Thought for the day - April 29, 2001

Subject: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 12:07 AM

The isolation of the word no is often ignored in society. By isolation I mean when it is used to request privacy, to be let alone. Perhaps it is because so many of the masses feel so alone already...they cannot comprehend a desire to be truly free and apart.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 12:15 AM

Yes, kat. "NO" is perhaps the most misunderstood word in the language.....and I agree with your reasoning.
Why do people get hurt when the answer is No?
Why do people take No so personally?
No does not mean a lot of things.....it just means No.

I see it as the difference between "wait" and "stay" in dog commands......."wait" means, in a little while, something will happen.
"Stay" means--------DON'T DO ANYTHING!!

In my life, No usually means "wait", once in a great while it means "stay". Why can't humans be more like dogs?

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Amergin
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 12:20 AM

Well, let me see....it might be that alot of folks don't think much of themselves...so they (me included) take the word no to be a rejection.....even when it is not.....especially for those of us who have to work up the courage to ask a yes or no question....

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Gypsy
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 01:06 AM

Things to learn: "NO" is a complete sentance. It is okay to decline, just as it is okay to accept.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Micca
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 05:43 AM

I have always believed that freedom, real freedom is "I won't" or "No" anyone can say yes or be talked round to saying yes, but the luxury of being able to say "No, I dont want to do that",or "no, I wont agree to this" or "I am opposed to what you are trying to do, and will NOT turn the blind eye" That is freedom.
I measure degrees of freedom by what I can say No to, without coercion of any kind, or pressure to conform.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: RichM
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:11 AM

I'm curious...what kind of relationship do you want with other people, that a curt 'No' is enough?

Keep doing that, and you eventually won't have to say 'No' to anyone...

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 07:34 AM

Heinlein said it well. From "The Notebooks of Lazarus Long:"

Do not confuse "duty" with what other people expect of you; they are utterly different. Duty is a debt you owe to yourself to fulfill obligations you have assumed voluntarily. Paying that debt can entail anything from years of patient work to instant willingness to die. Difficult it may be, but the reward is self-respect.

But there is no reward at all for doing what other people expect of you, and to do so is not merely difficult, but impossible. It is easier to deal with a footpad than it is with the leech who wants "just a few minutes of your time, please -- this won't take long." Time is your total capital, and the minutes of your life are painfully few. If you allow yourself to fall into the vice of agreeing to such requests, they quickly snowball to the point where these parasites will use up 100 percent of your time -- and squawk for more!

So learn to say No -- and be rude about it when necessary.

Otherwise you will not have time to carry out your duty, or to do your own work, and certainly no time for love and happiness. The termites will nibble away your life and leave none of it for you.

(This rule does not mean that you must not do a favor for a friend, or even for a stranger. But let the choice be yours. Don't do it because it is "expected" of you.)

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 09:04 AM

Apart from rejection, etc., "no" is often coming up against reality, which people don't much like, while "yes" is often just one more bubble of possibility. Why all American movies have happy endings these days....yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Morticia
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 09:17 AM

Can a straight No be considered to then cut out a possible path of communication? Is it that people are afraid to use it, or afraid to hear it because it is non-negotiable and leaves them nothing to come back with? In negotiating privacy, or anything else I need, I find a contractual arrangement and acknowledgement of another's position more useful,e.g. I know you want me to do this, but I need to do something else, can we agree I will do it at a later time, or in part, or not at all but can offer you this instead? This is hopelessly social workery of me I know, but it seems to work.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 09:58 AM

Morticia, that works for people who'll take "no" for an answer. First response is no, a statement of understanding and a reason. Often people take that as a willingness to discuss, and further statements may just be "No."

In addition to being assertive enough to say "no," perhaps we need to be more open to hearing it. Most of us, me included, often think it really means "maybe."

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: lady penelope
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 03:45 PM

Rich M, why does "no" have to be curt? To me, saying no can be the most polite thing some one can say to me. I can't stand it when people offer a negotiation e.g " I'm not sure but perhaps......." when really they mean "no". It is a waste of my time and their's when this ambiguity can lead to misunderstandings. To a certain extent saying no can be an extremely honest act. I may be strange or naive but I do tend to take what people say at face value and I get fustrated / angry / upset / narked when they say things they truly don't mean. "No" is only a negative reply, not sentiment. There is no real need to cushion this response in most conversations. I think people should feel able to be honest enough to use the word / statement in its proper place.

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 04:09 PM

Thanks, Kat. The day I learned to say "No" was a turning point in my life and the beginning of my son's recovery from drug addiction. Somewhere along the line I had gotten it into my head that it was my job to do everything possible to make the world right for everyone else. Guess what...it didn't work and the great "they" resented that I couldn't make it work. The first few times I said "No", it was met with disbelief and outright anger. And I felt guilty. Now "No" is my recognition of my own worth.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: John Routledge
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 04:11 PM

A very thought provoking thread. Thanks Kat

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 04:19 PM

Some very interesting takes on what came out of the aethers to me last night. Thansk to you all, on this and the other TFTD thread, for posting and for your support.

Sins, I know exactly what you mean, as I had to do that with my brother. Now, I think my struggle is doing it with myself. The comfortable and known, no matter how bad, seems so much safer, etc. than the unknown, it makes it easier to say no to some really big questions. Maybe next w/end we'll have to talk about syaing "yes" to whatever and how to do so without fear and in a practical way.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 04:31 PM

Good point, Kat. The effectiveness of my "No" is hopelessly intertwined with my ability to say "Yes" to myself. Same issue - a recognition of my own worth.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 05:01 PM

Many times I want to say 'no' but I get too caught up in hurting the other person's feelings. So I skirt around it and somehow end up offering maybes that I know I will never follow through on. It makes me feel horrible. Yet I seem to not have the courage to say 'no'
Except when it comes to men suitors. There I can say 'no' if it is something I do not want to pursue. But if it has to do with friends and family I have such a difficult time.
What do I do guys, I am inflicted with nagging guilt.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 05:57 PM

"Guilt is anger turned inward". My mantra for five years. When you feel guilty, step back and figure out what you are angry about, who is making you angry, and why. Guilt is an ugly trap. Avoid it like the plague.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:12 PM

Thanks SINSULL, I'll ponder on that one for a while. I know you are so right. I get so swamped with guilt I never look beyond it. I think it would be wise if I stepped back and looked at what is really going on.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Morticia
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:13 PM

Bonnie, how much is it bound up in wanting other peoples approval...because I know that is part of my problem?

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:16 PM

That is it Dr. Morticia. It has to do with seeking other's approval and wanting them to love me. If I say 'no', I fear I will not be loved.

How much do you charge per hour Dr. Morticia?
Your patient Bonita

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:27 PM

Bonita - Morticia has hit another nail on the head. Look at what you are doing carefully. Often, we repeat disfunctional relationships as a way of reliving an episode from our earlier years in an attempt to "make it right". The most obvious example: Being attracted to a mate who is distant or even abusive as a way of reliving an experience with an unloving parent and trying to get him to love you this time.

Keep in mind Bonnie that just asking these questions is a healthy sign. I had to pay someone thousands to dig it out of me and get it in the open. Keep questioning and you'll be fine.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Morticia
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:31 PM

I only charge in beer....*BG*. I have the same problem, a huge need for approval. What I am slowly working out is that many people's approval isn't actually worth that much to me, and I can dispense with it. I also have become very good at reading what people want me to be and looking hard at whether it's worth it....but that takes a lot of time.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:35 PM

'No' is a word a lot more parents could do to use and mean then maybe some of the problems they face in later years would be solved!

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:43 PM

Morticia and SINSULL, looking at this stuff is so important. I am understanding it so much better these days. I have come to the conclusion I have a disfunctional relationship with myself.

Bonita in deep therapy with her bathroom mirror.

:)

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Amergin
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:44 PM

not the only one, bonnie....

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: shortbuckle
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 07:31 PM

I just came across "the No Song " on another lyrics site the baby boomers one I think , by Hoyt Axton recorded by one Ringo Starr thought you might like to know.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 07:34 PM

Join the party Bonnie. When the person in the mirror starts answering - get help.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Amergin
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 07:39 PM

uh, sins....are you saying they're not supposed to answer back?

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 07:45 PM

Well actually SINSULL, the mirror has been answering back lately especially when I ask it..........
"Mirror, mirror on the wall am I the fairest one of all?"
And the mirror replys back to me clear and loud.....

NO

Little Neo

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 07:49 PM

I'd smash the little twit and get a new one. Take control Little Neo.

Amergin - what is the man in the mirror telling you to do?

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 07:49 PM

Oh I hope you guys realize I am in good spirits.
I know this is a heavy discussion of seriously importance yet I am posting with a light heart as I laugh at myself and my nature.

Bonita

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Amergin
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 07:52 PM

sins, it says "damn you are the sexiest thing I have ever seen."

That is great to hear, Bonnie.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Morticia
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 07:53 PM

Bonita, ma ange, we can be in good spirits and still recognise that within us which needs attention......

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 07:54 PM

Why would I bother talking to myself if I never answered?!

I find the person I say "no" to most often is myself - mostly when I'm about to say "yes" to someone else. That's when it's time to step back and ask why I feel that conflict. It's usually because deep down, I know "yes" is the wrong answer.

Telemarketers are taught that once the customer says "no," the door is closed and the opportunity lost. Not "I don't think so," or "I'm not really interested," but "no." Not being assertive makes for a lot of stress, and the first time I just said "no" to one of them, I felt so much better. I think it was all that wanting to say it but being afraid to that caused the stress. It feels the same way in other situations too.

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 08:09 PM

I know you are Bonnie. But who needs a mirror that talks back?

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 11:07 PM

Bonnie, don't feel badly, I am going through some of the same stuff. Mortee and Sins, excellent points. I know the guilt comes from anger and I have had a horrible time expressing the anger and frustration in ways that make me feel unheard. Not sure what to do with the anger, as at the moment I feel shut down over all of it. I used to write it out, but it hardly seems worth the effort anymore. I am going to make an appt. to talk with someone this week, but I'd prefer getting through it with the insight of those who've gone before and lived to tell of it, like some of you!:-)

Thanks so much. I really had no idea this thought would spark so much.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: Thought for the day - April 29, 2001
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 02:49 PM

My 2 cents worth:

"NO" is a power word, as is "YES". In order to maintain their power they must be used properly - and sparingly.

If you say "NO", and then qualify it with conditions (either verbal or otherwise) that might indicate that it can become "YES", you have diminished the power of the word.

Likewise, if you say "YES", and then not follow through, your use of that word loses it's force and meaning. You are no longer a "man/woman of your word".

I try to never use these words with my boys unless I am absolutely sure that they indicate what I mean. Sometimes I think that they have heard "perhaps" or "I don't think so" so often that they want to scream when I respond that way. But I want them to know exactly where they stand when Dad says "NO"; and I want them to know that if I say "YES" they can take it to the bank.