussion and not use the term "ethnic"?
How is it alright to refer insultingly to an Australian as an "Aussie" and to a Frenchman as a "Frog" and an Irishman as a "Paddy" and get away with it, yet to refer to a Pakistani as a "Paki" is deemed a criminal offense almost?
Something is wrong somewhere.
Sadie


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Brendy
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 10:24 PM

Why?

B.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 06:54 PM

Just a pity they haven't the bottle to bring back capital punishment.....It would make them the perfect party for me!!!!!.

Spot (the hangdog)


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 06:51 PM

Cook....say something of his own.....grow up team....he is a limited IQ socialist poitician...Told (and speech vetted) what to say at all times. He is given sound bites just like the rest of the "slow" old Labour politicians. This is what he is....please don't be fooled by the current New Labour dimwits...they are fooling the labour vote quite well......

I hope it continues...we have a better form of conservatism now....I am making a packet on the obvious share market......

Spot (the Tory) dog


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 02:44 PM

Nothing wrong with slagging off politicians, but preferably not when for once in a while they actually say something true, as in this case.

And cait, I hope "caucasian ethnicity" is used ironically, and that you aren't actually suggesting that there is such a thing as "Caucasian ethnicity", except maybe in the Caucasus (where most Caucasians would probably object to the term anyway, since it suggests similarity, whereas there are about half a dozen smouldering wars going on between the different peoples living there.

And I wish racism was an English preserve, but it's not. Currently England appears to be rated as one of the less racist societies in Europe...Which from one point of view is profoundly depressing, because it's bad enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 01:53 PM

Fionn says -

"As for Dave, I despair. Having tied himself in knots on the race thing, he keeps trying to turn it back on Cook's stupidity, as though slagging a politician will somehow make the peculiar line he is taking seem OK. The trouble is, that there was not a word of stupidity in anything Cook said. He did not say we British don't exist, so he is not in any sort of conflict with the census form, nor in conflict with anyone here, except Dave. He just said we are a collection of races, which we patently are. As far as I have seen, his speech seems to have been generally well received."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha. I laugh at your feeble attempt at argument. I have seen better attempts at logic from the illogical logistiands of Illogistia. Slagging off a polititian is ok. That is what they are paid for. If I cause any offence. Tough. It was my thread. Stop reading it if you don't like it. (ner-ner-ne-ne-ner...)

Love and kisses

DtG


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Subject: oh yes, malcolm...
From: cait
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 01:29 PM

i learned to be polite growing up, it took association with brits to understand racism within caucasian ehtnicity. with a firmly entrenched class system and the words 'frog', 'yank', 'wog' and such like emerging with frequency from britain's national publications and from the other side of your mouth (when not being bloody indignant) to show me the shades of racism that 'civilized' brits are capable of. your 'civility' is something of a farce, worn with indignation in face of criticism from without.

don't go on.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Caitrin
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 01:23 PM

And just on a side note...
Dave, we Bajorans think you ought to concentrate more on the Prophets than the profits.


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Subject: RE: BS: No such thing as British...
From: Caitrin
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 01:19 PM

I'm American (but most definitely not a Yankee! *grins*), so please forgive me if I end up saying something utterly foolish in my ignorance of British politics.
It seems to me that Mr. Cook was trying to make the point that Britain has a long history of immigration and will not be led to ruin by it now. He doesn't say that there is no such thing as "British", merely that "British" is not a race. It's not, nor are American, French, Italian, or Greek.
"Race" in a biological sense is meaningless. We're all the same species--"Negroid" and "Caucasoid" make no more difference to anything than "blue-eyed people" or "redheads" do to a biologist. Race is merely another physical characteristic.


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