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The origin of Sea Chanteys

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radriano 18 May 01 - 10:42 AM
Naemanson 18 May 01 - 08:35 AM
Charley Noble 17 May 01 - 08:04 PM
radriano 17 May 01 - 11:41 AM
Metchosin 17 May 01 - 03:06 AM
SeanM 17 May 01 - 12:57 AM
Wotcha 16 May 01 - 11:18 PM
Mark Cohen 16 May 01 - 08:05 PM
Charley Noble 16 May 01 - 07:43 PM
Uncle_DaveO 16 May 01 - 07:08 PM
SeanM 16 May 01 - 06:41 PM
Charley Noble 16 May 01 - 08:48 AM
Naemanson 16 May 01 - 07:54 AM
sophocleese 16 May 01 - 07:48 AM
Naemanson 16 May 01 - 06:11 AM
Chanteyranger 16 May 01 - 02:43 AM
SeanM 16 May 01 - 01:03 AM
Rebel135 15 May 01 - 11:50 PM
Mark Cohen 15 May 01 - 11:27 PM
Metchosin 15 May 01 - 11:16 PM
GUEST,petr 15 May 01 - 11:00 PM
Charley Noble 15 May 01 - 10:42 PM
GUEST,Pete M at work 15 May 01 - 09:49 PM
SeanM 15 May 01 - 06:00 PM
GUEST,Melani 15 May 01 - 02:21 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 15 May 01 - 01:43 PM
CRANKY YANKEE 15 May 01 - 01:13 PM
IanC 15 May 01 - 12:41 PM
Naemanson 15 May 01 - 12:10 PM
CRANKY YANKEE 15 May 01 - 12:10 PM
IanC 15 May 01 - 12:05 PM
Ma Fazoo 15 May 01 - 11:32 AM
Metchosin 15 May 01 - 11:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 May 01 - 11:02 AM
IanC 15 May 01 - 09:08 AM
Charley Noble 15 May 01 - 08:53 AM
IanC 15 May 01 - 06:45 AM
Naemanson 15 May 01 - 06:26 AM
IanC 15 May 01 - 06:19 AM
KingBrilliant 15 May 01 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 15 May 01 - 04:31 AM
Metchosin 15 May 01 - 03:38 AM
SeanM 15 May 01 - 03:33 AM
Metchosin 15 May 01 - 02:54 AM
GUEST,John 15 May 01 - 01:31 AM
Margo 15 May 01 - 12:06 AM
SeanM 14 May 01 - 09:44 PM
toadfrog 14 May 01 - 08:01 PM
GUEST,Pete M at work 14 May 01 - 07:39 PM
GUEST,Barry Finn, still out & about 14 May 01 - 06:21 PM
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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: radriano
Date: 18 May 01 - 10:42 AM

Actually, Charlie, mining songs would be more appropriate as I work for the California Division of Mines and Geology, the state geological survey.

One of our products is a cd of photos of the old gold mines and I've been trying for some time (unsuccessfully so far) to convince my bosses that what the cd needs is a sound track of gold mining songs.

Richard


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Naemanson
Date: 18 May 01 - 08:35 AM

Wotcha, are you talking of marching songs? I'm not sure that qualifies. From what I have seen of the US Navy there is little in the way of work songs.

Sean, your description of today's military ("This is prime Garth Brooks/Snoop Dog territory, folks. Be afraid..." doesn't completely jibe with my experience. Sure they are into modern music and experiences and they are generally pretty far right of center but they are not ignorant knuckle dragging buffoons either. That is more the Navy of my day.

And some of them are even into folk music!!

But they would never let themselves be caught dead actually singing it. That would be acting too far outside the actions of the common herd. It would be thinking too far outside the box. Because, whatever else they are, they definitely have a strong herd instinct.

I think your informant was giving you some bum information. The Navy is an all volunteer force with a high degree of professionalism. The kids joining up today are no worse than those working to become the leaders of our nation.

I have a friend who works as a part time instructor at UMASS Lowell. He was telling my just this morning about the poor quality of some of the papers he has to grade. If you want to fear anything you should be fearing them too.

(The above was written without animosity.)


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 May 01 - 08:04 PM

Richard, you wouldn't have to worry about customers if you'd just sing a shanty and persuade them with a belaying pin to do so useful hauling. You do have some ropes hanging around your office, don't you?


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: radriano
Date: 17 May 01 - 11:41 AM

For many people, in today's modern culture, music is thought of as something that is purchased and listened to while working rather than something that is an integral part of the work itself. In fact, most sea shanties sung today are not sung while working since the days of real shanty singing are long gone.

I was leading somewhere with this thought but I was interrupted by a customer coming into the office and now I've lost my train of thought.


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 May 01 - 03:06 AM

Cranky Yankee, regarding your initial post, I'm not sure if I misunderstood you, but I have never heard the shanty South Australia performed to the tune of the Bananna Boat Song (Day O). But then again I have only heard it performed by Australians.


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: SeanM
Date: 17 May 01 - 12:57 AM

Unfortunatley, Brian, in my experience with the Navy, we were profoundly discouraged from singing at ANY point in service.

During Boot Camp, our 'leader' of our division struck up a tune while we were marching. He got (I believe) about three words into it before our Company Commander (the Navy equivalent of DI) stopped the march, broke us all down and busted us with pushups for about 45 minutes in the middle of the road. Held up traffic, even. All the while, he kept yelling "So you think you're a bunch of musicians, do you? Let's see your musical asses sing to this!" and other such endearments.

Little episodes like this discouraged the use of work songs. The only 'singing' we were allowed to do was the hideous Sunday Services, where we were all expected to raise our voices high to the travesty of "Proud to be an American". Talk about mental scarring...

At sea, as mentioned above, the general class of people enlisting these days isn't the kind that normally take to folk of any kind. An officer friend of mine once put it kindly with "The enlisted Navy isn't a life for a man who can survive on his own any more. I don't know what you're doing here, because most of the low rate enlisted can barely read, let alone hold a conversation." This is prime Garth Brooks/Snoop Dog territory, folks. Be afraid...

M


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Wotcha
Date: 16 May 01 - 11:18 PM

The Armed Forces (even Navy types who can find a place to run) may not call them shanties but they use work songs known as "Jody Calls" which originate from the Duckworth Chant of the 1930s according to our DT scholars. See earlier thread on that subject. The songs till function to take the mind off the monotony and pain of the road march or morning PT session. As a group, the U.S. military is probably the largest organization that uses work songs on a daily basis around the world. It preserves a rare folk tradition without even knowing it (it tarts it up with the likes of the 82 Airborne chorus though). It is not unusual to hear references to Bo Diddley and other greats and most kids have not a clue who they were ...
Cheers,
Brian


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 16 May 01 - 08:05 PM

soph, a number of years ago at the San Francisco Folk Music Club's New Year's Camp Harmony I was working in the kitchen (ably presided over by Debby McClatchy), and led shanties to help with the dishwashing. It's not that we all were heaving on a huge pot together, but it just helped lift our spirits and helped the time pass more quickly.

One of my favorite records, a National Geographic collection called "Music of Scotland", probably from the 60s, has a "waulking" song, sung by women who were banging with big pieces of wood on bolts of tweed cloth for what I presume is a good reason. The song is definitely call and response, with the head waulker singing a verse and the rest sliding in with the chorus in an interesting way. You can clearly hear the thumping of all those wooden thingamajigs on the table. I think that's what was being referred to as "tweeding songs" above.

I think CY's point is well taken, that much of the history of folklore, and of shanties in particular, has downplayed or ignored the African influence. Nevertheless, it's clear, and not at all surprising, that many cultures created, shared, and spread this kind of work song.

What a great discussion! People who kvetch about how the BS threads are "ruining" the Mudcat should be gently reminded about gems like this.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 May 01 - 07:43 PM

Another good nautical read from a young Canadian woman's point of view has to be a new book by Annette Brock Davis (Jackie) MY YEAR BEFORE THE MAST, another in a series of books describing the experience in the tall ship grain races of the 1930's. Jackie was overheard singing shanties (see, on-thread) to herself on watch and almost died of embarrassment. As one of the first female apprentices on the grain ships, she was lucky that she survived at all. She was definately not there as a passenger, and won a very grudging respect for the skills she learned and practiced, and was gratified to be invited back by the owners to sail next trip as an able-bodied sailor.


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 May 01 - 07:08 PM

There's further confusion about this word in the lumbering world. The "shantyman" is not a singer but a lumberjack; he lives in a shanty.

But there was a lot of overlap among the men who made their living as sailors, lumberjacks, and cowboys: Definitely the same class of otherwise unskilled, often rootless, generally penniless bachelor males, who had to make their living by the sweat of their brow and the strength of their bodies. Not only the same class, but in many cases the same drifters here and there. The interpenetration of these songs is nothing to be surprised at.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: SeanM
Date: 16 May 01 - 06:41 PM

Glad to hear that SOME sea songs make it in to seafarer's activites still. Sure as heck didn't in the regular navy that I went through unfortunatley.

The 'transition' from sea to land in the shanties is always fun to look at. Quite a bit of Doerflinger's work seems to center on that point. It's a logical progression in a few ways.

Recently I read a book ("Mad Sea"), a semi-autobiography about a young Nordic lad who repeatedly attempted to get to sea (eventually stowing away so they'd HAVE to take him along) and then spent the remainder of the book trying to make it on land. He followed the same path that he notes MANY seamen did, hitting the west coast and heading north into the lumber camps, thus adding to the lumbering shanty tradition that was growing.

Fascinating stuff...

M


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 May 01 - 08:48 AM

A clear example of how work songs shifted from land to sea has to be "Old Moke" (in the DT), with verses a strange mixture of sea terms and references to railroads, and the chorus strictly railroad and an entirely different tune and rhythm ("Old Virginia Lowlands" if I'm not mistaken). The Boarding Party did a nice rendition of this one, with their usual excellent notes. This shanty was caught obviously in transition.

OLD MOKE PICKIN' ON THE BANJO

He-bang, she-bang, daddy shot a bear
Shot it in the stern, me boys, and never turned a hair
We're all from the railroad, too-rer-loo
Oh, the old moke pickin' on the banjo.

cho: Hooraw! What the hell's the row?
We're all from the railroad, too-rer-loo
We're all from the railroad, too-rer-loo
Oh, the old moke pickin' on the banjo!

The same nomadic pattern is true of many lumberjack songs, which also moved back and forth from sea to land, such as "Jump Her, Juber-Ju" where we find one song describing the demise and embarrassment of a boatman who failed to pilot his skiff successfully during a log run on the rivers, the same chorus used for a net hauling song from the British Isles, and used once again for another song about the most sluggish boat (The Bigalow) on the Great Lakes as it raced (or more correctly "chased") the fleet from Chicago to Cleveland. Just think of how they could have mixed things up if they'd had a chatroom...


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Naemanson
Date: 16 May 01 - 07:54 AM

You can use a shanty to ANY repetitive labor. Just remember to depend on your body to set the tempo rather than use the tempo at which you are used hearing the song.

I have used shanties for anything from shoveling snow to mopping the kitchen. I once tried to use one to pull a boat ashore but the owner stopped me because I had latched on to the mooring line instead. I don't think I could have pulled that engine block out of the mud but the owner thought I might.


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: sophocleese
Date: 16 May 01 - 07:48 AM

Two thoughts that crossmy mind reading this fascinating thread. There are very few modern work songs as sung by the workers. People still like to have music to listen to and sometimes work to but they more often put on the radio, tape or CD. Shanties have faded away to dentist chair pap.

The other thoughtis a question for Cranky Yankee mainly, but others who have ideas please feel free to post them. I like the idea that by experiencing rowing a boat or working on a ship you can really apply the shanty to the work and see how they connected. Purely for the purposes of rhythm and pacing are there any dryland activities that you can think of that might help a singer learn the right tempo for a song? As a light example, if I can't row, can I rake leaves?


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Naemanson
Date: 16 May 01 - 06:11 AM

Sean, I can reassure you that in one corner of the Modern US Navy there is a little (a very little) shanty singing going on. I have been singing Leave Her, Johnny, (the nice verses) for Navy retirement ceremonies lately.

People seem to be impressed and touched by the song. They don't seem to understand that the sentiment in the song is an urgency to get the hell off the ship but that may be the result of my choice of verses.


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 16 May 01 - 02:43 AM

A point chantey collectors also make is that black and western European influences criss-crossed over several decades, so that a song that originated in some form by black laborers was picked up by, say, Irish laborers, taken to sea, adapted, and then picked up again by black seafarers and changed again. The process also may have started with songs originated by Irish seafarers/shore laborers, and picked up by blacks, be they African Americans or Caribbean sailors, etc. In other words, the folk process was at work in the "shanty mart" of Mobile that Hugill wrote about. "Hieland Laddie" is a good example. Scottish Highland pipers know it as a very old traditional march, chantey singers know it as a song adapted from the march with a slightly different melody, that dates back to the Dundee whalers, but was picked up, according to Hugill, in the great shanty mart of Mobile and mutated into several North American versions.

Though my reading of the collections and history doesn't point to the call/response form of those songs being totally of African origin, it's clear that the 19th Century form these songs took owes much, maybe more than we realize, to black influences. To add to Ma Fazoo's good point about how history has been written, there certainly has been a bias on the part of historians to pay more attention to cultures that have accumulated a written history, and less on cultures that have relied on transmitting their histories orally, down through generations. The vibrant oral culture of 19th Century African Americans was, for the most part, ignored by professional historians until recent times. Whether knowledge of the history of blacks and work songs aboard ships will be increased due to a wider consciousness on the part of today and tomorrow's historians, or whether those answrs are lost forever, who knows. Historians and folklorists are detectives, and hopefully we'll know more about Jody's theory at some point than we do now.

-chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: SeanM
Date: 16 May 01 - 01:03 AM

Wes,

You're correct in your statements from Brand. If you REALLY want to get into some good stuff, look up Stan Hugill.

As to the modern use?

I can attest that in today's modern US Navy, shanty singing is not only dead, but generally reviled. Along with the general decline of the average enlistee down towards the common denominator has come the bizarre hatred for folk music.

Even in otherwise traditional (and still observed) activities such as the Shellback Ceremony, no music is used.

This MAY be different in smaller ships, but amongst myself and my few friends with service experience, shantying in ANY form pretty much died out after the rash of 'destroyer shanties' in WWII.

M


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Rebel135
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:50 PM

Im not an expert on music by any means but I have more than a knowledge of history.

Most songs are cultural and when the lights went you there were few things to do other than dance, sing or find a corner with a loved one.

(Studies were done about the effects of rural electrication and the children per capita were haved when people could see each other.

Back the the current question. I have in my posession two records that I would suggest you would hard put to find any where, Oscar Brand? Sea Chanties Vol 1 and 2.

Oscar Brand,if I remember his name correctly, wrote that sea chanties derived from different needs. Some sea shanties told a story.

Like Paul Jones...

That starts out. A Yankee Ship came down the river, blow boys blow. It tells the story of John Paul Jones.

As opposed to some that were considered "short drag songs" which were sung while working and helped establish teamwork.

Pulling up an anchor is hard work on a capsain and so the men would sing and pull in time with the tempo.

I dont know a lot about sea chanties but they served a purpose. I suspect that every seafaring culture there ever was had sea chanties but they were useful.

Wes Prichard


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:27 PM

Even though I know as absolute fact that the correct spelling is shanty, I've always gone with the story that it came from the French, "chanter", to sing.

Ian, don't tell 'Spaw what "bucke verteth" means, OK?

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:16 PM

Don't think this was mentioned on this thread before but the word Shanty is derived from the Irish words "sean" and "tigh" meaning "old house".


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:00 PM

as far as work songs go , I believe the earliest song that is known is the shadoof song of the Nile, Shadoof being the basket mechanism used for irrigation. its maybe 3000 bc.

there is an oddball theory, but one that appeals to me, that there are ancient recordings of in existence if only we could play them back, namely in pottery that was thrown on a wheel which in a similar fashion to the gramophone recorded some sounds as it was being made. It has been proposed that the recordings" if any may be read back with a laser device. cheers petr.


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 May 01 - 10:42 PM

Most of the shanty singers/scholars state that shanties died out in the 1600's and 1700's because the ships were not in a hurry and their crews were large, and that it wasn't till the 1820' and 1830's that shanties began to be revived as shipowners began to try to keep their ships on a schedule and complete aggressively with other shipping lines, designed faster ships, and cut down crew size to save money; this is the shanty theory in response to the pressures of the new industrial market system. I still find it hard to believe that such a useful training tool as shanties weren't used in the 1700's, and that it seems more likely to me that no one thought they were interesting enough to write down.


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 15 May 01 - 09:49 PM

I know it was probably intended as a wind up Jody, but I'll bite. I'm with IanC about spelling, the etemology of a word can be very important in this kind of discussion. Also, if we are going to 'tackle' this problem I would have thought that the 'correct' pronunciation of words is no more, or less, inconsequential than their spelling.

Meanwhile, back to the plot. I would have to agree with Naemanson about the demise of the shanty as a true work song in 'Western' and Western influenced cultures. Certainly there are instances where these are used successfully in their 'traditional' setting by those of us with a common interest in shanties and ships, but in reality this is no more than an exhibit in a living museum. The true test is whether the form is still used to pace and assist repetitive work by those engaged in it on a day to day basis. My experience is as Naemanson says, is that it is not. I have come across several instances of the form in the Pacific islands in a traditional social setting, but not for working. That is admittedly a small sample on which to base a hypothesis and I may be being unduely pessimistic. What experience have others had?

Pete M


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: SeanM
Date: 15 May 01 - 06:00 PM

To get it back to 'call and response'... I'm going out on a limb here, but I seem to recall from my old college theatre classes that traditional Greek plays had the Chorus, with the Choral Leader. While not singing, they were working in a call and response medium, with the leader intoning his lines, and the chorus responding en masse. One instructor I had theorized that this was the start of the traditional chorus in music, and went further (without any backing but theorizing) that this development came out of the first agrarian societies as a way of passing the time.

So there. Shanties might just go back to when the first proto-human stopped in mid-chase and said 'blow this for a lark. I'm gonna plant beans and stop chasing those bloody great beasts with horns and all. Who's with me?'

That could also be why it's so hard to pin down a specific reference from where shanties started - if work songs DID originate before the dawn of history, who's to say WHERE they came from? If you accept point *a*, then point *b* which follows would be that work songs are universal, and that any attempt to track down their genesis will get muddled over the intervening thousands of years...

M


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 15 May 01 - 02:21 PM

I'm told "Twist and Shout" works well as a chantey, and I've also heard "The Itsy Bitsy Spider" used.

There are still people writing new chanties. I have just heard a tape by David LoVine (thanks, chanteyranger!) that consists entirely of songs and chanties that he wrote about the Lady Washington. The chanties sound traditional but are not, the words pertain to the ship and her crew, and they sound perfectly useful as work songs. Great tape, by the way.

I think traditional chanties sound the way they do because they tended to reflect the popular music of the time. Cranky Yankee's story about the teenagers is the modern-day version of the same thing.

Not to mention that traditional chanties get new verses all the time.


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 01 - 01:43 PM

There she was just a swinging to the beat
Singing doo wadda diddy diddy dum diddy doo
Sitting on the capstan and stamping her feet
Singing doo wadda diddy diddy dum diddy doo
She looked good she looked fine and we nearly broke the line
Yeah Shanties are not dead mates just used differently. Yours, Aye. Dave (a 21st century shantyman) btw if anyone cares to dispute the spelling step up and i'll explain why i'm right and you are wrong *Big F"ing Grin*


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 15 May 01 - 01:13 PM

Naemanson:

Thanks, Your posts are clear, well thought out and well informed. Let me assure you though that the "Genuine Sea Chantey" is far from extinct, at least in my little corner. I've related this in another thread, somewhere, but here it goes again.

HMS Rose's first winter was in the old, now unused, ferry terminal in Jamestown Rhode Island. None of the sailing crewmembers were still around, except for Donna, Myself and John Millar (Rose's owner ) John woke me up at 0600 one morning and told me that the ship had to be moved from the slip it was in to the one next to it. A former "Staten Island Ferry boat" was, at that moment steaming up to Jamestown to be converted into a floating MOTEL and restaurant, and it needed the machinery in the slip that was then occupied by "Rosie" The ferry was due to arrive around 1700. He had arranged for "Black Pearl's" crew to assist me, but they had to cancel at the last minute to pick up a new diesel in Providence.
Rose had no auxilliary engines at the time, so, it had to be warped from one ferry slip to another. Furthermor, he had to pick up his father at the T.F.Greene international airport in Warwick. That left me and the capstan. Along about 1500, it was becoming evident that there was no one to help me and I could see the smoke from the ferry's stack coming up Narragansett Bay.,BR. ,BR.i went ashore to the "drug store - soda fountain" where the high school kids had just started assembling. I chose the four biggest boys and told them to follow me. Jumping at the chance to go aboard "Rosie" to help out, they followed me. Once aboard, I explained that we were going to attach a long nylon rope, called a "Warp Line", to the next ferry slip, and, the wind and tide being just right, take in all the present mooring lines. This would then allow the ship to drift out of it's present location into the channel. Then we would use the capstan to pull in to where we wnted to be. They all indicated that they understood But, I neglected to tell them I was going to sing, so we started heaving and I started singing"Heave away Johnny". They began jumping up into the air and yelling "YAAA..HOOO....". Of course when all the slack was out of the warp line, we stopped moving.
I gathered them around me in a column of bunches, and explained that I was singing to keep us all in step, and that unless we were in step, we would sarve to death in he middle of Naragansett bay as there weren't enough of us to do the job without a coordinated effort. They understood this philisophically, but still jumped up and yelled YAA.......HOOOO....

So I started singing , "Come on Over Baby, whole lot o' shakin' goin' on"
Come on over baby, baby you can't go wrong.
I aint fakin' Whole lot o' shakin' goin' on"
Then they chimed in with "Shake Baby Shake, shake baby shake" etc. When the singing got them into step, the ship began to move again and they felt the difference. You could almost see a lightbulb go on over their collective heads.

"Rosie moved into place and "Whole Lot of Shakin' Goin' On'" became a genuine capstan chantey.

ANY DISSENTION?


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: IanC
Date: 15 May 01 - 12:41 PM

Well, here's some more thoughts about the timing of the growth of the British merchant fleet. I don't think you can really blame it on the shanties, though.

British sea power was growing during the C16th but started to become particularly important at the end of the C16th after the defeat and destruction of the Spanish Armada. There was a large increase in traffic to the Americas at the end of the C18th. This was because of the Napoleonic war when, for the first time, the French began to compete seriously with Britain for trade with "The Americas" (by then Britain had a virtual monopoly in Europe due - I think - to Spain's involvement in the War of the Austrian Succession). By then, also, the British were heavily involved in the trading of slaves from the West African coast to "The Americas".

It would appear to be the case that, by the end of the Elizabethan era, (about 1600) traditional shanties, such as "A-Rovin", were already in common use - probably in The Netherlands, Flanders and France also.

Cheers!
Ian

PS ... re: the spelling ... it obviously has an important influence on how you understand the etymology of the word and hence what light can be put on the origin of the songs. Whall, in the introduction to his 6th edition (1927) is with Jody (historically rather than etymologically) to some extent in that in that he claims the earliest collections of Shanties were called "Songs from the Shanties" and later "Shanty songs" before being called simply "Shanties".


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 May 01 - 12:10 PM

"...most work songs mainly died out when repetitive physical work was no longer required."

In an interesting drift, Ian, there is still a lot of repetitive physical work being done, even in our great First World societies but work songs are NOT used.

I believe this is due to a range of reasons. To start with today's First World laborers haven't got either the heart or the lungs to sing. When faced with a dull repetitive job they either attack it full throttle and get it done or they feel so oppressed by the prospect of the job that they cannot sing. And there is the peer pressure of the other workers on the site. And the cigarrettes have stolen enough lung capacity that they need it all for the work. Etc.

They have forgotten the value of the work song. There is also a perception that you have to be able to sing like a paid performer. This is largely due to the electronic media (I firmly believe) and will not change. The work song, with a few exceptions, has been relegated to the role of entertainment.


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 15 May 01 - 12:10 PM

Thank you THANK YOU. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR when I started this thread.

Except for the few crackpots who want to argue about completely inconsequential (so I can't spell, so what) things, I think there's enough good, solid argument here for me to start forming my own conclusions.

Oh yes, somewhere in the "Forum" the comment was made that English sailors did not pronounce T A C K L E, as Tay-kul. All I can say to that is I've shipped with many a lime juice sailor (no ethnic slur here) and they all pronounce the word, "Tay-kul".

Once again, thank you and keep the opposing viewpoints coming.

Jody Gibson


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: IanC
Date: 15 May 01 - 12:05 PM

MF

Get me not wrong. I'm loving this. Effete's my word by way of a wind-up. Thought it was good myself.

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Ma Fazoo
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:32 AM

Ian c, this is meant as a joke, too, so don't take offense either, right? I don't much care wheter it's spelled chantey, shantey, chanty, shanty, chantez, xianti or tondelayo, as long as it works,and it certainly does in my experience. Sailing a 500 ton squarerigger through the Bay of Fundy two days after a hurricane with a green crew of 20 women and men would have been physically impossible without the use of chanties. I thinke we'd be out there yet, if not for them.
History, at least for the last couple of centuries has been largely written by white European of white North American males,
History is about 40% speculation and 60% self-promotion, in my humble but crazed opinion. Question authority, it's good for your noodle.
"Effete" gave me the best laugh I've had in years. If Louie Killen is somehow out of cyril Tawney by way of Roy Acuff, Cranky (Jody to his friends and enemies alike) is out of Popeye by way of Leonardo da Vinci, with Daffy Duck as Godfather.
Overstating his case a little? Remember all thhose Europeen historians and let him chime in a little bit for a less popular notion.
I'm so glad this thread has generated such intelligent and fascinating information. I love this Mudcat place!


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:12 AM

Well, so far we have the earliest documented records for work done by sailors to call and response aboard British ships, as noted by Whall, from The Complaynt of Scotland in 1450.

Then from the Blood Red Roses thread, Hugill is quoted as saying that the earliest he could find documented were Venetian, heard and noted by a Dominican friar, Felix Fabri of Ulm, Germany, in 1493.


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:02 AM

Adding my two-pen'urth. I think I read that on Cooks voyages to the south seas it was recored that the islanders used songs to row to. They went into the melting pot as well and we got such good 'uns as 'John Kanaka'. BTW in deference to my Polish origins I think I will use the spelling Zanties ...

I am in full agreement with the African bit as well. Not just black African either. I think the North African / Arabic influence must be taken into account as the Moors and other races of the area were also great sea-farers.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: IanC
Date: 15 May 01 - 09:08 AM

Great!

It's, of course, not the case that there are no call/response songs in any other form of English Language folk music. As with the singing of shanties aboard ship, most work songs mainly died out when repetitive physical work was no longer required. In the farther flung parts of Britain, however, some survived into the 20th Century, and there exist video recordings of (e.g.) people on Harris singing traditional work songs, including call/response forms. Most of these forms were not really appealing to early folk song collectors, even if they saw them, as they were generally more interested in what they considered to be the earliest "pure" ballad forms. This bias in collection can be well illustrated by the fact that (e.g.) choruses/refrains were considered to be a very late addition despite the fact that the first recorded song with music was a chorus song (Sumer is Icumen In, rather badly set out in DT)

Here it is, laid out as it appears in many anthologies (sometimes the 4 half-lines of the "verse" are written separately)

Sumer is icumen in, lhude sing cucu.
Groweth sed and bloweth med, and springth the wode nu.
Sing cucu, nu, sing cuccu, Ne swike thu, niver nu

Awe bleateth after lomb, Lhouth after calve cu;
Bullock sterteth, bucke verteth, Murie sing cucu.
Sing cucu, nu, sing cuccu, Ne swike thu, niver nu

The form of this (ABC DEC) is, in fact, more similar to the (ABCD EBFD) form of many working shanteys than any of the various forms found in Courlander's "Negro Folk Music, USA", 1963 though I am making no claim that it was a work song(!)

Play songs, especially those associated with work, frequently preserve older work songs and there are many of these, some still being used in childrens' playgrounds round my way, which use a call-response format. I can provide more details, given a little time, if this cannot be taken as established.

Perhaps, along with what has already been said about the naturalness of work rhythms, there is no real necessity to take the origin of Sea Shanties out of context with other work songs. If this is so, it seems most likely to me that the form naturally evolved in situations where it was found to be beneficial. However, having said this, I think I'd be inclined to agree that something apparently took the shanty form to its peak in the early C19th, and this may well be as Cranky has said.

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 May 01 - 08:53 AM

I'm loading my guns with A.L. Lloyd's Folk Song in England which has a great discussion on the origin and development of the "shanties." Then when I'm much wiser, I'll blow everyone away with my insights. ;-)

Haul the sheet back with one hand,
Set yer drink down, if ye can,
And we never sail outta sight of land ?
Tanqueray-martini-o!


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: IanC
Date: 15 May 01 - 06:45 AM

Yes, but what I'm interested in is the development of the particular form - i.e. Call and Response work songs as used on board sailing ships.

We can look at the development of this form here, with some very informed people, so perhaps we may be able to address the question of how and when they developed into what they are.

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 May 01 - 06:26 AM

Anyone who has spent any time at all engaged in strenuous repetitive manual labor knows that it is easier if you get into a steady rhythm. This is the case whether you are alone shoveling sand (or snow) or working with a team. And there is no better way to keep in that rhythm than with music in a slow rhytmic beat.

Therefore it is not a question of who originated the shanties. Anyone who has to work, in the old days before machinery, would have developed a singing work chant. This stands to reason on land or on the water.


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: IanC
Date: 15 May 01 - 06:19 AM

Cranky

I'll admit I wasn't being serious last night, and I appear to have accidentally steered this thread more into the direction of spelling rather than history.

I'd like to get back to a slightly more rigorous examination of the history of Sea Shanties. To my mind, this doesn't involve people fighting with "facts" but rather using a working hypothesis and trying to find counter examples which take the argument further. If we can take your facts as working hypotheses from this point of view, we may make some progress. Is this OK?

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 15 May 01 - 05:21 AM

Metchosin said above "Any repetitive backbreaking work elicits this form of music from the human soul"
I totally agree with that. Any rhythmic activity that doesn't demand too much concious thought will allow you to sing, and will encourage the mind to freewheel a bit & often result in a new song of the not too deep & meaningful variety.
The fact that these songs then reinforce the rhythm of the work is damn handy. So I'd go for the idea that work songs & chants will have arisen all over the place and at all times.
That sea shanties in particular were heavily influenced by the African call & response charting sounds very feasible indeed. Stan Hugill mentions that the African sailors were the best 'yippers' & that the Europeans could not quite achieve the same wild yells (which were integral parts of the shanties). Still - its always hard to find out the absolute truths of history (or even the present), su b*ggered if I know....

Kris


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 15 May 01 - 04:31 AM

I posted this to an earlier thread on shanties which may not do anything other than muddy the waters, but is an interesting theory on the origin of the NAME:
"Can't help with this ,but the thread reminds me that Cliff Hall of the Spinners always claimed shanties were West Indian in origin. His explanation (possibly a wind-up to annoy the shanty purists) was that the WI fishermen had temporary shelters (shanties, as in shanty town) on the beach where they gutted their fish (and no doubt smoked some wacky woodbines) which were on rollers made of tree trunks. When a storm was threatened they hauled them up into the trees for safety from tidal waves etc., singing the type of song we associate with capstan work on ships.[and, of course, the Spinners used to sing "Sally Racket" among other shanties so this thread hasn't crept too far!] "
Hugh Jones, the Spinners chantey expert and now a solo singer, is an occasional visitor to the Mudcat so might have a view on this. Cliff, I gather, is travelling the world in his retirement.
RtS


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 May 01 - 03:38 AM

ribitt


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: SeanM
Date: 15 May 01 - 03:33 AM

Well put, Metchosin/toadfrog

As to the future? Well, I can't speak for the FAR future, but I unfortunatley think shanties have had their 'golden age'. They'll still be around whenever the work calls for it, but barring some new developments in technology, I don't think we'll be seeing as much of a need of them as the sail trading fleets had.

However, there IS a fairly brisk trade in commercial sales of shanties as, well, entertainment. I know a couple bands who base a large part of their sets off of them - heck, a group I perform with does as well. Hopefully, enough people will stay interested to keep the old ones alive, and enough others will generate the occasional new one to keep the form alive.

M


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 May 01 - 02:54 AM

I am toadfrog.

That Shanty noted is from a mediaeval work called The Complaynt of Scotland which was written about 1450. W. B. Whall, who IanC mentioned above, cites the work in his book Ships, Sea-Songs and Shanties. Also from the Complaynt of Scotland are the following lines, which Whall also notes in his introduction:

"And now ane marynal cryit
And all the laif follouit in that same tune"

Or in plain English
"one mariner sings out and the rest follow in the same tune" the following as they haul anchor:

"Caupon caupona, caupon caupona
Caupon hola, caupon hola
Caupon holt, caupon holt
Sarrabosa, sarrabossa

Than says the narrative, they maid fast the shank of the ankyr."

Whall also notes in his collection, among others from the Complaynt of Scotland, the following Shanty of 550 years ago:

"Yellow hair, hips bare
To him all. Vidde fulles all.
Great and small, one and all,
Heisa, heisa."

Many cultures have used call and response in work songs; it is not the prerogative of just one people. One only has to listen to some of the work songs of the Ruthenians of the Carpathian Mountains and the Ukraine, which the women sang as they laboured in fields, to gain further appreciation of the form. Any repetitive backbreaking work elicits this form of music from the human soul.

A modern case in point was the song a friend made up which mimicked the sound of the machinery and kept him awake and in sync while working on the green chain on the night shift in a plywood mill. Only in this situation the machine called and he answered.

Records indicate that the ancient Greeks understood the advantages of, and practiced, uniform work methods. Their soldiers were instructed as to how their weapons and equipment should be laid out in case of a surprise attack. They also employed work songs to develop a rhythm, in order to achieve a smooth less fatiguing tempo, to improve productivity. It is not too much of a stretch to believe that some ancient bright spark took the inspiration to get his Greek Armies to work in unison from work songs that originated in the field or were sung on ancient Greek Pentekontors and Triremes by the oarsmen or vice versa.

The earliest recorded work songs, are from the Shih Ching or Book of Songs, an anthology of 305 lyrics of various types, in the section called Feng, literally translated as "wind" and sometimes interpreted as "folkways or folksongs", compiled ca. 600 B. C.and which may represent work, dating from the Shang dynasty as early as ca. 1700 B. C. And it would follow, that a thousand years later, workmen, as they laboured on the Great Wall of China were singing these same songs as they toiled.

And who knows what Jesus and his mates sang on the Sea of Galilee, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of it was naughty, so they couldn't put those parts in the Book.


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Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: GUEST,John
Date: 15 May 01 - 01:31 AM

It seems to me that we should pluralise the topic, and talk (if we must) about the origins of shanties. There seem to be at least several, which in more recent times have become intermixed. There is no reason why shanties could not have had several origins - many other human inventions have! (How many races independently developed the bow and arrow, or the wheel?) It would not be surprising that if you were able to travel back in time to the construction of the pyramids you would not hear something clearly recognisable as a shanty. Many things simply don't get recorded by contemporary commentators because they are seen as a commonplace.

Even more important - what is the future of shanties?


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Subject: RE: BS: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Margo
Date: 15 May 01 - 12:06 AM

There is a very interesting article on this page about music and working. Not too far into the article he mentions the Volga boat song. I haven't had time to read up on it, but I wonder how old it is? Couldn't find lyrics either. That's ok, I don't know Russian... :o) Margo


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Subject: RE: BS: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: SeanM
Date: 14 May 01 - 09:44 PM

I've also got to side with the 'melting pot' theory...

Before there was extensive evidence of African sailors, there was evidence of the stamp 'n' go callouts and such (at least according to the historic references I've read). I'm not going to knock the contributions of the MANY African nations to the shanty, but I'd also say that a large majority of the traceable influence comes from the 'golden age', long after the art of shanty singing was already established.

One MAJOR way that has been surmised that this influence hit was from some plantation owners sending excess slaves to sea during the winter 'fallow' seasons. They could sell the slave off, thus saving themselves the expense of maintaining slaves during periods when the large numbers needed to plant and reap were not needed... in the process, these slaves would take with them their work songs, which would then very easily spread if not in exact form at least in spirit amongst the other crew.

It's a hard call. I've read some VERY persuasive essays that say that the African trade routes were the genesis of shanteys. I've also read some VERY persuasive essays that say that the Irish 'coffin' ships (starting with the earliest emigrants) were the genesis, that traditional Norwegian whaling songs were, and that many other nations were. Me? Once again, I think it was the real melting pot in action, melding together every influence that caught a sailor's ear into what could stand as one of the only truly international folk art forms.

Gee, that sounds important.

:^

M


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Subject: RE: BS: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: toadfrog
Date: 14 May 01 - 08:01 PM

It is awful hard to believe that call and response is "exclusively African," or whatever. I've heard travellers from China remark on call and response work songs from there. We can speculate on where chanteys [effete and otherwise] came from, but shouldn't get too doctrinaire about it. Hugil says, the widespread use of chanteys was from about 1830-1870, and originated on the packets. But for sure, those weren't the first work songs ever sung at sea. I think there is a 14th Century one that goes something like this:

Heisa, Heisa!
Vorsa, vorsa!
wow, wow!
One long pull!
Young blood!
More mud! [or mude]

Anyone familiar with that?


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Subject: RE: BS: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 14 May 01 - 07:39 PM

Just to be pedantic CY, "African" is not synonomous with negro. The evidence both acedemic and empirical would indicate that the seafaring tradition in Africa started and was concentrated around the Mediterranean and Red Sea coasts, not those areas below the Sahara. I agree that the use of "call - response" work songs is widespread in the African continent, but I would argue that this suggests a parallel development to a common situation, rather than radiation from an original source. Similarly the use of shanties or shanty form chants by Polynesians has already been mentioned, so I would very much doubt your hypothesis, even without the evidence of brother Fabri.

Having said that I must agree about the influence of seamen from the West coast of Africa on the development of those shanties still extant.

Following on from Barry's comments about them being 'the cream of the crop' there is a documented incident of a ship hiring crew in Glasgow (in the 1880's I believe) whose master displayed a prominent sign that he was hiring crew but that no Irish or Niggers need apply. Of course members of both these communities came to remonstrate with him and he "allowed" himself to be persuaded to "make an exception" for the best those who showed up. He ended up with one watch of Irish and one of negros between which he encouraged rivalry and achieved one of his fastest and most efficient trips.

Pete M


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Subject: RE: BS: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: GUEST,Barry Finn, still out & about
Date: 14 May 01 - 06:21 PM

IMHO, I'd go as far as saying that African culture has had more influence on shanties than any other one culture. They've been lords of the West African coast line since the first European explorers hired them. As far back as can be recalled they've anyways used singing to help with group labor. Other cultures of course used singing for labor but were they also heavily envolved in open sea transportation, not as much as the African. They may not have been the first but when steped onboard & started to go shoulder to shoulder with the rest they made their presence felt & known. To further support CY, I'd say they eventually became cream of the crop, the old men of the sea. Before they were eventually driven from the sea & left with the cook or steward's positions, they were the sailors that had no other empolyment opportunity as did their white counterpart who only needed to make a few passages or one every so often. Unlike a lot of the fellow sailors (whom it seems were becoming younger & had fewer responsibilities) many had families & communities that strongly depended upon them for more than their daily bread. Like the black cowboy, black sailors numbered around 20% or so during their hayday but it's all in who writes the histories. Family's leaving thee Library so I gotta go, great thread CY. If I can get my computer up & running again I stop in. Barry


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