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Where is 'Caucasia'?

GUEST,Frogmore 21 Apr 01 - 04:00 PM
GUEST 21 Apr 01 - 04:09 PM
ollaimh 21 Apr 01 - 04:22 PM
Chicken Charlie 21 Apr 01 - 04:54 PM
Lepus Rex 21 Apr 01 - 06:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Apr 01 - 08:00 PM
Allan C. 21 Apr 01 - 10:00 PM
Charlie Baum 22 Apr 01 - 01:31 AM
Terry K 22 Apr 01 - 01:39 AM
GUEST,khandu 22 Apr 01 - 01:52 AM
M.Ted 22 Apr 01 - 02:13 AM
Roughyed 22 Apr 01 - 04:29 AM
lady penelope 22 Apr 01 - 04:32 AM
Manitas 22 Apr 01 - 05:24 AM
Uncle_DaveO 22 Apr 01 - 11:20 AM
Stewart 22 Apr 01 - 04:09 PM
Blackcatter 22 Apr 01 - 04:15 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 22 Apr 01 - 07:51 PM
Haruo 22 Apr 01 - 09:09 PM
wysiwyg 22 Apr 01 - 10:34 PM
paddymac 23 Apr 01 - 12:55 AM
mousethief 23 Apr 01 - 01:16 AM
mousethief 23 Apr 01 - 01:17 AM
Sorcha 23 Apr 01 - 01:38 AM
mousethief 23 Apr 01 - 12:42 PM
M.Ted 23 Apr 01 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,petr 23 Apr 01 - 03:49 PM
Sorcha 23 Apr 01 - 04:14 PM
mousethief 23 Apr 01 - 04:31 PM
GUEST,Juy Predmore 23 Apr 01 - 10:15 PM
GUEST,dusty m 23 Apr 01 - 10:59 PM
mousethief 24 Apr 01 - 12:44 AM
Orac 24 Apr 01 - 07:22 AM
Orac 24 Apr 01 - 07:28 AM
GUEST,in room 325 of the Motel 6 24 Apr 01 - 10:55 AM
mousethief 24 Apr 01 - 11:11 AM
Mrrzy 24 Apr 01 - 11:13 AM
First Amendment 24 Apr 01 - 11:39 AM
mousethief 24 Apr 01 - 11:43 AM
First Amendment 24 Apr 01 - 11:51 AM
harpmolly 24 Apr 01 - 12:52 PM
harpmolly 24 Apr 01 - 12:58 PM
SINSULL 24 Apr 01 - 01:05 PM
mousethief 24 Apr 01 - 01:09 PM
SINSULL 24 Apr 01 - 01:37 PM
mousethief 24 Apr 01 - 02:05 PM
Bernard 24 Apr 01 - 04:33 PM
Kim C 24 Apr 01 - 06:01 PM
Frogmore 24 Apr 01 - 06:44 PM
Chicken Charlie 24 Apr 01 - 06:48 PM
GUEST,dusty m 24 Apr 01 - 07:45 PM
Mrrzy 25 Apr 01 - 12:37 PM
Haruo 25 Apr 01 - 08:01 PM
GUEST,Frogmore 25 Apr 01 - 10:03 PM
mousethief 26 Apr 01 - 12:33 AM
Kim C 26 Apr 01 - 02:34 PM
Mrrzy 27 Apr 01 - 01:01 PM
mousethief 27 Apr 01 - 01:53 PM
Kim C 27 Apr 01 - 03:32 PM
mousethief 27 Apr 01 - 03:35 PM
Kim C 27 Apr 01 - 03:56 PM
mousethief 27 Apr 01 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,in room 325 of the Motel 6 27 Apr 01 - 05:12 PM
Kim C 27 Apr 01 - 05:35 PM
mousethief 27 Apr 01 - 05:37 PM
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Subject: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: GUEST,Frogmore
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 04:00 PM

They tell me I'm a "Caucasian" but I've searched my atlas and spun my globe and I can't find my homeland. Where is "Caucasia"?


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 04:09 PM

Caucasia is the area of Washington state, not too far from Seattle, that includes Sumner.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: ollaimh
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 04:22 PM

this is an old term. it was once thought that the indoeuropeans--and possibly most of the other "white races" came from the caucasus mountains region. the present states there are georgia, armenia, and ajzerbajan.

few archeologists now claim to be able to identify an exact origional home land but the term from the 19th century stuck.

it is quite possible that there was an origional indoeuropean homeland and if you are interested in the debate you could look at e.p. mallory's book "the indoeuropeans" which lays out the evolution of the argument. colin renfrew has also written extensively on the topic.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 04:54 PM

Seriously [?!] Caucasia would be the area in the Caucasus Mts. The languages spoken there would be called "Caucasian" in the linguistic, as opposed to the racial, sense--Georgian is one. Linguistic "Caucasian" is a subdivision of "Indo-European." That all sort of academic, since that's not the same as "Caucasian" used in the ordinary racial sense, as a synonym for 'white.' I can't remember the taxonomical details, but endorse Colin Renfrew as a good, reliable source. Another is Colin McEvedy, "Penguin Atlas of the Ancient World." Used copies at abebooks.com. Not overwrought with baroque details; at-a-glance type stuff.

CC


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 06:29 PM

Well, actually, the two families of Caucasian languages (North Caucasian, like Chechen, Avar, Abkhaz, etc. and South Caucasian, like Georgian, Mingrelian, Svanetian, etc.) aren't Indo-European languages at all, although there are plenty of Indo-European languages in the Caucasus, such as Armenian, Kurdish, Ossetian, Russian, etc. But, like I said, unrelated. OK, running late, so I'll shut up now. ;)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 08:00 PM

that's not the same as "Caucasian" used in the ordinary racial sense, as a synonym for 'white.

Outside the United States I don't think you'd find many people who'd see that as the "ordinary" term to use. It sounds about as weird as referring to anyone who is blackish as "Ethiopian".

Americans seem to go in for so much soul-searching about the use of language - and yet this bizarre genuflection in the direction of 19th century racist pseudo-science seems to pass unchallenged.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Allan C.
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 10:00 PM

Well, this is all news to me. I had thought Caucasia was somewhere near Etruscia.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 01:31 AM

Whenever I want to bother people or avoid jury duty, I let slip that I'm into Caucasian Studies and let people misinterpret it the way they usually do. They turn away, thinking I'm some sort of racist into "White Studies."

Actually, Caucasian Studies is defined as the study of the areas of Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, and the southern areas of Russia, including Circassia, Ingushetia, Chechenya, and Dagestan. The countries/regions involved have radiacally different languages, religious backgrounds, and social structures, but they are united by contiguous geography and an interlinked history. (My particular interest is in Caucasian music and its related cultures.)

Georgian is the main branch of a language family usually called "Kartvelian" rather than "Caucasian." Linguistically, the language family is divided into North and South, and includes dialects/languages such as Nakh-Daghestani, Mingerlian, and Svan, among others. (I won't get into the distinctions and controversies about the differences between languages and dialects and whether any of the above qualify as one or the other.) It is written in the Georgian alphabet, which contains 38 letters (33 used in modern Georgian, a couple of extra ones still in use in Svan, and 3 more historical letters that have slipped out of present-day use).

Armenian is considered a Finno-Ugric language. It is written in Armenian script, which was created (at least in legend) by St. Mesrop, who also designed the Georgian alphabet. But the Georgian alphabet changed radically about a millennium or so ago and today, Armenian and Georgian look very different, even to an inexperienced eye.

Also widely spoken in the region are Azerbaijani, which is a Turkic language (or dialect of Turkish, with Persian/Farsi influences), and Russian (a Slavic language, imported from the North). Russian is written in Cyrillic script. Azerbaijani was written in Arabic script before 1922, in Roman script from 1922-1930 something, in Cyrillic (with a few extra letters grabbed from the Roman alphabet until the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, and in any and all of the above since then (as different political alliances battle it out).

No one in the area would use Caucasian as a nationality identity marker, however.

--Charlie Baum


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Terry K
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 01:39 AM

"......Caucasian ......as a synonym for White"

- try telling that to the whole of the Indian sub-continent.

Cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: GUEST,khandu
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 01:52 AM

Mississippi


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 02:13 AM

Charlie,

I thought that Armenian was in the Indo-European family, as opposed to a Finno-Ugric language(which are Uralic rather than Indo-European). At any rate, the Armenians were settled many centuries before the Magyars came from the East.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Roughyed
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 04:29 AM

Phew


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: lady penelope
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 04:32 AM

Look it's far too early on sunday morning for all this, will you go back to bed or do something that hurts my head less, please.

TTFN M'Lady P.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Manitas
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 05:24 AM

An interesting comment there that "White Studies" might be considered racist. Would anyone consider that Black Studies are racist?


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 11:20 AM

Yes, often.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Stewart
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 04:09 PM

In 1965 I moved from California to Dallas, Texas. Since my CA drivers license had expired I applied for a Texas license. I dutifuly filled out the form, and where it asked "race?" I (as an overeducated academic) wrote C for Caucasian. I still remember the dirty look of the clerk as he crossed out the C and wrote W.

Cheers, S. in Seattle


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 04:15 PM

What this discussion proves is that it is nearly impossible to define groups of humans - we all inter-relate in far too many ways.

One interesting example of this it the U.S. Census attempt to count "Hispanics." While it is useful to do so, because there are certain cultural links, that is about as far as it goes. Basically, the U.S. Census considers anyone who is willing to say they are Hispanic to be Hispanic, but the general delimiters are that an individual either came from, or is a direct descendant of someone who came from a "Latin" country. Those countries generally being those in Central and South America and parts of the West Indies such as Puerto Rico, Cuba, the Dominican Republic.

The general reason that these countries are "Latin" is that they were settled primarily by the Spanish and Portuguese but then again, people directly from Spain and Portugal or from thier former colonies in Africa and Oceania are not genreally considered Hispanic.

It is more a cultural identity for a Hispanic person can be racially African, European or American Indian or a mixture - and actually one could be even Asian - such as the Japanese community in Peru (remember the most recent presidient of Peru was named Fujimori).

Just an intersting side-light - and it was off the top of my head, though I have written a recent article on the subject.

By the way, When asked, I usually put down that I am a Eskimo or Aleut (though I am of English & German extraction) - I do this because I think the world could do with a few more Aleuts.

pax yall


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 07:51 PM

McGrath, Caucasian certainly has wide and official currency in the UK, rightly or wrongly. As in the standard police classifications, in which IC = indigenous caucasian.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 09:09 PM

M Ted, you and Lepus Rex are right, Armenian is Indo-European (aka Aryan!), not Finno-Ugric as Charlie B intimated.

For those who think "Caucasian" is misleading and "Aryan" and "White" are both misleading and potentially inflammatory, how about calling us palefaces "Japhetes", i.e. members of the "Japhetic race(s)" as distinct from the Semitic races (Jews, Arabs, Moabites and Idumaeans, e.g.) and the Hamitic races (the darker folk). "Japhetes" has the advantage of obscurity; nobody knows what it means so they don't realize they should be offended.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Apr 01 - 10:34 PM

Hi Liland, where ya been?

I remember my History of World Civ classes. In the time I was in them, it was being taught that we identified people and cultures according to the language groups from which they had sprung. This was because color was being totally ignored then, in USA mainstream culture. Africa was that "dark continent of mystery," anyway, then.

So I can see how an identification with language groupings could have become the norm for the people perceiving themselves as "white." After all, the "African Americans" we know now were not always called "blacks" before they were called blacks-- they were called "negroes," "colored," etc..

In other words, there used to be identifiers other than country of ancestral origin or skin color.

And in the Bible, yes, people of dark skin WERE called Ethiopians, whether they were from Ethiopia or not.

But so what... why not just agree that language has been used often to create both rallying points and divisions, both pride and prejudice, and let it go at that.

Do any of us really need a fresh opportunity to claim special victimhood status on one ground or another? I mean, is it worth the $5 fine for whining to point out there is something unfair going on? You aren't caught up in current (newfangled and groundless) cultural expectations of fairness, are ya? If you know an injustice, hey, then sure, take some ACTION about it, but picking apart this batch of stuff to find a way to be the victim does not suit people of sense and reason.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: paddymac
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 12:55 AM

Don't know that I should say this thread has fallen victim (sorry, i couldn't pass it by) to thread creep, but is surely seems to have "spread" beyond the initial interrogatory. That said, there is much to ruminate about already entered into the file.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 01:16 AM

Blackcatter:

What this discussion proves is that it is nearly impossible to define groups of humans

Or that it's far too easy to define groups of humans.

But whether or not it's a good idea, people will continue to think of themselves -- and others -- as members of groups. The borders may be fuzzy, the uses made of the groups may be horrible, but categorizing will be with us forever, I'm afraid. It's part of what makes language possible. Any time you use a noun or an adjective, you create a group. You might even say groupifying is an identifying mark of human beings.

What is needed is a way to ensure that in our groupifying, we don't end up treating some groups (of human beings) as worthy of human dignity, civil rights, etc., than others.

IMHO of course.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 01:17 AM

Sorry, last sentence should read, "What is needed is a way to ensure that in our groupifying, we don't end up treating some groups (of human beings) as LESS worthy of human dignity, civil rights, etc., than others."

Stupid fingers.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 01:38 AM

Oh good grief, Charlie Brown.

Having said that, and asking you to play nice, I will say, that IM(ns)HO that Language is a much better indicator of where peoples came from ( and who they are) than skin color........

And, other than Anthropologic ethnologists and linguists, WHO CARES ANYWAY???

Does it have a direct influence on YOUR life? Not mine! Does your daughter want to marry a man whose skin is darker than yours, or who speaks a different language than you? SO?..........Your point is? Your Grand babies will not look like you???

I would like to know just why we have to "group-ify" any indivduals within a population anyway. We (humans) don't in any other species......if they reproduce offspring, they are considered biologically in the same family.......

Canis, Ursis, Felis, Whazoo.......this did not start out to be a "racist" thread, but it seems to have been turned into one.......and if that is my fault, I apologize. It just seemed to be where it was leading........


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 12:42 PM

I would like to know just why we have to "group-ify" any indivduals within a population anyway. We (humans) don't in any other species

Hooey! Ever hear of "breeds" of dogs? They're all the same species.

We don't "Have to" -- we just do. It's the human in us. So sue us.

ALex


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 01:33 PM

Listening to a Washington, DC RB/Talk drive time this AM, and heard a caller discussing a confrontation she'd had with a "caucasian woman"--to those white folks who wonder if blacks have derogatory names for them, well, maybe, but, they don't need them, "caucasian" properly used, will do all the work--


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 03:49 PM

blackcatter the term eskimo is not used anymore (originally it was an name given to them by their native neighbours south of them and it meant "eaters of raw meat" (I believe) they now call themselves Inuit which just means "the people" cheers petr.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 04:14 PM

OK, Alex, you got me on that one..........didn't think about it in quite that way.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 04:31 PM

All I'm sayin, Sorcha, is that we should give up on beating people up because they groupify, because let's face it, groupfying is as human as ... well, it's very human. Instead let's talk about the implications of groupification, and why it's WRONG WRONG WRONG to treat people differently because of what group they're in*.

Alex

*TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN (not Sorcha): No, I don't mean it's wrong to speak different languages, nor to feed people what they like to eat, or let them wear the clothes they find comfortable. If you were about to argue with me on this point, Get real. Get a life. Or just drop dead. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: GUEST,Juy Predmore
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 10:15 PM

Well, having just filled out some job applications, including some special equal opportunity forms, I once again wondered what the heck Caucasian meant. I still don't know, but I know alot more than I did before, & I don't care if I ever have a definitive answer. But I'll be less puzzled next time I fill out a form that asks my race. So I've enjoyed this thread. Thanks for sharing all of your knowledge, even if imperfect. It's food for thought, & makes me feel a little less clueless.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: GUEST,dusty m
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 10:59 PM

Caucasus Mtn.s, again. ever hear of the "ten lost tribes"? That's where we..., 'r 'scuse me, THEY went to escape Isreal's 2nd bondage (unless yer into that) by the waters of Babylon. The straggelers & those that returned to the Nothern Kingdom were called 'Samaritans'. 'K' & 'S' are often confused in cross language exchange, (eg. 'Melley Kelikimaka'). it's from the name 'Kummer' one of they're kings. he's in the Old Testiment, but we couldn't have no Kummeri'ans in the Bible, now, could we? anyway, the rest of u.., i mean 'THEM' headed west out of the Caucasus & just kept going. i think they liked to settle in places with names like 'Cimmeron' but that's a bit 'if'y.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:44 AM

I thought the 10 lost tribes of Israel went to Patagonia? Or was it England? Oh hell, maybe they're still lost.

This wouldn't have anything to do with Area 51, would it?

Alex


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Orac
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 07:22 AM

Is it Ok to say "Honkey" for racial group?


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Orac
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 07:28 AM

Maybe Caucasia is where Morris Dancers come from.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: GUEST,in room 325 of the Motel 6
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 10:55 AM

In another thread on April 19, Alex/Mousethief, the self-proclaimed, "white male...Christian," said, and I quote, "I'm no Jew."

On April 23, in this thread, he said, "If you were about to argue with me on this point, Get real. Get a life. Or just drop dead. Thanks."

Based on the things he says, I'll concede that he is most certainly a "white male." However, Christians do not tell people with whom they disagree to "drop dead."

Alex/Mousethief is a liar when he proclaims himself to be a "Christian."


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:11 AM

They're baaaaaaaack.....


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:13 AM

Hamitic etc - too Biblical for me. Also, Ethiopian USED to be the term for black - see the Just So Stories, How the Leopard Got Its Spots, for instance. Just a few comments on prior posts. I find this very interesting, and I do agree with some that "groupifying" is very, very human. Actually, it's very, very mammalian - think of prairie dog colonies, territoriality, etc - all mammalian tendencies (hey, think about ants! Maybe it's just "all social animals") to distinguish between ingroup (you and your fillintheblanks = We) and outgroup (They). Nothing inherently wrong with it - nor is there anything inherently wrong with treating members of different groups differently. That is common sense, you don't relate to your children the way you do to your parents, of course, come on! The trick is in not ASSUMING anything about INDIVIDUALS based SOLELY on their group membership. That is, meeting a new child should not raise your "children should be seen and not heard" hackles till you find out if THIS individual child can speak politely in company and has anything interesting to say.

Besides, people ARE different, and that's why I like having them around. Wouldn't it be boring if children/blacks/men/straights WERE just like parents/whites/women/gays, instead of just having the same humanity? Can't they be entitled to the same rights and privileges without having to be treated the same in ways that have nothing to do with the legal system? For instance, say I'm heterosexual. That doesn't make me SEXIST for excluding all same-sex individuals from my bed! Now, were I to assume that anyone of my gender is no fun to be with even out of bed, THAT would be sexist.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: First Amendment
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:39 AM

To the Guest in Room 325 of the Motel 6:

While you are correct in your evaluation of Alex/Mousethief, it is my duty to defend his right to lie and to hate monger. This is America, we have a constitution and Alex/Mousethief has the constitutional right to his opinions, however hateful he, or his opinions, may be.

First Amendment


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:43 AM

When have I ever hate-mongered? First Amendment, whoever the hell you are, you are a liar and a coward.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: First Amendment
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:51 AM

When Alex/Mousethief calls me "a liar and a coward," he is calling the Constitution of the United States of America a liar and a coward.

However, it is my duty to protect Alex/Mousethief's right to call the Constitution of the United States of America "a liar and a coward."

First Amendment


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: harpmolly
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:52 PM

F.A.: Amusing to hear you accuse someone of hatemongering in such a self-righteous, self-aggrandized tone. How dare you presume to speak for the Constitution? Are you a Supreme Court Judge? Unless you've been vested with that authority, then I suggest you SHUT THE HELL UP.

You give our most precious Constitutional Amendment a bad name. And I, for one, don't fucking appreciate it.

Molly

(who's already had to deal with this kind of shit at work this week, and doesn't propose to put up with it quietly anymore).


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: harpmolly
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:58 PM

Sorry for losing my temper. I've just had to deal with the P.C. police one too many times this week.

I'm all for the First Amendment (the document, not the obnoxious arrogant troll). And I suppose that it isn't exempt from being twisted and used against its own purpose. But I don't have to like it.

Moll


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 01:05 PM

"I would like to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony"
Make nice children.
And FA - I agree with Miss Molly "Shut the hell up!"

As for mousethief - look what they have made me go and do! I am forced to defend you! And we have such lovely quarrels...


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 01:09 PM

We can still have lovely quarrels, Sins. What shall we argue about next?

Alex


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 01:37 PM

How about how many "R"s in quarrels - it's been a slow day.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 02:05 PM

I say there's just two, sirrah! And I shall beat thee into a clamorous whining if thou deniest the least syllable of my addition! Have at you, then!


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Bernard
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 04:33 PM

Try here


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 06:01 PM

I thought "C" stood for Cracker...


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Frogmore
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 06:44 PM

Gosh, As a new Mudcat clicker, I just thought I'd throw something out there to follow it's reactions. Never thought I'd kick up this much emotion. Thanks for the entertainment. PS: In the part of the South where I grew up white boys like me were called "buckra" by the dominant minority. While traveling in West Africa in the early 70s I was called "yovo" and "bruni" in two different languages. Hope that doesn't bother anyone.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 06:48 PM

Frogmore--If we look hard enough, we will find someone ready to be vicariously victimized by the usage of those terms, but let's not.

The rest of you guys put Mousethief down now, and leave the thread. I must not be the only one who forgot his meds today.

CC


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: GUEST,dusty m
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 07:45 PM

lovely rant, this. flew a little to close to the flame, (ouch). i'll visit you all again by another name, in another thead. bye


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 12:37 PM

oy vey, all. For crying out loud and other things. Mousethief is a sweetie, so there, and so is the First Amendment, who didn't offend me, but then again I remembered MY meds... and when I was in West Africa (60's and 70's), I was called (as were all whites) tubabu, which means white MAN, not white person. Not to be confuse with tubab, which means Doctor, again whether male or female. Frogmore, where were you and why? And what language were those terms in? I really only heard tubabu, which is either Dioula or Bambara, depending on the theorist. (FYI in case, Dioula is the lingua franca of West Africa, the language natives use to communicate with other natives not of their tribe. The colonial French didn't really replace that, although I think it tried.)


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Haruo
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 08:01 PM

Mrrzy, I think there are parts of WA where Fula(ni) and other languages play the role of lingue franche [that's a plural, not a typo, folks]. Incidentally, to complete the thread creep away from the caucasoid, about two weeks ago on the bus (in Seattle) I was listening to a couple of what looked like perfectly normal American young ladies of African extraction speaking some other language. I could tell it wasn't Swahili and I was pretty sure it wasn't Haitian, so I got up the courage to ask and found out they were both from the Gambia and were speaking Mandinke (which, I'd hazard a guess, is another word for Bambara and Dioula?). Small world. (Small country, too, for that matter. They were surprised I'd ever heard of it.)

Liland
(ninafahamu Kiswahili, walakini sifahamu Kimandinke)


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: GUEST,Frogmore
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 10:03 PM

Liland, I was in: Senegal, Mali, Haute Volta, Ghana, Togo, Dahomey, Nigeria, Niger, and back to Europe through the Sahara through Algeria. The words I mentioned were spoken by tribes in Ghana and Togo and I was never offended. They are WORDS. Words are useful, nothing more. There are MANY languages in West Africa. I use many words but omit ones I think might be offensive. "Sticks and stones....." Oh, "why was I there?" Simply because I was young and curious. Still curious too. This is fun.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:33 AM

Call me what you will, but please don't call me "Late For Supper."

I always thought that was a stupid name.

Alex
Part Blackfoot and not ashamed of that either.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:34 PM

Can I call you Shirley instead? :-D


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 01:01 PM

Yeah, it was Haute Volta back there. To continue this particular aside, I believe Mandinke is a language that is particular to the Mandinke people, whereas Dioula is not particular to any tribe (which was the PC term, at the time). Dioula is very very close to Bambara, which is a particular tribe's language. My only brush with the Swahili family came from linguistics classes, so I recognize your noun class markers, Liland, have you read "Women, Fire and Dangerous Things" which is a great noun class book?


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 01:53 PM

Surely you won't call me Shirley.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 03:32 PM

It's better than Late for Supper.

Speaking of Caucasian, tho, there are apparently a lot of people who don't know what that means. Where I work, we do educational presentations and have people fill out anonymous surveys at the end so we can have the information for grant reports at the end of the year. We used to ask their ethnicity and Caucasian was on the list. Instead of checking Caucasian, several people would write "white" under "other."

The old family rumour is that one of the gggrandmothers was half Cherokee but it's never been substantiated. My brother does sing in a Native American drum group, though... and my maiden name was Feathers... but that's actually a bastardization of Vatter, which was German. Then I found out I have a whole passel of Dutch ancestors.

So I don't know what I am frankly but I'm happy to be it whatever it is. :-)


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 03:35 PM

I hear you, Kim! I'm not entirely sure where all my blood came from, but I appear to have enough, and I'm grateful.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 03:56 PM

Havin enough blood, now that's important! I shouldn't be selfish, I know, but I prefer to keep my blood. I do understand, however, that there are people who don't have enough blood. Maybe one of these days I will get enough chutzpah to share mine.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 04:51 PM

I used to donate blood a lot before I wound up on all these various medications. It's not scary at all, and doesn't hurt as much as it feels good, IYKWIM.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: GUEST,in room 325 of the Motel 6
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 05:12 PM

Alex/Mousethief,

I used to think that you you were some kind of jerk.

Now I understand that you must be the way you are because of all your "various medications."


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 05:35 PM

That really wasn't very nice. Most of us are jerks at one time or another.

Don't go there with him, MT.


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Subject: RE: Where is 'Caucasia'?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 05:37 PM

No intent.


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