Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore

Subject: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 May 01 - 07:36 PM

How do you do it on a lap dulcimer? Everyone says they love what I am doing and it sounds good to them, but when I tape it and play it back, it sounds as though every note is just ker-plucked!

I am still just doing the basic strumming, haven't gotten into picking or chords, yet. Rog likes it better when I use the psaltery bow I bought for it. I have some other types of picks and will experiment with them, tomorrow, but I'd really like to hear from you all, too, please.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 May 01 - 07:47 PM

For ballads and laments, I use a thumb pick instead of a flat pick. Maybe that will help.

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: IvanB
Date: 14 May 01 - 07:56 PM

kat, I tried all sorts of commercial picks for the dulcimer and wasn't pleased with anything. Then I started cutting them out of plastic containers left over from various foodstuffs. I finally found some that I really liked, but it's been so long ago now that I can't remember what they came from. They're a translucent plastic, relatively thick, but still quite flimsy. I think their flexibility is what does the trick.

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 May 01 - 08:41 PM

You could always try using a traditional goose quill, but it may just be that you have the microphone a bit too close.  As IvanB mentioned, food containers can be a good source of material; I used to make them out of margarine lids, but only when I was broke.  The pick needs to flex easily as you strum, and you might also try holding it nearer to the top; it'll break sooner, but the sound should be more delicate.  That "ker-pluck" sound can be useful if you're playing dance music, mind.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Bill D
Date: 14 May 01 - 09:24 PM

I almost never use a pick...I like the 'softer' effect of my index finger. (yes, it does get a bit tender when you first start)...I'm afraid I don't use a lot of 'classic' approaches, but then I am usually the only one I need to please. I do play chords in Ionian tuning a lot. I have a dulcimer with walnut friction pegs, and currently one is broken, so I haven't played in awhile..(sometimes technology is MUCH easier...the guitar type tuners are a LOT easier to deal with)

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 May 01 - 10:19 PM

Well, I am glad it doesn't sound as though it is me as much as maybe my pick! Thanks! I had read Jean Ritchie's advice on cutting them out of plastic and did try a couple, but wasn't very happy with them. I have been using Fender triangular that I like the feel and shape of, BUT it is hard and does not flex easily.

LOL...it IS great for this one French jig I've been working up, as it is fast and the volume is great!

BillD, I reckon I will try my finger for strumming, too. I never sent you any info for the noter, even though I still wouldn't turn one down:-), because I find using my finger works really well. The way one is supposed to hold a noter is just really awkward for me and hurts my shoulder.

Thanks, everyone,

kat

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Ma-K
Date: 14 May 01 - 10:45 PM

Kat, Cut about 3/8''off a thin Fender triangular pick. Use the long piece. Works for me. Sometimes holding he pick close to the point helps......Mary

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Banjer
Date: 15 May 01 - 05:50 AM

I've had good luck with strumming with the nails of the first and second finger of the right hand. Just sort of drag them across the strings at the hollow and experment with differing pressure and timing. Let the one finger strike just before the other and then both together until you get the sound or effect you want.

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: John P
Date: 15 May 01 - 09:07 AM

I spent a long time looking for a pick that would help smooth out the sound a bit that I didn't have to make myself. I came up with using a nylon pick instead of a regular plastic pick. The nylon is softer. They are made by Jim Dunlop and come in a variety of thicknesses. The thinner ones seem to work well. I'm using a .60 mm, although I think they come in at least one thinner size; I think I used to have one and liked it even better. I'll have to take a look when I get to work. The nylon picks have another advantage in that they wear down evenly, instead of getting the sharp angles and edges the way plastic picks do.

Part of the chunky sound you're hearing may also be the recording itself. The sound of the instrument echoes around in the room when you are hearing it live. Unless you are using a very good microphone, you are probably losing a good deal of that. Try sitting in the bathtub and recording it. Also, some instruments just sound clunky, especially inexpensive lap dulcimers. It's part of the charm.

Warning: Commercial Announcement to follow. I just bought a really nice dulcimer (Sunhearth) and am selling a pretty nice one (Blue Lion). Anyone interested?

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 01 - 10:30 AM

How much, John?

I had to smile at your telling me to climb in the tub, as I am recording directly into my computer with a cheapo microphone. Cords etc. are not long enough to reach to the tub. We are talking about getting a laptop, though. The image is pretty funny, but I udnerstand what you mean about the acoustics and picking up, etc. I will at least try that with my small tape recorder and see if I notice a difference.

Banj, thanks, I tried that last night after reading BillD's suggestion.

I am also going to check out some different pics. Thanks MaK, I will try that, too.

I am just so glad to hear it is not just me sounding as though I ahve clodhoppers on my hands!*bg*

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Pinetop Slim
Date: 15 May 01 - 10:43 AM

Thin fender picks work for me.
Bill D: The first time I broke a friction peg, I called the builder. His advice: "just get you a jacknife and a piece of cherry and whittle a new one." It wasn't hard to do.
Your local music shop owner has probably got a container of miscellany under the counter that includes an old violin peg or two that will probably fit.

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: black walnut
Date: 15 May 01 - 01:53 PM

I think it's really quite difficult to know the sound of your dulcimer from a tape recorder. A lot of what I hear in my own dulcimer playing has to do with vibrations that a piece of tape couldn't possibly know. Same with my harp....I've heard people tell me they hear my harp through their feet touching the floor. Anyway, for what it's worth....

~black walnut

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Bert
Date: 15 May 01 - 02:11 PM

I like the plastic bottle, pick idea. It's what the Arabs use nowadays to play The Ud. Works much better than the traditional Eagle's Quill. Cut a strip just over half an inch wide and about three inches long and trim the end to suit.

To record any stringed instrument properly you need a recorder where you can turn off the automatic volume control and adjust the recording level yourself. You need the recording volume to be set to about HALF of what the meter tells you. This will avoid overmodulation of the attack spike that is typical with stringed instruments.

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 15 May 01 - 06:13 PM

Kat--

If I am playing with a group and need to make the melody stand out above a background, I use a medium pick. When playing solo I use the thinnest flatpick I can find. Much less pick noise, etc. Strumming with bare fingers is good for accompaniment, but I can't do much to boost melody that way. Banjo picking, three-finger style, would definitely eliminate overkill on sound level.

One further thought: I finally found the correct strings to use--after driving two instrument gurus to drink--and strung my second "laptop" to G-D-G instead of D-A-D I started with. Much mellower sound.

I've gotta respect what Bert says about the problem being mainly on the hardware side, though. Somebody with recording expertise would probably solve 90% of the problem without you changing anything.

CC

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: IvanB
Date: 15 May 01 - 06:50 PM

kat, you asked the other night why you'd never heard me play my hammer dulcimer on Paltalk. The problem is almost the same - with the cheap sound setup on my computer, whenever I record something on hammer dulcimer, the percussive sound of the hammers is very annoying. So those that are talking about the problems inherent in the recording process are right on.

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 May 01 - 06:54 PM

Really bad ain't it Ivan? Add in all the overtones and it sounds pretty raucus.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 01 - 07:03 PM

Thanks, you'se guys...that does make me feel much better. As I am recording for a tape to go to my grandsons for their 3rd b-day, I think we'll be okay, even with the slight plunking; they won't mind. When they call and I sing to them, then play the dulcimore, then sing, again, they tell their mom to tell Grandma KitKat to play the BIG music, again! So...they love that dulcimer with the hard Fender pick!**BG**

I have been playing around with the tunings. I love the Aeolian and have actually composed a tune of my own in it, plus play that French jig I was talking about earlier.

I really like Mixolydian, too, but almost everything I learned first was in Ionian, so I am mostly tuned to DAA.

Wouldn't mind having another one or two around to keep in different modes, but tuning up or down really doesn't seem like too much bother, as long as I don't break a string!

Speaking of...what brand strings do you all prefer? And, do you use dulcimer or banjo strings?

Thanks for letting me pick yer brains!

kat

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 15 May 01 - 08:53 PM

Kat--

I have the worlds greatest collection of garage sale instruments, precisely to ease the job of practicing different tunings frequently. I think strings do tend to break if they are continually being changed in pitch. I've noticed that especially on the banjo, where the pitch changes from tuning to tuning can be fairly radical.

At a given diameter, is there really any difference between "banjo" and "dulcimer" strings?

CC

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 May 01 - 09:21 PM

(no)..........try not to mention this to those folks who are hopeless freakazoids on dulcimer lore Charlie.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Mike Byers
Date: 15 May 01 - 10:07 PM

It could be that your noter has an effect, too. I've been making these out of Delrin with a hardwood handle, and all the dulcimer players I've given them to seem to like them. The Delrin is self-lubricating and quite slick, but even though it's not hard enough to damage your strings or frets it doesn't get grooves worn in it like wooden noters do. It's non-hydroscopic, too, which is important if you play underwater. If you'd like one, drop me an e-mail at [e-mail] The Bailiff's Hollow Technical Center is one of the world's largest research facilities for dulcimer noters and hammers: "We don't make dulcimers; we make dulcimers sound better."

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 May 01 - 10:42 PM

kat, don't make me come up there..........(*BG*)I really should, so we could dull c more together.........I like McSpadden mixolydians because they will take the tension of the higher mixo tuning, but D'Addarios are OK too. I have to mail order the McSpaddens, but can get D'Addarios here.

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:20 PM

Noter? You mean somebody actually uses a noter as it is intended? How do you slant chord? How do you split chord? How do you slide without sounding like--well, like somebody sliding with a noter? Not wishing to waste anything, I gave the noter to the washboard player, who saves her expensive manicure with it. Sorry, Mike. Different strokes, etc. Feel free to consider me hopelessly declasse'.

Freakazoids. My word for the week. Never to be used in reference to fellow Catters, but still .... Merci beaucoupschoen.

Chicken Charlie

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:34 PM

At last , I have found a thread on Mudcat that I don't understand ! Not one word !

Now, these dulcimers, are they the double-ended pointy things with three strings? Or Are they the hammery things that you hit at random with chopsticks ? No offense here, I need to know.

Murray

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:37 PM

Charlie, you made me splutter all over the keyboard again! Answer to your first questions--I don't. And I do sound like somebody using a noter. To me, that "whistle" is part of the charm of a dulcimer. But I know a LOT of people who wouldn't be caught dead with one.

I usually use a noter because when I play dulcimer it is almost always in 1880 settings......so I use a feather then, too. Also, my fiddle calluses are in the wrong places to use my fingers on a dulcimer.

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:45 PM

Murray, most of us are talking about the pointy things with 3 or more strings. Some of the posts are about the chopstick dulcimers.......spaw builds those.

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 May 01 - 12:12 AM

Gosh, you mean I really could play one of them underwater!! Great scot!

Mike Byers, I may take you up on that just to see what it's like! It just feels more natural to use my finger, rather than a noter. As I said to BillD, who has offered several times to send me a handmade, spezchul wooden noted, turned by himself, a master woodworker, using a noter feels awkward to me, but hell, I am game to try anything, almost, once! Thanks!

Sorcha...I am having so much fun with it. Can't remember what strings I bought last, but the hock shop over here, Mr. Money, always has all of them at half price, so when you need some, holler!

John Peekstok...if you are serious...would you please send me a PM. Don't know if it'd be in my price range, but I've decided a womon can never have too many dulcimers!

Thanks, Spaw. Thanks, CC! This is turning out to be a great threads thanks to all of you, including you, Murray...puir thing...we'll have to get you hooked, too!**BG**

luvya'll...kat

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Bert
Date: 16 May 01 - 12:16 AM

"It just feels more natural to use my finger" - Now do you really think that you are going to be allowed to forget that remark?

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 May 01 - 12:27 AM

Oh, dear!! Did I say that!? Nevermind!

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 May 01 - 12:38 AM

"HEY....That's NOT my bellybutton!!!"
"That ain't my finger either...."

.......punchline to an old joke.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 May 01 - 12:41 AM

ssssspppppeeeeewwww!!!! I remember that joke!

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 May 01 - 12:49 AM

Actually, I love the sound of the dulcimer, either double pointy or hammery, BUT, what the hell is a "noter" ?.

It is at times like this that I realise the pain that non-guitar playing musicians must go through when they encounter Rick Fielding's threads ................... (only jesting , Rick )

Murray

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 May 01 - 12:51 AM

Noter--1/4" diameter x about 6" long piece of wood dowel or other material used to press down the melody strings (traditionally used; lots of folks now use finger, or fingers for chording instead)

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 May 01 - 12:51 AM

Murray.........think "slide bar"

Spaw

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 May 01 - 12:53 AM

or bottleneck...........It's used to fret the instrument instead of fingers.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Bert
Date: 16 May 01 - 12:55 AM

A noter is a just a fancy-smancy name for a stick. Of course a bent stick is allowed if a straight one seems awkward. But then, some people feel more natural using their finger. *GRIN*

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 May 01 - 12:56 AM

ONE MORE TIME BERT AND I SWEAR I AM GOING TO COME DOWN THERE!!!!

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 May 01 - 12:57 AM

......or perhaps a cucumber.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 May 01 - 01:02 AM

You guys have got to be kidding me. Like, why don't you just fret the notes with your fingertips ? Slide dulcimer ? This has got to be the Twilight Zone ......Spaw and Sorcha are coming to get me ..........

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ........

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 May 01 - 01:07 AM

Hey, Murray, it's better than duck tape, ass keys, and omelette enemas! (nobody is ever gonna understand any of this)

No, really, Murray, for some reason, a noter stick is the traditional way to play a lap/Appalacian (double pointy thing) instead of fingers. For one thing, the melody strings are a very small gauge which can slice your fingers open (ask me!) They are like a 5th string on a banjo---un wound wire and very thin. It's difficult to slide your fingers on strings that thin and the "whistle" sound is considered the "dulcimer" sound.

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 May 01 - 01:22 AM

Sorcha, I am trying to understand all this , I'm not decrying anything you say. BUT, how do you play anything but a straightforward open chord with a "noter" ?

I really want to know !!

Murray

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 May 01 - 01:28 AM

You don't, Murray. The Mountain dulcimer lays (usually) across your lap or on a table top. The nearest string (or pair of strings) to your body are the melody strings. These are pressed down on the fret to note the melody, and the other two are strummed open to create drones. That is why tuning is so important on a Mountain dulcimer. It is not a chromatic instrument--meaning ALL the notes are not there all the time. What notes are there depend on what tuning/scale/mode you are in......you still with me?

Dulcimer has a fret board similar to a guitar, and the melody is fretted, but the chords are droned (in Trad style). The lap dulcimer can also be finger fretted, finger chorded, flat picked like a guitar, or almost anything you want or are able to do with it.

I have heard it sound like a guitar, dobro, lap steel, (plucked)harp, piano, violin and hammered dulcimer if you beat on the strings with a pencil or something. It's a really weird instrument.

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 May 01 - 01:49 AM

Sorry Sorcha, I still don't get it. But I did once see a movie with Jeff Healy playing amazing slide guitar on his lap. Is that anything like what we are talking about ?

Murray

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 May 01 - 03:14 AM

Okay Murray...........When a dulcimer is laying on your lap, the classic way to play it is to play the melody on the string closest to you. The first dulcimers only had three strings and the frets only ran under that first string. Most today have the first string doubled and frets all the way across....but think about the 3-string, half fret "classic."

The melody string (closest to you as it lays on your lap) plays the melody and the other two are simply strummed as drones like the drone pipes on a bagpipes. A "noter" is simply a small, round, piece of wood....like a short piece of dowel rod or a stub of a pencil and is used to press down the melody string instead of using your finger. Remember that the other two strings are not touched by the noter...they just drone along to the pitches they are tuned to.

NOW....do you get it?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Banjer
Date: 16 May 01 - 03:33 AM

Perhaps this page will help to further explain some of what is being discussed here: Click here

Just in case the blue clickie didn't work the URL is: http://members.tripod.com/~SnugaBill/noframes.html

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Banjer
Date: 16 May 01 - 03:42 AM

Note the many references on that dulcimer page to our own Jean Ritchie, know here as 'kytrad'.

Kat, I think if yuo are going to play your dulcimer in the bathtub as suggested earlier, that waterproof noter might come in handy!! I've been aske to go play my banjo in many various places, outhouses among them, but no one has ever told me to go sit in the tub and play. Maybe because they know it's not electric and wouldn't have the desired effect **BG**

Note to Bert, doesn't it seem if one uses the noter he/she is cheating the finger out of a lot of fun?

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: black walnut
Date: 16 May 01 - 06:39 AM

It's a bit early in the morning here for me to be thinking straight, but let me try to help Murray.

Noter Stick: Lorraine Lee Hammond told me that the oldest dulcimers in the Smithsonian Institute have nailheads poking up out of the fingerboards instead of frets. You couldn't play a melody on them with a finger for more than 2 seconds on those things.....hence the helpful stick.

Slide Dulcimer: Lorraine L.H. plays wicked blues on slide dulcimer....the same way one would play a dobro, with a bottleneck slide. Not the same process at all as a noting stick. Really and truly sliding. (She likes to perform slide dulcimer wearing sunglasses). You need a special setup for that kind of playing, else the strings are too close to the fingerboard. I know....I've performed a very clanky slide version of Amazing Grace.

Hope I've helped.

~black walnut

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 May 01 - 04:13 PM

Heya! I tried a plastic medicine bottle as a slider today and it sounded kinda kewl, plus it felt comfortable in my hand, SO...I've decided I could use a noter, just have to find one that is about an inch in diameter.:-)

ANOTHER QUESTION:

I bought a padded bag from Elderly and it was too big and "clunky", so I bought a smaller canvas one from Black Mountain. (My dulcimer is a Black Mountain Old Standby #56.) Now that I am gigging on a regular basis, I decided a needed a hard shell case, so dutifully ordered one from Elderly. IT is HUGE. Just got here today and my poor little "Peaches" looks lost in it and slides around!! So, I am back to the canvas one for now, as I gave the padded one to my sis for her 56.

Anyway, anyone know of a good place to get a used or new hard shell case that doesn't cost as much as my 56 itself did? Also, what are your thoughts on chipboard cases vs padded, etc. In other words, what kind of cases do you prefer and why? I need to stay as lightweight as possible, as carrying an 8-9lb bag on one arm and the O2 on the other will wear me out before I get to play!

I've thought about just making a liner with foam for my canvas bag, but I really prefer more solid protection, like my violin case.

Thanks!!!

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 May 01 - 05:42 PM

Okay I'm back. Yes, I get it now , Spaw, although I still am not qute clear as to why it is necessary to use a noter. Why would you not just use the fingertips of the left hand to fret the notes?

BW, nailheads instead of frets, LOL !!!Mind you, doesn't surprise me, I have worked beside American carpenters, nothing surprises me anymore.

Is the three string dulcimer capable of being played with any kind of virtuosity? (I have seen Lorraine Hammond play, and I enjoyed it, but I didn't go "WOW !!!)

Finally, do any of you dulcimerists know Deb Suran who makes these instruments in Maine?

Murray

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Bill D
Date: 16 May 01 - 05:55 PM

whoops! Kat...I have 2 noters done...but they are closer to 'standard' size....a 1" diameter thing might be a bit tricky to position correctly. I can send 'em. and if they don't work we can put them in the auction.

(that post about 'slick' noters makes me think... I have some Lignumvitae wood, naturally oily, but VERY hard...wonder if it has been tried as noters?

Subject: RE: Non-clunky strumming on the dulcimore
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 May 01 - 06:09 PM

Don't know about the 3 string, Murray, but Gary Gallier (among others) plays a real mean 4 string, and the only difference is the addition of another melody string pitched exactly the same. No, he does not use a noter.

kat, you might try McSpadden dulcimers, they ship a case with their dulcimers, and have two grades--hard hard heavy and a lighter, cheaper cardboard thing.

My noters are oak and walnut. The walnut slides better, but the oak does not groove as badly. L.V. might be kinda cool to try.