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BS: Shamefull threads

katlaughing 01 May 01 - 10:46 AM
Patrish(inactive) 01 May 01 - 10:58 AM
katlaughing 01 May 01 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,Matt_R 01 May 01 - 11:01 AM
Charley Noble 01 May 01 - 11:04 AM
GUEST,Sad 01 May 01 - 11:10 AM
radriano 01 May 01 - 11:10 AM
KingBrilliant 01 May 01 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,UB Dan 01 May 01 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,bbc at work 01 May 01 - 11:46 AM
Peter T. 01 May 01 - 11:48 AM
wysiwyg 01 May 01 - 11:52 AM
Art Thieme 01 May 01 - 11:52 AM
wysiwyg 01 May 01 - 11:54 AM
gnu 01 May 01 - 12:07 PM
Scabby Douglas 01 May 01 - 12:24 PM
Clinton Hammond 01 May 01 - 12:42 PM
Noreen 01 May 01 - 12:43 PM
Jon Freeman 01 May 01 - 12:46 PM
GUEST 01 May 01 - 12:46 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 01 May 01 - 12:52 PM
Clinton Hammond 01 May 01 - 12:56 PM
Frug 01 May 01 - 01:11 PM
Lonesome EJ 01 May 01 - 01:17 PM
TamthebamfraeScotland 01 May 01 - 01:18 PM
RichM 01 May 01 - 01:21 PM
Little Hawk 01 May 01 - 01:21 PM
Justa Picker 01 May 01 - 01:24 PM
Wolfgang 01 May 01 - 01:26 PM
Amergin 01 May 01 - 01:33 PM
katlaughing 01 May 01 - 02:02 PM
nutty 01 May 01 - 02:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 May 01 - 02:12 PM
Matt_R 01 May 01 - 02:15 PM
Jim the Bart 01 May 01 - 02:18 PM
Pseudolus 01 May 01 - 02:30 PM
Naemanson 01 May 01 - 02:46 PM
John Routledge 01 May 01 - 02:55 PM
Irish sergeant 01 May 01 - 05:11 PM
paddymac 01 May 01 - 06:04 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 May 01 - 06:30 PM
GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com 01 May 01 - 07:17 PM
CarolC 01 May 01 - 07:39 PM
Skeptic 01 May 01 - 08:15 PM
Big Mick 01 May 01 - 08:57 PM
CarolC 01 May 01 - 09:20 PM
mmm 01 May 01 - 09:39 PM
Chicken Charlie 01 May 01 - 09:59 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 01 May 01 - 10:28 PM
katlaughing 01 May 01 - 10:50 PM

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Subject: Shamefull threads
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 May 01 - 10:46 AM

We do have a few of them right now, don't we? Is this what we want people to see when they first come to the Mudcat? The Mudcat is in my heart and not a day goes by that I don't tell someone about this incredible website and its community. Lately, that has been more difficult to do, and, as of today, I won't be telling anyone, for awhile, to give it a try. I'd be too embarrassed for them to see some of these shameful thread titles, let alone their content.

Let's get back on track and let the good shine through.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 01 May 01 - 10:58 AM

Kat, I have just recommended the site to a popular radio station here in the UK. I wish I could take back what I said. Anyone looking at some of the threads might get the impression this is a racist site, and by association that I am racist.
Patrish


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 May 01 - 10:59 AM

I know, Patrish, that is how I am feeling right now. I am hopeful more will see the good threads and read stories like Shula's in Melting Pot Muddles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 01 May 01 - 11:01 AM

It's so hard to face
That in this day and age
Somebody's race could trigger somebody's rage
And somebody's preference
Can drive some total stranger
To make somebody somehow feel the wrath of their anger

Why were we put here? What for? We're unsure.
We sure weren't put here to hate
Be racist, be sexist, be bigots, be sure
We won't stand for your hate!

Now why so cut and dry?
A simple concept missed
Give tolerance a try, this confusion still exists
Ignorant mongers, and "No area's gray"
Couldn't be any wronger in this age and day

Why were we put here? What for? We're unsure.
We sure weren't put here to hate
Be racist, be sexist, be bigots, be sure
We won't stand for your hate!
Get that straight!

Now how far have we come?
How come there still are some
Who won't let some march to the beat of a diffrent drum
To face it, it's so hard
You must be on your guard
It's not okay and you're not free to be a different way

Why were we put here? What for? We're unsure.
We sure weren't put here to hate
Be racist, be sexist, be bigots, be sure
We won't stand for your hate

Let's try to erase it, it's time that we face it
If we don't, then who will? Shame on us
Let's try to erase it, it's time that we face it
Let's face it, the time is upon us
Let's try to erase it, it's time that we face it
If we don't, then who will? Shame on us
Let's try to erase it, it's time that we face it
Let's face it, the time is upon us..


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 May 01 - 11:04 AM

Attention only encourages them. Ignore, ignore, ignore!


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: GUEST,Sad
Date: 01 May 01 - 11:10 AM

For heaven's sake kat, it was disappointing enough to see you even participating-along with three or four others-in that other revolting thread, let alone admitting that you "enjoyed" the early part of it. Now you start this, which will just call attention to the other(s). Why would you dignify this unpleasantness? Yes I AM sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: radriano
Date: 01 May 01 - 11:10 AM

Exactly right - just don't post to the threads and they will die out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 01 May 01 - 11:25 AM

I think sometimes its worth registering our distaste rather than ignore it & maybe be taken for compliant. Especially in your cases Patrish & Kat, when you're worried that people you've recommended to might think you approve.
Still - it will pass - most stupidity does.

Kris


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 01 May 01 - 11:42 AM

I'm guessing this is in reference to the joke threads...I think its important to point out that the joke thread started by Cranky Yankee was started with the best intentions and idea...they were Jewish jokes in the same way a story can be Irish folklore...it required a certain understanding of a language and/or culture...to understand the joke, rather than being about a perceived racial stereotype with the cultural group as the opject of ridicule. For example, referencing kosher requirements is not derogatory, but it does require an understanding of what kosher means.

The thread did slip down some, and I think the other "joke" thread was started to show how some of the addditional postings were seen as offensive. The originator of this thread thought that nobody understood that these jokes were offensive and was trying to show that if the exact samne jokes were made about a different 'group' they would immediately be recognized as racist. I think the thread was trying to make a good point in a bad way. The assumptions were that nobody recognized anything wrong with any of the earlier jokes and that everyone who saw the new thread would be familiar with the old thread...

The ironic ending, is that the person who claimed to be the most offended, ended up offending the most people. Far too often I have seen people react far too loudly for their point ever to be heard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 01 May 01 - 11:46 AM

People do as they please, kat. Those who start those threads & post to them either don't see them as shameful or don't care. Threads like that killed my love for Mudcat. I still read a few of the threads, but I don't post much & I don't feel an emotional connection anymore. It made me very sad at the time. I still cherish the friends I made at Mudcat in the past.

bbc


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 May 01 - 11:48 AM

I have posted this on the Jewish thread:

I think this thread and the others are a mistake, and inevitably lead to hurt feelings, bad manners, and anger. Justifying it under the notion that humour is somehow a universal healer and we should all be tolerant is perhaps true theoretically, but not in this circumstance. This is the Internet, not your living room, or a small group of your buddies getting together, whatever the ethnic group, and however O.K. it is when you and your group are together. It will be taken badly here. We have no control or ability to signal as a community when people have gone over the line. This kind of thread will inevitably attract grief -- it amounts to what we used to call "coat trailing". It is not censorship if people have the good grace not to get started in what inevitably will cause grief around here.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 May 01 - 11:52 AM

Kat, I join you in your distaste but you know what happens as well as I do when anyone here starts to try to rally everyone to a central point of view of any sort. Some will agree, some will ignore, and some will power up an attack. Maybe folkies tend to be so iconoclastic IRL that we are even braced a bit too much against potential "controls" here at Mudcat, where so few really want to control anyone at all!

And, well... there is a long list of people who have, at one time or another, stated that certain threads were distasteful. And been roundly criticised for having done so. It starts to feel like, "Who's got the hot button today" sometimes-- which thing is gonna bother which person, and who is going ot be bothered that they are bothered, and who is going to be bothered that someone was bothered by.....

It's pretty obvious that the bottom line is, we who are here regularly care about the Mudcat, but maybe most especially about the Mudcat each of us has in our minds at any given point in time.

We also know what does and does not work to deal with such things, but it's funny how hard it is to remember and DO that when we ourselves are the one with the hot button of the day.

Maybe a couple of new strategies can evolve in place of the continual stream of "What Seems Awful Today."

Perhaps a way to register distaste for others to see one's stand would be posting nothing more than the simple frowny emoticon, which presents a much slimmer profile for attacks in response but which sends a message like one sends IRL when one physically moves away from that with which one does not care to be associated.

Another might be that if one wants to recommend Mudcat, one can do it not with a link to the whole site first off, but a link to a specific thread or even a specific message in a thread that one, as an individual, might think the person one is inviting might really enjoy, and which speaks to what one, as an individual, sees as the finest of Mudcat. When someone comes here and falls into a thread like that the first time, something magic happens that, I think, arms them against the awfulness. It makes it easier to see that even on its worst day, the Mudcat is still just about the best place on the Net to be. It makes it easier to see how positively such awfulnesses are handled, instead of just seeing that they are there. Because IRL these things happen but are usually NOT handled well at all.

Another would be the oldest standby in the Mudcat Anti-Crap Book of Tricks-- and that is, start a coupole of new music threads each time one spots a new stinker. Do so many music threads that these shamefull ones fall off the page and slink away...

Pull people to what inspires you, and they will come there with you anytime. I do that once in awhile with an e-mail link to a new thread that looks really good, among Mudcat friends whose interests I know. And it works, every time.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 May 01 - 11:52 AM

I have long advocated that the powers that be here should take control of his website like any E-List owner worth half a ruble would do. DELETE the merde like any good maintenance man with a shovel would do following the lephants at the circus. But lately this isn't the main tent. It is the freak show.

Max knows I support him, but this level of acceptance in the name of P.C. is insane.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 May 01 - 11:54 AM

Double post due to dialup hiccup.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: gnu
Date: 01 May 01 - 12:07 PM

Just posted this on one of THOSE threads........ and I'm not going back to it.

The jokes are neither funny nor in good taste. I didn't even bother to access this thread (nor the Jewish "Jokes" thread - and still haven't) until I read the thread about being ashamed to recommend the Mudcat.

I've always said **** 'em if they can't take a joke, but this type of humour really should be kept in the circles of the small minded. I will ignore these threads and repost this to the Shame thread because the only redeeming value I can see being generated here is that fact that most 'Cats will speak out against these threads. Should they be banned from the 'Cat ? Where do you stop ? Would you ban the recent "Coping with Women" thread ? Gosh.... it never ends, does it ? See you in "Shame".

BTW. GUEST,Honkey.... you are an ***hole


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 01 May 01 - 12:24 PM

I don't post that much.

I saw the "Jewish" thread and didn't even open it.

When I saw the "Black" thread I thought : Ah, an attempt to display the stupidity and crassness of this type of humour. I opened it and was apalled.

I won't post there. I understand the inclination to free speech, and the determination not to censor, but this could do serious harm to this site.

SD


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 May 01 - 12:42 PM

I'm with Art... This place needs a good moderator with the STONES to step up to the plate and delete the crap that this place attracts like flies... Hiding behind PC whinning about censorship is just stupid and cowardly...

This place is SUPPOSED to be about folk and blues music isn't it?!?!?! Where's the problem with making sure it stays that way?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Noreen
Date: 01 May 01 - 12:43 PM

this could do serious harm to this site.

I don't think so, while the vast majority of mudcatters are ignoring the nonsense (I didn't have a clue what shameful threads were being referred to when this thread was started because I hadn't opened them).

Attention seekers will alays try it on, while they get rewarded for being offensive.

Noreen


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 May 01 - 12:46 PM

Shameless thread titles kat? I can only see 2 at the moment that looked as if they could be trouble (and I chose to ignore) and the second one of those appears to be a reaction to the first. I note that in the first one of these threads, you say,

"I, too, was enjoying the beginnings of this thread, at least some of them, but became uncomfortable when the stereotypes were drug out."

which would give reasonable grounds to believe that this cannot possibly be one of the TITLES you are objecting to. This only leaves one thread which has a very similar title that I can find.

Please enlighten me.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 01 - 12:46 PM

Clinton Hammond: A little different from what you posted in one of those threads.

Subject: RE: NON-IRRITATING BLACK JOKES From: ClintonHammond Date: 01-May-01 - 12:35 PM

"I've always said **** 'em if they can't take a joke, but this type of humour really should be kept in the circles of the small minded."

Isn't that what Mudcat is?? A haven for the small and close-minded???

So, some here find them offensive? So fecking what?!?!?! Ya don't like it, don't read it and DON'T POST TO IT!!

D'UH!!!!

I'm glad I live in a world where some things offend... it shows that we're still different in some respects... not all the fecking same white-bread-and-butter like the PC feckwits want us to be! Without differences, we cease to evolve...

So keep offending!


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 01 May 01 - 12:52 PM

Not that it will mean much in the grand scheme of things but I agree with bbc on this issue...Yours,Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 May 01 - 12:56 PM

Not really...

I'm all in favour of offensive stuff... but I'm also aware that there's a time and a place for everything... if Mudcatters DON'T want this place full of smut and garbage, then they should make sure that there's a mod taking care of that stuff...

Hell, I can think of one or 2 threads of MINE that I'd delete to preserve the spirit of Mudcat...

But as that doesn't happen, I'm not likely to self-censor... In this place I don't have to!

Gust... get stuffed.. trying to throw my words back at me... have the balls to do it in your own name, or don't do it at all... fecking coward!


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Frug
Date: 01 May 01 - 01:11 PM

I've just read this thread for the first time and find myself in sympathy with the issues raised by Kat and others. I'm relatively new to Mudcat, only been around for a month or two and have enjoyed the dialogue that has been going on and have equally enjoyed being able to ask questions and get informed help and advice. I have also enjoyed some of the more humourous threads and have contributed where I felt able. Humour is important in all things but there has to be lines over which people people do not step, particularly in a public forum like this. As a result of reading Kats comments I opened the Current 'non-irritating' threads that are running and can admit to being horrified at some of the content which I regard as being out and out racist. I agree with Art and Clinton that someone up there should exercise control and keep the crap off the site. Its just unfortunate that there are those who will seek to propogate the brand of intolerance and ignorance and hatred on any potential platform and for that reason censorship is necessary to keep the Mudcat clean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 May 01 - 01:17 PM

Katlaf, I think Cranky Yankee started his thread with good intentions, but the whole ethnic joke area makes me uncomfortable, unless the jokes are told by members of the ethnic group concerned. When a WASP guy tells another WASP guy a Jewish or Black or Hispanic joke over a beer, there's usually a hint of condescension and the us vs them mentality, even if the jokes are basically harmless. I believe that the Black joke thread was ironic on the part of the thread creator...he may be a Jew who found the other thread offensive and wanted to make a point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 01 May 01 - 01:18 PM

But arn't all joke in some way racist in some way, I mean there's a comdian called Frank Carson who's Irish and he was called a racist because he told Irsh jokes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: RichM
Date: 01 May 01 - 01:21 PM

Once you enter a discussion, you validate it--not the premise, the discussion. If you don't approve, don't post! That's the quickest way to kill a thread....

If you really want to distress yourself, read some of the social newsgroups that discuss conflicts between Arab/Israeli, Indonesian/Timorese, North/South Ireland, India/Pakistan...the list is endless. Personally, I was more upset by the Mississippi state flag thread....

Rich McCarthy


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 01 - 01:21 PM

There's always lots of good stuff on Mudcat, and then there are a few things which may offend someone. Sounds pretty much like life in general to me.

I guess the best idea would be to concentrate on the good stuff.

Just like in regular life...except on the News Media, that is.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Justa Picker
Date: 01 May 01 - 01:24 PM

I'm with Art.

A suggestion.
I'm on another forum as well, which takes IP addresses and encodes them (only the administrators have password access to decode them, revealing the IP) but the encoded IP is always consistent with that, of the poster and is always displayed beside their "name".

If the programming wizards here at Mudcat, could come up with similar technology perhaps on a trial basis, I think this would discourage flamers and trolls. My gut feeling is that those who are currently smearing cyber "graffiti" on the walls of this "house", ARE members. Be a piece of cake to match up the encoded IP of a GUEST with the corresponding encoded IP of the Member. It would save the Mudcat "profilers" a lot of time. And then like I've advocated in the past, one private warning to the individual(s) responsible, and if it persists, out them or simply deny them access to the Forum by blocking their IP.

Just a suggestion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 May 01 - 01:26 PM

The thread respectively post that has in my eyes been the most shameful in recent days has been a thread with a completely innocent title in which a poster has deliberately been referred to as 'it'.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Amergin
Date: 01 May 01 - 01:33 PM

JP, I think there is something like that here....as max always seems to know who the flamers are.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 May 01 - 02:02 PM

Jon, it should have read singular, "thread", as when I started this one, I was thinking of the black joke thread. I am well aware of what I said on the Jewish thread.

LEJ, I know that Cranky Yankee didn't mean any harm when he started it and I know somebody thought they were being heavily ironical by posting the other thread. You put it better than I could have, though.

Personally, I wish Max would moderate and remove such titled threads, or at least change the titles. Those are the first thing a new person sees when they come to the forum. Those titles stand out because they are not the norm. I sure don't want any of my friends coming in here and seeing them. It may not be right to judge a book by its cover, but in the cyber world of fast clicks, one glance is all it takes to put people off.

katfeelingmoreandmorelikebbcanddave


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: nutty
Date: 01 May 01 - 02:09 PM

My puppy (8months old) torments my older dog(6 years) till he gets a reaction which is either a chase or a bite on the nose. However hard the old dog tries to ignore him he gets annoyed and reacts in the end.

This is what I'm seeing here - We all get told "ignore these threads and they'll go away" then people like you - the backbone of Mudcat - just can't resist stirring things up

In Yorkshire we say "THERE'S NOWT SO QUEER AS FOLK" (Queer - meaning odd or strange)and the more time I spend on this site the more prophetic those words become.

It really is a shame - cos you are all such lovely people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 01 - 02:12 PM

The suggestion above that when you recommend the Mudcat you give a link to a particular thread that is relevant to the person you are recommending it to instead of to the forum makes a lot of sense. Gives the newcomer a taste of the Mudcat when it tastes good.

But I think you'd need to be pretty jaundiced to think the Mudcat is full of racists just on the basis of those threads, which I hadn't even opened before reading this one. What comes across much more clearly is that racism is not welcome here.

Moderation yes, moderating no. There can be a point when free speech runs up against more important values, but we're a long way from that point and I hope always will be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Matt_R
Date: 01 May 01 - 02:15 PM

Nutty...and all this time I thought that was a Hobbit saying from The Shire! At least that's what Pippin said! Lol!


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 01 May 01 - 02:18 PM

Censorship just ain't the way. Neither is silence when one finds something offensive. I think what Kat has done a good thing here; she created a thread in which people can voice their disapproval of offensive titles, content and comments without keeping the offensive thread(s) alive. Let the evil threads die their well-deserved deaths, along with the non-productive ones, boring ones, self-serving ones, etc.

Max & Joe give us freedom here; in return we need to exercise good judgment. The fact that not everyone will do that is unfortunate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Pseudolus
Date: 01 May 01 - 02:30 PM

I might be painting a bull's eye on my forehead with this but I think I disagree with almost all of you. Ya see, when I first came to the site and started posting it was threads like these that show a large majority of the community coming to the "rescue" of a catter, a group of catters, or the entire community!! Hell, we do a lot of kidding around here but it's in times of stress that the true colors show around here. I would recommend this site right here, right now. Let's hide nothing, especially our willingness to go after threads we think aren't appropriate. We're not perfect, we're a community.....

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Naemanson
Date: 01 May 01 - 02:46 PM

Kat was right to start this thread. There are those of us who want nothing to do with those other threads and still need to express our opinion of them.

I don't think it is necessary for Max or anyone else to control what is said here. We need to be reminded of the dark side of this human race. We need to remember that it is our own responsibility to exercise our own good judgement and keep our statements here rational and reasonable.

The "anonymity" of cyberspace allows some people to express what is actually in their heart. When you see those who post such drivel you are seeing something you won't see anywhere else. You are seeing that person's real thoughts and feelings.

Kind of depressing sometimes...


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: John Routledge
Date: 01 May 01 - 02:55 PM

I wholeheartedly recommend Mudcat to others with the comment that it is a forum open to all and people can be as anonymous as they wish - with all that this implies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 01 May 01 - 05:11 PM

I don't think censorship or not informing your friends of Mudcat is the answer. I didn't post to the Nonirritating threads so I can't comment on those. I can comment on the Mississippi Flag thread. People for the most part did state their beliefs in a concise and reasonable manner. I was personally maligned by a poster who didn't take the time to read what I had written and proceeded to shoot his or her mouth off. (I wasn't the only target) I apologize if my thoughts have been condtrued to be racist. That has never been my intent and I think most of you know that from my posts. Kat please recommend your friends in spite of the occassional off colour post. They don't represent the true spirit of Mudcat or of the Mudcatters I've met. I believe we can continue to make this a quality music site and I will recommend my friends on that basis. Kindest reguards, Neil


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: paddymac
Date: 01 May 01 - 06:04 PM

Sometimes, it seems, we need a bit of the bad to really appreciate all the good that is mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 01 - 06:30 PM

CarolC - If your on this thread as well, I agree. I have stopped posting to the Jewish/Black jokes threads and will no longer do so. Let them rest in pieces. I don't particlarly think any thread is 'shameful' but I will not add to anything that may hurt someone else. The 'cat is a wonderful community and I will continue to love it dearly. Just because a few trolls try to bring it down to their level doesn't make it any the worse.

Anyone who sees the 'racist' threads that are being refered to and thinks that the offensive jokes are typical of Mudcat does not realise what a good commumity this is.

Love to all and stay with us. Is the correct term 'Nil carborndum illegitimide'???

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 01 May 01 - 07:17 PM

I disagree with those who just want to ignore posts that definitely cross a line of racism or whatever. It is tempting to think if you ignore stuff it will go away. That is based on animal behavior studies and is misinterpreted. The only behavior that extinguishes through ignoring it or non-reinforcement is behavior the animal/person wasn't all that interesting in anyway, like pushing a lever. If the puppy wants to chew shoes, ignoring it will not stop that behavior. If a person wants to really antangonize people and cause serious damage to a group and further the cause of racism or whatever, and no one protests, he or she will keep doing it and most likely escalate. So I am all for calling them on it and shaming them, using discretion and tolerance of course...some things can be safely ignored because they aren't too serious. Some can't. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 01 - 07:39 PM

Thanks, Dave the Gnome. I appreciate that.

Best wishes,

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Skeptic
Date: 01 May 01 - 08:15 PM

Is hard to guess intent from a post: much easier to do it sitting around with friends where intent is more apparent. Something like 70% (the figure was from a training consultant so a little suspect) of the meaning of what soemone says is not in the words themselves but from non-verbal cues. (body langauge, tone, rhythm of speech, eye contact).

I think we should all keep Edmund Burke's advice in mind. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

The frowny face idea would probably be a fairly grown-up way for the community to signal displeasure.

Regards

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 May 01 - 08:57 PM

I object strenuously to anyone trying to define what this place means to everyone else, hence I would not want to see any form of censorship. I believe The Mudcat is one of the most popular sites of its type precisely because we can discuss anything that we want under the umbrella of the music and the issues/feelings/loves/hates/etc that spawn it. Allowing this has spawned some of the most amazing threads, full of depth and insight, that you will see anywhere on the Net. It has also given us some of the worst shite that you will find, but I believe the tradeoff to be fair.

I also am deeply offended by this crap that was started innocently enough, but had thought been given to it, it would have been obvious what it would cause. I still believe that the best solution is starvation of the threads, because these people take these positions to get the reaction. I have not been in either of the two threads mentioned exactly because of the titles. I knew where they would go. But I also knew what the feckwits know. And that is that you won't be able to stay out, hence they will get their feed. Why don't those of you that are so incensed by these things do to these scum what they do to you. Hijack the damn thread, load it up with nonsense, turn it into a love thread full of counters to the notions that these rummies want spread. Jump in and ignore them and take over their gig. If they can't get what they are after, they quit.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 01 - 09:20 PM

Big Mick, I don't think these two particular threads are about feckwits. I think they are about people trying to come to some kind of understanding about what kinds of behavior can translate from the 3D world into this kind of reality without causing unnecessary hurt.

I, personally, don't appreciate the sort of humor that is contained in those threads. Some people see it differently than me. But I think people are coming to some kind of consensus that maybe this isn't such a good place for that sort of thing. Regardless of their position about whether or not it is acceptable in the 3D world.

Carol


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: mmm
Date: 01 May 01 - 09:39 PM

I have been coming in here for awhile, the one thing I enjoy is the variety of topics. No I do not enjoy or approve of all the threads,but that is my choice as is all of ours. IMHO censorship has no place in a site like this , or any other place for that matter. mmm


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 01 May 01 - 09:59 PM

In my opinion, Mudcat is the best site available for music discussions. If we were limited to that, however, it would lose some of its charm. We need to communicate with each other for emotional reasons sometimes, as much as for informational reasons. Therein lies the problem. I don't think my weird sense of humor is offensive though perhaps others take offense at something I say. Unless I give up my right/priviledge/whichever to indulge my feelings, I have trouble advocating taking away the r/p/w of others. That's from the liberal side of my brain.

The other side says that, well, the BS threads are sort of beginning to lose charm just by their sheer quantity, and I seriously question whether there is such a thing as an "Inoffensive Ethnic-Group Joke." Seems to me that common sense would say no matter how that starts, you know how it's going to end. The other frustration with contentious posts is the almost absolute lack of rational argumentation; there's a whole lot of sloganizing, not too much factual info., and even less rational consideration of the opposite point of view.

I guess that makes it clear that only right-thinking people should post non-music threads. Now, all wrong-thinking people, please raise your right hands. I don't see you .....

CC


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 May 01 - 10:28 PM

Kat, you may know what you said in another thread, but I didn't. So if Jon hadn't quoted it, your brass neck would have passed unnoticed by me.

Am I reading you right? You want Mudcat censored because one thread - ONE - strikes you as shameful out of all the hundreds, perhaps thousands, so far posted? Does that one errant thread really warrant your telling Max what's wrong with his gift? Must you really hide Mudcat from your friends because of it? Clinton Hammond went further and accused Max of cowardice. Certainly nothing cowardly about Clint's huffing and puffing at an anonymous guest, though I can't help finding such futile spluttering faintly risible.

You perhpas need to reflect, Kat, that most of the people posting in this thread would never have been tempted to open those other threads, if you hadn't given them the oxygen of publicity. I have even opened them myself, but only to skim (out of sheer curiosity) the lists of those who posted to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shamefull threads
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 May 01 - 10:50 PM

I just love the way you turn a person's good intentions around, Fionn. You've really mastered that well. So now when I have a concern about the Mudcat, I should be sure NOT to start a thread and encourage us all to talk about it, eh?

NO, I do not want Mudcat censored. I've said so many times. I do think it would benefit from moderating and I do NOT think we would lose anything of much value by being very careful about it. We already do that, on rare ocassions, when there have been vicious personal attacks, BUT not always.

For the record, if you reread what I posted, I also said or at least change the titles. Nowhere have I ever said that we should absolutely have censorship. My concern was about first impressions.

It's too bad someone gets castigated for giving a flying fuck.

BTW, Big Mick, I do not consider CRANKY YANKEE/Jody Gibson to be a feckwit and I do NOT believe he had any intentions of starting that thread for the nefarious reasons you mention. His intentions were not hurtful, just perhaps not thought out well. His other contributions have been wonderful reads in the classic style of the heart of the Mudcat.

Sorry I gave a damn and sick of getting shit for it,

kat


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