BS: American bashing

Subject: American bashing
From: GUEST,jayohjo in Russia
Date: 10 May 01 - 05:25 AM

OK not really American bashing, but I thought that'd get the attention of all the US cats. Actually I just want the reassurance that I know you can do, that there are NICE AMERICANS! All the Americans I've met out here have been loopy and ignorant teenagers, or missionaries. I love you really, i"d just like to hear you being a bit more sane thatn them! Jayohjo XXX

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 May 01 - 06:01 AM

I'm not sure anyone here is sane jayohjo, but a lot of the time we're decent enough. It's a big place that allows a lot of individuality so we have more wackos per square mile than some other countries, but we also have some fine, intelligent, compassionate, creative, and generous citizens. And if we are loud, aggressive, and sometimes obnoxious because we have the freedom to be so, we also go through the world with our hearts on our sleeves and a generosity of spirit based on the same thing.

In truth, we're just folks..........the good, the bad, and the ugly, all living in one big place. Sorry if you ran across some of our lesser lights.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: gnu
Date: 10 May 01 - 06:19 AM

Folks are folks wherever you go. Americans are no different. Where in Russia do you live that you have met only teenagers and missionaries ?

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 10 May 01 - 06:33 AM

I suspect jayohjo has met organised herded-tour groups in Russia, the ones we get in UK are sometimes off-putting but individual Americans I've met at home and abroad have been a different breed and nearly as nice as the ones on the Mudcat! I'd hate to be lumped together with UK football hooligans or club 18-30 lager louts and I'm sure Wolfgang would hate to be stereotyped with the "towel on the sunbed" Germans, who are not at all like the kind people I met in Bavaria the only time I went to Germany.
As has been said, we're all different, and nationality has little or nothing to do with whether we're nice or nasty.
RtS (SAGA-lout)

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,jayohjo
Date: 10 May 01 - 06:34 AM

Hurray! Thankyou. Guess I've just been unlucky - gnu, I know Americans are no different (I've spent 5 months explaining to my Russian class that you can't define personality by nationality). Am working as a language assistant in a small town in northern Russia - am sure I'd find good people from eveywhere in big towns, but here any Americans seem to be missionaries, which is a bit distressing. Can't wait to get travelling again and meet more people! Jo XX

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: InOBU
Date: 10 May 01 - 07:41 AM

Dear jayohjo:
A funny story to give you another American perspective. I grew up in an American refusnic family... I am a red diaper baby, the child of American reds. Our leftist tradition is Irish, rather than Soviet, so, we - more influenced by Connolly than by Lennin or Stalen, have a large degree of free thought through the fact that Connonly was an organiser of an anarchist union, the IWW.
Well, I have a number of friends who are ex-soviet scientists working here in the US, all of whom are hugely anti-communist and for the most part, think we American reds are nuts. They back the most right wing American politics. I spend a lot of time trying to explain the folly of a Russian refusnic supporting the status quo over here, that the community most like the anti communists in Russia, are the varrious groups on the left here (as Russian communist was as far to the right, in most cases as one could get...)
Well, one night, two Russians and I were having our usual political debate over several bottles of vodka (I had a liver then). One, asked to use the phone. My wife, reminded him that as a result of our work for Canadian natives, agaist Hydro Quebec, our phone was tapped.
Suddunly he got it. He burst out laughing and said that he finaly got what I was talking about. "I haven't spent an evening like this since leaving (what was then) the soviet union!" he said.
Another funny story, when I was in law school, a rather right wing member of one of my study groups was over having dinner at my house. At the time, we were still so poor (not that we are much better yet) that we had a toilet with a high tank and chain from the 1920's. He said, "This is why you are nuts to be a communist, Larry." he said coming out of the bathroom. "Your house is just like I emagine living in the Soviet Union would be! An overhead tank toilet, bare light bulbs... holes in the walls..." I laughed and said, "Idiot, this is not Russia... this is POVERTY IN AMERICA! That is why I'm a F**king Red! We HAVE a working class in this country that aren't doing very well... I am a red, not because I want to live like they do in Russia, but because I am the son of a kid who went down in the coal mines at 13!"
Cheers Tavarich!
Salude!
Your American cousin, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Grab
Date: 10 May 01 - 08:00 AM

My wife worked in a T-shirt shop here in Cambridge last year. You really wouldn't believe the number of tourists she got asking for T-shirts of London. "Oh, we were only there just this morning, and it's reely close, you must sell them..." Oddly, it was only American tourists - everyone else had the concept of being in a different city sorted.

Not American-bashing, simply stating a fact. Mind you, the type of person you get on one of those package-tour see-a-country-in-5-days holidays is unlikely to be particularly gifted in the brain department... ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: kendall
Date: 10 May 01 - 08:22 AM

I've done quite a bit of traveling, and, it seems like the wealthy Americans tend to be the obnoxious ones. Just plain folks dont get to go overseas because their family budgets dont allow it. However, we dont have a corner on the arshole market, in Jamaica, after a tourist trap activity, we were headed back to the hotel, when a group of English loons started raising hell, insulting the natives, calling them "spooks", and insisting that the driver stop so they could get more beer. There were 6 of them, and one of me, so, discretion being the better part of valor, I kept quiet. But, it has rankled me ever since.

Then again, in Barbados, I stopped in for a pint at a hotel, and struck up a chat with a Canadian. After a bit, I asked why he and so many other Canadians wear those little Canadian flag pins. He turned bright red and started to stammer. Finally, he told me that it was because they didn't want to be taken for Americans! I asked if he had a spare one, he did, and then he bought me a drink. We spent a very pleasant afternoon being ambassadors at large for our countries. I still have that pin.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: paddymac
Date: 10 May 01 - 08:22 AM

I have heard it said that in society, as in mathematics, division is much easier than integration. We'd all be better off if we spent more time recognizing commonalities, but celebrating differences. The notion of "missionaries" is a holdover from the age of conquest, wherein the "dedicated soldiers of christ" are determined to force (they often prefer the word "bring") their version of enlightenment to those poor unfortunate, clearly ignorant, and surely superstitious natives, where ever they be found. They are generally oblivious to the irony of the metaphor. What do I really think of them? Well, if you believe in such things, I would say that God has a special place in hell reserved for them.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Kim C
Date: 10 May 01 - 12:38 PM

Well, it's a funny thing. I had always heard that people in Paris were very rude. I went to Paris and nobody, not ONE person, was rude to me at all. My French was limited (despite years of study!)but everyone was willing to communicate with me, even if it meant making silly hand gestures.

I think a lot of times, we fall into the delusion that the people of X country are like the people who run that country, because the people who run the country are the only ones we ever see on the TV news. But doesn't most everyone love somebody? Enjoy a good meal? Like to have fun? Worry about money? Like to dance when nobody's looking? I mean really.

It's like Sting said once, "The Russians love their children too."

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 01 - 12:40 PM

People are so diverse and even 'rich Americans' vary. Here at the house museum where I live, I just hosted a catered dinner/evening for a group of 15 tourists from all over the world but mostly American. (The promoter is based in San Diego, California)

They were wonderful, interesting people. I didn't talk with one of them that I wouldn't like to know better. They were happy, interested and appreciative.

There was one difference between this tour group and others that may come along: these people were individually invited by the promoter to join the tour; most of them see each other at least once a year. So, in that sense, they were not typical tourists. They had identity.

I suspect that most problems stem from the anonymity people experience in strange places. (Hey, here at Mudcat we know about that.)

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Captain Insano
Date: 10 May 01 - 01:44 PM

Some might question our sanity, but our music is the envy of the world. And if Canadians don't want to be mistaken for Americans then they should quit blindly imitating us.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 May 01 - 01:45 PM

Contrary to Kendall's assertion, international air fares are now so cheap that almost anyone who is inclined to do it can (I saw tickets to London offered for $328 round trip while at the mall yesterday)--With a little work, you can find a decent room in a decent London Hotel for 100 pounds, which is not hard to pay off on the VISA, especially if you are a couple of the clones that pile the commuter trains here every morning, and started your job a couple years out of school at $40k or more.Or it can be comfortably divided by three or four young sales associates from Walmart who will also find that they spend the same or even a bit less at the London clubs than in the ones at home--

At any rate, for every jerk American tourist acting badly in a public place, there are often a dozen or more discreetly hidden among the onlookers, inconspicuously dressed and as often as not, fluent in the native language-

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 May 01 - 01:51 PM

Yup... there's no' as queer as folk eh...

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 10 May 01 - 01:55 PM

Yeah, Americans are a bunch of obnoxious jerks. That is, until you need them to save your sorry asses from the Germans. Then we are everyone's best friend.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: mousethief
Date: 10 May 01 - 02:06 PM

I have been to Italy, France, and Germany. In Italy I met exactly one native arsehole; the rest of the people I interacted with were unfailingly pleasant. In Germany I didn't interact with anybody unpleasant. In France the natives were downright rude (unless they were behind a cash register and hoped to get money from you).

Presumably the people I ran into don't represent all of the people of France. Someday I hope to go back and let them prove my first impression wrong.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 01 - 02:17 PM

Welcome to the Mudcat jayohjo (great spelling) if this is your first post, and even if it isn't. We need more Russians here. For one thing, I've got a balalaika on the wall, and I've never been able to work out how to play it.

Most Americans never even get passports, like most Russians. The ones that travel abroad aren't a random sample. A lot of tourist American are great people, but I suspect that the proportion of Americans who are great people is rather higher back home.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 May 01 - 02:50 PM

Alex,

I have spent a lot of time in France in the last couple of years, and have never found any of the sort of rudeness that is attributed to the French, even in Paris. Even though I speak mostly English, I have found most people will talk to me--even when, as KimC mentions above, the exchanges are mostly waves and gestures--

Given that, their do tend to think that the French way is the right one, and that no situation can be properly addressed unless the French view is at the core of it--some find this, combined with a certain sort of directness that is charactistically French, to be difficult to deal with. (Americans, however, are pretty much the same)

However, they listen to what you have to say attentively, always make sure that there is plenty to eat and drink, and never bump into you. step on your feet, or try to push you out of the way when you are going through a door.

And they always have great chocolate, even in the supermakets-

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,GUEST outlander
Date: 10 May 01 - 02:50 PM

I'm a US citizen, and worked for banks among other vile institutions, and have conducted myself politely when in other nations. It's common courtesy.

I've been incensed at others I've worked with who refused to extend common courtesies to other human beings simply because they didn't share US citizenship.

We're all human beings. Might as well face it -- US citizenship does NOT confer anything other than a US passport and the rights guaranteed therein. It doesn't make you on whit better than the other nationals with whom you work.

mh

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Fortunato
Date: 10 May 01 - 03:36 PM

Welcome to the Mudcat Jayohjo. I hit this thread by accident, glad I did though so I can welcome you. Your language skills are impressive. I hope you come often and share knowledge of folk music and traditions in your county. Do you have traditional circus music there, one of our family is seeking this sort of thing.

I'm curious what lead you to the Mudcat.

As to Americans, well we're a disparate lot. I suppose you could sort us into two groups, however, those who no when to keep their asinine comments to themselves and those who don't. We've no shortage of the first catagory, but I imagine you have them in your homeland as well. The people in the second catagory are harder to spot.

Best of Luck, Fortunato

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Fortunato
Date: 10 May 01 - 03:36 PM

Welcome to the Mudcat Jayohjo. I hit this thread by accident, glad I did though so I can welcome you. Your language skills are impressive. I hope you come often and share knowledge of folk music and traditions in your county. Do you have traditional circus music there, one of our family is seeking this sort of thing.

I'm curious what lead you to the Mudcat.

As to Americans, well we're a disparate lot. I suppose you could sort us into two groups, however, those who know when to keep their asinine comments to themselves and those who don't. We've no shortage of the first catagory, but I imagine you have them in your homeland as well. The people in the second catagory are harder to spot.

Best of Luck, Fortunato

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 01 - 03:43 PM

jayohjo, where are you from, originally?

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,oh well here goes
Date: 10 May 01 - 04:03 PM

The remnant of White America - now rapidly being out populated by the rest of the people - are by and large very like Europeans in temperament but take one of those tanned Californians to a Paris Restaurant and there are bound to uncomfortable moments.

Thought the former are quick to realize the need for Linen and real metal table ware in Europe the latter are wondering where the nearest Burger King is at.

Loudness, since anyone in the USA can amass a vast fortune fairly easily there is no gaurantee that they be civilised or even literate. I feel some empathy with a cultured Russian who has to deal with such a person.

Missionaries, American missionaries are great fun but make not mistake they are not there to convert but to gather data for later conquest by Mc Donalds and other corporate entities.

So soon there will be Burgereskis all over the Russian Republic.

Inteligence and attention spans the American legacy. Constant mind numbing advertising has eroded the American attention span to one sentence. It is not their fault but the result of Coporate domination in a free market economy.

There are entire University departments devoted to selecting the next phychotrick to make a consumer forget the reason they are in a store and to make them WANT to buy some product. These include Mass Media hooks with in store prompts. Subliminal use of colors shapes etc. Mass market strategies like a diversity of product so large it is nearly impossible to make a comparisson between two packages. Example twenty kinds of Coffee can, all with the same grade content. America is about adevetising, pakaging , marketing and mass manipulation of how people think and what they know so they CANNOT make unwanted decisions.

The food chain and ADD - attention deficit disorder - There is so much sugar in the food chain in the USA that one hardly needs buy it seperately. This is not a result of any great scheme of the manufacturers but of the environment. For example Bread requires sugar to cause the dough to rise, wheras in Europe a little is all that is required in the Americas a great deal is necessary to gain the same effect.

Sweet potatoes and lots of sweet root crops grow well here but NOT in Europe.

Eating food in the Americas is weird for one used to European diet, since when in Eu one has a meal it feels as if it gives some support however I manny a time eat a meal in the USA only to find I am still hungry and the food merely fattens but gives no energy at all.

That is why I am utterly opposed to open EU markets to US ag products and can see why that would be a very grave error to the EU. I suspect they already know about the problem.

Why then should a diet of sugary and fattening foods contribute to ADD, I suppose the brain has a primitive mechanism that closes down and says GO TO SLEEP when the body is overloaded with Suragy fat food.

If I was in Russia I would keep to Russian foods and not eat in the Burgereskies.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: mousethief
Date: 10 May 01 - 04:07 PM

"Suragy fat food"? This is fat food from the Surag Republic, I presume? It's so hard to keep track of all the new countries.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 01 - 04:17 PM

jayohjo's been here since at least May of 2000, and she's originally from Yorkshire, England.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 01 - 04:19 PM

(by here, I mean 'here in the Mudcat')

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: InOBU
Date: 10 May 01 - 04:31 PM

Dear Real American - out of every three dead in the war you refer to, one was a Russian. I believe the debt of gratitude for stoping Germany flows in that directions as well... They joined the Great Patriotic War, long before we did, (and don't throw up the Hittler Stalin pact at me either... Don't for get Chamberland, and Rockifeller)
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: mousethief
Date: 10 May 01 - 04:39 PM

I'll never forget that Rocky feller. Great movie.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 May 01 - 05:54 PM

Guest, "oh well, here goes..."

I am saving your post in the hope that someday I, or someone in a future time, will be able to figure out what it is you are talking about--it sounds interesting!!

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 May 01 - 07:14 PM

M.Ted said: "With a little work, you can find a decent room in a decent London Hotel for 100 pounds...". A night??!! No wonder London isn't in my travel plans in the near future!! BS aside, America is a pretty nice place, and that includes the US. We have people of every conceivable type, and some that you'd need to stretch some to believe. Most US citizens are pretty moderate in most respects, although we have our extremists on the right, left, and other directions as well. As the folks in the US southeast say, "ya'll come see us, hear!".

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Amergin
Date: 10 May 01 - 07:26 PM

damn here i was hoping to bash my country again.....i guess i'll have to go off and sulk....

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: kendall
Date: 10 May 01 - 07:27 PM

I suspect that our behaviour is more a result of nurture rather than nature.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: MarkS
Date: 10 May 01 - 08:39 PM

I won't mention the Hitler Stalin pact, but do I dare bring up the Treaty of Rapallo?

What was that about birds of a feather?

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 May 01 - 09:00 PM

I think it's a mistake to judge any country by its government, or by its tourists - or by its reaction to tourists.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 10 May 01 - 09:10 PM

An American and a Russian are rushed to a hospital in Moscow. The American embassy is called and sends a representative down to the hospital to investigate. The embassy man asks the American what happened.

What he found out was that the American had a little too much vodka, was walking across the street, saw the Russian and said to him, "Putin in an asshole." The Russian looked at the American and said, "Bush is a bigger asshole." Well it seems they were standing there shaking hands and a car hit them.

Moral: National leaders are puppets of the rich. Don't judge the common folk of any country by that country's politicians or their rich.

I've been to many foreign countries. When I get there, I make sure I hang out with the working folks. Never met a bad bunch yet.

Lyle

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,fortunato
Date: 10 May 01 - 09:11 PM

CarolC. Wrong assumption. thanks for the clarification. Not my fault, I was at work and therefore not fully awake.

chance

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 01 - 09:19 PM

Hi Fortunato. You weren't the only one who thought as you did. I'm sure it was an honest mistake for everyone who made it.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 01 - 11:14 PM

Lyle, would you believe that that joke was around in Korea?

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Boab
Date: 11 May 01 - 03:02 AM

to Guest Captain insano---a good CANADIAN word--- Eh??????

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Boab
Date: 11 May 01 - 03:09 AM

To guest Real American000 Saved our asses? We're glad you arrived, eventually, friend---but may I remind you that in the first stramash, you were kicked into the fray, and in the second we had to depend on Hitler declaring war on YOU!!!!Below the belt? Sorry, but you started it. And I have a real gem of an American partner right here beside me....

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 11 May 01 - 06:26 AM

Hello a few points on some of the posts 1)Never judge a book by its cover or nationality

2)Yes missionaries can be annoying sort of like the clerk in a store who keeps asking if you need help when your just looking, but who do you go to when you finally do need help?

3)I think some of you need to read your history books better before you go saying things. Thank God Hitler never did or we might all be speaking German.Though I'm not saying that it would be bad to speak German but I would rather speak it very poorly as a free American than fluently as an enslaved one. 4)when I worked as a grocery clerk in Florida I actually got to meet a lot of people from different countries.I try to be polite with everyone and treat everyone egually.I have to admit though the majority of people who where rude to me where from Canada but not all where just lets say about 60% where.

5) Someone mentioned something about a place in England and its location from London. I made the mistake of asking an older couple if they where from London because of there accents. They however politely informed that they where from a small town some odd hundreds miles away.

6) A qoute from L.A.s very own Rodney King can't we all just get along

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: mkebenn
Date: 11 May 01 - 07:40 AM

"can amass a great fortune easily"?

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Jande
Date: 11 May 01 - 02:07 PM

"2)Yes missionaries can be annoying sort of like the clerk in a store who keeps asking if you need help when your just looking, but who do you go to when you finally do need help? "

Sorry... very poor analogy, IMHO, my friend. When I need help that badly I'll go to a shrink, never to a missionary! (unless, of course the store-clerk happens to also be a missionary and i need to consult on size, shape, colour, etc. ;`)

~ Jande

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 11 May 01 - 03:40 PM

Hey Boab,

Massive amounts of American aid was helping you folks long before we "officially" became involved in the war. And the reason we were "late" getting involved is because all of you clowns were the ones that started it, not us. We just finished it.

And yes, a hell of a lot of Russians died, but they were also doing some nasty stuff too. Remember Poland, Finland, Ukrainian Nazi collaborators, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Snuffy
Date: 11 May 01 - 04:14 PM

Kendall's story about wearing a Canada pin so people won't mistake you for a US person reminds me of my own experience at the tail end of the 60's.

Five of us spent a few weeks touring round what was then Yugoslavia. Virtually nobody there spoke English, so the only way to communicate with locals was in German. We were never made to feel very welcome, until one day we came up with the magic phrase "Nismo Njemci, Inglezi smo" (We're not Germans - we're English). From then on we received the most fantastic welcomes everywhere we went.

I suppose claiming to be Canadian would have similar results in many parts of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 May 01 - 04:14 PM

As per the cost of hotel rooms--London costs the same or less than the major American cities(in NYC, $160 is a good rate, $200+ is not unusual)--and, for the same money, the rooms are a bit nicer--If you think that a vacation at home would be cheaper, try to book rooms at the beach--Recently tried to find something at the Jersey Shore, and was told if I booked right that minute, they had one room left, at $175 per nite--bathroom down the hall, only three blocks to the beach--

Americans today tend to have more money than time--even the kids--we have trouble finding babysitters, because $5-6 per hour is not enough money to make it worth their while--

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 11 May 01 - 04:39 PM

What are the countries where claiming to be Canadian rather than American would result in better treatment. Maybe it would be in the small number of nations that:

1.Haven't had their asses kicked in a war by us.

2.Haven;t had their asses saved in a war by us.

3.Don't rely heavily on American foreign aid.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 11 May 01 - 04:43 PM

Well, I'M American and I would rather spend any evening conversing with a pleasant "foreigner" (Canadians included) rather than an unpleasant American (no matter how furiously he is waving the Stars and Stripes).

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 01 - 04:50 PM

Some Americans do seem to be extraordinarily sensitive about any kind of comment that falls short of reverence.

I suppose it's a kind of humility. I mean people who really think they are above rational criticism don't worry about that kind of thing, because they reject any criticism as irrational and therefore not worth commenting on.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 May 01 - 05:26 PM

Kevin,

It has been noted that: A) Americans believe that they are both entitled and, perhaps even obliged to provide moral instruction to the rest of the world-- B) Americans tend to view themselves as the underdog in every situation C)Many Americans view America as a gift of God to the rest of the World--

Having been educated in America during the 50's and Sixties, I can assure you that these ideas were not only encouraged, people who expressed any doubt were often severely ostracized--often by people who talked a lot like "Real American"---

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 May 01 - 06:11 PM

After almost three years of American domicile, I would just like to state that I have never yet met an American who was ill-mannered in that louche, selfish, gauche fashion so beloved of the youth of council estates from London all the way to Edinburgh.

Even when driving in New York for the first time in rush hour, and having to make some questionable manouevres due to my ignorance of the city, I encountered nothing but tolerance, certainly no gratuitous rudeness.

My impression of the country is that Americans of whatever social rank simply have much better manners than their British counterparts. And that is just one of the reasons why I love being here.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: mousethief
Date: 11 May 01 - 06:17 PM

Social rank? What's that?

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 11 May 01 - 06:39 PM

Hello well about the whole clerk thing ok it might have been a bad reference in the way I put it but You got my point on how they keep bothering you til you want to buy something sort of like a missionary until you want to speak with God. Of course you don't need them to do so. I have also noticed shrinks have more problems then the people they are suppose to help so why would I want to pay someone to solve my problems when they can't fix their own.See how someone who is a little anal retentive can turn a simple joke into a whole spew of words Hahaha

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 11 May 01 - 06:41 PM

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 May 01 - 06:45 PM

"Social" , " rank". Check your dictionary Alex. Both words are in there.

Perhaps I should have added that the only assholes I have encountered in this country have been in cyberspace.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 11 May 01 - 07:15 PM

It's better to travel out of London a bit to stay. I've just eaten in the restaurant of a new hotel which was offering rooms for the night at £45. I don't know what they're like, but probably, from the look of the place, standard ensuite double rooms with TV, hot drinks etc. Not characterful, but the food is definitely good. There's lots of this sort of thing, catering for business during the week, but cheaper at weekends. This one is part of a cluster about ten minutes from a station which is 45 minutes from the centre of London. It's not a great location - the bridge view isn't a patch on San Francisco's - but it shows you can do things cheaper. And out further there's bed and breakfast places, which are characterful, and even cheaper, and you get to know the people.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Jande
Date: 11 May 01 - 07:19 PM

Guest,Joe... "I have also noticed shrinks have more problems then the people they are suppose to help so why would I want to pay someone to solve my problems when they can't fix their own."

Ah, you see... there's the rub...

The shrink's joob is to NOT solve your problems but to remind you that it is human to err, that we are all f*cked up together so have a little compassion, and be nice/good to ourselves, first.

Once we get that lot out of the way (can take two to ten years, btw) we can then start seeing ways to solve our own problems creatively.

I'd rather have a shrink that's "been there" anyday to those weird jerks that act more like missionaries and {{{shudder}}} social workers.

If anyone wants the number of a bona fide "been there and back again" counsellor who does phone work (and who doesn't charge you an arm, a leg, and your firstbornmale child), PM me and I'll give it to you. This guy is amazing! (I've known him for over 15 years)

Anyway to get back on topic. I moved here to the US of A in August of last year. I'm ashamed to say that I didn't realise how prejudiced I was by the media depictions of Americans. I hurt someone very close to me by expressing what I saw as "the world's view of Americans".

Having lived here for a number of months now, I can honestly say that the folks I've met here in the states are simply that --folks. The same as anyone anywhere. They have prejudices like every other nationality. But given a chance they are as human, humane, compassionate and sensitive as any other nationality, too.

I've learned my lesson, I hope. Now I tend to feel embarrased whenever I read or hear something that lumps all the american people together, especially if my sweet, sensitive (american)partner is present to hear it.

~ Jande

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 11 May 01 - 07:21 PM

hello hit the wrong button before.I just wanted to comment on a few of the other posts as well. Larry the only Irish reds I have heard of before were beers. All the true Irish I know even the non catholic ones proudly refer to the color green. I know what you mean by working class poor there is much of it here in the states. I would have to say though why those who hate communisn do so is because it was also accompanied by a dictatorship in there country which will always happen because some will always strive to be of the elitist group. Murray Macleod Are you originally from the Isles or are you a highlander? I Have lived here in the USA all my life and have never traveled overseas. I have to tell you though where I live is pretty quiet to when I lived in Florida but I can assure you in my experience there are rude people everywhere and if you look or happen to be unfortunate enough you will eventually meet them no matter what their social rank.I work with a few guys who seem to get there kicks off of making other people miserable and they are blue collar just as I am Well thats enough for now just remember look at the person for whom they are and not what they are

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: kendall
Date: 11 May 01 - 07:56 PM

What is the point in all this sniping?

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Jande
Date: 11 May 01 - 08:37 PM

Kendell...

Jo said at the beginning of this thread:

"OK not really American bashing, but I thought that'd get the attention of all the US cats. " [italics mine]

An unfortunate title for a thread, IMHO.

~ Jande

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 01 - 08:44 PM

See what I mean? Seriously, I think the American hypersensitivity is in fact an indication that they really are not as arrogant as they sometimes come across as.

I think it's a matter of style - the English, and to a lesser but real extent their neighbours in the offshore islands have a tradition of understatement - "I'm not feeling too great today" means "I feel like I'm at death's door", "I didn't do too badly" means "I think I was brilliant". Being used to it, people adjust their understanding.

My impression is that Americans tend to go the other way, and overstate things - and presumably adjust their understanding to take account of that.

The room for misunderstanding here is that if you apply the adjustment up or down to people from the other culture, you get a grossly distorted understanding. Americans are likely to come across as arrogant, the English as grovellingly (and clearly dishonestly) self-deprecating.

There was the classic case in the Korean War which was reported recently, where the English commander of the Gloucesters under attack said that things were "a little sticky", meaning they were desperate, and that support was urgently needed - and the Americans assumed he meant that things were reasonably satisfactory, and that support was not urgently needed. And the Gloucesters were cut to pieces.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: InOBU
Date: 11 May 01 - 08:47 PM

Hi Joe... The reason you never met Irish reds, is found in the statement you never left the country. I completely endorce the idea that Americans should travel, quietly, though not with a big stick, but with open eyes. If you found yourself in say, Belfast, a few years ago, facing NATO guns, you'd meet lots of Irish reds. Nice cuddly Irish reds who you'd really like.
As to my Celtic brother Murray... the good luck or good sense you show is that you came to New York, not only a bastion of liberality in the states... but... welll... (here we go spaw...) THE HOME OF SORCHA DORCHA!
THE HARDEST WORKING CLETIC BAND!!!
AS SEEN ON SORCHADORCHA.COM!
BRINGING THE BEST OF RED IRISH MUSIC TO A STAGE NEAR YOU!!!
The plug-o-matic strikes again!)

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 May 01 - 08:52 PM

You are right Larry, and I need to go back to New York.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 11 May 01 - 09:08 PM

Real American expresses a continuing mythology that we (the US) won The War. D-Day would've turned out a lot differently (and may not have happened at all) had the Russians not taken on the brunt of the German army, giving as well as receiving staggering losses, and defeating them at Stalingrad. Other countries made enormous contributions ... the Battle of Britain comes to mind. Real American has probably seen too many Hollywood war movies.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: mousethief
Date: 11 May 01 - 09:15 PM

Gosh, Murray, feeling particularly nasty today, or are you seriously stupid enough to think I don't know what those words mean? Take a chill pill, dude. Don't be one of those nasty people you've met in cyberspace.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 01 - 09:21 PM

I can't somehow see how an invasion of Europe could have been launched across the Atlantic without a launching pad this side. I imagine if there'd been a surrender or whatever in 1940, and the offshore islands had been occupied by the Germans, it would probably have come down to Atomic Bombs on Berlin, and likely enough New York and a lot of other places. Unless the Russians managed to fight their way through in time.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 May 01 - 09:31 PM

Are we really like that Mac? Look at my post, th second one right up there at the top. Everyplace has ways and things about it that are a product of it's history and indeed, our history is quite short by all comparisons. Perhaps we as a country are guilty of overstatement but we have little history and therefore have oft gotten by on bravado. I think as a nation we may be getting passed that. Oh, it's still there, but not nearly strong as it used to be.

It's hard to make generalizations about any country or culture but the US is especially tough because of the numbers who have come here from so many places in so short a time and settled over a broad land.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Peg
Date: 11 May 01 - 09:45 PM

Murray Macleod I think I love you.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 May 01 - 10:05 PM

McGrath, continuing along those lines of 'differentness' I once read that the English have the curious (to USA) habit of saying things like, 'I have been given a truly dreadful haircut' and then turning around and saying, 'There's been a spot of trouble- it seems the train derailed'.

Literal-minded people like me are probably the most likely to misunderstand- and I agree that that is my problem, not yours. However, as in the example you gave above, there will always be the potential for harm and mischief.

Education, education, education... seems like everything always comes down to education. In 'foreign' countries, we carry phrasebooks and dictionaries and books with helpful hints. I suspect we take much less care in English-speaking countries, tending to assume that there will be no difficulty in negotiating one's way. Ironically, because of the similarity of language, there is probably greater danger of offending our hosts in this case than we do in countries with different languages where, on both sides, more slack is cut.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 12 May 01 - 12:51 AM

Alex, you asked, I replied. Politely and concisely, much as is your wont.

Peg, I appreciate your endorsement, and I have always admired your forthrightness and courage in the face of adversity. But trust me, you wouldn't like my grumpiness in the mornings .................*G*

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 01 - 03:03 PM

Where I live, New England, we also have a habit of understating. Must have been a bad gene that we inherited from the English ancestors! WOBH

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 01 - 04:42 PM

What does WOBH stand for?

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Shields Folk
Date: 12 May 01 - 05:11 PM

Bad gene? English? Understatement? Monty Python? Marmite? OOH ER MISSUS

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 01 - 06:50 PM

Any talk about cultural tendencies has to be oversimplified, and I'm sure there are Americans who go in for understatement, just as there are English people who go over the top.

But I think there is some truth in what I said there - and it wasn't meant to be critical of the difference, the reverse in fact. The important thing is to spot the clues which tell you when someone is understating, and when they are overstating, because that way we can avoid putting in the wrong compensation and getting it hopelessly wrong. A bit like adjusting the sights on a rifle.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Shields Folk
Date: 12 May 01 - 06:53 PM

You've just come in from the pub, haven't you?

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 01 - 07:12 PM

WOBH Means Whale Oil Beef Hooked. Say it out loud. It is a statement of resignation in Newfoundland.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Boab
Date: 13 May 01 - 05:31 AM

I don't "bash Americans"---I bash back at miscreants who have a bash at me or mine. I look forward to a visit from a Real Real American before June ends---my much liked brother-in-law Tim, who can tell harrowing tales direct from the Vietnam quagmire. Perhaps the fact that he isn't a hard-right Republican makes him a highly acceptable member of the human race. I am "cheesed" by this wrangle---I will ignore any further sniping from the direction of the White House. Boab

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 01:14 PM

I haven't been watching too many hollywood movies. Evidently, I have actually been reading too much history to be able to rationally converse with many of you. The simple fact is that Americans turned the tide of World War One and World War Two in Europe. To expand the point that I zinged Boab with, the Russians did so well against the Germans because Americans were sending them massive amounts of aid as well. You folks can spin it any way you want, but the fact is that if wasn't for us crappy Americans a lot of you would be speaking German. And many of you seem to conveniently forget that we pretty much single handedly won the war in the Pacific. If it wasn;t for us, there would probably be a lot of Brit POWS dying of old age in Japanese prison camps in Malaysia today. So, if you want to blindly follow the fashionable trend of criticizing Americans, go ahead. If you keep repeating the mantra long enough, you might be able to actually convince yourself that your not full of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: InOBU
Date: 14 May 01 - 01:50 PM

Hi Real American:
If you haven't read it, Stalingrad, by Anthony Beevor is a tremendous book. I think you will really enjoy it, if you haven't read it. However, it does show that American aid to the Soviet Union was not overly helpful and did not really turn the tide. We just did not make equiptment for the harsh conditions in Russia and thank God, neither did the Germans. In fact, the great effort of the US, would have been really much harder if the eastern front was not held and collapsing from the extrodinary efforts of the Soviet Red Army. Now, one may argue that without Stalinist purges and such, the Red Army could have been putting more into fighting the Germans, however, on the other hand, it is hard to second guess history, the reality, is unlike France and Poland and so many others, Russians did not capitulate.
all the best
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: mousethief
Date: 14 May 01 - 01:58 PM

InOBU, that's a little too facile. Unlike the French and the Poles, the Russians weren't overwhelmed and inundated from stem to stern by the German army. What was France (or Poland) to do, once their entire territory was overrun by Panzers?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: InOBU
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:07 PM

Hi Alex... I agree that one can't judge too harshly in hindsight, however, when one looks at the way some French company's and the French banking industry acted after occupation and before the nazificaiton of French law, you undertand the saying that if everyone who was in the French undergraound after the war was in the French undergraound during the war, the Nazi's would not have been able to stay in France. But Russia does have vast land mass and wether on it's side, as well as fear of state terror, but also real nationalist fervor in resisting the nazis. - Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:12 PM

Larry,

It is nice to finally deal with someone operating from an informed perspective. I am familiar with A.B.'s book. However, he is rather conservative in terms of calculating the effects of American aid. In fact, one historian (who I can't remember) notes that so much American artillery ammunition was provided for the Russians that in some battles (even in Stalingrad I believe) they had the luxury of targeting individual German soldiers. Also, the role of Russian air power is neglected by many. Most are unaware that the U.S. supported bases for Russian pilots as well as providing planes, equipment, etc., which did in fact hold up under the Russian winter.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:19 PM

Dear Real American, I'm pretty sure my dad stood elbow to elbow with the good folks from Australia and New Zealand when he fought in the South Pacific. I don't think he believes the U.S. won it "single-handedly". What ended the war in the Pacific was the bomb, no question, and yes, it was dropped by Americans.
Also, since you've mentioned the "you'd be speaking German if not for Americans" twice, did you know Americans almost voted German as the official language back when we were setting up our nation? Not your point, I know, but an interesting tid-bit.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: kendall
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:20 PM

The bottom line is, Hitler was trying to fight a two front war, and it proved to be his undoing. The allies kicked his ass, and it was a JOINT effort. The Russians were the first to enter Berlin because, according to Geberal Patton, he and his 3rd army were held back. Patton was a fighting S.O.B and a glory hound, but, no matter what, none of the allies alone could have done the job. As the invincible knight at the bridge said in Monty Python and the holy grail, "Alright, we'll call it a draw." Cant we just call it a draw? this sniping at good friends bugs me.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:26 PM

The Kiwis and Aussies made some contributions, but i doubt that you can name a single major battle in the Pacific that wasn't won by Americans. And you pretty much make my point for me when you mention the bomb. I will buy into the allied victory as a equal effort, but only if you follow the famous line about some animals being more equal than others.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:40 PM

Dear UNReal American, I feel sorry for you. After reading what you've written, you make ME want to bash Americans and I'M American!

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:45 PM

So, it is "unAmerican" to use facts to combat bullshit. You are the type who would sit there nodding like an idiot while people around you repeat nonsense stereotypes about your country.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: John J
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:47 PM

Dear Real American, I'm sure we're all very gratfull for the help given by America when it's been requested. John J (English)

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:52 PM

John,

Thank you. It would be nice if a lot of people would show their gratitude by NOT trying to perpetuate negative stereotypes about Americans. It only fuels the self-loathing of people like Karen.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:03 PM

Well, I wasn't going to write back but, what the hell?, you pissed me off so here goes: first of all, my above-mentioned statement was to point out that the U.S. was not alone in the Pacific so the "single-handed" idea of yours was not valid. Second of all, if you've read my comments you'll find NOT once have I been negative to the U.S. but merely to individuals who happen to insult other nations while waving their own patriotic banners.
Now, I KNOW you are not about to let me have the last word but this thread is over as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real american
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:08 PM

Right, I never give a moron the last word. I said "pretty much single handedly," not "single handedly." There is a difference sweetheart. And if you were operating with a rational thought process you would know that it is not an insult to others to point out the accomplishment of one's own nation. I am glad that you are through with this thread because you obviously are incapable of making a substantive contribution to it.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:19 PM

What I find myself wondering, though, is if the fact that the U.S. has made such a significant contribution to the world gives us the right to behave in a way that is ill-mannered and boorish, as our GUEST, Real American is doing, and to do it with impunity.

Even when responding to negative stereotypes about Americans, it seems to me that we perpetuate those stereotypes rather than dispell them when we react in that way. I'm sure there is a diplomatic way to conduct a disagreement such as this one. It just takes a little more effort.

Perhaps it's that sort of behavior that gives Americans a bad name.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:33 PM

Using logic and facts evidently qualifies as boorish behavior in your universe. Are you sure that you aren't karen in disguise?

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:43 PM

"Right, I never give a moron the last word. I said "pretty much single handedly," not "single handedly." There is a difference sweetheart. And if you were operating with a rational thought process you would know that it is not an insult to others to point out the accomplishment of one's own nation. I am glad that you are through with this thread because you obviously are incapable of making a substantive contribution to it."

--GUEST, Real American

Other than 'I said "pretty much single handedly," not "single handedly."' And "it is not an insult to others to point out the accomplishment of one's own nation", which really fall more into the category of a correction and an opinion, I can't find any logic or facts in this post. Only insults and condescention.

It seems to me that you could have made those two points quite effectively without the insults and condescention, which leads me to restate my assertion that your behavior has been ill-mannered and boorish.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:51 PM

You can't find any logic because you seem determined to read them out of context. I doubt that you have even bothered to read this entire thread and hence would grasp the significane of those statements? Sadly typical of many others here. Why don't you obtain a dictionary and look up the meaning of the "insults" that I used in reference to Karen. One could easily make a case for their accuracy given the logic that she has tried to use. I think your time is up unless you can actually muster an intelligent comment.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:57 PM

Alternatively, perhaps you just enjoy abusing people.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 May 01 - 04:00 PM

It is important to note that, if the US "pretty much single handedly" won the war in the Pacific Theater, it was largely because the Commonwealth forces from the region had been committed to the African Theater long before the Japanese entered the war. The Allies agreed that it would be more practical for US naval and ground forces to assume responsibility for the island clearance operations, since we had the assets in place or could move them there more rapidly, and for British forces to concentrate on South Asia, primarily Burma. Anyone who thinks that any one of the WW2 allies could have won, or did win, that war alone or without the active participation of all of the others clearly has his head in rectal defilade.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 04:02 PM

If pointing out horribly flawed logic in rather graphic (but accurate) terms qualifies as abuse, then you must enjoy being abused since you are sticking around. Now, since you have again failed to produce anything factual or worthwhile, it is time for me to take my leave for today. You have twenty four hours to say something smart.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 01 - 04:05 PM

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 04:05 PM

One quick final word for today art: THE BOMB. You are the one with his head in the wrong place. As Robin Williams would say, "Thank you for playing."

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: mousethief
Date: 14 May 01 - 04:35 PM

Game's over. Everybody loses. Now go out and have a beer.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: gnu
Date: 14 May 01 - 05:12 PM

Gee. I wasn't filling in my score card, but I'd say Real Flamerican is waaaaaay behind on points. If he doesn't have a knockout in the late rounds, I'd say he won't even get a rematch. And a knockout is a long shot for a punch drunk fighter.

God Bless America... but not Real Flamerican.

realcanadiangnu

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: mousethief
Date: 14 May 01 - 06:04 PM

You know, one can be right and rude, or right and polite, or wrong and rude, or wrong and polite.

Whether one is right or wrong, being polite will win you more points than being rude. Indeed, you can be 100% correct, but so rude that you turn people away from your cause -- even people who were already on your side (the famous "Please stop being on my side" phenomenon which we've all experienced!).

And of course at the time you're wrong you don't realize it.

Thus general humility and enlightened self-interest would dictate that being polite is almost always the better option than being rude.

Not advice I always follow, alas, but it's true nevertheless.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: InOBU
Date: 14 May 01 - 06:06 PM

I'm with Alex, on the suggestion that it is time for a beer break... unfortunatly my liver isn't anymore, Have one or two for me, ol' mousethief! Cheers, NO PASARAN! Larry
PS WHere was the US when Spain needed help, oh forget it, Salud!

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 01 - 06:10 PM

I reckon "GUEST Real American" is probably someone who loathes America and Americans, and has thought up this sneaky way of trying to get other people to see them the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: mousethief
Date: 14 May 01 - 06:11 PM

Thank you, McGrath, for throwing petrol on the fire. I would never have thought of doing so.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 01 - 06:32 PM

Maybe the problem is that although our GUEST, Real American has a lot of firepower, he keeps using it to bomb his own runway.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: gnu
Date: 14 May 01 - 06:35 PM

McGrath... I suppose one must never underestimate. Therefore, my hat's off to Real Flamerican. He really had me going. I actually thought he was just another ***hole and, instead, he's a clever ***hole. Gee, I feel like a dumb animal.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Joe_F
Date: 14 May 01 - 07:30 PM

ObSongs (not to mention Who Won the War): The most sustained piece of American bashing I know is "The Second Front Song". I heard it at a concert of the Ballads & Blues Society in London in 1958, and later on the radio from a Ewan MacColl recording. Is it known who wrote it?

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Matt_R
Date: 14 May 01 - 07:44 PM

The Statue of Liberty Lost her virginity To me And that's just fine!!

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 15 May 01 - 04:44 AM

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Gervase
Date: 15 May 01 - 05:07 AM

For crap's sake, the problem isn't nations but ideologies.
The bomb was built in America, but it was built by Americans, Brits, Germans, Australians, Austrians and Italians among others; all united in their resolve to overthrow totalitarianism.
The kind of blinkered, hectoring nationalism expressed by some of the "guests" here would turn fact on its head and rewrite history.
And, "Real American", look up Kohima and Imphal; if, that is, they appear in your history books.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 15 May 01 - 05:11 AM

Hello Real American since you can tell I'm an Idiot since I keep hitting the wrong button please tell me who helped create the BOMB and what country they are from.

Larry I guess we still held A grudge for them sinking the Maine back in 1898 thats why we didn't help Spain.

Like I said before if Hitler had read his history books the war would of came out differently,especially the Chapter about Napoleon and the harsh Russian winter.

Real American you asked Karen to show you facts so far you haven't shown us any such as what battles the US won and when you just keep spouting off general info most everyone knows.

Also Murray MacLeod Are you originally from Scotland and if So are you from the Isles or are you a highlander,I ask this question honestly I am not trying to be a smart ass with the whole highlander bit as from the earlier part of this post you can see that would be impossible

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: InOBU
Date: 15 May 01 - 08:05 AM

No Joe, it wasn't the Maine, it was the Palmer raids. Just as we are blockading Cuba, to the world's disgust, we will always tolerate a Nazi over a leftest. Things just don't change here. - Larry

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 15 May 01 - 10:49 AM

I have provided facts. The U.S. dropped the bomb on Japan, then demanded and received an unconditional surrender. I assumed that it was common knowledge but most of you seem oblivious to the significance of this this event. My critics are the one's who have failed to name a single major battle in the Pacific won by non-Americans. I also doubt that most of you were aware of the material/logistical aid provided to the Russians by the U.S. until I educated you about it. Did you even know that Russian pilots were based in the U.S.? I doubt it because you are long on verbosity and short on historical knowledge. Don't try to fool yourselves, I am taking on this entire thread and winning. Maybe you should go pick an argument with Karen or Carol, they are easy...

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Gervase
Date: 15 May 01 - 10:56 AM

Listen, lunkhead, the facts are posted above. If you choose not to read them, or don't understand them, then that's your problem.
And may the ghosts of ten thousand Ghurkas, Chindits and Indians dance around your pea-like brain.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: InOBU
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:19 AM

and the last thing you want to do is piss off a Ghurka, living or dead!!! (Larry)

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:20 AM

Oh, Popeye! I'd know you anywhere. Not to worry, folks. Let him be...

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:26 AM

Nicely put Gervase!!!

And "Real American Asshole".........

There were several non-American victories if the Pacific theatre.........Bataan and Corrigador, Coral Sea was at best a draw............seems to me the fleet took a hell of a pasting at Pearl Harbor too.

May I apologize to my British, Australian, New Zealand, and Canadian brethren? We produce a few like Real American Asshole.........I think we have a supply source somewhere like maybe they're by-products of medical experiments. It's got to be that......or just another in the continuing lineage from that Klansman that fucked a buffalo. What a tool.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: John J
Date: 15 May 01 - 12:50 PM

Nice one Gervase!

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: mousethief
Date: 15 May 01 - 12:58 PM

I think we would have been better off going out for a beer.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: InOBU
Date: 15 May 01 - 01:59 PM

Order me up a diet Coke, Alex, I'll be in in a minute, pipes under arm... You'll recognise me, I am the one in the black Uncle Ho Che Mien pajamas... (he said ducking the chairs...)
:-)
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Owlkat
Date: 15 May 01 - 02:00 PM

Hi,
YeeeeeeHa! Heat up the skillet, Everitt! We got us a live one!
But seriously, folks, speaking Canadianly, and for myself, I do confess to some south of the border envy. Americans do identify more clearly in terms of a sense of recognizable nationalism, and a cultural homogeneousness, which we still haven't quite caught onto, yet. (Hey, look at me, Ma, I'm making up new words) That is, you are less confused about who you are, where you live, and why you think it's a better place to live than other places in the world.
This is not, however, unique. Citizens of many other nations share these same notions. Unfortunately, the resulting arrogance, imperialism, and xenophobia can lead to world-views that cause tension, persecution, and bloodshed.
Yes, it's a wonderful flag, full of all kinds of history and symbols that mean all kinds of important things to you. That's why you should wave it in your own yard. Don't beat the crap out of your neighbour if he doesn't want to hang it in his yard.This notion applies to many countries in the world and not just the U.S.
Here's another idea. There's a difference between The people and A people. As a collective, Americans are not seen the same way as individuals. As an example, most of the Germans I've met, so far, have been fairly likeable people. The sound of German, however, raises the hair on my neck, and conjures images of far too many, and too recent, very evil things. I've met nice Americans and nasty ones. Some of both are my relatives. But, I believe that the existence of stereotype is based on both reality and rumour. Nice Canadians? Tell that to the Jewish refugees turned back from Canada in Halifax harbour at bayonet-point in 1939. Or, to the west coast Nisei stripped of property, rights, citizenship, and imprisoned in Canadian concentration camps, because of ignorant and racist backlashes against their Japanese cultural heritage.
Don't like Yankee-bashing? Well, the assumptions of superiority and higher morality that go with strong nationalism are lightning rods for criticism. That's just the way it is. Every nation-state in existence has had to take it. (Who do those damned Phoenicians think they are, anyway?) The stronger the national sentiments have been, so has the flak been thicker and smellier. So, if you're tired of the cheap shots, than maybe less time should be spent on foreign policy that tries to wallpaper the globe with stars and stripes. Tend your own apple trees, and maybe you'll learn to notice and appreciate your neighbours rose bushes.
Your serve,
Owl

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: mousethief
Date: 15 May 01 - 02:07 PM

I've said this before: I love living in the USA and think it's the greatest country in the world (in spite of its many warts, and don't think I don't konw they're there), and furthermore I expect every person to love his/her own country, and think it is (at least potentially, if things are bad there now) the greatest in the world. If I was sitting down with a person from Ghana, or Thailand, or wherever, drinking a beer or whatever, I'd expect him/her to say how beautiful the mountains/deserts/cities/jungles/etc. of home are, and how those of any other country can't hold a candle to them. And I'd say the same thing about my country, and we'd understand where one another were coming from.

At the same time I don't think that need be a cause for war or imperialism. If we understand that every person thinks his land is the best, there's no need to impose our way of looking at the world on anybody. The world is more than large enough for hundreds of countries, each of which is happy to be itself, and all of which can get along with one another.

Now if we could just do that -- get along with one another. For some reason that seems to be the hard part.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 May 01 - 02:52 PM

Rick said

D-Day would've turned out a lot differently (and may not have happened at all) had the Russians not taken on the brunt of the German army, giving as well as receiving staggering losses, and defeating them at Stalingrad.

That the Russians took the brunt of the Nazi war machine and won can't be argued. The fact that Stalin sent thousands of these Red Army soldiers to die in concentration camps after being "infected" by contact with their Western Allies is one of the most disgusting occurrences of the War, and worthy of that other Great Dictator of the era, Herr Hitler.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CamiSu
Date: 15 May 01 - 04:05 PM

I'm afraid "Real American" is probably real. There are several like him around here, those who think that the last shoulder added to a job is the one who did all the work and deserves everyone else's undying, complete, and vocal gratitude. While it is true that the allies were having a very hard time (can you tell I have British ancestry?) the fact is had the Europeans, Russians, and Anzac not been doing their best there would not have been a place for the U.S. to put their collective shoulder, and we couldn't have won it by ourselves. It was a group effort, and none of us should forget it.

I have an AFS student from Austria, and once, upon seeing a bank employee take down the flag at the end of the day, he said, "Now I love America. No one in Austria is proud of our country!" I must admit that I hope this is not true. But perhaps, we should concentrate more on LOVING our countries, appreciating what is good about the whole world, and doing our best to correct what is wrong.

That said, I am grateful to be an American. I appreciate that I live in this lovely area, surrounded by (mostly) wonderful people. I have also been abroad, and have seen other lovely places, populated by wonderful people. I am also aware that there are some very large warts on us, and that, as far as I know, my ancestors did not arrive here before about 1635. There are real Americans whose ancestors have been here MUCH longer. And while we have a wonderfully liberal citizenship policy, we do not treat many of our own very well. Perhaps, when we get the beam out of our own eyes, we can see to cast the mote out of out brothers'.

Kind of an aside, as a citizen of the U.S. where all children born here can be citizens, I was unaware that there are many countries where you can be a second or third generation resident, and still be considered a citizen of the country of your grandparents, even though, culturally, you identify with the country of your birth.

Peace,

CamiSu

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 01 - 04:35 PM

Cheap shots are easy, GUEST, Real American, but they lack substance.

Good thing you remembered to hide behind an anonymous pseudonym. That way, when you go overseas, no one over there will know that you're the one who offended them on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 May 01 - 05:57 PM

Guest Joe, I am indeed from Scotland, I grew up in a small village on the West Coast of Sutherland, which makes me a Highlander. btw, when I said that Americans have better manners than the British, I did not mean to imply that they have better manners than the Highland Scots, who are unfailingly the most courteous, considerate people you eould ever hope to meet.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: InOBU
Date: 15 May 01 - 06:18 PM

Dear Murray,
As I contemplate the well of seven heads, I have to wonder if Highland courtesy may be a matter of natural selection? Any thoughts brother Celt?
Slan agus beannacht
Larry (Lorcan)

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 May 01 - 08:34 PM

What's his name (I decline to use his nickname, because as far as I'm concerned he isn't) says: "My critics are the one's who have failed to name a single major battle in the Pacific won by non-Americans." How about the British 14th Army, and specifically the 5th Indian Division's defeat of the Japanese 15th Army in Assam (March-June 1944) and General Wingate's campaign in Burma?

The large amount of US aid was certainly a major factor in Russia's victory in the east, but much of it was transportation assets. It is really unlikely that much Soviet artillery ammunition came from US plants, both because the supply lines were too long and dangerous for cargo space to be wasted on expendables such as munitions and because the standard Soviet field artillery pieces were different calibres (76.5mm, 122mm and 152mm) than American (75mm, 105mm, 155mm and 8").

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Albamist
Date: 15 May 01 - 08:44 PM

Murray, you failed to add the qualifier, "except when they are sniping on the internet" then they display their inherent doureness. Having travelled quite a bit over the years, I can only say that no nation holds a monopoly on manners, good or bad. As for Real American, it is just a reality that being the most dominant and powerful nation is going to earn your country criticism, not I might add, the individual citizenry of your fine land but more often the assinine foreign policy of your elected and non-elected officials. Add to this the fact that your nation continues to elect the most obtuse individuals as leaders much like the English were led by a bunch of bufoons back in the olde Great Britain days, despite the reality of both nations having an obvious wealth of talent (just not on the political front) Regards Albamist

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Gypsy
Date: 15 May 01 - 08:45 PM

Sigh....i add to this thread a very old story. About the wise man by the river? A couple was preparing to cross, and asked him what the city was like on the other side. He asked what is was like where they had just departed. They said it was awful, filled with strife and hate. He said that is what the city across the river held. Yet another couple came up, and asked the same question. So did he. Their reply was that they hated to move, their former home was so wonderful, with loving, fabulous people. He said that they would find the same in the city across the river. You tend to get what you are looking for, in anyone. Just try it sometime.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 May 01 - 09:27 PM

Unless of course you're the results of a Klansman copulating with a buffalo........................................ .........................................like "Real American"...

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CamiSu
Date: 15 May 01 - 09:56 PM

No, Pat, he will also find what he is looking for. As Gypsy's story so rightly points out, you get what you're looking for, or perhaps more to the point, you get what you express. I never got anything but smiles when I walked down the streets of NYC, most likely because I smiled at them first... (And I once had the most fascinating few hours of talk with the old black men who were living in Grand Central Station 30 years ago...wonderful people!)

And you will note that I used quotes around what's-his-face's name, since I, to do not think his option of the name makes him any more real than any of the rest of us who live here.

CamiSu

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 May 01 - 10:07 PM

Yeah, I know what you mean Cami........Like Mav, he lives in a world where everything fits his mindset and his bigotry. Too often though, he IS the face we show to the rest of the world. I'd prefer yours.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: InOBU
Date: 15 May 01 - 10:09 PM

Gypsy? Sar San! Rom? Con vitsa? Con nasti? Murra daka janeh avin ando Berlod Romania, Lovari. My dee kos amay, Larry (Lolya)

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 01 - 10:17 PM

Actually, Spaw, if 'GUEST, Real American' is who I think he is, his father is a good man and not a klansman.

If GUEST, Real American is who I think he is, he dishonors his father, his family name, and his country with his behavior in this forum.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:05 PM

Larry, I have often wondered why nature favoured the Highland Scots and the Irish with that natural graciousness which so entrances the rest of the world. Natural selection? I don't know.

Growing up amidst the beauty of the West Highlands of Scotland, one can hardly can hardly fail to assimilate some of that beauty and grace. Likewise for the West Coast of Ireland, I imagine. I think of our mutual friend Cathal, and wonder if there has ever been a more gracious man than he? (Next time you speak to him tell him we want him down here in Florida, OK)

Apologies for this thread creep. I just can't work up any American - bashing emotions at his point in time.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: kendall
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:37 PM

This is an old story, and may have been posted here befTue, 15 May 2001 08:07:29 EDT Subject: Naval Story To: This is the transcript of the ACTUAL radio conversation of a US Naval ship and the Canadians, off the coast of Newfoundland, Oct 95. Radio conversation released by the Chief of Naval Operations 10-10-95.

CANADIANS: Please divert your course 15 degrees to the South, to avoid a collision.>

AMERICANS: Recommend you divert your course 15 degrees to the North, to avoid a collision.

CANADIANS: Negative. You will have to divert your course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.

AMERICANS: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course.

CANADIANS: Negative. I say again, You will have to divert your course.

AMERICANS: THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS LINCOLN. THE SECOND LARGEST SHIP IN THE UNITED STATES ATLANTIC FLEET. WE ARE ACCOMPANIED BY THREE DESTROYERS, THREE CRUISERS, AND NUMEROUS SUPPORT VESSELS. I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 DEGREES NORTH, I SAY AGAIN, THAT'S 15 DEGREES NORTH, OR COUNTERMEASURES WILL BE UNDERTAKEN TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THIS SHIP.

CANADIANS: We are a lighthouse. Your call.

ore, but, it needs repeating. I love stories about pricking the pompous...

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 16 May 01 - 04:13 AM

hello Thank you for answering Murray and now I am assuming you wear the Macleod of Harris Tartan please correct me if I am wrong.

Real American you Have still not Shown me any facts like what place we dropped the bomb on Japan. Who created this bomb of mass destruction and how was the bomb delivered to Japan?

Gervase Thank you of reminding me of the Gurkhas I am not to clear on the story but there was A german unit stuck between having to face a larger Us force one way and a force of Gurkhas about the same size the other the Germans chose to face the US force Because they knew we would let them surrender.

Kendall the whole lighthouse USS Lincoln is Bullshit Good story though if your into Morals.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Boab
Date: 16 May 01 - 05:06 AM

I think this thread is petering out.It has been an education, in as much as it has shown , as surely as any gallup poll , that the great majority of Americans are good folks. It is obvious that ordinary decent Americans are like me [in one respect at least]---they cannot abide arrogance being displayed by one of their own. For the record, arrogant Americans/Germans/French/Canadians don't much move me one way or the other; being a product of Caledonia,arrogant Scots break my heart---and they exist, too. [I am NOT being facetious about Murray's romanticising!!]

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: InOBU
Date: 16 May 01 - 07:43 AM

Jeeze Murray, Do ya think Cathal's brother could write a great old song about the aircraft carrier and the lighthouse?! Only kidding about natural selection, of course, we were all head hunters once... even the Smithsonian, Real American, though, the Smithonian was involved in head hunting much more recently than the rest of us!
Cheers, pals, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: kendall
Date: 16 May 01 - 09:33 AM

I know that story is BS, that wasn't the point.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: robomatic
Date: 16 May 01 - 04:53 PM

Been an American all my life, willingly. Also been overseas a few times and find that I like both the English AND the French. Now, how many Americans can say that? Every culture (and sub-culture) has its own ways. The French can be both the most polite people you'd ever want to meet, and among the most casually rude. In my experience they reserve the most rudeness for other French people and people such as those I call "Americans in plaid" not that i'm a fashion hound just a term for people who would go to a country thousands of miles away and then eat at McDonalds. The English have the most marvelous quiet spoken machismo, as the fellow narrating the Korean war story noted. If an Englishperson is really pissed off, they are 'not amused' If they went to a party and didn't enjoy anything about it it was 'a bore'. This attitude takes some getting used to from an American who typically has to learn to speak up if he or she wants to get a point across from the family table on into school and work. We are a rather loud, unsubtle bunch, but mostly good hearted. Quite often in an English room the most influential person is the most quietly spoken. I love it.

As for who saved whom in the late spot of bother in the previous century, check out Kevin Kline's little set-to with the actress playing John Cleese's wife in the movie "A Fish Called Wanda"

As for missionaries, at their best, they can bring order, literacy, and a sense of self-worth to people who feel they have nothing. At their worst, they are mental rapists who due to their own warped insecurities feel they must transmit a false salvation to people with no basic spiritual problems. The United States is a source of both kinds.

I visited The Soviet Union in the 70's and felt very positive toward the friendliness of the individuals I met there. Lately there has been a great deal of Russian - American interaction in Alaska. Again, most of the Russians who come over here are intelligent, interested folk who really appreciate being here. They are typically better educated for their tasks than the typical American, and I'll never forget the time a whole chorus came over and in an informal setting with Russian and America folkies, the Russians knew so many more folk songs than the Yanks it was incredible. And GOOD ones. I had to attibute it to way less good TV on their side of their Bering Strait.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: kendall
Date: 16 May 01 - 07:39 PM

In the movie THE THIRD MAN, Joseph Cotton told Wilfred Hyde Whyte that he had arrived in Vienna to work for a friend, only to find upon arrival that his friend was dead. My Whyte said, "Oh my, that is awkward." Great line!

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 May 01 - 08:12 PM

Great posting, robomatic. You appear to be new here, but your posts are excellent. Keep contributing.

Guest Joe, I will have to check with my kiltmaker as to what the tartan is. It is NOT shortbread-tin yellow and black , that I CAN tell you !

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 17 May 01 - 03:59 AM

Hello Murray good to hear from you the Kilt you described is of the MacLeods of Lewis the MacLeods of Harris is blue and green with red and yellow stripes. Highlander the movie actually shows the correct tartan for the Macleods of Harris

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: kendall
Date: 17 May 01 - 09:12 AM

Didn't the McLeods originate in Norway? If so, how did they get a tartan? My 13th century Scottish history is a bit fuzzy.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Gypsy
Date: 17 May 01 - 09:39 PM

inOBU, canna translate without gesticulations. Whattizzat yer sayin'?

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Boab
Date: 18 May 01 - 04:11 AM

This thread is getting saner. A science teacher in Scotland swears to the truth of the following "Attention class---what is "inertia'"? Wee boy--"Irvine , Troon and Prestwick, Sur!" Och---the Scots 'll a' get it oneywey!! Boab

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: InOBU
Date: 18 May 01 - 07:59 AM

Dear Gypsy... I was writing to you Romaness - our language, we who are Roma commonly called Gypsies, in short, Con suh? Roma?, Romanichale? Boyasha? Gitanos, Kaale, A bhfuil tu an Pavee? ... who are your people? Larry

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,jayohjo in Russia
Date: 19 May 01 - 06:34 AM

My my my my......
Well first of all, thanks for the compliments on my English *BG*. Guess I should have made my very-Britishness a bit clearer!
Secondly, I know I was sort of asking for it with the thread title, but this REALLY was not intended as an anti-American thread. I've met LOVELY Americans, and I was feeling a bit homesick and isolated, and just wanted to get some reassurance from the lovely Americans here that you're not all bonkers. I've been feeling isolated because the teacher I work with worships all aspects of American culture, refuses to see anything bad about it, and refuses to hear anything good about Britain - she'll concede Shakespeare, just, and that's about it. And American missionaries turned up, who she worshipped too, and who seemed to find my English accent hilarious. Which was a bit tedious to be honest.
Finally, going back to someone's post about Russians knowing many more folk songs, that's because in former times (and still now) there were youth groups set up by the government for all sorts of things, including traditional music and crafts. So Russian teenagers know more about their countries traditions one the one hand, but on the other it's been taught in quite a contrived way. Still good though, it means that so far a lot has not been lost - though with the onset of Westernization and the closing of youth groups, who knows.....? Anyway lots of love to the Americans who inbetween all the craziness posted here, and served the purpose of the thread (proved they were lovely!) and to everyone else too (yes everyone) and now I'll go and bargain on the market some more Jayohjo XXX