BS: Are we all good?

Subject: Are we all good?
From: GUEST,John
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 10:17 AM

This is a serious point, so I hope you'll read my message.

On Paltalk (previously HearMe) everything played is greeted by a 'that was really good'

When anyone submits a website - everyone says that's 'really good'

When anyone does anything creative, the mudcat community congratulates the author and tells them that 'it's really good'

I don't have any problem with encouragement, but let's be a bit more constructive (and honest).

Telling people that their work is great (when it isn't) may help in some circumstances, but it's not a universal solution.

John (expecting to get moaned at for being a guest)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 10:27 AM

Shouldn't one, even if you didn't think it was really good, assume that the person who SAYS so on Paltalk or Hearme doesn't agree with your assessment, and is actually being honest? I personally tend to provide applause for all performances, and praise for ones I especially like, but I don't feel that applauding someone's efforts, even if you didn't like what their effort produced, is bad. I agree it might not be constructive criticism, but unless that is specifically requested, I wouldn't provide it on that particular forum. In other words, when I want to be graded, I ask for it, but when I just want to show off, I just want to show off, and please don't grade me on my show, it's not what I showed off FOR. But maybe that's just me... and no moaning!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: jeffp
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 10:29 AM

John, that was a really good post! **BG**

Seriously, though, I think the tendency of this group is to be supportive, especially in public. Criticism is usually only offered if solicited in the first place. I suspect that there may be more criticism (constructive of course) offered in Personal Messages. Otherwise, the community here seems to play the part of audience (applaud, don't heckle) unless otherwise requested.

Of course, I could be completely wrong here.

jeffp

P.S. Your guest status is not a problem, especially since you chose to identify yourself with a name. You are more than welcome to join if you wish. The more the merrier.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Zebedee
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 10:32 AM

I agree,

Whilst many could turn round and, justifiably, ask what I'd done better, the fact that everything here is considered 'really good' irks me too.

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 10:33 AM

Hey Zebedee - really good point! (just kidding!)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: gnu
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 10:38 AM

I would want people to be completely honest IF I was asking for an assessemnt of my performance. Of course, it makes no never mind to me because I know it sucks.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: gnu
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 10:39 AM

Notice I didn't say... it "really" sucks.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 10:41 AM

I think it teeters between the two. Many here do seem to play the part of audience. I tend to not comment if I can't say something good, though I have been known to descend with all four hooves firmly planted, as well...

But then again, I am not qualified to comment on most things here except from the basis of my own opinon/likes/dislikes.

On the other hand, constructive critiscism is offered at times and we have also seen wholesale destructive critiscism offered.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:04 AM

Mudcatters are one big happy family, with everyone patting each other on the back, and giving words and smiles of encouragment. They remind me of the Adams family.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:06 AM

Guest coward #1, do you mean the Addams Family?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:09 AM

And guest#1 plays the part of "kitty"

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: alison
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:13 AM

no we're not all good.........

I do prefer people to be honest... but the difference here is that people don't want to offend.....

I am in favour of constructive criticism... but the nasty, mean, things that get said in here sometimes (and more often of late) do nothing to improve the situation....

if I have a problem with something someone has done, or played........ I am more likely to offer any advice or opinion in a private message than I am to say it in a thread.......

there are some wonderful people performing in paltalk.... there are also some REALLY BAD people...... and people whose ideas of good and bad are very different from mine....

we won't ever all agree... and it'd be a dull place if we did

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:15 AM

John, you might enjoy and old thread about being "completely honest." If you search a year back on that you will find it.

Sometimes, I think, it is that people are honestly expressing the positive side of what they have seen or heard. I think it is honest to make a choice to praise the best among all that has been offered, in the wisdom that this can be a powerful motivation to continue to progress in the specific area praised.

I also think that most people have a "short list" of people to whom they turn, once they are ready, on any effort, for a little constructive feedback that includes attention to areas in need of improvement. Let me say it as briefly as possible-- when my dughter and I sing in rehearsal, and she looks at me with that look I know so well, and says, "That really sucked!", then we both know it is said in honest love and humor, and we both crack up, and we try to do better, and we keep at it. If someone I do not know or trust walked in on the same rehearsal, and said that, my throat would slam shut and it's unlikely I'd sing at all. Well, I see criticism from the context of that sort of continuum.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:34 AM

"Good"? Oh, you mean good in terms of quality of accomplished work, do you, Guest, John.....?

Well, we are all probably good one time, not so good another time, better than we were last year, or whatever the case may be.

I do think it is helpful to encourage people when they make an effort to be creative, even if they're not as good as the present "state of the art" out there. What difference does it make? At least they tried. A lot of people don't try, they just get drunk or watch their TV all day(or both).

If the person asks for pointers on how they could improve their work, then by all means give them some, but just leveling criticism is seldom helpful to anyone.

A more interesting thread concept to discuss would be: Are we all "good", in the sense of our intrinsic value as worthwhile beings????

I think we are. But sometimes it's hard to see it in either yourself or others. Sometimes you can't feel it. Sometimes you just can't believe it. And that's when life can become very painful.

You want to really talk about something really substantial? Talk about that. I don't particularly care if my friends can play the guitar like Eric Clapton or not or design a website as good as the prevailing standard. They are still unique and valuable beings regardless, and if they try I will encourage them for doing so.

Besides, there's enough hatred, backbiting, brutal honesty, and controversy on the Mudcat here and there to keep anyone happy. :-) You just haven't been reading the right threads...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:55 AM

Feel free to tell me I'm crap!

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:00 PM

Great Thread!

Really.

My standard response to the situations you describe is polite, mildly positive feedback. Part of the reason is that it is the way I was raised. Part of the reason is that I feel that people should be encouraged to do certain things regardless of my opinion of the level of their accomplishment. For example, I think that people should ALWAYS be encouraged to sing. Part of the reason is my own experiences. I have found honesty in the form of "constructive" criticism to be more trouble than it is worth. People always say they want honest feedback, but that is just what they think they are supposed to say. In reality they want praise but would rather not admit it.

If you want honesty in the form of an unvarnished expression of my opinion about your performance, you have to earn it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: LR Mole
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:01 PM

Yeah..the truth lies somewhere in between, always, and its usefulness depends on how much the teller wants to help, and how much work is put in.It's possible to help someone's playing without hurting them. The generosity of professional players is, for me, one of their hallmarks.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: GUEST,as well, for now.
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:07 PM

Guest John. Yes it is a valid point. Also a sensitive one, and has been brought up many times before. Usually in the form of cruel and hurtful flaming. There seem to be two types of flamers obsessed with telling people just how angry they are that Mudcat acts to all intents and purposes like a REAL community (remember, the people in REAL communities DO support each other, often with little regard to whether the support is totally warrented).

The "kick ass, in your face, I don't give a shit what you think" flamer is irritating, but in the long run much easier to deal with, partly because they're usually easily recognisable to someone who's been here for a while. Almost to a man/woman their "regular" posts give strong hints as to how their anonymous ones will read.

The other kind of flamer is a lot more troubling. Usually long time members, increasingly dismayed at the lack of participants in the "folk music discussions". Perhaps the superficiality of most of these threads get up their noses as well. I'm sure they realize that the vast majority of people here "like" the music, but very few are obsessed enough with it to become seriously knowledgeable. It's not their fault, and they don't deserve to be flamed for it. They have families, jobs, Church, P.T.A., and perhaps The Kingston Trio, or Bob Dylan is the deepest they've delved into the music. Yes, I know that some of them delight in throwing out brief and stupid one liners, or keeping political threads going on for days in what seems like private conversations among three or four "usual suspects", but once again, There are no "entrance exams" required to participate in Mudcat. It's not hard to picture the frustrated "pure music, or academic" Mudcatter going underground to vent their anger at what they see as a "hijacking". Or even the person who used to enjoy the exchanges of ideas in general threads, before a few people turned them into never-ending idealogical rants, getting pissed off. After a while I suspect that this person is easily able to rationalise cruelty aimed at others as simply "tough medicine to deal with a difficult problem". I've felt anger as well, regarding the lack of interest in the music so dear to my heart, but have managed to keep it out of the forum. Perhaps I'm lucky enough to have more room to vent "on the outside" than the flamer. The actions suck, but I can understand the motivation of this kind of flamer, but NOT the first kind.

Yes it's true. Almost every sung note, or plucked string results in a pat on the back. Stories of personal tragedies are met with outpourings of support. Familiar names elicit more positive response. Why? Because it's a clique? Sure, if you want to call it that, but a pleasant personality with an identifiable nickname can quickly become part of that "clique". As cliques go this one is pretty undemanding. Even the few here with a real attitude have found that all they have to do is "post nice", and a week of nastiness is forgotten by most. Real life cliques are not THAT forgiving.

So Guest, "Are we all good?" Of course not. Lots of Mudcatters are pretty bad when you get down to it. But you know what? I'll bet they're a damned sight better than when they first arrived here. And do you know what has helped them get better? Positive strokes. Pats on the back. The efforts of those who've offered their experience freely and in some cases constantly. If you don't think that a big "That's great, way to go guy/gal" gives a person more confidence, you're simply wrong.

And once a person has learned the words and the tune, all they need is confidence for the music to become "magic". I'll put up with quite a bit of "rah, rah" if it can lead to some magic.

That's all for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:12 PM

The problem with critiquing members talents is the level of clarity and honesty you want to give them. More often than not, musical people tend to be sensitive people, and sometimes it is hard for them to separate constructive criticism from a personal attack on their entire being.

It can also depend on the level of talent and musical respect the reviewer has established with his/her fellow peers, in order to determine if their critique is credible and with merit, or if they're just being patronizing.

I think here, people are rewarded more for their efforts, than what it is they're actually performing. It takes a lot for some people to perform for others, and what may sometimes be seen as patronizing can be misinterpretted. Mind you, like any microcosm, there are varying degrees of talent and there are also some damn fine and extremely talented people here. In the end, what constitutes "good" is in the ear and heart of the listener.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:12 PM

That's mighty generous of you, Bagpuss. You're crap! Anything else I can do for you? :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:13 PM

Well, I have been told I was really good...only to find later I was great....especially in private....

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:18 PM

I had thought this was an ethical/moral question thread... along the lines of "are people basically good with a few baddies thrown in, or basically bad with a few random saints sprinkled in?"

I have been told that in a certain religious tradition, it is incumbent upon the guests at a wedding to "cheer the bride." This is customarily done by telling her she's beautiful. "But what if she's not? What if she's butt-ugly? Should we lie?" some people apparently asked. The answer from the powers-that-be: brides are BY DEFINITION beautiful.

Not sure if this applies to this thread or not. But I think that saying "Good job!" can have two different purposes, which may be mutually exclusive, or may not: (1) to accurately appraise the job; or (2) to cheer and congratulate the performer. Sense #2 is a legitimate use of the phrase. It is not necessary to interpret all uses of the phrase as being of type #1.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:24 PM

...for it to be other than a hollow compliment, "that was really good" has to be followed by a qualifier. Ohterwise, "that was really good" might mean, "that was really good...that you didn't seriously pursue a career in music."

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:27 PM

In the Paltalk rooms I frequent, the aim is to provide a freindly comfortable place to perform regardless of skill levels. Perhaps people can be over-generous with praise at times but offering criticism, however well intentioned tends to be very counter-productive for the success of and the comfortable feel of the room and some admins/room owners specifically request that criticisms are not made.

Other than that, I think that criticisms are generally best reserved for occasions when people ask for comments and I believe any such comments should be made honestly. I get the impression that within Mudcat, there are a certain number of people who will say "great" just to be nice and supportive. My own opinion is this actually hinders rather than helps the person asking for feedback.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:30 PM

Little Hawk - Now could you please tell me I'm ugly too?

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:32 PM

No, mousethief, I mean the Munsters.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: UB Ed
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:49 PM

When I'm good, I'm very, very good, but when I'm bad I'm horrid...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:52 PM

Nah - we can't all be really good can we? Personally I am very uncomfortable with saying something is good unless I really think it is. If I think something (eg a performance) was bad then I'll very likely say nothing at all, unless there's something helpful I can say.
Friends I play/sing with have picked up on this & there have been awkward moments when I've not said their song/tune was good & they've known that that meant I did not like it. However - when I have said I thought something was good then those same people have known that I really meant it. Not that I think I'm any great judge of anything - its just that I'd rather be honest than not.
Mark (my husband)is monstrously honest. Of course I get depressed when he fails to encourage me all the time. But then when he does say he liked something then it really means a lot.
On the other hand - I know some people who are unbelievably encouraging to everyone & who alway say everything is great. I must admit its really nice when they say it (even though you can't actually tell whether they mean it or not). And this blanket praise is just a part of what genuinely lovely people they are.
From specific experience I'd say that it is not really kind to encourage people to perform badly, as this may mean that they don't achieve their real potential. And I don't like to encourage anyone to make a fool of themselves unwittingly - so I'd be against saying something is good if it is in fact appalling.
Probably you need a mix of both approaches & then the performer can pick & chose which he listens to :-)
A web forum is probably not a good place to post criticisms however constructive, because it is very public & such a lot is in the eye of the reader as far as context goes - hence it can do more harm than good. So then we end up with a lot of praise being posted (which is nice) & silences don't count as they are invisible. So maybe it all comes across a bit saccharine at times, but that probably can't be helped & is just a result of having nice people around (which can't be a bad thing).

Kris
PS. If I'm saying nothing then its not always because I didn't like something - most of the time its because I'm too shy to congratulate someone on the basis that they probably don't give a toss what I think anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:55 PM

I'm shite, but I like to think I'm getting better.
Most of us, if we're totally honest, are our own worst critics, and the support often given by 'Catters in these threads does no harm and may shore up self-esteem.
Remember, a lot of people who use the 'net can be fairly shy and withdrawn in the flesh, so things that boost self-esteem here, even if they sometimes appear saccharine and non-constructive, may help them develop and grow in the real world.
Anyway, random acts of kindness are quite fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 01:03 PM

Actually all Mudcatters ARE good.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 01:12 PM

I'm evil. But I'm trying to be good.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: nutty
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 01:24 PM

To me , this asks for the same definition as a "good meal" or a "good wine" - it is a matter for personal preference.

Initially on Paltalk people were so amazed by "live" performance that everything was greated with enthusiasm .I find it amusing that on some sites Kareoke and taped music is met with the same amount of praise.

I do not agree with the notion of critisism - either spoken or written - silence would be enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 01:34 PM

My Nana taught me "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." So I offer "Interesting choice" or "Amazing rendition" when I can't honestly say "Great". Otherwise I say "Great".

I agree with Bert:
All Mudcatters are good BUT some are more gooder than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 01:52 PM

Free advice is worth just what you pay for it.

Anonymous advice is worth less.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 02:01 PM

I'm not sure I'm following some of the logic in this thread. I am not keen on and try to avoid criticsm that has not been asked for but if I made a post asking, let's say, "what do you think of my spreadsheet?", should I not expect comments good and bad in the thread as a result?

Personally, I would be extremely dissapointed if I did not get some polite constructive criticism and I would in fact question the purpose of asking Mudcatters if I felt I was not receiving a reasonable balance of views.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 02:07 PM

I'm one of the small minority that feels that folk performers and folks in general--not just Mudcatters--would benefit from criticism (if they'd pay any attention to it). I don't mean the kind of non-specific venting that's apt to stifle newbies; I'm thinking more of things like " Gee- that would sound even better with a less complicated accompaniment" or " I found that the colors on your website make it hard to read the text."

In the field of performing, negative criticism generally takes the form of not attending the next performance---a particularly painful form of criticism if you're trying to be a successful performer.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 02:08 PM

When you sing on the Paltalk, are you explicitly or even implictly asking, "Please give me honest criticism of my performance abilities, song choice, etc."? Or just singing? If a person explicitly asks for feedback, then one should provide it; if not, it's presumptuous to do anything but applaud (or not). "Good job" is a verbal equivalent of applauding.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 02:28 PM

jON - I WAS REFERRING TO THE pALTALK cONCERTS. iF SOMEONE ASKS ME FOR MY OPINION i GIVE IT. Damn Capslock!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 02:29 PM

Sins! It's been so long since we've seen you damn capslock! It's like old home week here!

Sigh. So much like home.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 02:49 PM

There is something to be said for almost every post here. Great job!

Seriously, if you take a bit of dick's with a taste of MT and throw in Jon's last one............

A performer who's trying to "make it" needs to hear your thoughts, good, bad, or indifferent. I don't do Paltalk, but in the HearMe days, I always thought it was just a bunch of folks singing......like they might on the porch or in the kitchen......and "quality" doesn't enter into it unless the participant actually asks. I think a lot of us are pretty marginal at best and we know it and are also fairly self-deprecating. So we encourage each other with a wink and a smile.....we already know how we perform. What's the problem?

When Morty asked about her website, I gave what I thought. I like her certainly, but I liked her site because it reflected her. I don't know squat about web design and my only other suggestion to her was to listen to the ones who did and then sort it out for herself. So I said that and that I thought it was great......What's the problem?

Maybe this is a clique.......if it is it's a real BIG clique. Most folks around here are pleasant and supportive. If you directly ask, I think you'll get the truth (as they see it) from many, and from others.......well, they're just nice people who don't like to see friends hurt or hurt them themselves. Again, what's the problem.

So if you want to nasty and direct and all that, I see Alex has started a thread seemingly wanting to be beat up, so go over and kick the crap out of Alex.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 03:09 PM

I think it is difficult to generalise over Paltalk as there are so many music rooms, some of which are or have been Mudcat rooms and others, such as Neil's Barn Jam have regular support from Mudcatters and the aims and views of the room owners/ admins does vary.

As a general rule (unless things are extremely quiet), I would not even like to see people asking for criticism in my room or any of the rooms that I have have admined.

Forgetting my own feelings (just for a sing), let's say I have a room with 25 people in and some coming and going, some people who know one another, some strangers.. and someone is typing "well you could improve on that...", someone else comes in 1/2 way through... I could have a war in the text chat in no time!

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 04:43 PM

When I listen to paltalk I always find something good to say about someones performance because I know how I would feel if anyone was to say anything bad about my efforts. As musical appreciation is often a subjective matter anyway I do not always feel it is my place to judge anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 05:03 PM

What spaw said. And, this is a really good thread. Lots of honest opinions, solid advice, and damn few flamers. I really do wonder if Guest #1 can play or perform at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 05:45 PM

Well... that depends on what you mean by "good." For some people, the simple act of performing when someone else is listening is good.

My policy is, if I don't think it's good, I just don't say so. BUT---- when the potential is there, the person may need encouragement to develop it further.

I do believe people should be sincere in whatever they say, and I think most folks can tell when someone's just being glib.

I don't have the ability to access Paltalk but I have a feeling that most of the people around here ARE pretty good at something.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: RichM
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 05:45 PM

What's the point of being hurtful, and blunt?
If you want to do that, PM the person directly. But that would mean becoming an identifiable member, yes?

I've said it before here: my philosophy about judgements is :
First, is it true? Second is it necessary? And third, but not least, is it kind?

Examine your own motives for negativity, Guests, before being merely honest.

Rich

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 06:03 PM

First, and most important, it all boils down to opinion. I can not applaud a bad job. It is not honest. If I tell you that you did a great job, I really think you did. But, please dont ask my opinion if what you really want is my approval. You will get my opinion. Another thing, too many of us tend to mix our performing with our self esteem. They are two different things. I detest raucus and roll in any form. But, I know people who like that stuff, and they are great people! Doug is a conservative, but, he is a great guy. See the difference?

I've seen and heard a few people who were so bad at singing or picking, it is hard to think they dont know the difference, but, they MUST! If you get frequent requests to perform, you are probably good at what you do. If you get few requests, you probably need to work on your stuff. If you get no requests, you probably suck.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 06:16 PM

Absolutely, kendall. My "band" has another problem though, that may not be related to "good". We are in a small town, very rural area, and we won't travel more than 50 miles to perform.

About every third year, we get more requests for bookings than we are willing to do, since we are not Professional, with no desire to be so.

I think it has to do with the "saturation point"....as in
"Oh, we've heard them" or "We had them last year"

None of this has anything to do with PalTalk/HearMe.....that is a whole 'nother story, and I really don't want to rain on someone's parade in there, unless he/she/they REALLY ask for it. I do appreciate the fact that it can be difficult to perform at all, let alone with what amounts to "your computer" for an audience.

I love live audiences, but I feel a little silly "performing" for my computer, so I try to make nice unless critique is specifically asked for.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 06:31 PM

Dick says it's good for folk performers to receive criticism, but Dick has a way about him that allows him to give criticism without ever being hurtful. Dick, if you'd like to give us pointers on giving constructive criticism, we might all benefit. I think a lot of it has to do with your wonderfully quirky sense of humor.

I haven't had time for Paltalk lately. When I did it, I often used it to try out new songs - and there was a good possibility that a number of my attempts wouldn't work. I can't make a song my own until I've tried it out on audiences a few times. Usually, I know very well when I screw up, and it hurts enough as it is. Polite applause tends to lessen the pain.

But yeah, when I sing a song that I know well, I'm darn good. When I'm experimenting with new material, it's a learning process.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 09:02 AM

The Paltalk rooms remind me of the open mike nights that I used to go to all the time. The purpose was to give people a chance to perform in front of an audience. Everybody was applauded, some for an excellent job, some for the courage to try, some others for the potential that they displayed, but all got the applause. I think it's great. But I do see the point of trying to find an honest answer. Perhaps an idea would be to set up a room (on some regular basis), maybe call it Mudcritique where folks who want to get the pointers, constructive criticism, etc. can go and get it. I'd be in that room in a heartbeat. I'd try out new stuff, old stuff, and get pointers, suggestions.......I'd love it! Not everybody would, I understand but I think a critique night once a week/month/quarter/whatever would be great!

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 09:09 AM

An amendment to my previous post--I still think that folkdom needs more, rather than less criticism. Paltalk isn't a good place to give it, though; at least where everyone can see or hear it. Paltalk provides for personal phone calls, and Mudcat provides for personal messages. Mo' bettah.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Dani
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 11:50 AM

I don't know about paltalk, but I do know lots about being an amateur. LOTS. Joe's words are ones of deep wisdom. If I'm brave and foolhardy enough to sing in public, it's USUALLY something I'm real comfortable with and confident about - otherwise I would not do it. And in that setting, when you're doing something from the heart, I'm not sure what kind criticism would feel good. But with that said, I would like to find myself in a situation someday where someone who really knows and cares could help me to improve, because I know I can't hear myself - it's like editing your own writing, it only goes so far. But that would have to come from someone who cared at least a little about ME, and appreciated the music I love to sing.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: Grab
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 08:23 AM

I do find this a problem, John.

My problem is that I'm an average singer and player. I don't think (I hope!) I'm actively painful to listen to, most of the time at least. :-) But to improve from there, I need feedback for what I'm doing right or wrong. So I need ppl who I know are more skilled than me, or who aren't experts but have a good ear for music, to give me pointers.

This does require an element of trust on both sides. You trust the other person to give you an objective view of things, and the other person trusts you not to fly off the handle! So the other person has to be a friend - not necessarily a close friend, but someone who you at least know casually from your folk club or Paltalk, and who you know isn't going to be overly aggressive in their criticism.

For the record, I really _do_ want constructive criticism when I play on Paltalk! Gimme that ol' time criticism!

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all good?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 08:33 AM

I suggest using a tape recorder, playing back what you do, ans listen carefully. Compare what you hear to someone you like as a performer. BUT, dont try to imitate that performer. In doing this, I learned that I tend to do some things too fast, and, I still have to watch that.