BS: Any Goths outthere?

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: lady penelope
Date: 19 May 01 - 04:19 AM

I was the maid of honour at a goth wedding the other weekend. Due to the groom being a total romantic, they got married in the middle of nowhere ( well about 6 miles outside Exeter ) on top of a 1000 foot hill, up a tower, called Haldon Belvedere. It was a VERY nice place and it was a very good do and it was screamingly funny to find out that the bride was afraid of heights and had trouble coping with spiral staircases!!! Bless her heart, she did really well and didn't mame any one for getting in her way. The music selection was of course gothy with a hint of pop ( don't ask me ) I couldn't believe when Wet Wet Wet came on! But as the groom is a real "Cyber Goth" it was all on MP3, which then proceeded to crash every few songs. Teehee. Should of got real musickers in!

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: hesperis
Date: 19 May 01 - 02:47 AM

Yeah, I was never a Goth, but I was very depressed for a while. Now, before you all jump on me for crashing your thread and posting that silly link... I had Goth friends!

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 18 May 01 - 07:20 PM

Dave the Gnome, Dare you tell em about sitting under a bridge in the lakes singing I'm a troll fol-de-rol....and the effect on the local child population.....

And yes...damn their hides...I am a part time goth...Black dog...black lippy.....cool.

Spot

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Dorrie
Date: 18 May 01 - 06:54 PM

This is quite ridiculous because being a teenagers isn't easy but its not actually that hard. But in saying that i think we do get a bad press. goths and moshers r different things and the depression doesn't come with it. i guess u might say me and my friends r goths/moshers and we have a right laugh. i love being a teenagers but exams can really easily depress ppl especially because no body understands the course nevermind what the end thing is gonna b

each 2 their own dorrie xxx

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: hesperis
Date: 18 May 01 - 03:16 PM

Sheesh! I am having a BAD TYPO DAY!!!

Goth!

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: hesperis
Date: 18 May 01 - 02:17 PM

For a lighter look at Goth, there's a sarcastic site about how to become one with an Insta-Kit!

Tip: Check out the "how-to"s and then look at the poster goths.

A HREF="http://sykospark.net/goth/">Funny!

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 09:33 AM

Ha! I have them trained in "Walking Safely Away From Gnomes. Module one: fishing tackle". Fear for your gnome-ish life!

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 07:46 AM

Ahhhh - but Fib, you already know of my nefarious fellwalking activities! Nothing should surprise you about a Gnome who frightens girl guides....

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 07:37 AM

S'okay, I believe you already!
(but am worried at the thought of a goth gnome)

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 07:26 AM

I think we may be at transatlantic difference time again - or just differences in perception anyway. Having just returned from the Goth festival in Whitby I can say I saw no evidence of devil worship, suicide cults or any other 'negative' aspects of Goth sub-culture apart from one or two 'offensive' tee-shirt slogans. There was no trouble, fighting, vandalism or evidence of heavy drug abuse. Even the teenagers I met were happy!

Remember that 'Goth' has now come to mean as many things as Folk does to us. There are traditional goths, romantic goths, cyber goths, punk goths, etc etc - the list seems endless. Not all were dressed in black. Very few looked even remotely vampirish. Oddly enough the whole vampire bit is a bit frowned on at Whitby - very cliched dontcha know! There were Victorian mill owners, Napoleonic soldiers, whip wielding dominatrix's, sexy slaves, leather clad bikers, petite Edwardian ladies and a whole multitude of styles colours, clothes and attitudes.

The main thing was all had a great time. They were all super friendly and welcomed everyone with equal good grace. I saw a brilliant sign which said 'The only difference between someone who has tatoos and piercings and someone who doesn't is that the one with them never takes offence at someone without!'

I had no reservations at all about taking my daughters (twins) when they were 14 (Well - they took me actualy!) They are now 16, pretty well balanced and funnily enough no longer into the goth look - although they still like the music. The worse effect it had on them was that they were bullied to the extent that they had to change school and ended up receiving treatment for depression as a result of the violence towards them. I don't blame the other children too much. They have only been taught by narrow minded bigoted parents who believed that the Goth sub-culture consisted of satan worshiping, gun toting, psycopathic evil murderers! Neither of my daughters, or any of their friends, or anyone I saw this weekend remotely fits into that stereotype.

There you go - anyone want the soapbox back???

Cheers

Dave the Gothignome

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 05:39 AM

"Making teenagers depressed is like shooting fish in a barrel" (wods of wisdom from The Simpsons).
I have quite a few piercings. My mother thought it was some kind of self-mutilation at first, but now I think she's just happy I didn't get a tattoo when I threatened to. As am I.
I couldn't be a goth now. I find most of the music dire, although get a kick out of some of the industrial stuff (perhaps because it's a dance music precursor of sorts) but now I like happy music.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: English Jon
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 05:11 AM

!!!!!!!!!!!

LIGHTEN UP!

!!!!!!!!!!!

1. Teenagers will always be depressed. Fact of Life. Something to do with hormones.

2. Can't think of too much in the way of Goth Lyrics that says "we love Satan" etc. Fields of the Nephilim used to do a lot of stuff based on ancient sumerian legends etc, but no-one could understand a word of it anyway.

3. Of course, goth is the only youth culture that has people with tatoos, ear piercings etc. MARTIN CARTHY HAS PIERCED EARS! So have lots of women, come to think of it. Whats the difference?

For God's sake, it's a fashion statement.

Oy vay.

English Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: SeanM
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 01:07 AM

As with any trend, clique or the like, certain unbalanced people will always pull the curve out of whack.

My personal experience and time as a gothie was a combination of typical teenage rebellion, a like for the music, and a desire to bond more closely with my friends who were of the same mind. I'm not gonna deny that there are 'freaks' (as we referred to them) who really believe they're a vampire, or 101 other stupid things that they believe. However, you can find this in ANY subculture. In my experience, I ran into one or two goths who I'd consider a danger to others or themselves. I've run into one or two punks during that phase who were truly self or otherwise destructive (I'm not counting gangs into that - that's stupidity independent of the subculture). I've even run into one or two folkies I'd consider dangerous - people who've taken the idea that singing about changing things isn't enough, and one must do so by any means necessary.

While I do appreciate that Goths, Punks, and the affiliated trade guilds are easy targets and the most visible tend not to be the best examples, I don't see the cause for concern that Sorcha does. I've never met a single person who has become 'dangerous' to anyone simply by listening to the music. Sometimes it can be a warning sign - it's hammered into a lot of kids that only "sick and disturbed people look like that, act like that, listen to that music". In that case, it's only natural that a teenager will adopt that style to show that they're distressed. But it's not the cause. I lost two friends in high school to suicide, one goth, one punk. The goth was being raped by her father - but the family wouldn't believe her, and blamed her friends. The punk had gotten hooked into drugs, turned punk, and eventually wound up getting into fistfights with his father before OD'ing intentionally.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the subculture is not a danger, is not 'evil', or any of the other things that popularly get said about it. If you're concerned that a child of yours or someone else's is being damaged by this, please PLEASE look more closely at the life beyond the music before condemning the entire ball o' wax. Was their behaviour a sudden and drastic change from previous behaviour? Are they flaunting the 'dangerous' angles, but not expressing any interest in the mundane angles? There are many signs, none of which start with "Is he/she a goth?"

Sorry... I'll return this soapbox for the nickel deposit now and get a soda...

M

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Peg
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 10:41 PM

English Jon; I do love Hedningarna! And Garmarna...love love love some of the new dark Scandinavian folk bands...

Peg

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: hesperis
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 09:24 PM

Evil doesn't exist in all religions.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: JeZeBeL
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 01:19 PM

Oh, yeh, I'd just like to point out that i DON'T worship Satan, or any type of evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Wavestar
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 11:51 AM

I had a friend who said she was a Satanist- curious, I asked her what this involved. She said it wasn't about evil, or darkness, or demons - it was people who felt that Lucier was right in rebelling, because he wanted free will from God, and didn't want to have to worship anyone or anything.

Not what I expected. Different. Even thought-provoking. Not necesssarily what most kids are thinking, but I was surprised- at least some were.

-J

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Caitrin
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 10:19 AM

There's "Satan Worship" and there's "Worship of evil". The first is basically a reversal of Christianity. The second requires no Christianity or belief in anything other than evil.
And Sorcha, I agree completely. That's a large part of why I get irritated at so many of the people who "do the Goth thing". You're definitely right about self-mutilation--it's not funny, it's scary. People who do it have a lot of pain they're trying to cope with and need help with that pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Gervase
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 07:46 AM

Thread-drift here, but to be a Satan worshipper in the purest sense, you have to be/have been a Christian, surely?
After all, Satan only really exists in the Christian canon, so it would be pretty pointless in anyone else worshipping the old goat.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 12:11 AM

Thanks, Alex. Suicide and death in general are just all too real and recent in this household for any of us to Play Games about it......and self mutilation is not funny either. That includes piercings, as far as I am concerned. Why should any kind of pain be condsidered FUN??

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 12:05 AM

Sorcha, makes perfect sense, what you said. Thanks for speaking up. I guess I hadn't seen it from exactly that angle before.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 10:21 PM

As A Person: I have no real problem with Gothic as long as it is a mature, adult decison as an Alternate Persona just for fun. It is not for me, because I KNOW as a result of past experiences that the Dark Side really does exist, regardless of what you call it. And, the more you call It, the more It responds.

As a Parent: Gothic scares the shit out of me because of what I just said about the more you call It, the more It responds. Too many teens don't understand that, and they don't have the maturity of judgement to know when to STOP.

Should I, as a Parent, embrace music that encourages my child to commmit violence on other living things, or to committ suicide????

Unfortunately, if you call Satan (regardless of what name you call Him) he does answer. Does not Satan/Dark Side exist in almost every religion? After fighting depression for nearly 50 years, I don't NEED to call down any help just to feel depressed.

Pre teens, teens and adolescents trying/wanting to be Depressed scares the shit out of me......I have dealt with too many REAL suicides to want to "play pretend" at it.......

My tears are real, and I don't tolerate "pretend tears" very well..........if you want something to cry about, or feel depressed about, I can find you something REAL....and NOW!! Not just fake angst. I get very put out at emotional fakery of any kind. (Play Party games like re-enactment are a different story--they don't intend to create false depression.....OK? You got me here?

Not sorry, but come get this soapbox, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 06:58 PM

Heyyyyy! I didn't know that to be a goth I had to worship Santa.... Damn! I'll have to give it up. I mean, Santa's ok and all that at Christmas but worship....

Lysdexia lures Ko?

tDG

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Nemesis
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 04:01 PM

Re. I had a friend who wore vaguely hippy clothes, a lot of black eyeliner, and dozens of jingling silver bracelets - apparently, when she walked down the street looking vaguely alternative people would throw stones: and this was in GOOLE?

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: wildlone
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 03:01 PM

I thought that this was about the forthcoming film work up in Wales in a couple of weeks time.
The members of the re-enactment group that I belong to have been asked to play the part of Goths and take on the Romans, but it has been put off until the foot in mouth dies down.
dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Wavestar
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:52 PM

I think you'll find it's something from a Biblical whorehouse, actually, Jezebal/Emma.... II Kings 9. Boy- one nasty chapter of the Bible, I must say.

-J

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:11 PM

Has anybody else stumbled onto the Gothic Martha Stewart site? (really) http://www.toreadors.com/martha/index.html
(sorry, I haven't got the hang of the blueclicky yet)

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: JeZeBeL
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:24 PM

I'm a Goth, Well, part time now. Used to be a pretty hardcore goth when I was at college, went to uni in newcastle and when I saw the area I was living in I thought I'd be shot if I went out in me goth stuff!!

I was goth at the jug inn last nite!! UltraViolet Orange hair, black music tee shirt, short black skirt, BLUE fishnet tights and of course the ever faithful Doc Marten boots!!

Noone could miss me last night when they walked in anyway!!

I guess I'm more of a punk now though. WOuld love a mohican, .................but I need to get a job, so that's that outta the window.

I still love a lot of industrial music, give me a NineInchNails CD anyday to listen to, but I love punk covers, and SKA music. I'm going to be playing trumpet in a ska band soon, can't wait!!

Anyone who likes the crossover between goth and folk try IN EXTREMO, a German metalish band which incorporates bagpipes and harp!! It sounds awful from my description but it works very well. I am definately impressed!!

Now you get to know why my Mudcat name is JeZeBeL!! It all links in you see. It was my gothic name was JeZeBeL adn I even got so seriously goth I was going to change it at one point. I am now known as Emma again though. Probably better in the long run. I mean JeZeBeL, wot kind of a name is that, sounds like something from a swedish whorehouse!!

Emma xxx

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:21 PM

(Love to stay and debate the issue, but dinner and a leaderless Girl Guide pack await!)

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:18 PM

Oh, I totally agree that they're in a minority, but I don't see the need for pity OR scorn - it's just a choice of belief systems. And are satan worshippers not completely different from the stereotyped anti-Christian version anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:11 PM

How many kids who "worship satan" are really serious about their "religion" and how many are just trying to shock their parents? Truly there is nothing new under the sun. The Goths I talked to were not satan-worshippers (actually they were Episcopalians!) and I would wager that very few people who think they are satan worshippers really are, and they are more in need of our pity than our scorn.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:08 PM

Yeah, but what about all the brat-kids who appear on afternoon talk shows with titles like "My Kid Worships Satan and Listens to Evil Music and Wears Black Lipstick and Has Piercings" (maybe more concise than that) who all try to dress like goths cos they want to be individual, but they try so hard not to fit in that they end up looking like everyone else. Sad really. And nowadays I am mocked for wearing stripey knee socks. The only time I looked fashionable was during the grunge phase, though mine was out of habit and necessity and not current trends.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:45 PM

Am not a Goth, currently don't know any Goths, but have met and talked with some in the past -- they struck me as a hell of a lot like folks. The ones I talked to were really pretty nice, and not nearly as f***ed up as the media likes to portray them.

Everybody wants to "fit in" -- the Goths, methinks, have just found a way to identify themselves that the "mainstream" culture is a little uncomfortable with. But they're human, with human wants, needs, desires, feelings, etc., for all that.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Caitrin
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:33 PM

Trad and Violent Femmes? *grins* Sounds cool, Sean.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: paddymac
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 06:12 AM

Jasus, DtG, be careful. That burnt whisky can do strange things to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: English Jon
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 05:23 AM

Anybody out there like Hedningarna?

Swedish folk music that sounds as if it was produced by Christian Death. Very interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: SeanM
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:50 AM

Hi, my name's Sean. I'm a recovering Goth, punk, Industrial-head and pretty much every other major aberration in music to head down the pike.

Did my time as a "black clad". Still got the long hair, though it's grown longer and now is no longer uniform Clairol Blue-Black (Number 93, if I remember correctly).

Did my time as a 'skunkhawk', sides shaved up to the crown, rest grown and epoxyed up to fins.

Did my time in fishnets, though for personal reasons much less than the above - I'm a firm believer that NOONE should be subjected to hairy guys in fishnets without a personal request first.

Results? I'm now another 'renegade folkie', with no compunctions about blending the tune for 'The Bollweevil' into the tune for "Blister in the Sun" (Just lookin' for a hooooooome, he's just lookin' for a home, Lookin' for a hooooooome...)

It's all different paths. Some of us follow them back to the basis for them, and others go the other way without ever looking back...

Sean

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Peg
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:39 AM

hesperis; I agree: penisheads like that DO give conscientious witches/pagans a bad name...but if he is a "real" practitioner I am sure he has suffered for this sort of behavior...

Challis: that sounds hilarious! Wish I could see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Nemesis
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 07:34 PM

Re. Hesperis' post - did anyone see the BBC2 doc. last week about The Arcane Wizards who all seem to have met up at catering College - Top w***er was boasting how he had hexed people and made their life a misery. The funniest tho' were all the sly visual jokes the BBC had slipped in e.g. interviewing "Orpheus" on an Underground train; best was a very earnest discussion on the origins of modern hermetic magic in front of a fairground sign of Mickey Mouse (as the Sorcerer's Apprentice)

Cheers ChaliceRaven

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: hesperis
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 06:19 PM

Noreen - you were close. Grape juice, actually. (I detest green jello.)

I co-wrote a song with a goth friend once. She wrote the lyrics and I wrote the melody. It's a pretty cool song. Unfortunately, her boyfriend hated me... because we were going to start a band with one other person, and she told him that he would be the sound guy without telling the rest of the band, and he tried to take the thing over and I wouldn't let him. He was a goth, a pagan, and a druid, and he started going on about how he was more powerful than I was, and that he could kill me magically and it wouldn't even show... fun, eh? I told him that of course he could do that, and he dropped the issue. But it kinda broke up the band, as he didn't want her coming near me, because I saw right through him.

It really sucks when those with magical power refuse to take responsibility for the proper use of it. It gives us all a bad name.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Peg
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 06:14 PM

I go to goth shows in Boston fairly often; gotta have somewhere to wear my vintage Edwardian black clothing...I dress in sort of a romantic goth look (lace, some color in with the black, vintage, leather, not vinyl)

I do have very goth hair I am told (no I do not dye it black) and am pale-skinned enough to pull it off...

In my exotic dancer days I wore a lot of black lace...

Goth is mostly about music and fashion, but there are some who live it as a lifestyle...some of them very interesting folks...some of them pretentious gits.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 06:02 PM

Ah well - getting into the swing of things. I'm halfway down a bottle of something I can't pronounce (coz it's Scotish..;-)) and feeling decidedly gothic. Well, I've gone very pale with black under my eyes anyway....

Love and kisses all. Looking forward to Whitby.

veaD het noGme

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 12:40 PM

The children of the night...what music they make! Mwahhh-ha-haaaaa!

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 11:57 AM

Oh, I love Dead Can Dance! ("Shakes" the barley, Rana, "shakes" it!)*G*

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 11:46 AM

Only group I've seen which had a fair number of goths (as well as folks who looked like pirates) in the audience was Dead Can Dance.

They are still one of my favourite bands (seen them 3 times in Toronto - pity they seem to have broken up) and seem to have a very cross-over audience - certain tracks could be considered folky (to answer one point above) - they do The Wind that bends the Barley, for instance.

Rana

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 11:46 AM

Like acting, music etc, the whole goth thing is essentially about showing off.

Never thought of it that way, EJ, but I reckon you are onto something there. I am, basicaly, an exhibitionist at heart. Why else would I do the Pace-Egg play, get involved in Morris and, to a lesser extent, sing at the folk club even if I'm not that good at it? I don't think it is purely for the attention as I feel no need for attention or recognition in any other way. I think it is just the way I am.

I also find that at folk festivals, the goth weekend, morris dance days and so on I feel comfortable. Is it because they are full of like minded people? Perhaps any of mudcats phsycologists would like to comment???

Before I get too serious though perhaps it is equaly because all these activities involve partaking in large quantities of the amber nectar??? I have never seen or heard of any trouble at any festivals of this type though. Perhaps the authorities have it wrong! Instead of banning drinking at football matches etc make all the fans wear make up, wooly jumpers and morris bells instead!!! Could be onto something here...;-)

Werther de Goethe

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 11:01 AM

Now mind you, I DO like JJ72 and Placebo!

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: English Jon
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 10:59 AM

Goth and theatre are of course strongly linked... Bauhaus etc. Like acting, music etc, the whole goth thing is essentially about showing off.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: Caitrin
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 10:41 AM

I did the Goth "I am a tortured artist" thing a bit in ninth grade--I just kinda got bored with being tortured. Now I still wear a lot of black, but it's mostly because half of the clothes I own are used for working crew in theatre.
I did have a rather fun time at a Goth club I went to in Cambridge, MA, when I was visiting a friend up there. And Susan, a lot of the people in the Goth club scene here are only Goth on the weekends. They do it for fun or fashion or entertainment and then go back to their regular lives the rest of the time. There are also a lot of people who always live in their Goth persona--some of them are really cool interesting people who have chosen Goth as their way of life, and some of them are pretentious "tortured artists" who need to grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Goths outthere?
From: English Jon
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 10:37 AM

Fair enough. Nothing to do with eating their own young then?