Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Norma Waterson - information wanted

Related threads:
Bright Phoebus reissued (30)
Bright Phoebus specialist interest? (20)
2006 'Frost and Fire' Concert (7)
Martin Carthy book? (7)
Martin Carthy on a Desert Island (136)
Norma/Eliza 'Gift' tour December 2012 - UK (1)
2007/11: Norma Waterson unwell? (85) (closed)
Obit: Mike Waterson 22 June 2011 (132)
How is Mike Waterson? (42) (closed)
Fundraising for Norma Waterson (90)
Mike Harding inverviews Martin Carthy (30)
RE: Happy 70th Birthday - Martin Carthy (15)
A Call to All Folk Singers: Landfill Project (69)
Martin Carthy: Nice Guy (17)
Norma Waterson in Hospital in Cheshire (35)
The Watersons: A website (5)
Marry Waterson & Oliver Knight (7)
Martin Carthy - general discussion (55) (closed)
Martin Carthy feature in the Guardian (20)
Honorary doctorate for m.carthy (48)
Watersons/Coppers (10)
Garry Gillard (3)
Waterson/Carthy/Guvnor/Kipper sites (6)
What's your favourite Martin Carthy song? (93)
Eliza & Norma on Irish telly (4)
Martin Carthys Birthday (17)
Review: Waterson / Carthy (6)
Review: Martin Carthy's new Martin (24)
The Watersons on CD - some nitpicking (7)
Martin Carthy aged 70? (27)
Norma Waterson (38)
In praise of Martin Carthy (15)
Carthy: Shearwater (8)
Carthy for President of EFDSS (23)
Carthy in Concert - Free (6)
Child and Waterson/Carthy (13)
Help: securing permissions / Watersons (4)
Martin Carthy & Dave Swarbrick (6)
Lal Waterson tribute album? (6)
Martin Carthy BBC Radio 2 (14)
Carthy Chronicles (8)
The Carthy Chronicles (18)
Vocal Magic - was Norma Waterson (25)
Martin Carthy is good/crap -discuss!! (41) (closed)
Carthy/ Waterson/ Michell/ (12)
Old Songs Festival 2001, FYI: Waterson/Carthy (7)
watersons video (2)
Waterson Carthy (13)
Waterson/Carthy interview (6)
Martin Carthy cds (2)
Obit: Lal Waterson (1943-1998) (3)


wolters 08 May 01 - 03:59 AM
GUEST 08 May 01 - 07:50 AM
KathWestra 08 May 01 - 11:06 AM
KathWestra 08 May 01 - 04:17 PM
Hollowfox 08 May 01 - 06:14 PM
Nemesis 08 May 01 - 06:58 PM
Susanne (skw) 08 May 01 - 07:21 PM
GUEST 08 May 01 - 11:59 PM
English Jon 09 May 01 - 05:17 AM
Liz the Squeak 09 May 01 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,Aldus 09 May 01 - 02:33 PM
Nemesis 09 May 01 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,Kernow John 09 May 01 - 05:25 PM
English Jon 10 May 01 - 04:04 AM
Nemesis 10 May 01 - 12:02 PM
Les from Hull 10 May 01 - 12:12 PM
Nemesis 10 May 01 - 02:15 PM
Strollin' Johnny 11 May 01 - 12:39 PM
Malcolm Douglas 11 May 01 - 02:43 PM
Liz the Squeak 12 May 01 - 04:14 AM
GUEST,winick 18 May 01 - 03:07 PM
Kim C 18 May 01 - 05:47 PM
Nemesis 18 May 01 - 05:59 PM
GUEST,Winick 18 May 01 - 10:17 PM
Bearheart 18 May 01 - 11:35 PM
sledge 19 May 01 - 03:55 AM
GUEST,Winick 19 May 01 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,Arkie 19 May 01 - 06:22 PM
Susanne (skw) 19 May 01 - 06:32 PM
Nemesis 19 May 01 - 06:51 PM
GUEST 19 May 01 - 10:48 PM
GUEST,Winick 20 May 01 - 03:43 AM
Roger in Sheffield 20 May 01 - 05:36 AM
Nemesis 20 May 01 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,Roger 20 May 01 - 09:04 AM
GUEST,meself 22 Apr 07 - 08:09 PM
Captain Ginger 23 Apr 07 - 05:23 PM
fat B****rd 20 Jul 09 - 09:11 AM
nickp 20 Jul 09 - 09:25 AM
Mr Happy 20 Jul 09 - 09:33 AM
Phil Cooper 20 Jul 09 - 09:30 PM
banjoman 21 Jul 09 - 07:12 AM
GUEST,Elmore 21 Jul 09 - 08:02 AM
Dave Hanson 21 Jul 09 - 09:25 AM
Bat Goddess 21 Jul 09 - 10:59 AM
GUEST 20 Aug 10 - 09:39 AM
Bupkes 20 Aug 10 - 09:49 AM
GUEST 20 Aug 10 - 11:00 AM
Howard Jones 20 Aug 10 - 11:03 AM
GUEST 20 Aug 10 - 11:10 AM
Ruth Archer 20 Aug 10 - 11:19 AM
Manitas_at_home 20 Aug 10 - 11:21 AM
Steve Gardham 20 Aug 10 - 05:40 PM
The Sandman 21 Aug 10 - 04:39 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Aug 10 - 05:09 PM
The Sandman 22 Aug 10 - 10:36 AM
The Sandman 22 Aug 10 - 01:24 PM
keberoxu 04 Apr 16 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,HiLo 04 Apr 16 - 01:51 PM
Kampervan 05 Apr 16 - 02:33 AM
GUEST 05 Apr 16 - 07:29 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:










Subject: Norma Waterson
From: wolters
Date: 08 May 01 - 03:59 AM

Does anyone know what the wonderfully talented English folk singer Norma Waterson is up to at the moment? I'm waiting in anticipation for her fourth solo studio album, anyone know when this is due?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 01 - 07:50 AM

You can find the latest from the official Waterson:Carthy newsletter by clicking here


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: KathWestra
Date: 08 May 01 - 11:06 AM

DC 'Catters Heads Up!!! Just learned that Norma (along with husband Martin Carthy and daughter Eliza Carthy) will be giving a FREE concert TONIGHT, Tuesday, May 8, at the Kennedy Center's Milennium Stage from 6:00 to 7:00 p.m. Eliza will be doing a solo gig at the same time and location tomorrow night, May 9. Am moving heaven and earth to try to be at both.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: KathWestra
Date: 08 May 01 - 04:17 PM

refresh


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Hollowfox
Date: 08 May 01 - 06:14 PM

Also at Old Songs, next month.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Nemesis
Date: 08 May 01 - 06:58 PM

Wonderfully talented? How HAS this woman got away with it for so long? Sorry, (you're all gonna hate me) but in my opinion Norma CANNOT sing. Interpret songs maybe - but that is NOT the same as singing ability hear June Tabor for that - awesome!)

I have listened very intently to a lot of Waterson stuff trying to fathom/analyse WHY she merits all these plaudits! I sat through the dreariest concert on Earth by Waterson/Carthy (at Bedales School) to see if LIVE made a difference - but, she cannot "sing"!

Yours unrepentantly, Challis


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 08 May 01 - 07:21 PM

Challis, you'll hate me for this - are you claiming that June Tabor can SING? :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 01 - 11:59 PM

Challis,
You are absolutely out of your mind!!!!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: English Jon
Date: 09 May 01 - 05:17 AM

Who's June Tabor?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 May 01 - 02:00 PM

Having had to stage both of them, give me Norma any day.. she went out of her way to make it a pleasant occasion, and was appologetic about asking for a simple table.... June on the other hand, was as bolshie and demanding as all get out, and I would rather book Genghis Khan and the rampaging Mongol hordes, than have to deal with her ridiculous requirements - she had a list of foods that she would eat, and they had to be prepared in a particular way.... Norma just needed a corkscrew, which Martin usually carries anyway! Norma's sound check was about 15 mins, June's went on longer than the bloody concert!

If you compare me with Lucia Popp, then I can't sing. BUT if you do it the other way, she can't sing. People have different styles and swapping or comparing them is difficult. June's style is perfectionist and very demanding, it's a recording style. Norma is very much a club singer, of which we've all known a few who couldn't carry a tune in a bucket, but is an undemanding, natural sound, that can be translated to almost any environment.

LTS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST,Aldus
Date: 09 May 01 - 02:33 PM

Have sen them both love and I would say that June makes better records but Norma and Eliza live are great......


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Nemesis
Date: 09 May 01 - 03:20 PM

I've seen all of 'em live, most recently June at the Komedia Brighton and she was mesmerising - and came out to talk to audience afterwards. But I kow what you mean about the regality (she does run her own acclaimed restaurant) - still, she's come a long away (Guildford Library) from when a friend of mine booked her for a fiver.

Norma, sadly saw both her and Eliza (she's alright - well quite good actually) live and it is an experience I never hope to repeat....

Still, there's nothing like being controversial - is there? And at least this is a music thread :)

Hille


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST,Kernow John
Date: 09 May 01 - 05:25 PM

Sorry Challis
Take the aid back for testing *GRIN* Saw Norma live last week with Martin Carthy she sang beautifully and the feeling in the songs was real not manufactured for a recording. Can't say the same about June although I like her records.
KJ


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: English Jon
Date: 10 May 01 - 04:04 AM

Challis, be sure to tell Norma when you've got a gig on, eh?

EJ


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Nemesis
Date: 10 May 01 - 12:02 PM

June 1, Charles Dickens Pub, Heene Road Worthing, Sussex, UK 7.30pm - HAJ! (3 part unaccompanied) hosts Open Mic and Special Guest - Pip Walter from the Piners.

See you there, Norma!!!

:)

Cheers, Hille PS I love Marmite best too.......


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Les from Hull
Date: 10 May 01 - 12:12 PM

Well I have to stick up for Norma, 'cos she's from Hull too. Not that Norma can't stick up for herself.

My introduction to traditional folk music was at the folk club that the Watersons started (Folk Union One at the Bluebell), although at that time the Watersons had stopped performing as a group. Norma was in the West Indies. Mike and Lal performed regularly, though.

So if you don't like Norma's voice, don't listen to it. But recognise that you may be in a minority, and also recognise what Norma has done for our music, and what a smashing person she is.

I have to confess that I always preferred Lal's voice to Norma's, but together they made a great sound.

Les


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Nemesis
Date: 10 May 01 - 02:15 PM

Oh, I do think she's a lovely lady n'all and undoubtedly she has made an unrivalled contribution to folk - this is purely a "analytical" opinion of her voice. I do listen to Norma's voice though because it is unavoidable when listening to music for repertoire/pleasure/research, whatever...I think she has a great "voice" - but that's not the same as being able "sing" in the conventional sense of the word.

E.g. Annie Lennox is a technically a superb singer - i.e., pitch, timing, breathing, notes, etc., but some people I know hate her voice and so say she can't sing.

Why do people get so upset about this? It's purely an objective comment.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 May 01 - 12:39 PM

You can't compare an apple with an orange because they're not the same kind of fruit. Neither can you compare Norma with June, because they're not the same kind of singers. They are both great in their own way - I've heard the records and seen them live (several times)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 May 01 - 02:43 PM

Quite apart from anything else, Norma is a singer from a traditional as well as revival background, and she sings in the old style; there is stylistic influence from her Irish-born maternal grandmother as well as from traditional English -particularly Yorkshire- idioms.  June is a "trained" revival singer with, so far as I know, no traditional background, which might account for her sometimes rather exaggerated stylistic quirks and very un-traditional, histrionic delivery.  It's powerful and impressive, of course, and she can hold a note longer and more accurately than Norma can, but Norma's approach is the real thing, where June's is in a sense an imaginative and over-romanticised reconstruction; highly-polished and often beautiful, but, in the end, Art music rather than Folk music.  For that reason if for no other, to compare the two as if they were actually doing the same thing is a bit of a dead end from the point of view of analysis.

Malcolm


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 May 01 - 04:14 AM

Isn't that what I was trying to say??

LTS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST,winick
Date: 18 May 01 - 03:07 PM

What I don't get, Challis, is how you can say "Norma can't SING" is a purely objective statement. It is, of course, a purely _subjective_ statement (Did you just make a typo?)

If you don't like Norma's singing, you probably would like people such as Walter Pardon, Harry Cox, and Queen Caroline Hughes even less. But to Norma, Martin Carthy, and me (among others), these people are among the greatest singers ever. It's really just a matter of taste. So while I don't get upset, I figure you don't hear what I hear in Norma's singing, and I don't hear what you hear in June Tabor's.

By the way, I think one reason people might get upset is that you don't say "I don't like Norma's singing," you say "Norma Can't Sing" as though you were the arbiter of who can sing and who can't. Kind of relegates the rest of us to the position of dummies who haven't seen through Norma's trickery. Well, we ain't.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Kim C
Date: 18 May 01 - 05:47 PM

I think I know what you're saying, Challis. I made the mistake of saying to a co-worker that Elvis Costello can't sing. He jumped all down my throat. No, wait, I said, you don't understand. On a technical level, he sucks. On a stylistic level, he's great. I love him. I always have. I have nothing against him. Great singers don't have to be able to know how to sing.

I have never heard Norma solo so I can't comment.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Nemesis
Date: 18 May 01 - 05:59 PM

Eaxactly, Kim, thank you.

Dear Winick,

I'm sorry people got upset by my opinion/comment! But, this is what I find sucks about Folk music - people get entrenched on this kind of issue. More to the point or my point is: where are the up-and-coming Normas or Jeans for that matter - Why does Norma still reign supreme 30/40 years on? It seems a pretty closed market at the top and that can't be good surely?

Love, Hille


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST,Winick
Date: 18 May 01 - 10:17 PM

Hi Challis...I appreciate the reply. In response,

Norma doesn't "reign supreme." There are folks like Kate Rusby and Eliza Carthy and Nancy Kerr. Kate is the one making the biggest splash, and arguably had more limelight in the past two years than either Norma or June.

One could ask in pop, why do Sting, U2 and (yes) Elvis Costello still reign supreme? How come the Rolling Stones can still sell out huge tours? How come anyone cares about George Harrison's personal life anymore?

But as a more constructive answer, the fact is that traditional music has always been an all-ages music, moreso than pop. 80 year old farmers sing the same songs, often better than youngsters. But the tradition has been around for hundreds of years, and will survive in some form without doubt.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Bearheart
Date: 18 May 01 - 11:35 PM

Interesting thread. I don't think we have to choose between singers-- like you don't go to a wine store when you want health food. Different styles fill different needs. I really like both of these singer/styles and feel that they bring their own kind of power and integrity to what they do. I've learned great songs from the singing of both...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: sledge
Date: 19 May 01 - 03:55 AM

When I first heard one of Normas recordings I put it back on the self and got something a little safer. Then through a friend I started to Listen to Norma's work and I am now well and truely hooked, the live performances I have heard have only increased my regard for her.

A couple of months ago I took my Ex-wife to see Norma and Martin in Lincoln, not as a subtle form of revenge -torture but because of the real joy it gives me, surpprise surprise, the Ex was completely entranced and enjoyed having a short chat with Norma during the interval. I look forward to seeing and hearing her again and again.

Sledge


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST,Winick
Date: 19 May 01 - 04:27 PM

Kim C:

I think there are different philosophies at work here regarding the technical aspects of singing. It seems you have technical requirements that you apply separately from aesthetic requirements. I don't do that. From my point of view, someone absolutely cannot be a great singer and not know how to sing. This is an absurdity--like saying you can be a great football player and not know how to play football, or a great writer and not know how to write. If you are a great singer, then you know how to sing. It cannot be otherwise. This is because, in my philosophy, the technical aspects of singing are there only to serve the singing, the communication of the music and message.

I think my philosophy is based on my being an ethnographer with training in Anthropology, Folklore and Ethnomusicology. One thing I learned was that different traditions have entirely different standards, both technically and otherwise. Louis Armstrong and Luciano Pavoratti have nothing in common technically, but both are great singers. Norma Waterson has nothing in common with either of them technically, but is also a great singer. Kaluli tribespeople in Papua New Guinea have great singers, too...again, with no technique in common with the others.

What is usually happening when people complain that English gypsy singers can't sing (these are Norma's main influences) is that the commentators have been trained in a particular tradition, be it classical, jazz or whatever. In other words, they apply technical standards from completely outside the culture being commented upon, standards that the singers would not even recognize as valid. That's generally the problem with a "technical" approach--how do you even know what technical standards are appropriate to apply? You have to do a lot of studying of English source singers before you can even say if Norma has technical proficiency or not.

Granted, Norma sings songs from outside this tradition, and that may be what bugged people in the first place. It is perfectly valid for you to say that she isn't good at Jazz standards, if that's a tradition you are well-versed in. But to say she flat-out cannot sing, as Challis did, is to presume that you know a lot about her tradition.

Of course, the more important question is: do you like her singing? If not, don't listen and if so, listen. That's the simplest philosophy of all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 19 May 01 - 06:22 PM

I have been connected with a theater presenting traditional music for over 20 years. If I had a nickel, make that a dollar, for every time I have heard "So & So can't (sing, play, etc.)", I would be a wealthy man. That statement is inevitably made by an extremely narrow minded individual and meant to degrade. That is probably not the case here. Never-the-less, whenever I hear that statement, I also make a judgement. I remove the speaker from my list of people whose opinions I respect. To claim that Norma Waterson cannot sing is an opinion. A subjective opinion. A broad proclamation that so and so cannot sing actually tells more about the speaker than the subject. To say "I don't understand all the raving about Norma Waterson's voice. I have heard her and I was actually bored," is also an opinion, but a statement that can be accepted by most reasonable listeners. I cannot understand the need to proclaim that something one does not enjoy or understand as being unworthy, at least in a serious discussion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 19 May 01 - 06:32 PM

I think Winick has more or less said it all, but I'll repeat the (for me) most important point: Not having a (classically or whatever) trained voice is not the same as being unable to sing. Therefore I cannot accept Challis' statement even with the qualifications. I suppose there are people who cannot sing - they hit the wrong notes, can't sustain them, lack rhythm etc even when singing God Save the Queen. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking particular tastes and cultures, as Winick has already pointed out. - Enough said!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Nemesis
Date: 19 May 01 - 06:51 PM

Wow! We all seem to be pushing each other's buttons here!

I have to admit I am coming from the technical approach here - and as I'm training as a singer and had heard so much about the Waterson's I was prepared to listen intently and learn what I could. Yup, you're probably right Winick (although I did study a fair amount about Roma culture from since oooh , 30 years ago when I was not as old as I am now).

It just dismays me that ,okay - let's open up the discussion a little, that we still have the same icons in Folk as 30 odd years ago. Sure, Kate Rusby's coming along, but when I listen to the radio it is still (more or less) the same performers as 30 years ago and they are still doing the same stuff in the same way. Surely, like all things Folk should evolve/develop/ be a little more expansive?

I think that it concerns me that the general public might listen to Norma (or who ever) and be turned off from what should be a fabulous genre.

I mean, why is it that I can go out to a club/venue and hear superb hardworking, professional (as in they do it for a living) singers/musicians yet the record companies still pump out the same old stuff? Which is the music genre the public hear and think "Oh, that's Folk? Do/don't like that" Why aren't (Folk) record companies investing in and promoting new performers in the same way they do the established performers? I watched with horrified fascination the documentary about "Pop Stars", bemused at the amount of money being thrown at bland pop, surely money isn't so tight that folk record companies can't stick their necks out a bit?

Cheers, Hille


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 01 - 10:48 PM

If anyone wishes to make up his/her own mind about this, there are Norma Waterson CDs (including her new one, "BRight Shiny Morning") available at Camsco.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST,Winick
Date: 20 May 01 - 03:43 AM

Challis,

having thought more about your comment that the folk icons are the same people as 30 years ago, I think this is true, and for more reasons than I gave before as a somewhat naive defender of the genre. And I do sympathize with your frustration, having been there myself. But I've given up wishing folk music would get more hip and become more popular.

As for the "money couldn't possibly be so tight," I'm afraid it is. If you look at the finances of an outfit like Topic records, you'll see that they couldn't possibly afford to develop artists the way a pop label can. Nobody gets rich on folk music, least of all a record company. We are talking vast, orders of magnitude differences in the audience numbers for pop albums and folk albums. Being by nature small, poor organizations, folk labels also have small staffs with very little turnover; Tony Engle's been head honcho at Topic for 30 years or more, and even before that he had creative input! This helps to explain why the artist rosters stay the same. Finally, in today's technological environment, a small-scale folk release can make more money for an unknown artist if he/she produces it him/herself without the involvement of a company. Distribution via internet and at gigs leads to smaller sales than being in shops, for sure, but with no label taking a cut you can often make more money anyway. What helps Norma and Martin Carthy and makes being with Topic worthwhile for them is precisely the fact that they are so established. They don't need the promotion to get their name known to the folk-buying customer in a Virgin Megastore. A new, unknown folkie would cost Topic a lot in promotion to get the name out there, which they then would charge to the artist. Many, many bands I know on established labels complain bitterly that they have to have an album to tour, and they have to tour to sell albums, but they never make any money on either!

As for popularity, the sad fact is that traditional folk music had broad appeal for young people during only one period of the recorded-music age: about 1957 to about 1970. At that time, Skiffle and folk acted mainly as feeders into rock bands. Most of the singers who DID excite young people drifted from traditional songs to their own songs. So Bob Dylan, Judy Collins, Joan Baez, Marianne Faithfull, all went their own way and essentially created the singer-songwriter genre, which still attracts young people today. Guys who were into the blues, likewise, decided to write their own songs, so we got the Beatles, Clapton, Zeppelin, etc, instead of blues bands doing traditional music. These days, traditional songs are taken up by only a few youngsters (in the US, people like the members of Cordelia's Dad; in the UK Kate Rusby and Co).

Even those who do take up trad songs often do the same thing their idols did, give them up for original songs. When I was a teen in the 1980s, I used to go to concerts by 10,000 Maniacs, and Natalie Merchant used to sing "Do You Love an Apple" and "Just as the Tide was a-flowing." By about 1985 she had stopped singing folksongs entirely. Likewise the Equation, who are kind of like a latter-day English 10,000 Maniacs. They could be doing folk music, but choose otherwise.

So in the UK there was not a big movement after Norma's generation of people getting into folk, even despite Steeleye and Fairport rocking it up. There are always some folks (Oyster Band, Damien Barber, Kate Rusby, Karine Polwart, etc). But not very many. It just seems the songs have a limited appeal, and I have long since accepted this. Why should I expect young people today to enjoy "The Chaps of Cockaigny" like I do? They don't read the same books as I do or see the same films! In fact, there are many who argue pretty persuasively that if folksongs were to get more popular with young people, intense commercial pressures would spoil the very things I like about the genre. I don't 100% buy this, but I think it's possible.

That being said, the person who is closest to that higher order of magnitude we're talking about is Kate Rusby, not June or Norma. Rusby's albums are released in the US (which paradoxically is a bigger market for English folk than England) on the Compass label, which is larger and better-promoted than June Tabor's US labels (Shanachie and Green Linnet). And none of Norma's traditional albums, alone, with Waterson:Carthy, or with the Watersons, have ever been released here at all; you have to buy the imports on Topic. So in terms of the money and promotion, it's definitely going to the young people.

Finally, one thing that's encouraging to me is the fact that traditional song seems never to have been all that popular compared to pop music, going back to the last century. Yet here we are talking about it online. If you look at what the last generation of old-timers like Walter Pardon had to say, there was always a small cadre of people who cared about singing old songs, and the rest sang music-hall ditties, tin pan alley tunes, light opera, or nothing at all. When Walter was a young man, he had one uncle who sang traditional songs, and he had to learn all his songs off his uncle because he knew practically nobody else who cared for the songs (shame, Harry Cox lived not so far from Walter, but they never met). So that's not so different from today, and yet the tradition has survived. I predict there will be enough new voices to keep it alive until another revival period, and in the meantime I enjoy the old farts like Norma and Martin Carthy! The others of my own generation and younger don't understand my tastes, but then I don't understand theirs, either!

Anyway, sorry for the long essay! Hang in there Challis! I do sympathize, and I agree Norma is not going to attract hordes of youngsters into folk. But I began to follow folk music pretty young (about 17 or so) and I have since spent literally thousands of my dollars on folk. There will always be more like me to keep it alive.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 20 May 01 - 05:36 AM

The first time I heard Norma Waterson was on the Radio a few years ago. To me her voice is beautiful and sensual. Friends of mine have listened to the CDs (and liked them a lot) and asked why they have never heard of her before, one of my friends is 62 and hadn't heard Norma before!
These were Normas solo CD's which are not traditional folk, one has a song by Freddy Mercury
Anyway Challis perhaps you should start another thread to discuss what you wish to talk about as the title of this one may be excluding many people who may want to join in; you have also hijacked it from its original point (Norma worship - we are not worthy). Just what is your main frustration, that folk music is too stuck in the past (ie where are the new folk songs) or that only trained singers should sing?

Roger


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Nemesis
Date: 20 May 01 - 08:14 AM

Dear Winick,

Thank you for that - a lot to digest (off-line as it's so comprehensive :)

Okay, folks I'll leave you to your "Norma worship" (RinS), basically, though I just wanted to know WHY?(And I was never frustrated that only "trained singers should sing" - good grief, that would be a pretty small percentage).

Cheerio an thanks, Hille x


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 20 May 01 - 09:04 AM

Morning Challis !
I think the points you are making are valid enough, I just disagree with picking on a name ( poor Norma)to illustrate your point which could have been made more generally. So do please start a new thread (or several) on the very valid points you are making and I am sure there will be a lot of discussion, against and in favour

Roger


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 08:09 PM

I know this is an old thread, and this is a bit of a thread drift - but I want to find out about booking " Genghis Khan and the rampaging Mongol hordes", a possibility which was mentioned in an early post ...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 05:23 PM

Good that this has come up again. I heard Eliza Carthy last week and thought' Blimey, isn't her voice like her mum's?'
But, truth be known, it's maturing into something even better. There's a richness of timbre growing there that, by the time she's nearing 40, should make for a sensational voice.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: fat B****rd
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 09:11 AM

Hopa !!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: nickp
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 09:25 AM

eieio


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 09:33 AM

From simple Chinese, its

The vast domain � ? mows ' the benefit flaw � to run over with a vehicle www.mudcat.org, � ? following � holds �.�. ? � runs over with a vehicle grain ? bao bin clover �.

fu four , mow Niu Er? the � � ? xuan to carve � � " the Guangdong � marrow yue ?

Emperor � runs over with a vehicle e runs over with a vehicle ���.

******************

Japanese gives

?? sillaginoid � ? clasp ? ' shark � ? www.mudcat.org and � clasp ? ? � �.�. ? � ? ? ? �. sillaginoid, ? button ? ? � � ? G � & � " � medulla broadax ? Emperor � ? ? ? ���.



************

Simples!! **


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 09:30 PM

?????


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: banjoman
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 07:12 AM

On the couple of occasions I have heard Norma Waterson in concert she has come accross as a warm and caring person and this shows in the way she speaks to her audience and sings. As for June Tabor - just the opposite I would not go to the end of our street to see or hear her. I think that her reputation as a singer is very questionable and undeserved,


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST,Elmore
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 08:02 AM

Elizabeth Laprelle is better than both of 'em put together, and she was only 13 in 2001.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 09:25 AM

June Tabor is a fine singer, I challenge anyone not to be moved by her version of ' Will Ye Go To Flanders ' unfortuntely her recent recordings are over dramatised and histrionic with alien arrangements, the sooner she starts singing like a real person again the better.

Dave H


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 10:59 AM

I saw June Tabor on stage at a fairly small venue a number of years ago. After the second half of the concert (which was Garnet Rogers), and on my way out, I passed June Tabor sitting in the back of the room and spoke to her, complimenting her on her singing. Her response came across as cold, but my real impression is that she's very shy.

Linn


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 09:39 AM

Hello can anyone help me
We used to have an album with norma singing a song about a young maiden who fell for a bloke (she called him by a name)but i cant remember.In the lyrics she says that so many months passed and then the girls apron ties wouldn't tie(meaning she got pregnant by this sweet talking rover type man. Then he left her.
At the end she sings a warning to other young girls who meet this (dont know what she calls him)
I have searched and searched but cannot find the song
It must be at least 10 years old i think
thanks in advance


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Bupkes
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 09:49 AM

It's called A Bunch of Thyme , and this is on YouTube.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 11:00 AM

No this isn't the one but thanks
the one i want is quite a fast folky song with the young girl falling for some roving type guy.
She gets pregnant then he leaves her.
at the end there is a warning to other young maidens who meet this type of feller
thanks in advance


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 11:03 AM

That description covers about 50% of all folk songs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 11:10 AM

Got it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxsXMZSiVSY
any idea which album this is on?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 11:19 AM

The song is Rambleaway, and it's on the Waterson:Carthy album Common Tongue.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 11:21 AM

The Butcher Boy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 05:40 PM

Norma with all the family at Hull Truck, Sunday. Bloody brilliant!
JT murdering 'Flash Company' Wednesday, Folk on 2. Absolute crap!

How's that for subjective?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson - information wanted
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 04:39 PM

Flash Company, that was a song percy webb and also cyril poacher used to sing.
who is JT,is this a popular music singer?
IMO it is always interesting to hear the source singers singing the songs,Iwould be surprised if Norma Waterson hasnt listened to source singers such as percy webb, singing Flash Company.Dick Miles


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson - information wanted
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 05:09 PM

Dick, JT is June Tabor.
I can assure you Norma was great friends with many of the old source singers, particularly Walter Pardon. Many of the family's songs were obtained directly from the source singers themselves.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson - information wanted
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 10:36 AM

well i never heard her[JT] sing Flash Company, But she[JT] used to be very good singing the song The Band played Waltzing Matilda.
In my opinion[JT] can on occasions be superb.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson - information wanted
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 01:24 PM

here is anotherv version of rambleway or burlington fair
a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B_7pdBB-ts">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B_7pdBB-ts
not as good as Normas version, but not bad.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson - information wanted
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 12:26 PM

If it's updated information you want, this interview is pretty good.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/what-s-on/music/a-special-gift-for-music-1-7017468

I thought of recommending this interview on another, more recent thread. But that thread is called Norma Waterson Unwell, and it would make people panic to see the thread-name again. So leave that thread be, and add to this one.

I've never seen Norma live, only her husband Martin Carthy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson - information wanted
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 01:51 PM

I sawher live, with Eliza, a number of years ago in Bodmin, fantastic evening. Also saw Martin at a pub in Truro, highlights of my musical life...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson - information wanted
From: Kampervan
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 02:33 AM

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/what-s-on/music/a-special-gift-for-music-1-7017468

Link for Kereboxu's post above.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Norma Waterson - information wanted
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 07:29 AM

Saw Norma and family at Scarborough recently; she was on top form.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 19 October 12:20 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright 1998 by the Mudcat Caf Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.