BS: Linguistics question--Peking/Beijing

Subject: Linguistics question--Peking/Beijing
From: Gary T
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 09:58 AM

I'm just curious about this. The capital of China is now commonly called Beijing. In my youth it was Peking, and it has also been rendered Peping/Peiping. Now, I can understand the initial consonant sound being considered either a "B" or a "P", as those are closely related sounds (both labials). I can understand the first vowel sound being shown as either "E" or "EI"--minor distinction. What I don't understand is how the second consonant sound could somehow be confused among a "J", "K", and "P"--these strike me as quite unrelated sounds. Can anyone enlighten me on these seemingly incongruous variations in the English spelling and pronunciation of this name?

Subject: RE: BS: Linguistics question--Peking/Beijing
From: GUEST,an is guy
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 11:35 AM

the change is due to china's move to pinyan (english transliteration of chinese) in the late 70's...

since the english pretty much stomped over the pronunciation of chinese place and proper names, the change was noticable

a case in point
peking/peiping vs beijing (pronounced bay-zhing)

what you did in your youth was a side-effect of imperialism/colonialism and the arrogance of "the white man's burden"
imagine, classifying a civilization 2000 years older than one's own as "backward"

dumbass comes in all sizes/shapes/formats

Subject: RE: BS: Linguistics question--Peking/Beijing
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 11:43 AM

Not quite the same, but may shed some light--I lived in Korea for a year. We seem to have more letters in our alphabet than they do, hence, in a few cases, 2 of our letters may express one of theirs--t/d, b/p, or the ever popularly stereotyped r/l. The best I ever did w/ pronouncing was to try to think one letter & say the other. :)

best,

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Linguistics question--Peking/Beijing
From: GUEST,p.s. from bbc
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 11:44 AM

Yup, I forgot the g/k. It's in the same category.

Subject: RE: BS: Linguistics question--Peking/Beijing
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 01:02 PM

To expand a bit on is guy's response.

The Chinese have not changed the pronunciation of the name of their capitol. However, Westerners have changed the way they represent the pronunciation (romanize) several times.

"Peking" comes one of the oldest systems of romanization called "Wade Giles." If you understand the conventions of the Wade Giles system and follow them, "Peking" is pronounced "bay-zhing." Unfortunately, if you do not know the conventions of the Wade Giles system you are almost guaranteed to mispronounce the word. Lots of Chinese terms became commonplace in the West with their Wade Giles romaniztions (e.g. Tao Te King). Unfortunately lots of Chinese terms continue to be systematically mispronounced because of the same romaniztion. In the "Tao Te King" example King is pronounced "jing." Of all the systems of romanization the Wade Giles is the most misleading.

Subject: RE: BS: Linguistics question--Peking/Beijing
From: Ringer
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 01:27 PM

Why do we worry about some foreign pronunciations and not others? Both Peking and Bay-zhing are probably laughably wrong to a native of that city. Why is there no pressure to pronounce Paris (France) as Par-ee, or Munich as Munchen or, for that matter, Munich's country as Deuchland? (I notice that all my examples are European. Is there a clue there, I wonder?)

Subject: RE: BS: Linguistics question--Peking/Beijing
From: Gary T
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 02:01 PM

Thank you for the responses, that seems clear enough to me. Pronouncing Tsing Tao beer as "ching dow" (I think that's right) also now makes some sense.

Interesting side note, brought to mind by the mention of R and L not being distinguished by most Orientals--recent research has shown that if certain sounds aren't heard by infants by the time they reach about six months of age, they do not develop the ability to differentiate them. The examples include certain gutturals in Scandinavian languages that vex speakers of English. Apparently most speakers of Asian tongues simply do not hear R and L as being different from each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Linguistics question--Peking/Beijing
From: Edmund
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 06:18 PM

I agree that the Wade Giles of pronunciation is confusing, but it is not responsible for the different pronounciations.
Peking (pronounce bayjing) means 'northern capital' and is used when Peking is, in fact, the capital. In times of history when China had a different city as its capital the name of the city was changed to mean to mean 'northern peace' and is pronounaced bayping (bay meaning northern and ping meaning peace).

Subject: RE: BS: Linguistics question--Peking/Beijing
From: Edmund
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 06:18 PM

I agree that the Wade Giles of pronunciation is confusing, but it is not responsible for the different pronounciations.
Peking (pronounce bayjing) means 'northern capital' and is used when Peking is, in fact, the capital. In times of history when China had a different city as its capital the name of the city was changed to mean to mean 'northern peace' and is pronounaced bayping (bay meaning northern and ping meaning peace).

Subject: RE: BS: Linguistics question--Peking/Beijing
From: Edmund
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 06:18 PM

I agree that the Wade Giles of pronunciation is confusing, but it is not responsible for the different pronounciations.
Peking (pronounce bayjing) means 'northern capital' and is used when Peking is, in fact, the capital. In times of history when China had a different city as its capital the name of the city was changed to mean to mean 'northern peace' and is pronounaced bayping (bay meaning northern and ping meaning peace).

Subject: RE: BS: Linguistics question--Peking/Beijing
From: Edmund
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 06:18 PM

I agree that the Wade Giles of pronunciation is confusing, but it is not responsible for the different pronounciations.
Peking (pronounce bayjing) means 'northern capital' and is used when Peking is, in fact, the capital. In times of history when China had a different city as its capital the name of the city was changed to mean to mean 'northern peace' and is pronounaced bayping (bay meaning northern and ping meaning peace).

Subject: RE: BS: Linguistics question--Peking/Beijing
From: Edmund
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 06:23 PM

Sorry for the multiple entries ..

Subject: RE: BS: Linguistics question--Peking/Beijing
From: Edmund
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 06:43 PM

Well, I'm making a hash of this ... wish I could blame my computer. The problem with the Wade Giles system was two fold. (a)it had to express the 4 tones used in Mandarin by writing numbers above each sound. and (b) it distinguished between certain sounds by using a " ' " when it was asperated and leaving it out when it was not. Thus, the sound 'bay' is spelled as a bay ... but the sound 'pay' is spelled p'ay. That beer in wade giles would be spelled Ts'ing Tao. No system for romanizing Chinese is perfect, but the one I learned on at least indicated the tone of the sound by altering the spelling. It is no longer in use, but then neither am I. Edmund

Subject: RE: BS: Linguistics question--Peking/Beijing
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 07:05 PM

Thanks, Edmund, now I understand that the old "Peiping" is not a different pronunciation but a different name entirely! And I agree with Bald Eagle that our attempts to "authenticize" our pronunciation of foreign words is often inconsistent and silly. I recall a professor in a college art class who made a big point of pronouncing the name "Velazquez" with a "th" sound for the "z". But it was a course about Picasso, and in pronouncing his name she invariably used an East Coast "a" (as in "cat") that I'm sure would never pass the lips of any self-respecting Catalan! Of course, I could be wrong about that...

Still, I think that those attempts at authenticity, when done in earnest, do show a degree of respect for other languages and cultures that is sorely needed in this too-angry world.

Aloha,
Mark