Lyr Req: 1913 Massacre (Woody Guthrie)

Subject: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From:
Date: 15 May 01 - 08:52 AM

Anybody have lyrics, and perhaps some background information, for Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre? This is for a presentation to a high school social studies class. Thank you. Andy

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: Mark Clark
Date: 15 May 01 - 09:12 AM

Andy, Click here. I found it by typing "1913 Massacre" into the search box. As Yogi Berra once said "You can observe a lot just by watching."

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 15 May 01 - 09:39 AM

Great song. I can recite bits and pieces , but not the whole song off of the top of my head. It is not in the data base at least not under N, that surprised me.
I am relatively sure it is a true story, not 100%. The facts are all contained in the text of the song. Basically, the coal mine bosses had thugs go to the Unions Christmas Party to cause trouble. They opened the door and shouted fire and then locked the door. The Party was on the second floor, making the narrow stairwell which led to the locked door the only way out.The children rushed the stairwell in a panic causing some children to get crushed to death up against the locked door.I am not sure of the # of the victims. It might be in the text.
It is important to note what a tireless Union supporter Woody was. He thought Unions akin to spirituality. The total being greater than the sum of it's parts. The participants in the massacre, are a perfect analogy for Woody's beliefs, the Union workers with their families having a socail gathering surrounding a religious holiday as opposed to callas thugs laughing at their misdeeds only there to torment the union in a calculated attempt to intimidate them devised by the greedy boss man, who losses a lot of his control if there is a strong union. I wish I had Woody Guthrie assignments in school. I wouldn't have cut so many classes. They made me sing "this land is your land" in first grade, that was it. Next they'll have you writing papers on "visions Of Johanna".Good Luck.

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 May 01 - 09:50 AM

It was copper, not coal mines, in Calumet, Michigan.The incident happened, but objectively, there's no clear proof that the lethal prank was in any way connected with union-busting. Could as easily been some drunks having "fun". It's not at all clear how this could have been of financial benefit to the mine-owners, but Woody had a clear (of somewhat simple) vision of the world.

The song was removed from Digitrad by the insistence of the publisher.

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 May 01 - 10:24 AM

Darn it Dick, I was all set to put in those "caveats" and you got there first. I gotta start getting up earlier in the morning.

I WILL suggest however that folks try to find Jack Elliott singin' this ("Ramblin' Jack Elliott Sings Woody Guthrie") great song. It's Jack at his absolute best. Is that one still available Dick?

Rick

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 15 May 01 - 10:35 AM

Thanks , for the copper correction Dick, I would hate to mess the kid up. Woody's world view was alternately nieve and perceptive. I believe however, pointing out the fact that it may only be a misperception that the copper Co. had anything to do with it Muddies the water, albiet a valid point. I think the song is intentionally designed in black and white and is a very good example of the perspective of the Unionized worker of the time.Furthermore, management was capable of murder as intimidation, in the labor disputes of old. There is incident of snipers shooting picketing strikers in Andrew Carnegie's Pittsburgh steel mills. The anomosity between the two camps was palpatable.
Andy be sure to write THIS ASSIGNMENT KILLS FACISTS in big red letters on the back of your paper.hehehe

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 15 May 01 - 10:37 AM

Rick , a version of Jack doing the song appears on his latest release. The soundtrack to "ballad of Rambling Jack". Great album, great movie.

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 15 May 01 - 10:59 AM

Writing a good protest song is like putting together any good piece of propaganda - you water down your message (and bog down the music)and lessen its effectiveness by insisting on a clear statement ot the "facts". The great song writers understand that personalizing the song and adding details is what really puts a charge in the audience; establishing historical accuracy can be done in the liner notes.

Woody was the master at writing leftist propaganda (and I use the term in its best sense). Bobby D. also became very good at it ("Hurricane" is a classic example). I have always thought that criticisms that I have read in the 'Cat regarding "Ohio" by Neil Young, didn't take its value as propaganda into account.

"Ohio", "Reuben James", and the subject of this thread are all rabble rousing songs, and Al Gore showed us in the last election what happens when you try to give the rabble too much information.

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:07 AM

HEY!!! ... DJH!!!.......Take a few minutes and READ the thread that Mark linked. There is a ton of info there and answers a lot of questions with background data and pictures relating to what you're asking.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:17 AM

Thanks but I didn't ask Andy did. I'll look anyway.

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:29 AM

The reason I didn't have the facts Mark linked is because I started posting a response to Andy prior to Marks post, But, got destracted by pesky office work. Darn Job. I finish only to find Mark's post when I posted.

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:36 AM

Sorry if I sounded rude there........Believe me, we want your thoughts and info dj..........It's just that at times we have a lot of info somewhere and when we can link it, it helps to add to what was said previously. I deally, anyone starting a thread should check and see if an older thread could be either added to or linked. There really is no way to do that and it gets a bit frustrating to have a boatload of threads that keep rehashing instead of adding to the knowledge.

In any case, my apologies.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 May 01 - 11:38 AM

I deally???? Geez, I gotta' pruuffreed mor

Sawp

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 15 May 01 - 01:17 PM

I like I deally , I deally do.

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 May 01 - 01:53 PM

Check also this thread

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: GUEST,Leprechaun
Date: 19 May 01 - 09:39 AM

As much as I like Woody Guthrie's music, his tendency to alter the facts irks me. It detracts from my enjoyment of the songs. Looking at all the links, I couldn't find any evidence that any "thugs held the door" or stood outside and "laughed at their spree." It makes you wonder if Pretty Boy Floyd killed that deputy in cold blood. It makes you wonder if the radio announcer really said "they were just deportees." If he wants to invent a character to assasinate, like old Creeko the buffalo skinner, that's just fine. It doesn't pretend to be historical. But I think it's a rotten thing to make a song about a historical event involving real people and to convict them without a trial.

The owners of the copper mines and the strikebreakers they hired were real people, whose descendants have to bear the obloquy of blame for a tragedy they may not have caused. In America, you're innocent until proven guilty, unless you cross paths with Woody Guthrie, or Bob Dylan, or some other popular icon who has no respect for the truth. They complain about politicians, capitalists and police abusing their power, but isn't this lyrical dishonesty in the name of rabble rousing an abuse of power? How can you holler for justice if you're willing to deny justice to people because you've chosen to hate them?

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 May 01 - 11:45 AM

I am still in the process of looking for the article I mentioned in another thread, a piece in a historical academic magazine, from the early 70's--my recollection is that there was great reason to believe that the story as presented in the song was pretty close to the facts--

It would be good if people posted articles or text when possible, instead of links--the reason being that links don't always work (especially over time)--

Leprechaun, be aware that at the time of the strike(as in most company towns, when there is a labor dispute), the town was pretty much divided in two, and the mine owners, who ran the town, also controlled the legal and judicial system--sheriff's deputies, police, and even the military were often used to break up the strikers--so one cannot assume that the guilty were always caught and punished, even when it was clear who they were--

At any rate, I have to find that article--the story is an interesting one, and the song is very moving--

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: GUEST,Leprechaun
Date: 25 May 01 - 11:19 AM

I think it's entirely possible the scabs yelled fire. It's even possible they held the door. As much as I dislike scabs and strikebreakers, and as much as I detest robber barons who try to crush unions, I still think Woody, God rest his soul, did a dirty thing by convicting the thugs with manufactured evidence. By the time Woody wrote his song, he definitely had the information about the doors opening inward. Do the ends justify the means? There are plenty of nasty things to say about scabs without making up lies, and carving them in musical stone for future generations to believe. It's too late to convince Woody, but there are other songwriters in this forum. I hope they will have the decency to qualify their lyrics, or else adopt an allegorical event that doesn't involve real people.

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: GUEST,guest,J.P.Evans
Date: 26 May 01 - 11:42 AM

The truth & historical evidance ain't allways the same.A government study admited to exacuting 28 innocent people in the 20th centry altho the don't include Sacco & Vanzetti.

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: GUEST,_gargoyle
Date: 26 May 01 - 05:38 PM

Andy

Cut and paste the elements of these two pages into a PowerPoint presentation and you will have an "A"

A simple site with a list of the dead

...http://www.genealogia.fi/emi/emi3d31e.htm

and their link to a photgraph site.

http://www.angelfire.com/mi2/1913/1913T.html

your humble servant,
.gargoyle

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: GUEST,Steve Lehto
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 01:30 PM

Hey All -- a book I wrote on the event will be published in OCT 06. See momentumbooks.com for "Death's Door." Woody's song wasn't all that inaccurate: the doors DID NOT open inward. That was later propaganda. The culprit most likely was a scab: the later confessions of "drunks" were proven to be hoaxes.

Steve

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 02:59 PM

'member, folks, there were a number of "robber baron" type capitalists in the late 19th & early 20th cent. here in America. Woody saw stuff happen to union members/organizers, and heard from survivors of earlier stuff the results of "bosses" hiring strikebreakers. True stories. The need to be in control & to brook NO difference of opinion, thought, or understanding--along with the belief that other people are not quite as human or worthy of consideration as one's self--makes for some serious disregard of consequences of violent confrontation--or the belief that the turmoil, pain, mayhem, death engendered are small price to pay for the establishment of the kind of order the "boss" wants. (see Adolf Hitler, Didi Amin, Josef Stalin, etc. ad infinitum....). Rotten shame that Woody's tale-telling is so often true.....       Tw

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 06:31 PM

there were a number of "robber baron" type capitalists in the late 19th & early 20th cent. here in America.

Um- ya mean, like Ken Lay, the Waltons, Dick Cheney & other U.S. Billionaires?

...The need to be in control & to brook NO difference of opinion, thought, or understanding--along with the belief that other people are not quite as human or worthy of consideration as one's self--makes for some serious disregard of consequences of violent confrontation--or the belief that the turmoil, pain, mayhem, death engendered are small price to pay for the establishment of the kind of order the "boss" wants.

Um- kinda sounds like you're describing the BuShites & the Eye-Rack War.

Interesting how contemporary many of Woody's songs can be, no?.

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 09:09 PM

True! And very sad.

Art

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 09:35 PM

Folk music is always true. (Facts, of course, may be incorrect.)

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 12:02 PM

Leprechaun, I agree with you.

If a person wants a song to promote justice or protest injustice, then that song had better be accurate. Why? because we are inundated by songs, movies, news and propaganda intended to manipulate our emotions. In self-defense we block it out, starting with what seems least likely to be true.

When I see that basic facts are wrong in a work, I decide the entire work is not worth my attention.

An example is the ballad "The Four Maries" I used to feel bad whenever I heard about the lady in Queen Mary's court who killed her baby. Now I know that there is no record of anything like ever happening, and that the song is a cunning piece of anti-Catholic propaganda. It's got a pretty tune, but now I say the hell with it.

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 1913 Massacre
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 08:43 PM

leeneia-
"the song is a cunning piece of anti-Catholic propaganda"

Wha?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 1913 Massacre (Woody Guthrie)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:07 PM

Some of the details of the massacre are covered in the book "Labor's Untold Story, authors Richard Boyer and Herbert Morais. It's also covered briefly at the following link.