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BS: Happy Birthday, Israel

mousethief 14 May 01 - 11:35 AM
Tedham Porterhouse 14 May 01 - 06:04 PM
mousethief 14 May 01 - 06:05 PM
Celtic-End Singer 14 May 01 - 08:11 PM
GUEST 14 May 01 - 08:22 PM
GUEST,robomatic49 14 May 01 - 08:41 PM
Mrrzy 14 May 01 - 09:14 PM
Rambam99 14 May 01 - 11:04 PM
marty D 14 May 01 - 11:48 PM
DougR 15 May 01 - 01:25 AM
GUEST,Dear Celt.... please do not be angry. 15 May 01 - 01:34 AM
Bagpuss 15 May 01 - 07:12 AM
mousethief 15 May 01 - 11:23 AM
marty D 15 May 01 - 04:22 PM
Celtic-End Singer 15 May 01 - 06:45 PM
MARINER 15 May 01 - 06:48 PM
Art Thieme 15 May 01 - 09:49 PM
Mark Cohen 15 May 01 - 11:09 PM
GUEST 15 May 01 - 11:40 PM
Grab 16 May 01 - 01:17 PM
mousethief 16 May 01 - 01:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 May 01 - 01:52 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 16 May 01 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com 16 May 01 - 03:00 PM
Wavestar 16 May 01 - 03:59 PM
toadfrog 16 May 01 - 04:10 PM
robomatic 16 May 01 - 05:03 PM
marty D 16 May 01 - 06:39 PM
RichM 16 May 01 - 07:00 PM
robomatic 16 May 01 - 10:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 May 01 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,Deborah Camiel 18 May 01 - 12:47 PM
GUEST 18 May 01 - 03:59 PM
mousethief 18 May 01 - 04:03 PM
GUEST 18 May 01 - 04:58 PM
mousethief 18 May 01 - 05:33 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 18 May 01 - 07:54 PM
GUEST 18 May 01 - 09:28 PM
RichM 19 May 01 - 09:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 May 01 - 02:06 PM
GUEST 22 May 01 - 12:17 PM
RichM 22 May 01 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,of the house 26 May 01 - 12:24 PM
GUEST 26 May 01 - 01:10 PM
RichM 26 May 01 - 01:14 PM
GUEST 27 May 01 - 07:56 PM
GUEST 03 Jun 01 - 05:09 PM
Bagpuss 06 Jun 01 - 10:11 AM
Little Hawk 06 Jun 01 - 10:30 AM
Rick Fielding 06 Jun 01 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com 06 Jun 01 - 01:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jun 01 - 08:36 PM
Bill D 06 Jun 01 - 09:10 PM
marty D 06 Jun 01 - 11:08 PM
Bagpuss 07 Jun 01 - 11:05 AM
Little Hawk 07 Jun 01 - 09:53 PM
GUEST,Alex (not Mousethief) 08 Jun 01 - 01:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jun 01 - 09:34 PM
Bill D 08 Jun 01 - 09:48 PM
GUEST,Alex (not Mousethief) 08 Jun 01 - 10:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jun 01 - 06:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Jun 01 - 04:47 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 09 Jun 01 - 05:10 PM
mousethief 09 Jun 01 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,Tim M. 10 Jun 01 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,Dear World 10 Jun 01 - 11:53 AM
Bill D 10 Jun 01 - 12:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 01 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,Hamas 10 Jun 01 - 03:36 PM
marty D 10 Jun 01 - 03:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 01 - 09:10 PM
Bill D 10 Jun 01 - 09:36 PM
Bagpuss 11 Jun 01 - 06:33 AM
GUEST,Tara 11 Jun 01 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,Alex (not Mousethief) 14 Jun 01 - 04:40 PM
mousethief 14 Jun 01 - 04:52 PM

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Subject: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: mousethief
Date: 14 May 01 - 11:35 AM

I fully realize I'm courting disaster here, but I do want to wish a heartfelt Happy Birthday to the nation of Israel (May 15, 1948). May it soon come to a place of peace and prosperity that henceforth never ends.

Alex

(PS I used the prefix "BS" -- here meaning "not music-related" -- for the benefit of people searching the archives; this should not be taken as an indication of any insincerity in my message!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 14 May 01 - 06:04 PM

Alex,

The date was May 14, 1948, not the 15th.

Israel, however, celebrates the holiday according to the Hebrew lunar calendar. Yom Ha'Atzmaut, the name of the holiday, is on the 3rd of Iyar. This year, that fell on on April 26.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: mousethief
Date: 14 May 01 - 06:05 PM

Sorry; I misheard what they said on the radio.

Also not being on the Hebrew Lunar Calendar, and apparently NPR isn't either, I didn't realize the April 26th date.

Sorry.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 14 May 01 - 08:11 PM

For the record few things get me so angry as the blinkered fools who think of the State of Israel as anything other than the murderous, fascistic, evil imperialist power which it is. I don't like getting involved in these political threads and I by and large let all those IRA debates wash over me rather than get all wriled up by them and saying something stupid.

I don't intend to let this one slide.

Irsael is illegally (under international law) occupying and settling the land which it robbed from Palestinians in 1948). The state of Israel has been imposing a systematic policy of ethnic cleansing for 51 years. The State of Israel allows it to be legal to torture and inter without trial Palestinians. The State of Israel bisects Palestinian enclaves and embargoes them all round with barbed wire to destroy the economy and make these communities commercially ruined. The State of Israel consistently breaks the terms of the nuclear non-proliferation treaties with the willing help of the USA (also in violation of treaty). The same USA which conscistently vetos as a permament member of the UN Security Council every resolution which denounces the evil being perpetrated in that part of the world. As a non-American I can only conclude the American Jewish vote is bigger than the American Arab vote as there seems to be no sense of morality there.

BUT HERE'S WHAT GETS ME SOOOO VERY VERY ANGRY:

The only reason the state of Israel exists is because of the collective beneficient guilty consciences of the immediately post-war international community (especially in western Europe) which felt a great deal of shame and embarassment about the atrocities committed during Hitler's Third Reich and their relative inaction to prevent them. Yet Israel, a state which owes its political life to the international community seems to revel in a complete disregard for the international law and the western traditions of democracy and human rights which those nations thought they were fighting for from 39 to 45 and whom thought that they owed to the World's Jews.

I have lived in Palestine and as a Scottish guy who's parents are from Nationalist Derry and understands that situation well I can tell you all that was never anything done at Bloody Sunday or Loughall or Eniskillen or any of Ireland's "troubles" that come even remotely close to the organised, co-ordinated, state-sponsored evil brutaluity which is done every day in Ramallah and Hebron and other places.

I have seen mothers screaming as they hold dying children shot only a few years old shot by Israeli conscripts. I could give you chapter and verse accounts of gang-rapes, murders, tortures, murders perpetrated by Israeli soldiers. I don't intend to turn this little comment of mine into a series of anecdotal horror stories but the tradegy is these are not anecdotes, nor incidents, nor events, these are the realities of everyday life.

AND HERE'S THE OTHER THING THAT GETS ME SOOOOO VERY ANGRY:

This isn't like Northern Ireland, this isn't like the Spanish Civil War, this isn't like Vietnam. This is a subject which is open to neither debate nor discussion nor understanding. There are not however hard you try to look "two sides to the story" here. This is a very clear case of one lot of innocent humans being pretty much entirely in the right and another being pretty much entirely in the wrong. I say "pretty much" because when anyone lives ion a society like that it can make them do some pretty stupid things, and some pretty stupid things have been done on both sides.

I'm not a cheerleader for Hamas or Black September or the PLO. I'm not someone who is in favour by and large of the senseless and indescriminate (if only it was indiscriominate) waste of God's greatest achievement - our humanity. And it's for that very reason I pray every day that the international community organises itself to take a real stand for the innocent souls who die in the State of Israel every day.

I'm not here to start a debate, and I don't want to turn this into a long argumentative thread. I just wanted to say my piece.

I feel I am done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 01 - 08:22 PM

Written like a true revisionist Celtic-End Singer.
There is of course one key thing you've omitted.

Whenever you read or hear a report in the news about the Israeli army or defense forces attacking some Palestinian area, the word RETALIATED is in the same sentence. Which means, there had to be an instigator.

It is the politicians there on both sides, not the people themselves who have a major problem getting along.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST,robomatic49
Date: 14 May 01 - 08:41 PM

So I guess a little birthday cake is out of the question, Celtic? I'll put you down as a 'maybe'!


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 May 01 - 09:14 PM

Mazel tov!


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Rambam99
Date: 14 May 01 - 11:04 PM

Whenever I read something like Celtic's speech, I am poised to ask the question, in all seriousness, just what should the Jews do, or where should they go? If they abandon Israel as you seem to think they should, then what?

Mazel Tov, Eretz Y'isroel


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: marty D
Date: 14 May 01 - 11:48 PM

Sad that you just HAD to start this thread. You know full well that because of the country's controversial policies, major shit would break out. The same thing of course would happen with a "happy birthday Libya" or Cuba or Iraq or Ulster etc. You really enjoy this don't you?

marty


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: DougR
Date: 15 May 01 - 01:25 AM

Alex: I want to think that you posted this thread out of respect for the establishment of the State of Israel, not because you thought you would create controversy. In fact, I do believe that.

I also believe that the Palestistians should have a home. Hopefully, someday, there will be peace in that region. It doesn't look promising, though, I admit.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST,Dear Celt.... please do not be angry.
Date: 15 May 01 - 01:34 AM

I follow the press every day and scour the Internet among other things, hey if you have Pictures lets see them, then we can do somthing about it.

Right now all we know is what YOU report and no other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Bagpuss
Date: 15 May 01 - 07:12 AM

I feel the main reason that it is so hard to get lasting peace agreements anywhere is because all sides are focussing on who is in the wrong, who has done what to whom in the past. No-one can ever move on while they are still retaliating to the past, and retaliating to the retaliation etc.... It's not going to get any better until both sides start focussing on what they can do to ensure peace *now* for the people living there. And the people living there are certainly not going to be able to do that if the rest of the world can't seem to do it

Maybe that will never happen, but I can only live in hope.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: mousethief
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:23 AM

Thank you, Doug.

Marty, either get a license or stop psychoanalyzing me.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: marty D
Date: 15 May 01 - 04:22 PM

Alex, I call 'em as I see 'em, but you're right, my last sentence was uncalled for. I apologise. A bit of "late nite emotion" that crossed the line.

marty


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Celtic-End Singer
Date: 15 May 01 - 06:45 PM

GUEST,Dear Celt.... please do not be angry.> If pictutres is what you are after I can refer you to the pictures shown on this evening's BBC News (hardly the journalism of the radical) where the correspondent in Hebron made a point of highlighting an Israli soldier firing live rounds without aiming into a crowd of unarmed demonstrators, many of whom were barely more than children. I may also point out that Canal+ (the independent French TV station) found one of their corresspondents shot in the chest just moments after taking the pictures in question. He only survived because he was wearing a bullet-proof vest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: MARINER
Date: 15 May 01 - 06:48 PM

Retaliation ?. What was the assination of five Palestinian policemen stationed at an outpost in retaliation for. Being Palestinian and being alive??.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 May 01 - 09:49 PM

to parahrase a Jewish singer-songwriter:

God rest ye merry gentlemen
Let nothing you dismay
This May has been a rotten month
So what more can I say
Let's hope next May is better
And good things will come your way
And you won't have a feeling of dis May
Next May.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:09 PM

Alex, I have to say that at times in the past your posts have led me to feel that you were anti-Jewish (the word "anti-Semitic" being a flagrant misnomer in this context). I appreciate your post here and am glad to see I was wrong.

I have grave reservations as to many of Israel's -- and the Palestinians' -- policies and practices. I wish more attention could be paid to the thousands of Israelis and Arabs who are working very hard to forgive past crimes and to work together for peace. I wrote a message about this in an earlier thread, but can't find it.

Regarding Celtic-End Singer, when someone states, "This is a subject which is open to neither debate nor discussion nor understanding. There are not however hard you try to look 'two sides to the story' here," well, I guess he (or she) knows, and there's nothing else to say.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:40 PM

Hi Celtic;

You are a nutter..I lived in Belfast...it is as bad as it gets..I don't live there anymore because of the sheer terror of it..Odd how you manage to divide horrors into good and bad horrors..people like you are part of the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Grab
Date: 16 May 01 - 01:17 PM

The Israeli attacks often are described as retaliation. However, the retaliation is usually out of all proportion to the attack - gunfire or a mortar bomb that misses lead to all-out rocket assaults from helicopter gunships on civilian areas.

I don't argue with the founding of Israel, any more than I disagree with the founding of Bosnia or Croatia as separate entities - the Allied powers stepped in post-WWII to intervene in the same way that the UN troops should have done in Bosnia. For history up to 1997, this thesis is informative about the history of the situation and analysis of "what-if" options. Be warned though, it's big!

Re Celtic's post, the only reason Israel is occupying the Golan Heights is strategic following an all-out assault by Syria. The West Bank is more complex due to religious complications, but again was occupied following the defeat of a Jordanian attack on Israel in the Six Days War. Not to justify Israel in occupying the territory, but it does show that the situation isn't quite that one-sided.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: mousethief
Date: 16 May 01 - 01:23 PM

Thank you, Mark. I realized I had somehow been painted as a raging anti-Jewish hatemonger and one reason for starting this thread was to counter that image.

Of course one problem with threads like these, as Marty points out, is that they tend to attract raging anti-Jewish hatemongers, much as shit attracts flies.

There's no winning.

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem" -- Psalm 122

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 01 - 01:52 PM

In a chain of atrocities it is purely arbitrary which you call reprisals and which you call provocations. Or rather, the word used is just a way of letting the listener or the reader know which side the person telling the story is on.

The truth is the chain of atrocities sttretching back decades is made up of horrible things done by both sides, which are simultaneously provocations and reprisals.

The number of people killed by the Israeli forces is far far larger than the number of people killed by Palestinians - a reflection of the disparity in fire power and resources. More dead children, more dead civilians, more dead soldiers. Somebody has to stop killing first - maybe the ones who have killed the most people?

All good wishes to all the people in the Holy Land. But ethnic cleansing is not something to rejoice about, ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 May 01 - 02:21 PM

Unrest and retaliation will continue in (the former) area of Palestine for generations. Unless Israel limits its borders and returns stolen land to the Palestinians (Syria and Egypt as well), revenge actions will continue to grow. No one seems willing to aid the over two million refugees in any meaningful way. Allowing the establishment of Israel by the major powers was a mistake but it cannot now be undone. The only solution left now is to establish borders patrolled by international armed forces until some sort of truce can be maintained by UN peacekeepers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 16 May 01 - 03:00 PM

This is how I see it...there is an Israeli state. There has to be a Palestinian state. I wish they had accepted Barak's offer but they didn't. There is just not enough land or water for both populations to grow through constant immigration or births. So there should be these two states headquartered there. There should also be satellite populations elsewhere. Like in the song.."wherever Scots are gathered..." There are some countries losing populations that could accept immigrants and set up areas they would be safe and free. There are two countries that have special obligations, that I see. One is Great Britain for its historical ties to the Palestinians, so I would say they, and the entire Commonwealth at the time, including Canada and Australia, and perhaps Northern Ireland, should be in charge of resettling many of the Palestinian refugees, as well as Arab countries. We must remember that the Palestinians had nothing (that I know of ) to do with the Holocaust, and are carrying a great burden that should be given to countries that were responsible, namely Germany and Austria and others. Perhaps they could take in refugees from other countries who wanted to settle in Israel but there isn't really room or water for. Perhaps they could cooperate with other countries, and help create settlements there. Somewhere there is both land and water. The rest of the world can provide education and supplies and technicians and health workers. It is in everyone's best interest to help with this as we all know where a war could lead and we are headed down that garden path.

Another idea I have had, and I have been involved in technical education..in one year we could train many many Palestinians to be mobile health workers, cement finishers, construction workers, mechanics etc. And the UN could send them where there are natural disasters etc...earthquake teams etc..or just where there is terrible poverty...I think any solutions have to look at relieving the population pressure, moving some of both populations, freezing new settlements, and providing more education and support to the Palestinians.. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Wavestar
Date: 16 May 01 - 03:59 PM

A friend of mine quoted recently from an Iternational relations exam:

The pope has said that there are two possible hopes for the coming of peace to the world, a realistic one and a miraculous one. The realistic one would be to expect divine intervention. The miraculous one would be be to let those involved work it out on their own.

Note: I have no proof nor have I sought any that John Paul II actually said this or anything like it.

Always wishing the best to everyone, everywhere, as unrealistic as that may be, -J


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: toadfrog
Date: 16 May 01 - 04:10 PM

This is not one of these times one has warm, fuzzy feelings about Israel. The people running that place are acting crazy, and horrible things are happening. But querry, if we get stuffy about these things, who are we going to get to celebrate the 4th of July with us, when George W. Bush gets done?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: robomatic
Date: 16 May 01 - 05:03 PM

There is NO satisfaction to ANYONE involved in the deaths of children. BUT, these children are being sent into action after a lifetime of being brought up on hate.

ALSO, in the first few years of Israel's foundation, the young State took on hundreds of thousands of Jews displaced locally from neighboring Arab states. These same border states refused to take on displaced Arabs from then -Palestine now-Israel. This disparity in relative treatment of peoples was one of the main foundations of the problem we are in today, along with abysmal, dictatorial and corrupt leadership over most of the Arab states.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: marty D
Date: 16 May 01 - 06:39 PM

Mousethief said:

..."Of course one problem with threads like these, as Marty points out, is that they tend to attract raging anti-Jewish hatemongers, much as shit attracts flies."

Anti-Jewish, anti-Arab, anti-Irish Catholic, anti-Irish Protestant, anti-American etc.etc. I simply feel this forum can be interesting and imformative (with B.S. AND music) without giving bored Idealogues a place to rant on and on. Eventually it will poison the music threads completely. I suspect many people will NOT want to discuss folksongs with those they've come to believe have extremist views. Mild political differences sure; but NOT the kind of polarization that these kinds of threads expose.

Don't bother jumping on me, I know it's a losing argument.

marty


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: RichM
Date: 16 May 01 - 07:00 PM

Blood, sorrow, and time...these are the things that traditionally have "solved" problems between societies...
--and these will solve the mideast conflict too. It seems that such issues don't get resolved until everyone has paid too much of each.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: robomatic
Date: 16 May 01 - 10:56 PM

I enjoy this site as a source of information and cross-pollination. I don't have an inclination to blast any person or accuse anyone of putting on a mask of one-sided hate. I have a book entitled 'Arab-Israeli Wars' which states in the preface that what makes this problem so intractable is that it isn't a case of right versus wrong but a case of right versus right.

If you want a collateral view of an attitude rather as disturbing as anything already vented, I was at a folk dance about ten years ago as the Balkans were exploding. I was talking to a nice young thing about a movie from Yugoslavia i'd seen where some American university kids with cameras somehow got someone influential in Tito's government to call for a national display of village costumes and dances, the great variety of which were then filmed (This took place in the 50's or 60's and my memory is that it is short and black-and-white, but a must-see for Balkan dance enthusiasts). Then I said it was sad to think of people who had come together for this multi-ethnic display now fighting each other.

"Yes," said the winsome young thing, "and getting holes in all their nice costumes!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 01 - 04:34 PM

I take Marty D's point about not feeling like exchanging small talk about songs with someone you've come to the conclusion has attitudes that seem to you evil.

But there's also a value in people explaining why they think certain things, and listening to other people doing the same, and doing so in the knowledge that in spite of your differences you have a lot in common. And that is what we sometimes achieve here, when a thread about things where there is disagreement doesn't get derailed by bigotry and hate.

The thing is, there is room for an enormous amount of disagreement between friends about these kinds of issues. There is a limit, where the disagreement means that there is an end to friendship. I don't think you can be friends with someone who thinks that there are certain types of human beings (eg Arabs, Gypsies, Jews, "trailer trash" etc etc) - who just do not matter. But short of that, in an imperfect world, we can put up with a lot of weird and wonderful disagreements, and benefit from trying to understand them, and maybe adjust our own thinking as well.

A lot of the time in this world we find ourselves talking to people whom we agree with, and we reinforce our view, or when we are with people whom we disagree with, it turns into a shouting match. This can give us a chance to do something that isn't either of those things. We shouldn't blow it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST,Deborah Camiel
Date: 18 May 01 - 12:47 PM

NETANYA (Reuters) - A Palestinian suicide bomber killed six people and himself and injured 110 outside a crowded Israeli shopping mall on Friday, in the deadliest such attack since a Palestinian uprising began last year.

Witnesses said a young Arab man ``with a cold look in his eyes'' was stopped by a security guard as he tried to enter the mall in the seaside city of Netanya and then detonated explosives attached to a belt around his waist.

The blast hurled bodies through the air. Mangled body parts later littered the area, along with shattered glass and twisted metal. Bloodied survivors screamed for help and witnesses wept.

The militant Islamic group Hamas claimed responsibility for the bombing at a rally in Gaza and said it was in response to the killing of five Palestinian paramilitary policemen on Monday in the West Bank, an attack Israel has since called a mistake.

The bomber was named as 21-year-old Mahmoud Ahmed Marmash, a Hamas member from the West Bank town of Tulkarm, 16 km (10 miles) to the east. His mother, who did not know he was a Hamas member, said he had been a devout Muslim who gave her a bag of sweets before setting off on his suicide mission.

Palestinian gunmen shot dead an Israeli driving near a Jewish settlement close to the West Bank city of Ramallah on Friday, the Israeli army said. A woman was seriously wounded.

President Bush condemned the ``new level of intensity'' in Middle East violence and urged leaders to take a speak out clearly against violence.

U.N. Middle East envoy Terje Roed-Larsen called urgently for political dialogue between Israelis and Palestinians, saying ``the situation is on the verge of escalating to uncontrollable levels.''

The explosion in Netanya, just north of Tel Aviv, tore down the front facade of the modern indoor mall, creating panic among shoppers who had packed stores ahead of the Jewish sabbath.

An abandoned pram stood upright among the rubble. Police said the baby had survived but was in serious condition.

Police said the dead were four women and three men, including the suicide bomber. It said 110 had been hurt, some of them critically.

A dead man lay sprawled face-down on the sidewalk after the blast, and the ground was stained with blood.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 01 - 03:59 PM

McGrath of Harlow wrote:

"The number of people killed by the Israeli forces is far far larger than the number of people killed by Palestinians - a reflection of the disparity in fire power and resources. More dead children, more dead civilians, more dead soldiers. Somebody has to stop killing first - maybe the ones who have killed the most people?"

By McGrath's logic, Israel should not offer a reprisal for this latest bombing and murder of innocent civilians.

As much as I long for peace, I know that such terrorism will always be responded to by any country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: mousethief
Date: 18 May 01 - 04:03 PM

So both sides expect the other to let them have the last shot. So it goes on indefinitely. "Terrorism" is defined of course as "what the other guy does to us" and "Retaliation" is "what we do to the other guy."

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 01 - 04:58 PM

Alex, are you actually suggesting that Hamas' suicide bombers, whose mission is to kill as many civilians as possible while blowing themselves up, are not terrorists?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: mousethief
Date: 18 May 01 - 05:33 PM

No, I am not suggesting that at all. Thank you for asking me.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 May 01 - 07:54 PM

Is Guest trying to suggest that civilians can be separated from soldiers or "terrorists?" "civilians" are responsible for forming military and resistance groups; they cannot be divorced from the violent actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 01 - 09:28 PM

Dicho, you seem to be suggesting that the six civilians who were killed and the 110 who were injured and maimed by the terrorist bomber, got what they deserved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: RichM
Date: 19 May 01 - 09:44 PM

Nobody in Israel is without blame. The people who support terrorism, state sanctioned or otherwise-ie, BOTH sides are to blame. Each side wants to win, and in this way both sides continue to lose - not the war, but the peace.



I am continually amazed at the irony: a people from the injustices and horror of the ghettos and concentration camps of Europe, build a society in Israel that survives by constant repression of those already resident in the country.
And after 50 years of repression,those prior residents don't have the clarity or good will to be generous in negotiations. It seems that anger, revenge, and stupidity must run its course before saner solutions are allowed.

Rich McCarthy


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 01 - 02:06 PM

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Hamas is not engaged in terrorist activities. However Hamas would argue that these are reprisals for terrorist activities carried out by Israeli forces. The same logic the Israeli authorities use when they justify killing innocent people, including a four-month old baby, in reprisal raids. "Collateral damage" as Timothy McVeigh would call it.

I do not think that responding to acts of terrorist by acts of further terrorist is ever justified. It also doesn't work, if the aim is to stop the other side reacting violently.

And in fact I do not think it is intended to achieve that, whatever is claimed by apologists for the killers on both sides. The aim of reprisals is in fact often to ensure that there are counter reprisals, and in this way to keep the pot boiling, and squeeze out people on your own side who might try to make peace with the enemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 01 - 12:17 PM

RichM seems to disagree with the suggestion that the victims of the Hamas terrorists, including a 10 year old boy, are innocent civilians when he (RichM) writes: "Nobody in Israel is without blame."

Exactly. And that is the same logic that dictates that every American is to blame for the FBI murders in Waco and at Ruby Ridge.

By RichM's logic, the people in Oklahoma City, including the children, got what they deserved because they were not without blame for the American Government's actions at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

Excuse me while I throw up!


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: RichM
Date: 22 May 01 - 01:20 PM

The Islaeli/Palestinian conflict has many roots. Both cultures are suspicious of each other, at the best of times. Intermarriage is frowned upon, and can be dangerous for the people involved.

Based on this kind of suspicion, any hostile acts are considered as "them" vs "us", rather than the act of individuals or groups within the main populations.

To separate the ultimate deadly acts from the context of the societies involved, is an artificial concept. Since I come from forebears that were persecuted, I can understand the mindset of both Palestinians and Jews, when they claim the high ground in this conflict. Both feel they are the victims.

Guest accuses me of not seeing the Hamas terrorists as totally evil- and of condoning the death of children in Oklahoma City.

Oh, please-- spare me the histrionics. Its so much easier, isn't it,Guest--to call for revenge and retribution? Do you think that the situation in Israel is to be solved by pronouncing one side totally guilty, and the other totally blameless?
It's not until both sides can reject victim-hood--and have the emotional strength to rise above current conflict-to actively CHOOSE dialogue- can there be any chance of resolution before it inevitably runs its dreary course of blood, sorrow, and time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST,of the house
Date: 26 May 01 - 12:24 PM

Neighbourhood Bully

by Bob Dylan

Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man, His enemies say he's on their land. They got him outnumbered about a million to one, He got no place to escape to, no place to run. He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully just lives to survive, He's criticized and condemned for being alive. He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin, He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in. He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land, He's wandered the earth an exiled man. Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn, He's always on trial for just being born. He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized, Old women condemned him, said he should apologize. Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad. The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad. He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him, 'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac. He's the neighborhood bully.

He got no allies to really speak of. What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love. He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side. He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace, They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease. Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly. To hurt one they would weep. They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep. He's the neighborhood bully.

Every empire that's enslaved him is gone, Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon. He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand, In bed with nobody, under no one's command. He's the neighborhood bully.

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon, No contract he signed was worth what it was written on. He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth, Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health. He's the neighborhood bully.

What's anybody indebted to him for? Nothin', they say. He just likes to cause war. Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed, They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed. He's the neighborhood bully.

What has he done to wear so many scars? Does he change the course of rivers? Does he pollute the moon and stars? Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill, Running out the clock, time standing still, Neighborhood bully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 01 - 01:10 PM

Dylan was always a propagandist. That song is Zionist propaganda. What else would you expect from him?

He changed his name from Zimmerman to Dylan so people wouldn't think he was Jewish.

He made a big deal about finding Jesus for a few years.

But once a Jew, always a Jew.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: RichM
Date: 26 May 01 - 01:14 PM

Dear Guest: Once a bigot, always a bigot?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 01 - 07:56 PM

It is a fact that the American Jewish establishment remains Israel's biggest source of money and propaganda. Dylan's song is obvious Zionist propaganda. I'd be willing to bet that Dylan is also a big financial contributor to Israel.

So keep on buying those Dylan cd's if you want the money to go to Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 01 - 05:09 PM

For the past two weeks Israel has followed a policy of restraint and has not responded to Palestinian violence.

Friday night, Islamic Jihad claimed credit for sending a terrorist suicide bomber to Tel Aviv. He killed 17 people and injured another 92, tearing arms or legs off of many.

Almost all of those killed were teenagers. Most of them were from families who had come from Russia since the fall of the SOviet Union.

But, as RichM says, "nobody in Israel is without blame." So, I suppose those teenagers got what they deserved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Bagpuss
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 10:11 AM

A friend sent me this, and I thought this would be a good place to post it for reasonable debate and comment. I realise it is very long, so some of you might want to print it out before trying to read it.

Bagpuss

The following document was published (in Hebrew) today April 13 as a whole page ad in Ha'aaretz. You may have seen it already but we want to make sure that you don't miss it. It can be downloaded in Hebrew (also English) from the Gush Shalom website http:www.gush-shalom.org

We think time has come to take certain discussions out of the closet, to campaign widely for a revision of the myths of Zionist history and publicly facing the truth about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

If you have time and patience, it might be worthwhile to read it carefully. We shall welcome your thoughts, remarks and amendments. This is intended to start a national and international debate.

Gush Shalom Draft - 80 Theses for a New Peace Camp

1.The peace process has collapsed--and taken down with it a large part of the Israeli peace camp.

2.Transient circumstances, such as personal or party- political matters, failures of leadership, political self- interest, domestic and global political developments-- all these are like foam over the waves. Important as they may be, they cannot adequately explain the total collapse.

3.The true explanation can only be found beneath the surface, at the roots of the historical conflict between the two nations.

4.The Madrid-Oslo process failed because the two sides were seeking to realize conflicting goals.

5.The goals of each of the two sides emanated from their basic national interests. They were shaped by their historical narratives, by their disparate views of the conflict over the last 120 years. The Israeli national historical version and the Palestinian national historical version are entirely contradictory, on the whole and in every single detail.

6.The negotiators and the decision-makers on the Israeli side acted in complete oblivion of the Palestinian national narrative. Even when they had sincere good-will to come to a solution, their efforts were doomed to fail as they could not understand the national desires, traumas, fears and hopes of the Palestinian people. While there is no symmetry between the two sides, the Palestinian attitude was similar.

7.Resolution of such a long historical conflict is possible only if each side is capable of understanding the other's spiritual-national world and willing to approach him as an equal. An insensitive, condescending and overbearing attitude precludes any possibility of an agreed solution.

8.The Barak Government, which had inspired so much hope, was afflicted with all these attitudes, hence, the enormous gap between its initial promise and the disastrous results.

9.A significant part of the old peace camp (also called the "Zionist Left" or the "Sane Constituency") is similarly afflicted and therefore collapsed along with the government it supported.

10.Therefore, the primary role of a new Israeli peace camp is to get rid of the false myths and the one-sided view of the conflict. This does not mean that the Israeli narrative should automatically be rejected and the Palestinian narrative unquestionably accepted. But it does require open- minded listening and understanding of the other position in the historical conflict, in order to bridge the two national narratives.

11.Any other way will lead to an unending continuation of the conflict, with periods of ostensible tranquility and conciliation frequently interrupted by eruptions of violent hostile actions between the two nations and between Israel and the Arab world. Considering the pace of development of weapons of mass destruction, further rounds of hostility could lead to the destruction of all sides to the conflict.

The Root of the Conflict

12.The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the continuation of the historical clash between the Zionist Movement and the Palestinian Arab people, a clash that began at the end of the 19th century and has yet to end.

13.The Zionist Movement was, essentially, a Jewish reaction to the emergence of the national movements in Europe, all of which were hostile to Jews. Having been rejected by the European nations, some of the Jews decided to establish themselves as a separate nation and, following the new European model, to set up their own national State where they could be masters of their own fate. The principle of separation, which formed the basis of the Zionist idea, had far- reaching consequences later on. The basic Zionist tenet, that a minority cannot exist in a national- homogenous state according to the European model, let later to the practical exclusion of the national minority in the Zionist state that came into being after 50 years.

14.Traditional and religious motives drew the Zionist Movement to Palestine (Eretz Israel in Hebrew) and the decision was made to establish the Jewish State in this land. The maxim was "a land without a people for a people without a land". This maxim was not only created out of ignorance, but also out of the general arrogance towards non-European peoples that prevailed in Europe at that time.

15.Palestine was not empty--not at the end of the 19th century nor at any other period. At that time, there were half a million people living in Palestine, 90% of them Arabs. This population objected, of course, to the incursion of another nation into their land.

16.The Arab National Movement emerged almost simultaneously with the Zionist Movement, initially to fight the Ottoman Empire and later to fight the colonial regimes created upon its destruction at the end of World War I. A separate Arab- Palestinian national movement developed in the country after the British created a separate State called "Palestine", and in course of the struggle against the Zionist infiltration.

17.Since the end of World War I, there has been an ongoing struggle between two nationalist movements, the Jewish- Zionist and the Palestinian-Arab, both of which aspired to accomplish their goals -- which entirely negate each other - - within the same territory. This situation remains unchanged to this day.

18.As Jewish persecution in Europe intensified, and as the countries of the world closed their gates to the Jews attempting to flee the inferno, so the Zionist Movement gained strength. The Holocaust, which took the lives of six million Jews, gave moral and political power to the Zionist claim that led to the establishment of the State of Israel.

19.The Palestinian People, witnessing the growth of the Jewish population in their land, could not comprehend why they were required to pay the price for crimes committed against the Jews by Europeans. They violently objected to further Jewish immigration and to the acquisition of lands by the Jews.

20.The complete oblivion of each of the two peoples to the national existence of the other inevitably led to false and distorted perceptions that took root deep in the collective consciousness of both. These perceptions affect their attitude towards each other to this day.

21.The Arabs believed that the Jews had been implanted in the country by Western Imperialism, in order to subjugate the Arab world and take control of its treasures. This conviction was strengthened by the fact that the Zionist movement, from the outset, strove for an alliance with at least one Western power (Germany, Great Britain, France, the U.S.A.) to overcome the Arab resistance. The results were a practical cooperation and a community of interests between the Zionist enterprise and imperialist and colonialist forces, directed against the Arab national movement.

22.The Jews, on the other hand, were convinced that the Arab resistance to the Zionist enterprise -- intended to save the Jews from the flames of Europe -- was the consequence of the murderous nature of the Arabs and of Islam. In their eyes, Arab fighters were "gangs", and the uprisings of the time were called "riots". (Actually, in the 1920's, the most extreme Zionist leader, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, was almost alone to recognize that the Arab resistance to the Zionist settlement was an inevitable, natural and from this point of view just reaction of a "native" people defending their country against foreign invaders. Jabotinsky also recognized the fact that the Arabs in the country were a separate national entity and derided attempts made to bribe the leaders of other Arab countries to put an end to the Palestinian Arab resistance. However, Jabotinsky's conclusion was to erect a "wall of steel" against the Arabs and to crush their resistance by force.)

23.This total contradiction in the perception of the facts affects every aspect of the conflict. For example, the Jews interpreted their struggle for "Jewish Labor" as a progressive social effort to transform a nation of merchants and speculators into one of workers and farmers. The Arabs, on the other hand, saw it as a criminal attempt by the Zionists to dispossess them, to evict them from the labor market and to create, on their land, an Arab-free, separatist Jewish economy.

24.The Zionists were proud of their "Redemption of the Land". They had purchased it for full value with money collected from Jews around the world. "Olim" (new immigrants, literally pilgrims) who had been intellectuals and merchants in their former life, now earned their living with the sweat of their brow. They believed that they had achieved all this by peaceful means and without dispossessing a single Arab. For the Arabs this was a cruel narrative of dispossession and expulsion: The Jews acquired lands from rich absentee Arab landowners and then forcibly evicted the fellahin who had, for generations, been living on and earning their living from these lands. To help them in this effort, the Zionists engaged the Turkish and, later, the British police. The Arabs looked on, despairingly, as their land was taken from them.

25.Against the Zionist claim of having successfully "turned the desert into a garden", the Arabs cited the testimonies of European travelers who spoke of a Palestine that, for several centuries, had described Palestine as a populated and flourishing land, the equal of any of its regional neighbors.

Independence and Disaster

26.The contrast between the two national versions peaked in the war of 1948, a war called "the War of Independence" or even "the War of Liberation" by the Jews, and "El Naqba", the disaster, by the Arabs.

27.As the conflict intensified in the region, and with the resounding impact of the Holocaust, the United Nations decided to divide the country into two States, Jewish and Arab. Jerusalem and its environs were supposed to remain a separate unit, under international jurisdiction. The Jews were allotted 55% of the land including the unpopulated Negev.

28.The Zionist Movement accepted the partition plan, convinced that the crucial issue was to establish a firm foundation for Jewish sovereignty. In closed meetings, David Ben-Gurion never concealed his intention to expand, at the first opportunity, the territory given to the Jews. That is why Israel's Declaration of Independence did not define the country's borders and the country has remained without definite borders to this day.

29.The Arab world did not accept the partition plan and regarded it a vile attempt of the United Nations, which essentially was at the time a club of Western and Communist nations, to divide a country that did not belong to it. Handing over most of the country to the Jewish minority, which represented a mere third of the population, made it all the more unforgivable in their eyes.

30.The war initiated by the Arabs after the partition plan was, inescapably, an "ethnic" war; a kind of war in which each side seeks to conquer as much land as possible and evict the population of the other side. Such a campaign (which later came to be called "ethnic cleansing") always involves expulsion and atrocities.

31.The war of 1948 was a direct extension of the Zionist- Arab conflict in which each side sought to fulfill its aims. The Jews wanted to establish a homogenous, national State that would be as large as possible. The Arabs wanted to eradicate the Zionist Jewish entity that had been established in Palestine.

32.Both sides practiced ethnic cleansing as an integral part of the fighting. There were not many Arabs remaining in territories captured by the Jews and no Jews remained in territories captured by the Arabs. However, as the territories captured by the Jews were by far larger than those captured by the Arabs, the result was unbalanced. (The ideas of "population exchange" and "transfer" were raised in Zionist organizations as early as in the 1930's. Effectively this meant the expulsion of the Arab population from the country. On the other side, many among the Arabs believed that the Zionists should go back to wherever they came from.)

33.The myth of "the few against the many" was cultivated by the Jews to describe the stand of the Jewish community of 650,000 against the entire Arab world of over a hundred million. The Jewish community lost 1% of its people in the war. The Arabs painted a completely different picture: A fragmented Arab population with no national leadership to speak of, with no unified command over its meager forces, with poor, few and mostly obsolete weapons, confronting an extremely well organized Jewish community that was highly trained in the use of its weapons. The neighboring Arab countries betrayed the Palestinians and, when they finally did send their armies, they primarily operated in competition with each other, with no coordination and no common plan. From the social and military point of view, the fighting capabilities of the Israeli side were far superior to those of the Arab states, which had hardly emerged from the colonial era.

34.According to the United Nations plan, the Jewish State was supposed to include an Arab population amounting to about 40%. During the war the Jewish State expanded its borders and ended up with 78% of the area of the land. This area was nearly devoid of Arabs. The Arab populations of Nazareth and a few villages in the Galilee remained almost incidentally; the villages in the Triangle had been given to Israel as part of a deal by King Abdullah and, therefore, could not be evacuated.

35.In the war a total of 750,000 Palestinians were uprooted. Some of them fled out of fear of the battle, as civilian populations do in every war. Some were driven away by acts of terror such as the Dir-Yassin Massacre. Others were systematically evicted in the course of the ethnic cleansing.

36.No less important than the expulsion is the fact that the refugees were not allowed to return to their homes when the battles were over, as is the practice after a conventional war. Quite to the contrary, the new Israel saw the removal of the Arabs very much as a blessing and proceeded to totally demolish 450 Arab villages. New Jewish villages were built on the ruins, and new Hebrew names were given to them. The abandoned houses in the cities were repopulated with new immigrants.

"A Jewish State"

37.The signing of the cease-fire agreements at the end of the war of 1948 did not bring an end to the historical conflict. That was, in fact, raised to new and more intensive levels.

38.The new State of Israel dedicated its early years to the consolidation of its homogenous national character as a "Jewish State". Large sections of land were expropriated from the "absentees" (the refugees), from those officially designed as "present absentees" (Arabs who physically remained in Israel but were not allowed to become citizens) and even from the Arab citizens of Israel, most of whose lands were taken over. On these lands a dense network of Jewish communities was created. Jewish "Immigrants" were invited and even coaxed to come in masses. This great effort fortified the State's power several times over in but a few years.

39.At the same time the State vigorously conducted a policy to obliterate the Palestinian entity as a national entity. With Israeli help, the Trans-Jordan monarch, Abdullah, took control over the West Bank and since then there is, in effect, an Israeli military guarantee for the existence of the Kingdom of Jordan.

40.The main rationale of the treaty between Israel and the Hashemite Kingdom, which has been in effect for three generations, was to prevent the establishment of an independent Arab-Palestinian State, which was considered "then and now" as an obstacle to the realization of the Zionist objective.

41.A historical change occurred at the end of the 1950's on the Palestinian side when Yasser Arafat and his associates founded the Fatah Movement designed to free the Palestinian liberation movement from the custody of the Arab governments. It was no accident that this movement emerged after the failure of the great Pan-Arab concept whose most renowned representative was Gamal Abd-el- Nasser. Up to this point many Palestinians had hoped to be absorbed into a united All-Arab Nation. When this hope faded, the separate National Palestinian identity re-emerged.

42.The Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) was created by Gamal Abd-el- Nasser to prevent autonomous Palestinian action that might involve him in an undesired war with Israel. The organization was intended to impose Egyptian authority over the Palestinians. However, after the Arab defeat in the June 1967 war, Fatah, led by Yasser Arafat, took control over the PLO and has been the sole representative of the Palestinian people ever since.

"The Six Day War"

43.The June 1967 war is seen in a very different light by the two sides, as has every incident in the last 120 years. According to the Israeli myth, this was a desperate war of defense, which miraculously placed a lot of land in Israel's hands. According to the Palestinian myth, the leaders of Egypt, Syria and Jordan fell into a trap set by Israel in order to capture whatever was left of Palestine.

44.Many Israelis believe that "the Six Day War" was the root of all evil and it was only then that the peace-loving and progressive Israel turned into a conqueror and an occupier. This conviction allows them to maintain the absolute purity of Zionism and the State of Israel up to that point in history and preserve their old myths. There is no truth to this legend.

45.The war of 1967 was yet another phase of the old struggle between the two national movements. It did not change the essence; it only changed the circumstances. The essential objectives of the Zionist Movement-- a Jewish State, expansion, and settlement-- were making great strides. The particular circumstances made extensive ethnic cleansing impossible in this war, but several hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were nevertheless expelled.

46.Israel was allotted 55% of the land (Palestine) by the 1947 partition plan, an additional 23% were captured in the 1948 war and now the remaining 22%, across the "Green Line: (the pre-1967 armistice line), were also captured. In 1967 Israel inadvertently united the Palestinian people (including some of the refugees) under its rule.

47.As soon as the war ended, the Settlement Movement began. Almost every political faction in the country participated in this movement --from the messianic-nationalistic "Gush Emunim" to the "leftist" United Kibbutz Movement. The first settlers received broad support from most politicians, left and right, from Yigal Alon (the Jewish settlement in Hebron) to Shimon Peres (the Kdumim settlement).

48.The fact that all governments of Israel cultivated and advanced the settlements, albeit to differing extents, proves that the settlement aspiration was restricted to no specific ideological camp and extended to the entire Zionist Movement. The impression that has been created of a small minority driving the Settlement Movement is illusionary. Only a consolidated effort on the part of all Government Agencies since 1967 and till today could have produced the legislative, the strategic and the budgetary infrastructure required for such a long-lasting and expensive endeavor.

49.The legislative infrastructure incorporates the misleading assumption that the Occupation Authority is the owner of "government-owned lands", although these are the essential land reserves of the Palestinian population. It is self- evident that the Settlement Movement contravenes International Law.

50.The dispute between the proponents of the "Greater Israel" and those of "Territorial Compromise" is essentially a dispute about the way to achieve the basic Zionist aspiration: a homogenous Jewish State in as large a territory as possible. The proponents of""compromise" emphasize the demographic issue and want to prevent the inclusion of the Palestinian population in the State. The "Greater Israel" adherents place the emphasis on the geographic issue and believe (privately or publicly) that it is possible to expel the non-Jewish population from the country (code name: "Transfer").

51.The General Staff of the Israeli army played an important role in the planning and building of the Settlements. It created the map of the settlements (identified with Ariel Sharon): blocs of settlements and bypass roads, lateral and longitudinal, so that the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are chopped up into pieces and the Palestinians are imprisoned in isolated enclaves, each of which is surrounded by settlements and the occupation forces.

52.The Palestinians employed several methods of resistance, mainly raids across the Jordanian and Lebanese borders and attacks inside Israel and everywhere in the world. These acts are called "terrorist" by the Israelis while the Palestinians see them as the legitimate resistance of an occupied nation. The PLO leadership, headed by Yasser Arafat, had long been considered a terrorist leadership by the Israelis but has gradually come to be internationally recognized as the "sole legitimate representative" of the Palestinian people.

53.When the Palestinians realized that these actions do not put an end to the settlement momentum, which gradually pulled the land from under their feet, at the end of 1987 they launched the Intifadah -- a grassroots uprising of all sectors of the population. In this Intifidah, 1500 Palestinians were killed, among them hundreds of children, several times over the number of Israeli losses.

The Peace Process

54.The October 1973 war, which commenced with the surprise victory of the Egyptian and Syrian forces and culminated with their defeat, convinced Yasser Arafat and his close associates that there is no military way to achieve the national Palestinian objectives. He decided to embark upon a political path to reach agreement with Israel and to allow, at least, a partial achievement of the national goals through negotiation.

55.To prepare the ground for this, Arafat created contact for the first time with Israeli personalities who could make an impact on public opinion and on government policy in Israel. His emissaries (Said Hamami and Issam Sartawi) met with Israeli public figures, the peace pioneers who in 1975 established the "Israeli Council for Israeli- Palestinian Peace".

56.These contacts as well as the growing fatigue felt by the Israelis of the Intifadah, the Jordanian withdrawal from the West Bank, changing international conditions (the collapse of the Communist Bloc, the Gulf War) led to the Madrid Conference and, later, to the Oslo Agreement.

The Oslo Agreement

57.The Oslo Agreement had positive and negative qualities.

58.On the positive side, this agreement brought Israel to its first official recognition of the Palestinian People and its national leadership and brought the National Palestinian Movement to its recognition of the existence of Israel. In this respect the agreement (and the exchange of letters that preceded it) were of paramount historical significance.

59.In effect, the agreement gave the National Palestinian Movement a territorial base on Palestinian land, the structure of a "state in the making" and armed forces-- facts that would play an important role in the ongoing Palestinian struggle. For the Israelis, the agreement opened the gates to the Arab world and put an end to Palestinian attacks --as long as the agreement was effective.

60.The most substantive flaw in the agreement was that both sides hoped to achieve entirely different objectives. The Palestinians saw it as a temporary agreement paving the way to the end of the occupation, the establishment of a Palestinian State in all the occupied territories. On the other hand, the respective Israeli governments regarded it as a way to maintain the occupation in large sections of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, with the Palestinian self- government filling the role of an auxiliary security agency protecting Israel and the settlements.

61.Therefore, Oslo did not represent the beginning of the process to end the conflict but, rather, another new phase of the conflict.

62.Because the expectations of both sides were so divergent and each remained entirely bound to its own national "narrative", every section of the agreement was interpreted differently. Ultimately, many parts of the agreement were not carried out, mainly by Israel (the third withdrawal, the four safe passages, and others).

63.Throughout the period of the "Oslo Process" Israel continued its vigorous expansion of the settlements, primarily by creating new ones under various guises, expanding existing ones, building an elaborate network of "bypass" roads, expropriating land, demolishing houses and uprooting plantations etc. The Palestinians, on their part, used the time to build their strength, both within the framework of the agreement and without it. In fact, the historical confrontation continued unabated under the guise of negotiations and the "Peace Process", which became a proxy for actual peace.

64.In contradistinction to his image, which became more pronounced after his assassination, Yitzhak Rabin kept the conflict alive "in the field", while simultaneously managing the political process to achieve peace, on Israeli terms. As he was a disciple of the Zionist "narrative" and accepted its mythology, he suffered from cognitive dissonance when his hopes for peace clashed with his conceptual world. It appears that he began to internalize some parts of the Palestinian historical narrative only at the very end of his life.

65.The case of Shimon Peres is much more severe. He created for himself an international image of a peacemaker and even designed his language to reflect this image ("the New Middle East") while remaining essentially a traditional Zionist hawk. This became clear in the short and violent period that he served as Prime Minister after the assassination of Rabin and, again, in his current acceptance of the role of spokesman and apologist for Sharon.

66.The clearest expression of the Israeli dilemma was provided by Ehud Barak who came to power completely convinced of his ability to cut the Gordian knot of the historical conflict in one dramatic stroke, in the fashion of Alexander the Great. Barak approached the issue in total ignorance of the Palestinian narrative and with disrespect to its importance. He presented his proposals as ultimatums and was appalled and enraged by their rejection.

67.In the eyes of himself and the Israeli side at large, Barak "turned every stone" and made the Palestinians "more generous offers than any previous Prime Minister". In exchange, he wanted the Palestinians to sign off on "an end to the conflict". The Palestinians considered this a preposterous pretension since Barak was effectively asking them to relinquish their basic national aspiration, such as the Right of Return and sovereignty in East Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. Moreover, while Barak presented the claims for the annexation of territories as matter of negligible percentages ("Settlement Blocs"), according to Palestinian calculations this amounted to an actual annexation of 20% of the land beyond the Green Line.

68.In the Palestinian view, they had already made the decisive compromise by agreeing to establish their State within the Green Line, in merely 22% of their historical homeland. Therefore, they could only accept minor border changes in the context of territorial swaps. The traditional Israeli position is that the achievements of the war of 1948 are established facts that cannot be disputed and the compromise required must focus on the remaining 22%.

69.As with most terms and concepts, the word "concession" has different meanings for both sides. The Palestinians believe that they have already "conceded" 78% of their land when they agreed to accept 22% of it. The Israelis believe that they are "conceding" when they agree to "give" the Palestinians parts of those same 22% (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip).

70.The Camp David Summit in the summer of 2000, which was imposed on Arafat against his will, was premature and brought things to a climax. Barak's demands, presented at the summit as Clinton's, were that the Palestinians agree to end the conflict by conceding the Right of Return and the Return itself; to accept complicated arrangements for East Jerusalem and the Temple Mount without achieving sovereignty over them; to agree to large territorial annexations in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and to an Israeli military presence in other large areas and to Israeli control over the borders separating the Palestinian State from the rest of the world. No Palestinian leader would ever sign such an agreement and thus the summit ended in deadlock and the termination of the careers of Clinton and Barak.

The El-Aqsa Intifadah

71.The breakdown of the summit, the elimination of any hope for an agreement between the two sides and the unconditional pro-Israeli stance of the Americans, inevitably led to another round of violent confrontations, which earned the title of the El-Aqsa Intifadah. For the Palestinians, this is a justified national uprising against the protracted occupation, which has no end in sight and allows continual and daily pulling of their land from under their feet. For the Israelis, this is an outburst of murderous terrorism. The performers of these acts appear to the Palestinians as national heroes and to the Israelis as merciless criminals who must be liquidated.

72.The official media in Israel no longer mention settlers but speak of "residents" upon whom any attack is a crime against civilians. The Palestinians consider the settlers the forefront of a dangerous enemy force whose intention is to dispossess them of their land and who must be defeated.

73.A great part of the Israeli "Peace Camp" collapsed during the al-Aqsa Intifadah and it turns out that many of its convictions had feet of clay. Especially after Barak had "turned every stone" and made "more generous offers than any previous Prime Minister", the Palestinian behavior was incomprehensible to this part of the "Peace Camp", since it had never performed a thorough revision of the Zionist "narrative" and did not internalize the fact that there is a Palestinian "narrative" too. The only remaining explanation was that the Palestinians had deceived the Israeli Peace Camp, that they had never intended to make peace and that their true purpose is to throw the Jews into the sea, as the Zionist right has always claimed.

74.As a result, the dividing line between the Zionist "right" and "left" disappeared. The leaders of the Labor Party joined the Sharon Government and became his most effective apologists (Shimon Peres) and even the formal leftist opposition (Yossi Sarid) took part. This again proves that the Zionist narrative is the decisive factor unifying all facets of the political system in Israel, making the distinctions between Rehavam Zeevi and Avraham Burg, Yitzhak Levi and Yossi Sarid insignificant.

75.There is a notable decline in the Palestinian willingness to reopen a dialogue with the Israeli peace forces, a consequence of the utter disappointment from the "leftist government" which had inspired so much hope after the Netanyahu years, as well as a consequence of the fact that apart from the small radical peace groups no Israeli outrage at the brutal reactions of the occupation forces has been heard. The tendency to tighten ranks, typical to any nation in a war of liberation, makes it possible for the extreme nationalistic and religious forces on the Palestinian side to veto any attempt at Israeli- Palestinian cooperation.

A New Peace Camp

76.The breakdown of the old peace camp necessitates the creation of a new Israeli peace camp that will be real, up- to-date, effective and strong, that can influence the Israeli public and bring about a complete re-evaluation of the old axioms in order to effect a change in the Israeli political system.

77.To do so, the new peace camp must lead public opinion to a brave reassessment of the national "narrative" and rid it of false myths. It must strive to unite the historical versions of both people into a single "narrative", free from historical deceptions, which will be acceptable to both sides.

78.While doing this it must also educate the Israeli public that along with all the beautiful and positive aspects of the Zionist enterprise, a terrible injustice was done to the Palestinian people. This injustice, which peaked during the "Naqba", obliges us to assume responsibility and correct as much of it as is possible.

79.With a new understanding of the past and the present, the new peace camp must formulate a peace plan based on the following principles:

(i)An independent and free Palestinian State will be established alongside Israel.

(ii)The Green Line will be the border between the two States. If agreed between the two sides, limited territorial exchanges may be possible.

(iii)The Israeli settlements will be evacuated from the territory of the Palestinian State.

(iv)The border between the two States will be open to the movement of people and goods, subject to arrangements made by mutual agreement.

(v)Jerusalem will be the capital of both States-- West Jerusalem the capital of Israel and East Jerusalem capital of Palestine. The State of Palestine will have complete sovereignty in East Jerusalem, including the Haram al- Sharif (the Temple Mount). The State of Israel will have complete sovereignty in West Jerusalem, including the Western Wall and the Jewish Quarter. Both States will reach agreement on the unity of the city on the physical, municipal level.

(vi)Israel will recognize, in principle, the Palestinian Right of Return as an inalienable human right. The practical solution to the problem will come about by agreement based on just, fair and practical considerations and will include return to the territory of the State of Palestine, return to the State of Israel and compensation.

(vii)The water resources will be controlled jointly and allocated by agreement, equally and fairly.

(viii)A security agreement between the two States will ensure the security of both and take into consideration the specific security needs of Israel as well as of Palestine.

(ix)Israel and Palestine will cooperate with other States in the region, to establish a Middle Eastern community, modeled on the European Union.

80.The signing of a Peace agreement and its honest implementation in good faith will lead to a historical reconciliation between the two nations, based on equality, cooperation and mutual respect.

------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Submitted by Gush Shalom as a draft for public debate. If you generally agree with the spirit of this document please send comments and remarks. Gush Shalom info@gush-shalom.org P.O.Box 3322, Tel-Aviv 61033. Hebrew and English versions can be downloaded from http://www.gush-shalom.org. Please help us to finance this campaign by sending a check to Gush Shalom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 10:30 AM

Well now, there is the voice of reason. How many will have the patience to listen?

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 10:48 AM

Or the attention span to read it?

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 01:17 PM

for those with short attention spans, read 24 and 27. And think about the water issue. That is a tough one. We all have to think of solutions, probably involving some emmigration and resettlement of both populations. There is only so much land and populations increasing drastically by births, immigration and invitation for more, including many from the U.S. to immigrate. As far as I am concerned, those who are o.k. where they are should stay put and not make the problem any worse. The problem of course is that many are not o.k. where they are. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 08:36 PM

Thanks for posting that, Bagpuss. Brave people, and I'm glad they are there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 09:10 PM

I knew I shouldn't open this thread,,,*sigh*

Like most local conflicts all over the world, the only logical, pratical, reasonable solutions will satisfy neither side.

.there simply is not enough land and water to supply TWO fully independant countries, but the idea that both Jews and Palestinans shold BOTH live in ONE country with access to the churches and shrines seems to be tolerable to no one in power.

For now, Israel will retain the upper hand because they have more fire-power..but you know & I know the killing will continue, simply because these are 'people', and killing is easier than making sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: marty D
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 11:08 PM

Well I see my initial fears were well realised. "Happy Birthday Israel" indeed. If the thread had been titled "Let's argue about Israel" I'd have had no complaint. Ah to hell with it.

marty


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Bagpuss
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 11:05 AM

Maybe I should have started a separate thread to post this - as I didn't want to spark off more arguing about the original post. I just thought it was a good idea to use a thread already on the topic to give people interested a chance to read this document and air any views about it. I think a peace proposal which comes from a group of people from both sides who have an understanding of why negotiations are always so difficult and have learned to listen to eachother, is always going to be a better proposal than one from either side, or from countries seen to be allied to one or other side.

Anyone agree?

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 09:53 PM

Yes, I do.

There is enough land, water, and so on to support the present world population at a modest lifestyle...if they were willing to share it equally rather than compete and fight over it.

If not, well, prepare for more bloodshed and despair. It's getting to be a very small planet, and smaller all the time. Soon the whole place will seem as small...as Palestine.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST,Alex (not Mousethief)
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 01:24 PM

Since May 22, Israel has observed a one-sided cease fire and has not responded to Palestinian rock throwers, snipers and suicide bombers.

In that time, Israelis have not killed one Palestinian.

In that time, Palestinians have killed 26 Israelis.

21 of those killed were victims of a Hamas suicide bomber in Tel Aviv. Most of those he killed were teenagers, most of them recent immigrants from Russia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 09:34 PM

There've already been more than enough children killed in this on both sides, though mostly Palestinian. The only way it can ever stop is for one side to stop reprisals against the reprisals from the other side which were reprisals to earlier reprisals...

Maybe that might have happened now, and the cycle of mutual reprisals can be halted. Maybe.

Reprisals which have always been totally futile, except as a way of keeping the killing cycle spinning round.

Suicide bombers are just the most direct example of what has been going on - a mutual suicide pact involving both sides. Essentially both sides could have short circuited the process, so that instead of killing each other they just killed people on their own side. The effect would have been the same.

Moving forward can only come through people on both sides being ready to learn to understand how it looks from the other side, and the piece Bagpuss posted is a serious and impressive attempt to do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 09:48 PM

ah, McGrath...your logic just makes too much sense to appeal to people who WANT to hate...


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST,Alex (not Mousethief)
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 10:30 PM

ah, Bill D, obviously the Israeli leaders have been following McGrath's advice for the past three weeks.

It's too bad that the same cannot be said for the terrorists of Hamas and Islamic Jihad who have continued to kill Israelis.

It's too bad that people like you who are so quick to condemn Israel when Palestinians are killed have nothing to say when Isrealis are killed.

It's also too bad that people like McGrath who, for so long have kept insisting that it be Israel that breaks the cycle of violence, have nothing to say when Israel does just that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 06:39 AM

I thought I just did,welcoming it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 04:47 PM

Not wishing to be seen as anti or pro anything - but accepting I will be by some - isn't calling the Islamic Jihad and Hammas 'Terrorists' just adding fuel to the flames. Surely the Arab people of Palestine see these people as freedom fighters? Were the Israelis of the new state 'Terrorists' when they fought the British and allied forces in the 1940's? Are the IRA bombers freedom fighters? Was Che Geuvara a terrorist?

We are all just people at the end of the day. And victims. The young man who strapped a bomb to himself just as much as the innocent teenagers who died as a result. To feel that strongly about something must tell us that something is wrong somewhere, surely. What can we do about it though. Whatever it is I am sure condemning one side over another is not the answer.

And Agreeing with the original sentiment of the thread - happy birthday Israel. May future ones see you living in peace with yourself and your neighbors.

Hope I am making some sense.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 05:10 PM

So much nonsense about cease-fire and peace. A dispossessed people will always seek vengeance on their oppressors, and this will go on for generations. The only hope is for an enforced separation, either UN or other on site force. This, and most of what is above, is repetition of what was said in the first few items. None of it will change the mind-set of either side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 06:01 PM

How sad that the violence continues! Shame, shame on Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Feel better?

Alex


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Subject: I hail Dave the Gnome
From: GUEST,Tim M.
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 10:49 AM

Greetings from Terre Haute.

Dave the Gnome says:

"And victims. The young man who strapped a bomb to himself just as much as the innocent teenagers who died as a result."

Thanks Dave. On this last weekend I needed some logic for comfort.

If the suicide bomber of Islamic Jihad is a victim and not a terrorist, then so am I.

Dave the Gnome, I hail thee as my semantic guru.

Tim M. in Terre Haute


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST,Dear World
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 11:53 AM

Dear World,

I understand that you are upset over us, here in Israel. Indeed, it appears that you are quite upset, even angry. (Outraged?) Indeed, every few years you seem to became upset over us. Today, it is the "brutal repression of the Palestinians"; yesterday, it was Lebanon; before that it was the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War and the Sinai campaign.

It appears that Jews who triumph and who, therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily.

Of course, dear world, long before there was an Israel, we -- the Jewish people -- upset you. We upset a German people who elected a Hitler and we upset an Austrian people who cheered his entry into Vienna and we upset a whole slew of Slavic nations - Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians, Romanians.

And we go back a long, long way in the history of the world "upset."

We upset the Cossacks of Chmielnicki who massacred tens of thousands of us in 1648- 49; we upset the Crusaders who, on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us. We upset, for centuries, a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through Inquisitions, and we upset the archenemy of the Church, Martin Luther, who, in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit.

And it is because we became so upset over upsetting you, dear world, that we decided to leave you -- in a manner of speaking -- and establish a Jewish State. The reasoning was that living in close contact with you, as resident-strangers in the various countries that comprise you, we upset you, irritate you, disturb you. What better notion, then, than to leave you and thus love you -- and have you love us? And so we decided to come home -- to the same homeland from which we were driven out 1,900 years earlier by a Roman world that, apparently, we also upset.

Alas, dear world, it appears that you are hard to please. Having left you and your pogroms and Inquisitions and Crusades and Holocausts, having taken our leave of the general world to live alone in our own little state -- we continue to upset you. You are upset that we repress the poor Palestinians.

You are deeply angered over the fact that we do not give up the lands of 1967, which are clearly the obstacle to peace in the Middle East.

Moscow is upset and Washington is upset. The "radical" Arabs are upset and the gentle Egyptian moderates are upset.

Well, dear world, consider the reaction of a normal Jew from Israel.

In 1920 and 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody. Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered hundreds of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron - in 1929.

Dear world, why did the Arabs - the Palestinians - massacred 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967? And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots between 1936-39? Was it because of Arab upset over 1967? And when you, world, proposed a U.N. Partition Plan in 1947 that would have created a "Palestinian State" went to war and killed 6,000 Jews - was that an upset stomach caused by the aggression of 1967? And, by the way, dear world, why did we not hear your cry of upset, then?

The poor Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and stones are part of the same people who -- when they had all the territories they now demand be given them for their state -- attempted to drive the Jewish State in to the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate the same cry of "itbach-al-yahud" massacre the Jew! -- that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream -- destroy Israel. What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today -- but we should not "repress" them...

Dear world, you stood by the Holocaust and you stood by in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres. You stood by in 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction.

And since we know that the Arabs-Palestinians daily dream of that extinction, we will do everything possible to remain alive in our own land.

If that bothers you, dear world, well -- think of how many times in the past you bothered us. In any event, dear world, if you are bothered by us, here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 12:25 PM

a late reply to "alex..not mousethief"....you have been reading what you want to into posts...I condemned no one specifically. Some people on BOTH sides prefer violence, and it makes me sad. I have **NO** allegience to either side. Hate and revenge are always just ways of avoiding the harder road of searching for TRUE solutions.

But as I said earlier, the only possible true solutions would satisfy neither side.

Both sides can post clear explanations of why they are in the right,(or have been 'wronged'), but one Egyptian president and one Israeli leader have already been assassinated by their own people, partially for not taking a hard enough line. There is plenty of blood on EVERYONE'S hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 02:46 PM

So it's back on the cycle of reprisal and counter reprisal again - as I somehow thought was going to be the case.

Victim on victim violence. Which is I suppose what most violence in the world is when you really look at it in context.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST,Hamas
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 03:36 PM

On behalf of the Palestinian people, I take great pride in recognizing the friendship we treasure at Mudcat Cafe.

Thank you, Dave the Gnome, for recognizing that our martyrs are freedom fighters, not terrorists.

When we send our martyrs to kill Jewish children in Tel Aviv, they go with the knowledge that Jewish children grow up to be Israeli soldiers of oppression. Thus, our martyrs are killing Jews so that our children may live in a free Palestine.

Thank you, RichM, for recognizing that no Israeli is without blame. That certainly includes the children that our martyrs blow up.

Thank you, McGrath of Harlow, for demanding that the Israelis stop responding and allow us to kill with impunity. Thank you for keeping silent when the Israelis follow your advice for three weeks and for responding within hours when we finally goad them into shooting back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: marty D
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 03:58 PM

McGrath, Bill D, and most of the others... do you ever get the feeling that in discussions like this, or ones on Ireland, having brains is of no use whatsoever? No wonder so many die or live in fear. The fundamentalists on both sides will NEVER let it end.

marty


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 09:10 PM

These things do end, someday, somehow. It's not a matter of brains, it's a matter of people having the courage to try to stand in the other person's footsteps. That and exhaustion.

Reprisal and counter-reprisal and it lasts for ever. The best way forward, of course, would be if the Palestinians could turn away from the strategy of counter-atrocity, and adopt a strategy of non-violent resistance, with the same willingness to face death that they have shown in the intifada, but without the willingness to inflict it. Things as hard and strange have happened in the past. But anyone attempting that is likely to find themselves under fire from two directions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 09:36 PM

the 'best' way would be for both sides to say.."hey...lets quit fighting and arguing over who 'gets' what territory...lets just live the best we can and share the area, the government, the problems....NO more reprisals or bullets or rock throwing."

am I a wild dreamer? sure....[and yes, I realize that would mean no more forced Jewish settlements and open immigration policies...and no more limitations of Jewish visits to the Temple Mount...etc...therefore, it will never work...but it would be 'best']


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: Bagpuss
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 06:33 AM

I think a few of the posts following my very long cut and paste show that even outside of Israel and Palestine, a large number of people are entrenched in the historical narrative of one people or the other. And if anyone says anything which conflicts with their narrative, that makes them part of the enemy. No matter that these *enemies* have stated that they condemn violence on both sides and do not favour one side above the other. I wonder if it is possible for the *guests* who posted here to stop for a second, and actually read the article I posted and think whether any of it applies to them. I don't ask that you post anything about what you have read unless you want to. Just read and think. It's not a lot to ask.

Don't forget that things can change as long as we believe they can and put political pressure where we can to strive for peace. Nelson Mandela was once a terrorist. Now, though things are far from perfect, there is a real democracy in South Africa. Most people in Northern Ireland (at least the many I have spoken to) now believe the way forward is through the peace process and not yet more violence. Things can and do change and we must never give up hope.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST,Tara
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 01:13 PM

You know what I find most unique about this issue? Here in the US, we usually assign either side of any issue to "liberal" or "conservative". Yet, in this single case, *both* sides are considered liberal. Those who side with the Palestinians are siding with the poor, repressed underdogs, comparable to the Jews in Europe 60 years ago. Those who favor the Jews are siding with the poor folks who were repressed for centuries and finally deserve a shot at something for themselves.

I find violence on both sides absolutely disgusting. However, I also sympathize with the reasoning used by both sides. We can argue the reasons why each continues with their violence until we're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that both are equally violent, and for reasons that are equally compelling.

Celtic-End Singer, and others who have argued about the lack of ability of the Palestinians to retaliate: I do not doubt that the fundamentalists on that side would be at least as brutal as the fundamentalists controlling the Israeli actions if they had equal weaponry. Yeah, it sucks that they're not on equal footing with the other side in this fight... but realistically, looking at them all as just plain ol' human beings, that would only make the situation worse. It would mean more violence on each side. Seeing the Palestinian deaths in the news is heartbreaking, but is it really any more heartbreaking than if the death toll was more evenly distributed? If each side's objectives and reasonings were the same, but someone came along and gave the Palestinians a bunch of weapons and they took the upper hand, would you cheer?

There's another way to draw this line, though. Instead of Israeli/Palestinian, how about peacemongers/hatemongers? There are definately people who fit both definitions in each camp. The people who promote peace there are the only ones I side with, Israeli or Palestinian.

To the person who posted the Dylan song... The Jews knew perfectly well they were heading into hot territory when they chose to establish Israel. I understand their desire for their own country. Given the collective guilt over what had happened to them, quite honestly, I think they could have established themselves anywhere in the world. I wouldn't have argued with giving them all of Germany and Austria. They chose to go back to Jerusalem because of their amazingly-long-ago history there, despite the fact that they knew it wouldn't be pretty. So, they are not entirely unwitting victims here, not like they were in Germany.

To the person who argued the long history of Jewish oppression: Yes, Jews have been oppressed. So have every other group in the world, by someone, somewhere. Many people continue to be brutalized today. If we keep arguing about what is owed to us because of what other people did to other people long before we lived, we'll never come to peace with one another. We can't forget history. It's important for so many reasons. But, we can't keep using it as an excuse not to build ourselves good lives today.

I am a pacifist, but I am not a fool. I know that going to war against Germany in WWII was a good thing, even if it sucked. I think that helping out in the Balkans was a good thing, because Milosovich would have gladly become the next Hitler if he'd had the chance. But, I don't think that this situation compares to either of those. Here are two groups of people who have each done nasty things to each other in the past, who are continuing to do nasty things to one another. One has the upper hand at the moment, but is threatened by everyone else around them in addition to the other party, so they don't feel they can relax. If the other nasties in the region were to lend help to the underdog, they could easily gain the upper hand, and they wouldn't have be more right than the currently dominating group. And, in the end, most of them aren't even fighting for ideals or because of wrongs perpetrated by the other. They're fighting over a bit of dirt. That's the saddest part. I refuse to look at them as Jews and Muslims, or Israelis and Palestinians. I see them all as humans who are being stupid, and other humans are suffering for it.

Therefore, my opinion is that they're both a bunch of nuts who need to get their s**t together. There are peaceful people on both sides. The nuts need to start listening to them. And, both sides are just going to have to compromise if they want to fix this.

-Tara


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: GUEST,Alex (not Mousethief)
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 04:40 PM

This is from today's Globe & Mail newspaper:

MATTHEW KALMAN Special to The Globe and Mail Thursday, June 14, 2001

RAMALLAH, WEST BANK -- The militant Hamas organization has no intention of halting attacks against Israel, a leading Hamas official said yesterday. He insisted that Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat hasn't even asked the group to stop the nine-month uprising in the Israeli-occupied territories or its suicide attacks against Israeli citizens.

Sheik Hasan Yosef said bluntly that Hamas would not honour the U.S.-brokered truce to which Mr. Arafat had grudgingly agreed.

----

So, how is Israel supposed to make peace with the Palestinians?


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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday, Israel
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 04:52 PM

Hamas is not equivalent to "the Palestinians." They are an obnoxious and dangerous minority of Palestinians, granted. But they are not equivalent to "the Palestinians" and nobody is asking Israel to make peace with Hamas.

Alex


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 11 April 5:38 AM EDT

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