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OK, Where's the Damn MELODY??
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Subject: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Apr 01 - 05:44 PM I confess. Though I learn new tunes by ear, and though I can also read a melody line, I cannot always figure out what the melody IS, either way. Usually it's a southern gospel or bluegrass gospel piece that vexes me. These are particularly difficult because my job is not only to sing them, and usually by myself, but to songlead them-- teach them. Teach the melody, from a songsheet without four parts for the people (and without anyone out there interested in part singing either). I am beginning to suspect that some songs from these genres are not made to have discernable melodies-- that the total effect of the harmonies is the point. Am I ever gonna figure these out so they will work, when they are built like that? Current problem child is Green Pastures. Emmylou and Ricky do not seem to agree with my Bluegrass Fakebook, and none of the "melodies" I hear among them seem to quite work. I suspect that if I had a better copy of them doing it, I might hear the line from the fakebook on one of the instruments, or it may be the baritone part of a four-part version. Do I just run these sorts of problems through my internal Folk Processor and make up my own version? Or do I leave these alone till I learn Emmylou's tricks for forming a band? *G* (*BG!*) It can be hard to learn from a mentor when you cannot rip them off the tape and shake them till they tell you their tricks! ~News to Me |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: mousethief Date: 20 Apr 01 - 05:49 PM It's always in the soprano section, unless it's being sung by the altos. Alex |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 01 - 05:55 PM I'm a soprano; we have the easy job, cos we usually get the melody - as Alex says, we occasionally let the altos sing a line or so of melody. |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:01 PM Great, now I need a clone too.
Oh a Stewie Stew-eye, uh, oh, can you hep me out! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: mousethief Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:02 PM Tenors NEVER get to sing melody. Baritones have to either squeak like a tenor or rumble like a bass; they never get their own section unless it's an all-male choir. Alex |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:08 PM Hello???? Southern Gospel???? Bluegrass??? Not talkin' CHOIRS. Duets, trios, quartets, bands... Not about choral music. Got that stuff whipped. These songs are their own kinda something, and someone knows what! I really wanted to do Green Pastures tomorrow night too. There are a whole BUNCH of these I wanted to do and never could figure out HOW to do them without everyone out front already knowing them. I'm gonna run away and join the Gaither Homecoming Hour any day now. This is what happens when you grow up without access to every kind of music there IS, and then try to learn it LATER. Aaaarrrrghhhhhhh!!!!!!!! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: mousethief Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:10 PM Hello???? Aaaarrrrghhhhhhh!!!!!!!! Okay, Susan. DEFINITELY time to switch to decaf. Alex |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: Burke Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:11 PM When learning a song by ear, we tend to focus in on the highest part being sung. I think with bluegrass in particular the high tenor part is a harmony part that's confusing your ear. In Sacred Harp & the other old harp books the tenor & treble cross frequently, but in general the melody is lower than the treble harmonies. I think our treble is similar to a high tenor. They can't really be learned from a recording by ear. Some of the original bluegrass singers came from that old book singing background & that may be where it comes from. To further confuse you, Emmylou & Ricky probably freely modify whatever the basic 'original' melody was to start with. You might want to try listening to other's versions & see how they compare. See if you can hear a sort of consensus tune. |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: mousethief Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:12 PM Look at the chords. If one part is constantly singing the 1-3-5 notes, it's probably not the melody part. Alex |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: mousethief Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:12 PM PS it's "damned." |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: Burke Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:16 PM Maybe after you've listened to some of my Sacred Harp stuff, with the book in hand, you can start to develop the 'ear' for the tunes. My ear for them is much better than it used to be, but I've never really tried the bluegrass. |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:25 PM DECAF? It's not decaffed? *G*G* Thanks Burke. I think you know what I mean-- what you describe sounds close. I know there is a term for this... now how do we find out more? This must be related to modes. I mean, it must get down to the roots of the music I am hearing now. The people who grow up singing this music don't have to think about it at all-- it is how they hear. Now I am having a CRS attack-- is this about polyphony? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: mousethief Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:28 PM If it was monophony you would know where the melody was, dear. |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:30 PM Wait-- one more clue then I gotta go. (I am sitting wet, in a towel, when I should be dressed and at a wedding rehearsal dinner!) It sounds like it might sound if Emmy and Ricky (our example) both know what the melody IS, and are hearing it to harmonize WITH, but they aren't telling US what it is, and we sort of absorb what it is supposed to be by the combination of the parts they are singing. Like when our choir director played two piano notes and we all heard a third note not even being played-- I think she said that the harmmonics of the two tones added up to an unplayed but hearable note. What are the WORDS for this??! Bye! Solve this while I am gone so I can learn the song for tomorrow PLEASE! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: mousethief Date: 20 Apr 01 - 06:37 PM In barbershop quartet harmony, it's called the "fifth tone" but I don't know if there's a technical name for it. Alex |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: ray bucknell Date: 20 Apr 01 - 08:07 PM This sounds like what Bob Gibson and Bob (Hamilton) Camp used to do. They'd sing a verse with one of them singing melody, then they'd both sing harmony parts and let the "shadow" melody exist in the ear of the audience. I don't know if Ricky and Emmylou are doing the same thing, but I wouldn't be surprised. Interesting to hear about the ear naturally picking up the high part; that's always been my issue with trying to learn melody lines. It gets especially interesting when they switch the melody to the tenor on the last verse. You hear it loud and clear, but you're not sure what it is... Ray |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Apr 01 - 09:27 PM yes yes yes!! Keep talking.... What makes this so wonderful, maddening as it is, is that these songs stick in our minds... I can hear them over and over again, each time hearing something new, and each time it ends, saying, "Huh! Wow... Now.... what wazzat again... Oh well! Hafta play it again... again..." But although these may be best suited for duet or group singing, I still want to pass them on to our people as best I can... and I think it means figuring out that central line I can take so the people can hear the harmonies in the chords and then choose for themselves what to sing... this is a thing humans have invented, so why not assume it can be re-invented fresh with new people? I think the melodies (or what I sing as the lead line) are made for harmony such that the people will sing harmonies whether they mean to or not. Maybe all I need to do is follow that instinct that poor Emmylou and Ricky have been waiting since 1980 for someone to catch the melody they heard and implied and pass it on. If I sing it like mine is the missing melody line, and "hear" them harmonizing to me, and if I encourage the people to harmonize... maybe that is the whole trick. So I drove home from the wedding rehearsal dinner (and a lovely time it was, very romantic) singing with those two as loud as I could, and they didn't mind a bit. And I think I know how I will do it tomorrow. Now to the autoharp. Keep talking about these shadow melodies. I need to know more. And thanks for putting up with me, guys. I get all lit over a piece and I just GOTTA DO IT. Every week it's a new adventure! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 20 Apr 01 - 10:23 PM Know the problem. Finally got to a unique book of the early 17th century in the Folger Shakespeare Library that had a tune I wanted. The music was around in a square so each singer of a quartet, arranged in a square (ancient method for good harmony), had his part in front of him. Parts weren't labeled and I couldn't figure out which the tenor part was. |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: RichM Date: 20 Apr 01 - 11:24 PM Shadow melody: That's 'Harvey'. When the Mamas and Papas were arranging the vocal parts of a song, they knew when they had the right harmony: a ghostly fifth harmony would rise up out of the blend of their voices. Listen for Harvey: when (s)he sings, ya know ya got it! |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: Ferrara Date: 21 Apr 01 - 12:36 AM Susan, I've felt the same frustration with bluegrass songs lots of times. With a lot of oldtimers, the strongest voice may not be on the melody line. Or you get four equally balanced voices. It happens with folksingers too. There was a recording of the Copper Family's song, "Rose of Allendale," that was based entirely on a harmony line, the performers had taken it for the melody. By now so many people have probably learned it like that, that it's an official "variant" of the song! Rita |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: mousethief Date: 21 Apr 01 - 12:43 AM Okay, I know it's a "harmonic," and an "overtone," but that's the most I can nomenclate. It's a harmonic of both (or all) voices which is reinforced by the effect of the multiple voices. Shore do know it when I hear it, though -- and it's a wonderful thing! Alex |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 21 Apr 01 - 01:05 AM OK, singers, go find some pickers who know about this: Mountain Modal Tuning? Hardi and I were talking, and I described all of the above as well as I could, and he is so classically trained I was sure he would not GET it. BUT he had read in an old banjo book about MM tuning, and it sounds like a big part of this... a sharped third. Which may be why the melody in my fake book does not quite work as sung by the dots. Its chords also do not work as accompaniment to Emmy and Ricky (who BTW moved into my head for a couple of hours...) beacaue El Senor Rickee, who sings a stronger and possible melody line on the tape, is sharping or flatting something that reads as natural by the dots. SO! I bet the chords would work fine for the piece as done bluegreass style, because all the players would know to tune to the MM tuning! Ah HAHH! I tinkin' the dots are wrong-- the transcriber went by key signature with no reference to mode, and some of those notes shouldda been sharped! I WILL figure this out! This would be why, to play accompaniment for what I decided would be a fair lead-line to strike, some of those chords had to change as I worked through the arrangement. Becaause I only have standard autoharp chords-- can't really retune into MM tuning, see. The notes I wanted to hear in the chord were not the dots on the page-- for instance, the chord shown called for a chord including an F.... I was hearing what turned out to be an F#, so I chose a chord with it. This has got to be related to blues harmonica cross-harping. Here's how I know. So funny. I wanted Hardi to fiddle like a bluegreass boy, so I bought him a Vassar Clemens CD and book. Way too fast and impossible to catch what he's doing! BUT I also had bought him a book and CD of BLUES fiddle... and ya know what? The two CDs sounded EXACTLY the same, except the blues CD was all slowed down! All he has to do is study with that till he has facility, then speed it up, and BOOM! Bluegrass Boy! I am sure "everyone" else knows ALL THESE THINGS but sheeshe-- I gotta work it out as I go. Music forensic science. Analyze trace evidence! And thanks to all those who validated my ear and head-- I knew I wasn't going crazy but I was sure the rest of you would think so! More? More please? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: Stewie Date: 21 Apr 01 - 02:09 AM Hi Susan, I am the last person on earth to ask about this stuff. I've been involved with bluegrass gospel presentations, but Tony from Darwin and others always worked out the parts. However, I do have a suggestion for you. You must know someone who has a copy of Emmylou's 'Spyboy' album. She does 'Green Pastures' on that and sings some of the verses solo. I could send you a tape, but you need it quickly. I had a listen to some of the sound clips at the Net stores, but they are pretty short and feature duo singing. --Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: GUEST,Sam Pirt Date: 21 Apr 01 - 05:36 AM Its simple really, sing the part or line you think fits and if you want to change it do, folk music is not static and it is the little changes that over time keep folk music moveing. Do with the melody what you want, its your interprtation of the song so make it your own. Cheers, Sam |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: Jeri Date: 21 Apr 01 - 07:24 AM What Sam said and Ferrara said. I had the problem when I tried to learn songs the Watersons and Coppers do. I'd think I had the tune in my head, but when I tried to sing it, I had to pick ONE note to sing, not several. I think it's why some tune variants happen - people choose a bit of the melody and a bit of a harmony for the basic line. It's OK - it's all good, because it fits together. It's possible the singers cross over, and neither one sings strictly melody or harmony - they trade off on the melody. Maybe if you look at things backwards, it will work better. Try picking out the harmonies, and maybe the melody will show itself. If you come up with something that isn't the melody they intended to be heard, but sounds good... |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 21 Apr 01 - 08:47 AM ALL helpful, especially you, Stewie! I'd love to hear the Spyboy version, and time is not a factor. Anyone have it who is coming to the Gathering next weekend? If not, Stewie, I would love a copy and I will be in touch. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 21 Apr 01 - 11:03 AM To go back to the original query, "Where's the melody," it is good to be aware that in really old music (medieval, say) the melody was usually in the tenor line. "Tenor" means "holder", I've been told, and it was the tenors' job to hold down the melody. I suppose they did it that way because boy sopranos don't last nearly as long as tenors. Recently our choir did a shape-note song, "Shepherds, Rejoice" where the melody was in the tenor line. So the convention did not die out completely with the middle ages. |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie) Date: 21 Apr 01 - 06:37 PM Shadow-Schmadow... A melody is a melody, but what one does with it is one's own "interpretation," I guess. On her "Blue Kentucky Girl" album, Emmy started off with the melody for my song, "Sorrow in the Wind." In the second or third verse (forget which), she sings the straight alto line, and since her voice is mixed to sound out above the others, it becomes "melody," for that verse. Nothing wrong with it, but I can see, if you're teaching it to others, it would throw you off, Wysiwyg. I guess that the lesson is, first learn the tune right, then do what you will with it, for your own enjoyment. Jean |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: catspaw49 Date: 21 Apr 01 - 07:44 PM Well.......I wrote some of this in a PM to Susan, but what the hell, y'all can take it for what it's worth.........Yeah, I know...Not much. Emmylou is a tremendous "student" of country music and when she applies what she has learned from her "roots" people, I can understand how Susan can have a hard time picking out what's what. The fact that she herself is a terrific harmony singer makes it even more difficult (such as Jean pointed out above). With Ricky Skaggs, also a fine student and with similar taste and harmony ability, it can get pretty strange........Don't get me wrong, it is just beautiful as far as I'm concerned, but it's basis is the key to hearing what's happening. Those "roots" to her are often from two sources.......well, two main sources and hundreds of others. First, on a lot of songs you cannot miss the Bill Monroe influence.....it's obvious, and she is a great admirer. The other harmony sound that really embodies that "Where is the melody" thing comes from Buck Owens and his great harmony partner of many years, Don Rich. Owens never "had it" again after Rich was killed. If you listen to a steady diet of Owens/Rich and then to Emmylou, the whole thing becomes more obvious as she swaps back and forth. And don't forget that her first mentor, Gram Parsons was a big Owens fan. If you aren't used to listening to the Owens/Rich sound then "Where is the melody?" becomes a good question. If you're tuned into what they did, it's a lot easier. My 2 cents.......... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 21 Apr 01 - 09:30 PM This is all so helpful. I am glad I asked. You all have lovely views of the things I am hearing, and I think when my fantasy band pulls into town I will be ready to stow away and never come back! The Mountain Modal Tuning thread has some good stuff too, that I think will relate. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: 53 Date: 21 Apr 01 - 09:41 PM Susan, You can find the song on Napster. I haven't downloaded it but I did check and there are several copies of it there. Good luck with the melody line on that one. I wish I could be more help. RM |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 21 Apr 01 - 09:50 PM Aw gee, I forgot to tell you all-- no sound on this computer, at all. Believe me, if I could find and hear all this, I would! We are still hoping to replace it but the fire insurance claim is bogged down. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: 53 Date: 21 Apr 01 - 09:56 PM Sorry about that poor piece of luck. Just left you a PM also. RM |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: pattyClink Date: 21 Apr 01 - 11:04 PM This is a longshot, but...I sing in four-part groups, and in a lot of our music, the 'lead' briefly passes from the lead to the baritone for a few measures and then goes back. When that happens, it's often notated with a dashed line angled down to the baritone line. If you have any sheet music for these pieces, that might show up... I've sung and heard harmonies all my life, but only doing a lot of baritone work do you become aware how constantly the harmony (baritone) voice wanders above and below the lead voice within most songs. If there's a high harmony (tenor or descant) it can do the same thing, dipping down under the lead. I'm sure this is elementary to you and most of the 'pro's around here, but it helps my listening to be aware that even within one phrase a voice can move up and down across the lead, so it does no good trying to follow 'the highest' or the 'low' voice around, and maybe that's making it hard to hear the lead. You're right, I think it's a deliberate effect to fuse the voices together. You can make the lead stand out, or you can balance the other parts so they merge. I have a feeling those family groups people think have such magic close harmonies are doing this, and the timbre of their voices matching so well makes the effect even more strong. |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 22 Apr 01 - 12:30 AM You should each read your own posts here with the same bated breath as me-- in every one of your posts, I am just right there with you as you describe so clearly how you experience the music we are talking about. And I get to the bottom of each post and then frown because there isn't even more! Every one of these posts has been so clear and helpful-- every one of you is doing a bang-up job in this thread, and I thank you for it. So say on! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie) Date: 22 Apr 01 - 04:51 PM Sometimes it's a matter of vocal range (has this been said already?)- this is from personal experience. When recording, "Too Many Shadows"(album, None But One)instruments had begun to play, the tape was rolling, and I realized that in the key chosen, I would NOT be able to get the low note in the chorus-Bright sunshine gladdened all our WAYS- so whispered to son Peter,(bass), "Take that line with the low note!" He did, and I sang something higher, and I don't suppose anyone now actually knows that they're not hearing my "melody" right. |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 22 Apr 01 - 07:03 PM Oh yes, me too! Absolvo te! *G* ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: GUEST,Russ Date: 23 Apr 01 - 01:23 PM Simple question, complex problem. First, by "the melody" do you mean 1)the sequence of notes that Ricky and Emmylou think of as the melody or 2)the sequence of notes which the author intended to be the melody. The two can be quite different. As for 1, with singers of the caliber of Ricky and Emmylou it can sometimes be literally impossible to figure out what they are singing as the melody simply by listening to their version of the song. There are some loose "rules" for the sort of harmony they are singing, but singers at their level don't follow them slavishly and they like to play around. They'll swap verse and harmony within the same verse, maybe the same line. It can often be helpful to try to figure out what their source is and go listen to it. Sometimes it can help to listen to different versions of the song by different people to get a "feel" for the song and the possibilities for variation. Unfortunately (fortunately?) when a song enters the tradition it is not unusual to have several significantly different but equally "valid" versions develop. As for 2, try to find the original written/published source. If you cannot find that, try to find someone who claims to be doing the original version. |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: RichM Date: 24 Apr 01 - 05:14 AM Overtones, Harmonics, "Harvey". I suspect that when two or more harmonies are very tight, ie, doing exactly the correct interval(s), they generate precise overtones that are pleasing to hear. The result: a ghostly additional harmony.
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: Geoff the Duck Date: 24 Apr 01 - 09:43 AM The best advice would seem to be "Make up your own version of the melody line (une which fits what you hear)" then teach that and if enough people learn it from you it will become the official one. The same works with lyrics - when the Fureys sang Eric Bogle's "Green Fields of France" they got the words wrong (or changed some). Since then there are a large number of singers who only use the version they have heard by the Fureys, some would probably tell Eric Bogle that he sings it wrong! Quack! GtD |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:25 AM I guess we will find out Saturday night. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: radriano Date: 25 Apr 01 - 11:45 AM I haven't listened much to country and bluegrass but I used to sing in a band that did traditional & contemporary songs of Ireland, Scotland, and England. We were especially known for three-part harmony. When we sang three-part we wanted all levels equal so that the melody didn't stick out over the harmony and our hamonies didn't follow standard conventions, that is, you often couldn't tell where one part left off and another started. It make picking out the melody harder but the result was a sound that featured not just a lead singer but three singers singing together equally. |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 04 May 01 - 02:44 AM FOUND IT. And then Pete Peterson arrived at our Mudcat Gathering and he had it too! We song-led it (Pete, Burke, Little Hawk, Hardi, me) as the opening hymn at the Sat. night service during the Gathering last weekend. I sang lead! Swooooooonnnn..... ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: Jande Date: 04 May 01 - 03:37 PM Oh, Susan! By the end of this thread (so far)I had tears in my eyes. Your joyful enthusiasm, even your frustration, had me glued to the thread. What a gift this one is! What a gift you are! ~ Jande |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: Jande Date: 04 May 01 - 03:58 PM Oh, Susan! By the end of this thread (so far)I had tears in my eyes. Your joyful enthusiasm, even your frustration, had me glued to the thread. ~ Jande |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 04 May 01 - 04:20 PM Jande, come sing with me.... I think I heard you on a CD hesperis had here... come... come... come... *G* I been thinking about a thread about thatr overwhelming need to get a piece through oneself and OUT there. Maybe I start it today... See ya there I hope! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: Jande Date: 04 May 01 - 05:31 PM Susan, I'd love to! I'm singing right now! Are ya with me? Oops! Where'd the Lyrics sheets go?? Yes, Hes had 3 or four of my songs on the CD she took with her: Goddess In Me, Circus, Slow Now... Can't remember if Running From The Shadows was on there, too. Your new idea sounds definitely like a good thread. I will look in on it for sure... ~ Jande
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 04 May 01 - 05:38 PM Jande... I'm calling you... Jande... JANDE.... come... COME.... sing with me..... *G* ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: Jande Date: 04 May 01 - 06:35 PM LOL! |
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Subject: RE: OK, Where's the Damn MELODY?? From: wysiwyg Date: 05 May 01 - 04:08 AM [growlie voice] .... bring it ON, baby! Hey Jande, do you know "Green Pastures"? ~S~ |
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