Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges

Subject: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 01:33 PM

Here is a breaking news item, it may not be the talk of the town where you are, but it is here is the Washington, DC area. Though it is not exactly music related, there is no way I could see putting it up as a BS thread. I put it here for you comments and consideration--I am particularly interested in what those of you who were there have to say--

Published Wednesday April 25, 2001

Civilian Deaths in 1969 Assault Still Pain Kerrey BY C. DAVID KOTOK

COPYRIGHT ©2001 OMAHA WORLD-HERALD

Bob Kerrey is confronting another wound from Vietnam - one that left him with no physical scars but did leave Vietnamese women, children and old men dead.

Kerrey expressed anguish Tuesday over a nighttime assault he led Feb. 25, 1969, along the Mekong Delta. It left only civilians dead with no weapons captured or Viet Cong soldiers among the casualties his squad inflicted.

The heroics by Kerrey 17 days later remain an oft-told story of the action that cost him his right leg below the knee and earned him a Medal of Honor, the nation's highest military commendation.

Now, 32 years later, another tale of war has emerged - one the former two-term senator and Nebraska governor had hoped never to speak of.

"I'm not emotionally able to give you all the details," Kerrey said by telephone from New York, where he now serves as president of the New School University in New York.

One detail stands out. Kerrey was awarded a Bronze Star "for heroic achievement" for his actions Feb. 25, with a citation that refers to "twenty-one Viet Cong killed, two hootches (huts) destroyed and two enemy weapons captured."

Kerrey said late Tuesday, "the citation is different than what we reported" to military superiors.

His report, Kerrey said, referred to the civilian casualties. Even so, his superiors allowed him to continue to run the squad and later recommended him for the Medal of Honor for his actions March 14.

Kerrey had been in Vietnam since January 1969. He was a 25-year-old lieutenant leading an elite seven-man squad from the Navy's sea, air and land unit, known as the SEALs. The unconventional warfare unit specialized in capturing enemy officials.

Now is a particularly awkward time for Kerrey to tell friends, family and the public about what had been an unspeakable

memory of war. He has just begun a new career. He recently married writer Sarah Paley. They are expecting a child in October.

In addition, his name continues to pop up on lists of potential Democratic presidential candidates in 2004.

But he has been forced to speak now of the events by a former member of his SEAL squad, Gerhard Klann. Klann's account conflicts with Kerrey's version of events - that probable Viet Cong civilian sympathizers were inadvertently caught in a firefight during an assault on a suspected Viet Cong stronghold.

The squad was not looking to shoot at just any human life, Kerrey said. On two occasions, Kerrey said, he refused missions where civilians in Viet Cong-controlled areas had been the targets. In this case, intelligence suggested that a Viet Cong district meeting was to take place in the huts, Kerrey said.

Mike Ambrose of Houston, the top enlisted man in the squad, said Tuesday that he fully supported Kerrey's account. "We had a bad night," he said. "The result of the action was unfortunate."

Klann declined Tuesday to tell The World-Herald his version of the mission.

Knowing that Klann's version of events was bound to become public, Kerrey spoke out about that night for the first time in a speech last Wednesday at an ROTC leadership seminar on the campus of Virginia Military Institute.

Had it not been for Klann, an experienced member of Kerrey's squad who eventually completed 20 years with the elite Navy unit, Kerrey said, he never would have spoken of the civilians' deaths.

"I lived with this privately for 32 years," Kerrey said. "I felt it best to keep this memory private. I can't keep it private any more. My conscience tells me some good should come from this."

While acknowledging that Klann "tells a completely different version," Kerrey offered this account to The World-Herald and in his ROTC speech:

The seven-man squad, six enlisted men with Kerrey as the lone officer, operated out of Cam Ranh Bay along the coast. Kerrey chose to go on a mission to a free-fire zone, an area that had been cleared of civilians by the U.S. military and where anyone remaining was assumed to be the enemy.

This mission in the Mekong Delta was near Thanh Phu, also referred to a Than or Tanh Phu, Secret Zone. "The squad faced considerable danger," based on intelligence reports on the secret zone - another name for a free-fire zone.

Kerrey flew over the area to get a better idea of the terrain before the action.

"We entered two hours after sunset on a dark and moon-less night. It was the most risky mission I had led in my short time in country. My greatest fear was that some mistake on my part would end in the death of my men," he said.

When in doubt, Kerrey knew from his training, he was to use lethal force. "When we received fire (during the approach to the suspected Viet Cong post), we returned fire. But when the fire stopped, we found that we had killed only women, children and older men. It was not a military victory. It was a tragedy, and I had ordered it."

His strong belief that those slain that night were, at the least, Viet Cong sympathizers, has not helped. "Though it could be justified militarily, I could never make my own peace with what happened that night. I have been haunted by it for 32 years."

Ambrose said his recollection was identical to Kerrey's. The intelligence was thought to be good, Ambrose said. In the dark, enemy fire was met with fire, he said.

In the flash of rounds, no one could see who was in the area, Ambrose said. He assumed later that the Viet Cong were firing from behind the women, children and older men and then escaped.

"Bob's account is absolutely accurate," Ambrose said. "Unfortunately, the results weren't something we were proud of."

At 19 or 20 years old, Ambrose said, he and the others were not concerned with the big picture. "We were just operating and carrying out our mission and hoping to get out of there in one piece," he said.

The account of events that day are quite different in the official Bronze Star citation contained in Kerrey's official Navy biography obtained from the Naval Historical Center in Washington, D.C.

That citation, which Kerrey said he did not prepare, said Kerrey's squad returned fire "killing 14 Viet Cong." Then, as the squad waited to be evacuated, they came under fire again and killed seven more Viet Cong.

Ambrose said he did not recall that account and stuck with Kerrey's version. He said he was unaware that Kerrey had received a Bronze Star for action on that mission.

For many Americans old enough to recall the events of the Vietnam War, the thought of slain women, children and old men with American soldiers standing over them conjures recollections of My Lai, the execution of Vietnamese civilians by an Army platoon in March 1968.

But accidental civilian casualties are a part of war and were known to have occurred in Vietnam.

American military and intelligence units, along with South Vietnamese forces, were particularly aggressive in 1969 in trying to destroy the Viet Cong in their Mekong Delta strongholds south of Saigon.

The Viet Cong, or the guerrilla units made up of southern Vietnamese supplied by the northern communist regime, was viewed as vulnerable because of losses suffered during the 1968 Tet offensive.

The Phoenix Program, a controversial and effective effort "to neutralize" Viet Cong political operators and sympathizers, was under way. The U.S. Navy embarked on SEALORDS to aggressively disrupt enemy supply lines out of Cambodia by interdiction deep into the Viet Cong-controlled Delta region.

The Army's 1st Battalion, 9th Infantry fought the Battle of Thanh Phu against a dug-in Viet Cong unit on March 11, 1969.

Dwight Daigle of New Orleans, who served three tours in Vietnam as a Navy SEAL, said free-fire zones were just that and civilians should not have been in them. "Anybody in there were not our guys," Daigle said.

Women, youngsters and older men in Viet Cong-held areas typically were "couriers, mules and weapons tenders," Daigle said.

Daigle, who served in Kerrey's platoon but not in his squad, trained with Klann, roomed with him and had Klann stand up for him at his wedding. During all their conversations over the years, Daigle said, Klann never spoke to him about the action with the civilian casualties.

Another member of Kerrey's squad, Lee 'Doc' Schrier, said he had talked to his former squad leader and other members of the unit, with the exception of Klann. He said he understands there is a disagreement between Kerrey's and Klann's accounts but is not taking sides.

"I don't have any animosity to anybody - at this moment," Schrier said. "We wouldn't be in these kinds of messes if people wouldn't talk."

Just two years ago, Schrier, Daigle, Klann and other platoon members joined Kerrey in Washington to plant a tree near the Capitol. They were marking the 30th anniversary of the action for which Kerrey was awarded the Medal of Honor. Klann is shown in a picture with his hand on Kerrey's right shoulder.

When asked for his recollection of the killings, Klann said he did not want to discuss it further.

"Everybody's just taking things out of context," said Klann, whose account set off inquiries by CBS News and a writer for the New York Times. Neither news outlet has aired an account of Klann's version of events.

Kerrey said that the last time he talked to Klann the conversation ended abruptly.

As he tries to translate his public admissions into something positive, Kerrey said, "it hurts like hell."

Kerrey reminds himself that in 1969 he was only 25 years old, younger than his son, Ben. War, by its nature involves "killing people in such a brutal fashion you don't want to do it."

"I have said publicly, 'sometimes it is harder to kill for your country than to die for it,'" Kerrey said. In his mind when he has made that statement are the deaths of the women, children and old men.

Perhaps, Kerrey said, people need a reminder of the destructiveness of war "in this modern era where all the talk is of over the horizon weapons and smart bombs."

No matter how difficult the memories, they have not transformed him into a pacifist, he said. "Some times evil will not yield and, then, the end justifies the means."

World-Herald staff writers Paul Goodsell and Jake Thompson contributed to this report.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 01:44 PM

Thanks for posting this.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 01:55 PM

I would like to point out that the Viet Cong were in the habit of retrieving weapons, dead comrades, and hiding them under, in and around hootches in very elaborate tunnel systems, leaving the appearance of non combatant bodies in field. They also murdered US soldiers who were wounded and captured. There were repeated occasions where the NVA dug up recently deceased (from disease)bodies of civilians Women, Children, Old men, etc; and blew them appart with grenades. Then sprinkled cattle blood on them, took photos and used them to accuse US troops of atrocities. Not to mention they regularly murdered teachers, priests, village officials, and non communist dissidents; and used them the same way. To accuse the US of murder in that war, is exactly the opposite of the "kettle calling the pot black". Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 02:09 PM

What do I learn from this? Do I learn that another act took place and has now come to light? Sure, but it surprises no one and the longer we get away from that time, the more will come to light. No, that's not it.

I learn once again that courage comes in all forms and at various times. Bob Kerrey shows as much courage now as he did in winning the Medal of Honor. For any thinking person, this ought to enhance him as a presidential candidate, though sadly, it probably won't.

Like many, Bob Kerrey grew up in a time of blacks and whites and those of us in our 50's appreciate the feeling. We grew up in a time when the good guys wore white hats. As we came of age it became somewhat clearer that we were pawns on a chessboard and the blacks and whites had turned to all differing shades of gray. We coped with it as best we could then and we have done so since. Bob Kerrey has done the same. No one should be ashamed of the actions that took them places they now wish they had never been if they acted with the courage of their convictions then. Kerrey did this because of the way he grew up and what he was taught. He navigated the "grays" to the best lights he had at the time.

Today he is doing the same through the filter of history and age. I can find nothing but that same courage in him today. We cannot go back but we can always remember and the pain of the memories make us more determined to pass on the history we know.......lest it happen to our children and grandchildren.

You got my vote Bob.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 02:21 PM

Right On Spaw!

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 02:47 PM

Dave,

I am sorry if my headline for this seemed in anyway accusatory--I was just trying to figure some way of expressing what the article was about--

Personally, I think a man who protects the lives of six other people when his own life is on the line rates a bit higher than another man who protests the war till he gets a high draft lottery number, and then loses interest--but people tell me I am little quirky--

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 02:55 PM

I can only imagine how much something like this must haunt Bob Kerrey, and others who were in similar situations (on all sides). I think Kerrey's comments towards the end of the article are worth taking to heart. Although I served in the US military for eight years, I was fortunate to never have to participate in a war. But those who have, like Kerrey, know what a truly horrific business it is. The rest of us need to remember that, so that before the flags start waving and the bands start playing, we work like hell to find alternatives to the madness.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 03:08 PM

M Ted. No problem mate, glad you posted it. I was just trying to point out that it was not uncommon for the dead to be stripped of weapons, and left in the field to create that immage. Women and Old Men fought too. Young Children were used as couriers and ammo carriers. I think Bob was duped into believing these people were innocent civilians. I doubt it, after all where did the hostile fire come from? Murder? Innocent? Not Bloody Likely! A tragedy? of course it was, as is all war/violence. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 03:18 PM

.........are there still landmines in Vietnam?

Subject: war sucks...
From: cait
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 03:21 PM

definitely a male thread...it's as if women don't feel the right to raise their voices about something they had little to do with. but, don't they, really?

women and children have always been the 'innocent' victims of war. why do i say innocent? because it's not our thing, we're trying to raise our children, giving them the right vitamins, getting their teeth straightened and worrying over their upbringing...for why? to send them off as cannon fodder? imagine trying to do your nurturing thing in the middle of a goddamn war.

not bloody likely.

why am i against the idea of women in combat? not for the conventional reasons, if men can't handle themselves around women that's their problem...i'm against people in combat.

call me a dreamer...

*caiti*

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: LR Mole
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 03:46 PM

But you're not the only one...

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 03:48 PM

I am ploughing my way through a book by Pilger at the moment and it depresses the hell out of me. Seems on every page there is a new insight. If I have to go war, I would like to know the real reasons behind that war first, and I hope the poor bastards trying to kill me will know why they are there too. Any of you read Pilgers book???

Who is Tom Paxton anyhow? On the radio right now there is some mention that his songs were not popular with officialdom, are they good

roger

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 04:06 PM

Enter Tom Paxton in the search box.........lots of stuff. Basically, he is a war vet and one of the greatest songwriters to emerge from the folk scare of the 60's. His breadth and girth of material is remarkable and his songs are second to none....on almost every subject. Roger, you say......

If I have to go war, I would like to know the real reasons behind that war first, and I hope the poor bastards trying to kill me will know why they are there too.

Go back and read some of the other threads on Vietnam.....like Songs of the Vietnam period......and you'll see that what made VietNam different was that many young people came to the realization at different times that perhaps the government we trusted and believed in and had been honorable in other wars, was somehow not telling the truth anymore. We grew up believing in our country and knew the stories of WWII, of Ira Hayes and Audie Murphy amd all those folks like our parents who fought that war. That's the black and white we knew. Suddenly it seemed the blacks and whites were all grays and like the good fans of Davy Crockett that we were, we knew "a man has to do what he thinks is right." In a variety of different ways we did and made choices as 18 or 20 year olds based on what we knew and what we were seeing. Its no accident that there is more post traumatic stress from that war than any other. Read what you wrote and think about the end result.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 04:30 PM

I know what I am saying may cause great offence, yet non is meant, but the country was trashed for what exactly?

......Martha Gellhorn ...

........She was among the first to identify the Vietnam atrocity as "a new kind of war" against civilians. "Is this an honourable way," she wrote, "for a great nation to fight a war 8,000 miles from its safe homeland?" For this, the American press suppressed her articles and the US military saw to it that she was banned from south Vietnam. She was too dangerous. She was a truthful witness on the side of the underdog............

John Pilger

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Hollowfox
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 04:33 PM

Y'know, Spaw, I have yet to meet anybody who served in Vietnam who didn't get messed up by it some way or another.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 04:51 PM

...OK so I have just been told that its Cambodia where they are still clearing up the cluster bombs - which are still blowing peoples limbs off.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 05:07 PM

I still see the pretty young man with blond hair and blue eyes who used to dress all in white and follow me around the campus adoringly. He was dead less than a week after setting foot in Viet Nam.

I wonder if we will ever get the whole truth about Viet Nam...

No child of mine, no grandchild of mine will ever go to war to defend anything but American soil and maybe Canada. Narrow thinking and stupid? I agree. But I don't trust our politicians to spend the lives of our children wisely or honestly.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Allan C.
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 05:29 PM

Hollowfox, I have yet to meet anyone who lived through the Vietnam War years who wasn't messed up by it one way or another. Some actually were there. Some were killed there. Some had friends, family, neighbors who served there and for whom many prayers and about whom many worries were had. Some were doing all they could to end the war. Some were doing all they could to indicate their lack of support for it. Some ate their TV dinners and tried to pretend that the evening news reports didn't bother them. Some were happy to be able to have continued with college in order to evade the draft. Some were already in the armed services and wondered if they would be transferred from their stateside duties to a tour in Vietnam.

The list goes on and on. We were all touched by the war. It messed up all of us.

I know for certain that there are far more horrific stories than the one cited here that remain untold. I bear no malice toward those who were there. I thank each and every one of them for what they endured. War is horrible. It should be. If it were nicer, we'd have a lot more of them.

My favorite teeshirt quote from the war years was:

Suppose they gave a war and nobody came?

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 05:35 PM

Roger, You posted this:

Martha Gellhorn ...

........She was among the first to identify the Vietnam atrocity as "a new kind of war" against civilians. "Is this an honourable way," she wrote, "for a great nation to fight a war 8,000 miles from its safe homeland?" For this, the American press suppressed her articles and the US military saw to it that she was banned from south Vietnam. She was too dangerous. She was a truthful witness on the side of the underdog............

And it occurs to me that the best response to it is to say that you cannot be both a truthful witness and also take a side, even if it is that of "the underdog"--

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 06:19 PM

War is hell - hey I'm not to blame...

(Is that correct Dylan quoting)

Sounds awful anyway. Just we could all live with each other and so avoid these atrocities anyway.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 06:27 PM

I'm sure Korea was no different than any other "conflict" (it was never officially a war) but unless you were at one time or another on the front and at the thick of things, you will NEVER realize that in war you kill things before they kill you. And when you are 19 the power to live is rather strong. Therefore, you kill things. They may be animals who make the wrong kind of noise or they may be people. And believe me, at that moment you DO NOT check their ID to see if they are military or civilian. Instead you do what you think you have to do to stay alive. Then you find out you shot 2 soldiers and a ten year old kid. Do you really think you are ever going to share that bit of information with anyone?? Do you ever wonder why some ex GI's are drunks?? Can you really blame them for being angry for doing the dirty work of national leaders who got them to join for God and Country and then found out those were code names for the very rich?? Do you really think the people who got this country involved in the wars give a good goddamn about a few of the poor "lower class" that died??

And when you get back "home" you have two choices. Let it destroy you and those around you, or bury it so deep it NEVER comes to the surface, not even to one single other human being, and live your life as though you never served in the military.

Except when you can be anonymous on mudcat.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 06:42 PM

Allan......BINGO.....Well put.

Guest.....I couldn't agree more and have writtenvirtually the same thing in other threads. If we both have guns and you are out there to kill me, I'm going to try to kill you first...........it's survival. If I am asked to do this, then I think somebody owes me a damn good explanation of why I'm there in the first place. During VietNam, it came to most of us at different times.......some before they went, some when they were there, some when they got home, and some many years later.

It's time to let VietNam go...........not to forget, but to let it go. We hope we have learned, we probably haven't.......we should not forget.........but its time to let it go.

Spaw

Spaw

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: DougR
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 06:58 PM

I don't know what good purpose reporting stories like this serves. I believe it is only one of perhaps hundreds of similar events that took place in every war ever thought.

I think former Senator Kerry is a fine many who served his country well, in the military and in the United States Senate. The only reason, it would seem to me, to report this story is to discredit him in some way. I think it's a shame. The burden of carrying such a load is punishment enough.

DougR

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 07:52 PM

M. Ted--

By my periodization, there was only one massacre in Viet Nam. It started when the Japanese left in '45 and slackened up a bit when Saigon fell in '75. I don't want to be understood as trying to justify this mess, but I think there was one thing about 'the Nam' as opposed to other more conventional wars that promoted this kind of tragedy. Namely, a lot more of our casualties were from booby traps, snipers, etc., which gave you no target for return fire. Sooner or later, people taking damage from unseen enemies take it out on whoever is handy. Maybe the mental process is parallel to what domestic abusers do in their heads. The scary part to me is the willingness of higher commanders, whose asses were not directly on the line, to rationalize, ignore, deny, and/or misinterpret such incidents in the name of body count. Behind them are civilians who think a "just" war is possible and who believe war can and should be conducted like football, with rules, referees, and all body parts cordially labelled and returned after the last shot is fired. The whole thing is a such a drekky mess that even a "gentleman's war" would be obscene.

C.C. The entertainer formerly known as "Yellow Two Six," in Phan Thiet City, 1969-70.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 08:00 PM

Surely the real point here isn't that there was a massacre of non-combatants, but that the people who carried it out, without meaning to, reported what had happened honestly, and it was covered up by a lying war-machine for political reasons, and they've kept it covered up all these years, like they have kept far worse things covered up.

The people who pulled the triggers were young men obeying orders and in fear of their lives. The people who told the lies and ordered the cover-up, and gave the orders were sitting in offices, safe and warm and a long way from the shooting. Making up euphemisms like "collateral damage" that helped people like Timothy McVeigh psych himself up for his freelance massacre.

"We wouldn't be in these kinds of messes if people wouldn't talk." That's completely the wrong way about. The best hope of keeping out of those kind of messes is for the truth to come out. (And aside from that cover-ups and denying the truth causes enormous damage to vets who got caught up in this kind of thing. But the authorities don't give a damn about what happens to them.)

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 08:43 PM

I'm sorry, I don't follow this. Bob Kerrey killed women and children and got a medal for it, and never said a word for 35 years. And now he is courageous. Please. The rest of the article is full of old tired familiar lies as if no one has learned anything: The Phoenix Project, "clearing civilians", "effectively neutralize", "Viet Cong political operators and sympathizers", i.e. the people of Southern Vietnam. Where is Robert McNamara when you want someone to throw up on?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 08:55 PM

You're right Peter. So is Spaw. So is Allan. I feel like I am pulling scabs off a wound that had finally begun to heal. And it isn't the first time.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From:
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 10:32 PM

whoever said this isn't for women don't know the women I know. mg

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: DougR
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 10:45 PM

Peter T.; Sinsull, why can't you give it up! The war is over! Bob Kerry did nothing wrong. McGrath is right. If a wrong was done, it was done by the military command. And who knows, perhaps those civilians WERE actively involved as Viet Cong! We'll never know. But digging up this stuff thirty or so years after it happened is crappy in my opinion. What do you think should be done to Kerry? Should charges be brought against him? Should we hang him?

Jeeze! DougR

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 11:01 PM

I spent seventeen years in the navy. My war was with Iraq and all the little piss ant actions inbetween Vietnam and Iraq. I don't know that i would have said anything in Senator Kerry's place even 35 years after the fact. There is crap my wife doesn't know and it is likely i will never tell her. I don't think she needs to know that her husband had to clean someones brains off his face after they got stupid for one second and that was peace time. I sure the hell don't think I would be telling people. "Oh Gee, we got in a fire fight and capped civilians" We don't know what went through. It like every war was ugly. Maybe uglier than some but they all are including the Gulf War. It took courage to go and do your duty. Conversely, the people who went to jail rather than go to Vietnam were also courageous in their own way. The ones who gall me are the ones who fled to Canada or parts futher extant and think themselves martyrs. The marytrs are the fifty some odd thousand that died fighting a war that was in my personal opinion the wrong war for uncaring, incompetent politicians who had no better goal or strategy than to "Stop Communism" That ain't a goal that's a bumper sticker. Unfortunately they came home to a hostile populous after spending a minimum of thirteen months in a hostile fire zone. So I'll tell you what, if Bob Kerry runs for president, I'll vote for him and I'll salute him and mean it when I do. I believe he did his best in a horrific situation and if it took thirty some odd years to tell his story, that is no ones business but his. He's done well as a senator and I think he is a basically honest guy. Kindest reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: DougR
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:04 AM

Neil, I was with you until you got to the part where you anoint those who went to jail as courageous, rather than go to Vietnam. Didn't they go to jail to ensure their safety?

Why do you feel they are as courageous as those who did go? I'm really curious. Frankly, I have no recollection of any of the protesters going to jail anyway. I thought they all fled to Canada.

DougR

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: paddymac
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:58 AM

I wonder if this story would ever have "broken" if it had not involved a prominent personage? SEAL teams, and their counterparts in other branches, aren't trained to be altar boys. The one's who shoot first and ask questions later have a greater probability of surviving, and survival is what it's all about at the personal level.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Bert
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:12 AM

Doug, I thought that Mohammed Ali Went to jail. And there must have been others.
Also I remember the 'conchies' in WWII, they suffered tremendous humiliation for their beliefs (even after the war). I certainly wouldn't have been brave enough to do what they did. I would have much preferred to have taken my chances on the battlefield. But fortunately for me I never had that choice. Too young for WWII and Korea, and deferred until Britain had gotten over their involvement in Cyprus and Aden.

Which would you prefer, take a chance at getting shot or know with certainty that you will be reviled as a coward because you are a pacifist? Of course, if you are NOT a pacifist and have not seen what they have suffered then you may have a different opinion.

I admire Big Mick a lot. He went out there and lived the horror of it, and came back and can still respect those who disagreed with the war. Now that takes honesty and courage.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 08:35 AM

I never served in a war, so maybe I don't have a right to say much about this. But I believe that all wars are horrible, and that this kind of stuff happens in all of them. That includes World War II ("The Good War"), Korea, the Gulf War, and any others people care to mention. The Vietnam War had its own unique aspects, of course, but let's not fall into the trap of believing that Vietnam was some sort of anomaly in that respect. I think this is the point Kerrey is making in some of his remarks -- it is a brutal, chaotic, horrifying affair, no matter who the enemy is or how well justified our involvement is.

If the purpose of bringing this up is to castigate and humiliate the participans all these years later, I would say we shouldn't bother. The only value in bringing it up is if it reminds us what war really is, so we can renew our determination to avoid it. Myths about "clean" wars are just that -- myths. If you believe that we have ever fought a war without descending to this level of brutality, you've been sold a bill of goods. While I respect the pacifists among us, I'm not saying that we should never fight in any wars. But let's recognize the beast for what it is, rather than try to pretend that the horror of Vietnam was unique.

Sherman, who was well acquainted with war, said it best over a hundred years ago: "War is hell." We've just been given another example so we can ponder what those three words really mean.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Dahlin
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 09:39 AM

How many centuries wil it take for us to realize that there is never a just or clean war.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 09:59 AM

DougR - You misunderstood what I posted. I agreed with PeterT - Kerry didn't deserve a medal for killing women and children; I also agreed with Spaw - It's time to put it behind us, not forget but move on,; and I agreed with Allan - everyone was touched by Viet Nam and no one is the better for it. As far as I am concerned, Kerry's experiences make him the ideal candidate for the presidency if only because he will think long and hard before committing our young people to war. Kerry did nothing wrong. Neither did Calley. Both were betrayed by bureaucrats.

You said: "But digging up this stuff thirty or so years after it happened is crappy in my opinion"...that is exactly what I meant by picking scabs. Let it heal and let the scar serve as a reminder.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 10:12 AM

I believe it's terribly unfair to assert that the people who went to jail rather than serve in the war did so to save themselves. Maybe some did. Maybe some got their dad's to get them positions in the national guard for the same reason.

Then again, maybe those who chose to go to jail had come to the realization that the war was wrong. Maybe they decided "not to show up" because they knew that to be the only way to put an end to this war, and possibly to all war. Maybe.

It is not for us to judge people who made choices during a very difficult time, unless their subsequent behavior betrays them as hypocrites or cowards. That goes for those who served, those who stayed home and those who chose expatriation. We all live with the knowledge of the choices we have made. Senator Kerry has had to live with a lot more than a fool like me. He faced a lot more, that's for sure. I wish he would have spoken about this before he was forced to (this has been done to head off a magazine article on the subject, you know), but I'm sure he had his reasons not to. Most men who serve honorably don't relish talking about their experiences at the front. He has lived well in his public life and I admire him for facing up to his sense of duty during the war, during his time in congress and today.

Bart

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Hollowfox
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 10:44 AM

The one C.O. I know who went to jail rather than Vietnam went to jail because of his beliefs. Unlike others I know, he was not allowed to do alternative service (work in a hospital, etc), and was sent from Minnesota to a "hard-time" prison in Texas. I don't know why this was, perhaps he was being made an "example" for other potential C.O.'s. He was a man of principle, and although I haven't seen him for some time, I know from mutual friends and from his published writings that he still is.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 10:56 AM

Doug R, I did not bring the war back up again, I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy involved. Why should this be let lie?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 11:15 AM

Well Doug my friend (and I would hope you still are).......I suppose your attitude toward what the motives of people were is still pretty common, but I think it's invalid and not based on any certain knowledge....just a leftover, as is the story of Sen. Kerrey. You were possibly on a hiatus when we ran this thread. Read it...and though I would not expect it to change your inner feelings, perhaps it will give you some insights to what was happening then.

I did not go to prison to be safe. Safe isn't a word anyone who has been to prison would use to describe it. Peterburg Federal Prison was not a safe place. My motives are outlined clearly in the other thread, but let me reiterate here that many DID choose to try to effect change by making the strongest statement we could at the time. Did it do any good? In hindsight, I still cannot say or even know. Courage did not enter into the decision and I would submit that it did not enter into the decisions that anyone made back then!

(From the other thread)
Back then I was as American as you got. For whatever made the place really suck (and the government was a start) it was still home and I felt a duty to it. Duty in my case took on a different meaning, but it was still a problem that stemmed from somewhere I loved and had not given up on.

I'd also like to change the thought process a bit as some of us looked at the situation then and other situations too, not as something worth dying for, but was (and is) it something worth killing for? That was at the heart of my thinking then and still remains so today. I am not necessarily a pacifist, though I admire many. However, if you have a gun and I have a gun and we're stalking each other, rest assured I am going to do my damndest to kill you first. This is what young people are asked to do in any war. I came to the belief that there was nothing worth killing for about VietNam. Others came to a similar realization after they were there and hence the abundant cases of post traumatic stress. Others wars are different and each one must be decided by the people involved.....Is it worth killing for? If you are going to put me in the situation of killing someone else before they kill me, you better have a damn good reason so I can live with myself afterwards.

When I refused to play and was arrested, the sentences were running at 5 years, out in about 3. By the time I was sentenced, it was down to 3 years and out in 18 months. After serving 7 months at Petersburg, it was reduced to 15 months and out in 6, so I was paroled. A short time later, they were down to a year and out in 3-6 months. We were a pain in the ass to the government! But if more had done it, could they have withstood the pain?

I would say once again, it is time to let it go.....not forget, but to let it go. We owe what we learned to our children...........and I hope we learned well. Perhaps we didn't.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:25 PM

I think CP's experience did good, simply because the whole experience will not, and should not be let go. It is continuing to be used as a touchstone of practically everything in American politics, and the rest of the world has to watch this psychodrama being played out. That generation, for better or worse, is now taking on the reins of supreme political power in the world. John McCain nearly became president because of the aura of being a prisoner; we have already heard about Bob Kerry's presidential prospects; the situation in Kosovo and much of the world now depends on Colin Powell's version of what America learned in Vietnam. And many lessons have been learned totally perversely: What is American doing in Colombia?

America is now more or less a global military empire, and so the ethics of the military and the war and who did what to whom are absolutely crucial, in part because as far as I can tell none of the subsequent military adventures seem to have taught anyone anything, because humiliation is the only way very powerful people are forced to face reality.

I wish it weren't so, but it won't be let go: in the same way that World War II ruled the next generation, and World War I the generation before that. The lessons learned were often wrong, misguided, and so on. But that can only be helped by the presentation of things that make people unhappy, and wreck the neatness of the story. Like people going to jail, or going to Canada. Or finding yourself a week after landing in the middle of nowhere walking into a hut where you have just killed 14 women and chidren.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:34 PM

A couple things, just to be clear, this former Senator Robert Kerrey of Nebraska we are talking about--not Senator John Kerry of Massachussetts, who was the Captain of a gunboat in the Mekong Delta and returned to fight against the war himself--oddly enough, he seems to have also received the silver star, bronze star, and purple heart--

To those who want to put this behind and move on, I have a bit of bad news--as the years go on, you will be hearing more about this all, not less--the memories return with age, and on occasion, things that seem to have been left behind can become as vivid as if they had happened yesterday--There is no getting away from any of it--

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: DougR
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:48 PM

Bert: of course you are right, Ali did go to jail, and there must have been others. I had not read the thread Spaw just posted (but I will) so I didn't know he was among those who was one of them.

Spaw: of course I still consider you a friend! We disagree on several points of view at times, but that doesn't affect my feeling of friendship for you. The same is true of Rick, Kendall, heck, probably the majority of my fellow mudcatters.

I was too young for WW2, just by a couple of years. I, and most of my friends were sorely disappointed that we were not born "in time" to participate in that war. There were C.O.s then too, but I didn't know any.

I volunteered for the Army under the selective service act of 1948, a short-lived law that allowed boys who joined the service during their eighteenth year to serve their military obligation with one year of active service and either four years in the active reserve, or six years in the inactive reserve. The act was short-lived because it was anticipated that a large number of volunteers would re-enlist when their one year of active service was up. As it turned out, almost nobody re-enlisted, even though we were offered advances in rank that prewar enlisted men had to serve many years in order to reach that rank. I joined with three of my buddies and we served with the 2nd Amored Division at Camp Hood (now Ft. Hood) Texas.

It was our intent to join the inactive reserve, but a scruffy old Colonel practically ordered us to join the National Guard in our hometown, and still fearful of high ranking officers, we did just that. For us, it was fortuitous decision.

My one year of active service erased any preconceived notions that war was glorius and glamorous. Night manuevers took care of that. Had we succeeded in joining the inactive reserve, when the Korean conflict begain, we would have been called immediately back to active duty, as were all of my former 2nd Armored Division buddies who became inactive reserves. I learned later that after a week or two of brush-up training, they were shipped to Korea, and most of them died in the Inchon landings.

The 36th Infantry Divison (Texas National Guard) was put on alert during the Korean conflict, but was not called up. Therefore, I was fortunate enough to serve five years of military service (four of them reserve) without becoming involved in any war.

Sorry for the thread creep, and for the length of this message, but I thought it might clarify my position if you knew the background. The point being that had my National Guard Division been called up, it never would have occurred to me, not to go. This was in the 1950s, and the attitudes of young people were much different than they were in the 1960s. Not saying it was better, just that it was different.

I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone with my comments. They are just my opinon.

Frankly, if Senator Kerry has presidential aspirations, as many believe he has, it is probably good that this thing came out now. By the time the campaign for President begins (a few weeks ago), it will be behind him.

Sorry again for the length, and for the creep.

DougR

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:55 PM

DougR: don't apologize, I read every word and wished it was longer. I didn't know about the 1948 act, and so it was good to learn about it, and to hear your experience.

I am from the post-vietnam generation (I was 13 when the war ended in 1975), and have never served in the military under any circumstances (I was in the NROTC for a year and a half, and then decided the Navy wasn't for me -- partly because I spent my entire 3c cruise seasick, and partly because of (what I saw as) the ingrained, systemic racism in the ship I was on).

I consider myself very lucky, and certainly don't consider it meritorious, that I have never had to be in a position to decide to take another human's life. And very grateful for those who have had to stand there, to protect the freedoms I hold so dear.

This all starts to sound a little treacly, but it's very sincere.

Alex

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:56 PM

Ted's second paragraph ties in exactly with PT's post and brings the experience from the personal to the global. And should we make it through the reins of power held by this generation, from what has the next learned? Perhaps it is as you say, without end. Geeziz.....I was in a pretty good mood when when I first got up this morning..................

Spaw

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:01 PM

Sorry, we cross posted Doug........Thanks for the background and the insights.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:32 PM

This is hard for a <40 year old to understand because their personal point of historical referrence understands communism to be no threat--something that, though not among the majority of mudcatters, was undecided 40 years ago.

DougR may be right that it's brought up just as a ploy of dirty politics but..if so..republicans have learned NOTHING in the last decade. There is no moral scandle so vile as to sway a democrat from voting democrat. The only moral, personal, or military scandle that has the possibility of gaining traction in today's politics is one involving a republican.

On the surface that may sound inflamatory but I think it's accurate. I can think of any number of shamed republicans and only one democrat (Don Rostenkowski) who ever payed a price for public scandle--maybe Hart..though he just didn't know that he could have continued..he just withdrew.

I had three older brothers drafted from '69-'72, one of whom went to VN. I would CO if given the same set of circustances, but I have the benefit of hindsight.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:52 PM

It is easy to look backwards, using as a frame of reference your personal biases on the issue instead of the experience of having been there. Comments on both sides of this issue from that type of perspective have very little validity in the debate on the character of the man. They may be valid in the orbit of theoretical or philosophical debate, but not in the broader debate of the times. My feelings on the conflict that was mine have been voiced elsewhere and have gotten more attention than they deserved. But let me say this about this act. It is horrific to ponder................and it happened more often than admitted. Not only that, but it happened in more than just the Vietname conflict. Young men, who yesterday were playing in fields and imagining the great things that they would do one day, are thrown into the maelstrom of combat, filled with a soup of patriotic upbringing, boot camp indoctrination, love of family and friends, fear, terror, revulsion..........and they react under the most horrific conditions one can imagine. Survival is paramount............and they react. Your own brothers did things that if you knew, you would be shocked. They did things that if you knew, you would be filled with pride. And then they came home, forever changed, carrying weights and burdens that none should be forced to carry. And there is no shedding the load. Then one must either walk the path, or begin the slow rot process of dying. Former Senator Kerry was clearly involved in an action that he must now carry throughout his existence. But to get the measure of the man, one must look at his entire life. One cannot isolate on this horrific time. It is but one page in a book. Books are for learning. This is an honorable man who paid a terrible price for his valor. He has since set about the business of trying to live a life that has merit. Perfect? Not by a long shot. I have many disagreements with his policies and actions. Respect him? You betcherfectinarse I do. I know of his valor and heart. Nam is now a book for learning..........the wise will read it. If you can find criminals........prosecute them. But leave the warriors alone. They have and continue to suffer enough.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: DougR
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:14 PM

John Hardly, I didn't mean to imply that the Republicans are behind the Kerry exposure. I don't think they are. I think some reporter saw an opportunity for an expose`. It may have even been brought to his/her attention by the one member of Kerry's squad whose story does not jibe with the Senator's and the balance of the team. Who knows. It probably will come out at some point where it all started.

I am a Republican, and have high regard for the former senator.

DougR

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: DougR
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:23 PM

Mick: you state your views so well. The only slight disagreement I have with your message is with the first couple of sentences. True, one who has not experienced a war cannot consider himself an expert on the subject. However, given the order to report for active duty back in 1951, I have absolutely no doubt but that I would have done so. How I would have acquitted myself in combat is something I will never know. I have often wondered though. Likely I would have found myself the deepest hole I could find, and burrowed in. I do not viewe myself as the Audie Murphy, Bob Kerry or Rambo type.

DougR