Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: SeanM
Date: 18 May 01 - 07:11 PM

While true that there ARE limits to what is allowed as 'free speech', they are DANGEROUS limits, for MANY reasons.

A few that spring immediately to mind -

By calling it 'dangerous' and banning it, you by definition empower the groups that use it within certain segments of society. Look over history, and you'll see many, many social movements that gained power immesurably when they were 'banned'. People will naturally be curious when forbidden from seeing/hearing somethign.

By banning certain aspects of history, you (as noted repeatedly above) greatly increase the chance that the reason for it being banned will recur.

Also as noted above, it's a very slippery and dangerous slope to start down - Once you've empowered a group to censor something, it's highly unlikely that they'll stop there.

This being said, there are times that I do believe that these things should be carefully watched. However, I am a firm believer that rather than banishing things such as the Nazi/Jewish Holocaust to the shadows (where the nasty elements will breed and gain stregnth), the much more effective tactic is to haul the whole mess into the blinding light of close examination. Show the world what the horror is, let the people see why these things are 'evil'.

The Wiesenthal Museum of Tolerance is a wonderful example of this. Their exhibit on the Holocaust pulls no punches, and very effectively fills you with a devastating sense of the true horror that occured.

To sound somewhat hypocritical for a moment, some forms of speech DO need to be curtailed. The aforementioned 'yelling fire in a crowded theater'. Inciting a crowd to violent activity. Basically, speech that either directly creates harm against another group (and I don't include 'wounded self-esteem' as a reason to censor), or creates an atmosphere where harm is a direct result of the activity. The 'Your freedom to swing your fist stops where my nose begins' argument.

Even this, though, needs to be monitored. Authoritarian or Totalitarian government can be very scary...

M

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: mkebenn
Date: 19 May 01 - 08:27 AM

Art, with ALL due respect,"cruelty to trees"? Mike

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: Midchuck
Date: 19 May 01 - 09:03 AM

EVERY &%^$(^ PETTY DICTATOR WHO WANTS TO STAMP OUT THE RIGHT OF PEOPLE HE DISAGREES WITH TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES ALWAYS USES THAT SAME STUPID LINE ABOUT "YELLING 'FIRE' IN A CROWDED THEATRE!" CAN'T YOU COME UP WITH SOME NEW CLICHE TO JUSTIFY YOUR NEED TO CENSOR? IT'S BAD ENOUGH TO NEED TO CONTROL OTHER PEOPLE WITHOUT BEING BORING ABOUT IT!

God, I needed that.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 May 01 - 12:55 PM

I watch Politically Incorrect all the time, and I've never heard Bill do a single song... Is this maybe a thread about the theme song?

sure, preserve it...

;-)

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 19 May 01 - 02:03 PM

Midchuck: Would "Yelling fire in a crowded brothel" be enough of a change of pace? ...crowded fire station? crowded home for the deaf? ...crowded meeting of 'Democrats for Bush?' I quite agree: predictability is less fun even than accordion music.

CC

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: lady penelope
Date: 19 May 01 - 03:47 PM

Mmmm, wasn't it some american chappie who said something along the lines of " I may violently disagree with your beliefs, but I shall defend your right to express them" ( I know I've not got it quite right but that's the jist ).

Personally, I agree. Who gets to say who shall be allowed to speak and who will not?

In the republic of Ireland there used to be "a little censorship". You could not buy any religous book other than the bible. Was that then, politically correct?

This is the price that true democracy must pay. That we must constantly evaluate and re-evaluate our behaviour and see if it meets the needs of the majority. And if you want current music that people have decided is not allowable, you only have to look at rock, rap and "indie".

P.S. You might say that Shakespeare was pointing out a certain amount of hypocrisy with the merchant of Venice. As in, people were quite willing to borrow money from someone who was a social outcast when it suited them.

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: SeanM
Date: 19 May 01 - 05:06 PM

Midchuck;

Would 'Yelling in Caps in a crowded Forum' do?

;^P

M

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 21 May 01 - 03:10 PM

Yeah, Peter, I would rather not be shouted at, no matter how strongly you feel. I think I expressed my opinion with a certain civility; couldn't you have done the same?

Most concepts in this life are not absolute -- there are degrees of everything. I am in favor of almost completely free expression, as long as that expression does not injure others, thereby curtailing their rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. When it does, I advocate minimal protections that will allow people to continue to get their sociopolitical points across without hurting others. This is what "freedom of speech" really means -- the freedom to speak, not the freedom to solicit and conspire with others to commit heinous acts against minorities, and hide behind a "free speech" rationale. The two items I referred to (a Nazi marching song and a swastika flag) have been banned in postwar Germany because that is how they function -- as a solicitation to murder and mayhem.

I'm sorry you feel that the "fire in a crowded theater" expression is a little over-used; it probably is, but that's because it is a clear and succinct expression of a concept that applies to numerous situations. I'll try another. If I stand in the street and yell "let's go out and kill the Jews!", I will be arrested for inciting a riot, solicitation to murder, etc. My words are symbols which express my intention, and I am accountable for them. If I wave a flag that bears a different symbol that expresses the same intention, why shouldn't I be held accountable -- both morally and legally -- for that?

With the obligatory IMHO, yours truly, Whistle Stop

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: GUEST,Ole Bull
Date: 22 May 01 - 01:13 PM

Isn't anyone offended by "I'm a good old rebel"? That one has no problem with airplay. "Knock a Nigger Down" won't go but the equivalent "Blow the Man Down" stands. I don't hear too strong a hue and cry over "Oochie Wally" (whoops, pardon me that's rap, not folk, not allowed to mention it here). Show's to go ya. It's not what you do it's who you do. PC's in the eye of the beholder and will therefore not compute.

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 May 01 - 05:56 PM

Those who burn books
will in the end burn men
Heinrich Heine

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: mousethief
Date: 22 May 01 - 06:00 PM

"Knock a Nigger down" is the equivalent of "Blow the Man Down"? In what way?

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 01 - 10:06 PM

Alex, I don't know "Knock a nigger down", but I assume that it advocates a similar treatment to that meeted out to the upstanding guardian of the law in "Blow the man down"? Some people I know would be very upset at the thought that we were singing songs that advoacted or condoned violence against the police. As a matter of fact the great NZ Government banned one not many years ago for this reason. (there was a thread about it at the time).

I must agree that a little (externally imposed) censorship is like being a little bit pregnant. That does not mean that we do not have a responsibility to make ethical judgements for ourselves. I would also be concerned about the concept of "not upsetting" an audience. Most folk songs that I know were intended to upset people, it's just that the sociopolitical climate alters ones perceptions of what is acceptable; so for example "Dirty blackleg miner', which was intended to 'upset' people at the thought of strike breaking may now be considered non PC because it advocates disuading scabs by means other than rational argument.

As to the phrase that Midcuck and Whistle stop are concerned with, I would suggest that this is not so muuch boring as a non sequiteur. To my mind this has nothing to do with free speech or censorship. A person carrying out this action is either accurately or maliciously describing a situation, not expressing an opinion.

If we are to ban folk or any other songs because they accurately describe situations and beleifs that we (at least in public) profess to be unworthy, then we are guilty of confusing understanding with aquiesence and should ban the study of history completely.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: uncle bill
Date: 22 May 01 - 10:43 PM

Ya can't please everybody, so why try to please anybody? Of course all music exists on a historical timeline. Is your audience there to be educated or entertained? You have to decide the context and let the chips fall where they may BUT YOU MUST ALSO TAKE THE RESPONSIBLITY FOR THE MESSAGE. Someone is bound to take offence at anything. One of my favorite performers and scribes is Kinky Friedman who is about as irreverent as they come. He just tells it like it is.

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: GUEST,Rambam99
Date: 22 May 01 - 10:45 PM

Censorship is NEVER a good thing. No argument required. However, some expression obviously requires explanation, and effort on the part of the listener

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 May 01 - 04:09 AM

I think nobody has linked yet to the old thread about Music, politics and censorship. If you follow the link it'll land you in my post on this theme. I have nothing new to add.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 23 May 01 - 08:37 AM

Well, it's easy to say categorically that all censorship is bad, and all speech should be free. The fact is, we penalize people for speaking every day -- and we should. People plot heinous crimes by speaking to one another (which is why the FBI makes use of wiretaps -- tapes of people speaking -- to arrest Mafiosi); they enlist accomplices by speaking to one another ("I'm planning to shoot up the high school tomorrow; are you with me?"); they create dangerous situations by speaking (yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater is not just "describing a situation"; it's deliberately creating a situation that is likely to get a lot of people killed when they all rush the exits at once); they infringe on other's rights by speaking (as the Supreme Court has acknowledged in the case of some over-zealous anti-abortionists). Any of the people engaging in these activities can claim "free speech" as their defense; in fact, they often do. But should all of these people be allowed to continue these activities so that we don't have to make tough choices? I think not.

I started down this path on this thread by commenting that it made sense for postwar Germany to ban the swastika flag and the Horst Wessel Lied. The flag and song in question were important recruiting tools for the Nazi regime, which had just engineered the biggest war in history, bringing death and destruction to hundreds of millions of people worldwide. Abstractions about the freedom to sing any song you want or wave any flag you want are all very nice, but sometimes in this world you have to draw some lines. The world will get along just fine without the Horst Wessel Lied.

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 May 01 - 11:05 AM

When I first got innarested in folk music, Rudyard Kipling and Stephen Foster were no-nos. Whaling was fine, as was wife beating, if treated humorously. Sex was just beginning to be accepted (in song, that is).

Political sensibilities change. If you go through the process of losing everything that might be offensive today, you won't have much left tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: SDShad
Date: 23 May 01 - 12:03 PM

Censorship is never a good thing? Almost never, and I'll agree, but I'd say anyone, anyone at all, should've been (and probably was) prevented from publicly sharing this one in 1942:

"The Allies have broken Enigma. For that matter, when the German Navy added another wheel to Enigma, they broke that one too. They've been accurately reading most every German military and naval communique for oh, a good year or two now. Oh, yeah, and they're developing a digital computer the like of which the world's never seen to keep breaking codes. German codes are pretty much permanently compromised at this point. Oh, and by the way, they've broken the Japanese' Purple code, as well."

Now, I think it's a terrible injustice that all of the Colossus computers were destroyed to preserve these state secrets after the war, and that for decades we were fed the lie that ENIAC was the first digital computer, but all things in their time and place. For anyone to state the above during the war would've been the highest treason imaginable.

There have always been, even in the most democratic societies, and probably will always need to be, at least some limits on the boundaries of free speech. These limits must be as absolutely few as possible, and extremely narrowly defined.

And, to stay (or get back) on topic, I can't imagine a single song, however odious and offensive, that warrants absolute censorship and removal from all archives and records. I can certainly understand the impulse in immediate post-war Germany to ban the Horst Wessel Lied; the legacy of Nazism was an open wound from Stalingrad to the Pyrynees, and remained so for a very long time. But even such a ban must be relaxed eventually, if only to prevent contemporary followers of the Corporal from making a martyr of Horst all over again.

Shad

Subject: iRELAND- Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: Rebel135
Date: 23 May 01 - 10:42 PM

Im not sure I can agree with you Shad, I beleive that Adolf the Aryan has already acheived matrydom.

There is constant change in our world and many deranged idiots seem to focus on the absolute worst.

Music is a powerful unifying force and I find some songs are so powerful that they can unite interest groups that on their own would not be formed on their own.

There are some songs because of their very nature that you cannot find anywhere anymore.

Damm Damm the Phiillipinos is a fine song....??? But its sentiments are so politically incorrect that they would cause riots in the right crowd.

But the song has a historical place as US Army Marine and Navy troops so liked the song that the authorities literally found it impossible to stop its singing.

Its haunting and forthright verses still echos.

The Line Civilize em with a krag, benathe our starry flag And return us to our beloved home.

Speaks volumes. Ya gotta know what a Krag is to undersand it though.

Its a soldier saying shoot them with a Krage Jorgenson rifle, the standard issue rifle of the US Army.

Few people can be proud of that statment but if you learn the history of the Spanish American War and The philipine insurection, as dirty a war as you'd every want to see you might just understand.

You search all over the net and I'll bet you that you cannot find this song.

It was stamped out by the Americans authorities who were embarrased by its message.

Its a typical soldier sentiment.

By the Way, I have a record IRA Songs of Rebellion done by the Clancy brothers. Its a great disk. But its message is seductive!!!

I've mever been to Ireland, Im not Irish but together with the Beattles give Ireland back to the Irish they make powerful statments

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 May 01 - 12:23 PM

Rebel135- If you want to lose some money, I'll be happy to take your bet on Damn, Damn, Damn the Filipinos. Just type Filipinos in the blue search box at the top of the page, and see what comes up.

I'm clearly on the side of preserving all songs. I believe that the music of any given culture and period is key to understanding it. To a great extent, that's what DigiTrad is all about.

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 24 May 01 - 01:02 PM

Aren't most folk singers/writers somewhat politically incorrect by nature? We make up songs and give personal commentary on the events of the day. Most of would rather have a root canal without pain killers before we would give up being what we are.

As a Native American, I say preserve/sing the songs as you see fit and continue to be a thorn in the side of current rules of PC.

I usually give some history of the song before I sing it and let people that I may or may not agree with or like the song.

Add Banks of the Ohio to the list, murdering women.

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: GUEST,Bob P
Date: 24 May 01 - 01:30 PM

It's your duty to be outspoken. . . Well pick something!

When parameter setters win, parameters invariably move inward.

Thats what happened to personal liberty in Germany and is happening to free expression now.

Yaknow;

A Nazi is nothing but a republican on speed.

A democrat is nothing but a socialist on prozac.

How far in does that make you want to move the fence.

Liberty, like chess, goes to those who control the center.

And, about that guy yelling fire, either he's right and there's smoke, or he's wrong and there's no smoke. So all this fuss is about this guy, perhaps, being wrong.

So let's start locking up folks for being wrong. Wow, look at the empty streets!

What would be really dangerous would be some form of tort reform that gives this guy immunity from legal exposure.

Got me goin, even had to check that I was cookieless.

Subject: RE: Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs???
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 May 01 - 08:35 AM

I found this bit while searching for something else:

In Switzerland, writer, printer and singer of an antijewish carnival verse have been sentenced in 1997. The whole story (in German).

Wolfgang