Origins: We Are the D-Day Dodgers

Subject: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: grannyjan
Date: 19 May 01 - 09:48 AM

i'VE GOT THE TWO LINES STUCK IN Y HEAD :

@We are the D- day dodgers, Who fought in Italy@

From the 2nd World War, anyone out there know the rest?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Dita
Date: 19 May 01 - 09:52 AM

Type "D-day" in the search box top right and you've go them.
love, john.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 19 May 01 - 09:53 AM

Click here

Ed

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Clifton53
Date: 19 May 01 - 10:13 AM

,,, always on the vino, always on the spree
Eight? army scroungers and their tanks
We live in Rome, among the Yanks,
We are the D-Day Dodgers, in sunny Italy.

Naples and Casino, were taken in our stride
We didn't go to fight there, we just went for the ride
Anzio and Sangro, their just names
We only went, to look for dames
We are the D-Day Dodgers, in sunny Italy. We landed at Salerno, a holiday with pay
The gerries brought the bands out, to greet us on the way,
Showed us the sights and gave us tea,
We all had girls, and the beer was free
We are the D-Day Dodgers, in sunny Italy

Look around the mountains in the mud and rain
You'll see the scattered crosses, there's some that have no name
Heartbreak and toil and suffering gone, the boys beneath them, slumber on
They are the D-Day Dodgers, who stay in Italy

Dear Lady Astor, 'ya think 'ya know a lot
Standing on a platform, and talking tommyrot
You're England's sweetheart and her pride
We think your mouths too bloody wide
That's from 'yer D-Day Dodgers,in sunny Italy
That's from 'yer D-Day Dodgers, in sunny Italy.

At least that is how I learned it. I think we had a thread on this not very long ago, try a forum search.

I believe the song was written by Hamish Henderson in response to some pontificating from the crown. I like the song, but as a life-long Giant fan, it's hard for me to sing the word, "Dodgers". BG

Clifton

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 May 01 - 10:20 AM

Please check the DT first.

Jon

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Fiolar
Date: 20 May 01 - 06:31 AM

The Dorset folk group "The Yetties" have recorded a very good version.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: GUEST,Mac Tattie
Date: 20 May 01 - 06:48 AM

There is a far far better version from Jimmy Hutchison on his new CD. "Chorachree" on the Tradition Bearers Series LTSCD1002.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 12:07 AM

We should take note of the fact that the version that Guest Ed provided the link to has 3 more verses than the one in DT, and a few other significant differences. I have marked them with boldface in below. I have no idea which version is more "authentic."

Copied from http://www.acronet.net/~robokopp/english/ddaydodg.htm :

D-DAY DODGERS

1. We are the D-Day Dodgers, out in Italy,
Always on the vino, always on the spree.
Eighth Army skivers and their tanks,
We go to war in ties like swanks,
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, in sunny Italy.

2. We landed at Salerno, a holiday with pay.
Jerry brought his bands out to cheer us on his way,
Showed us the sights and gave us tea.
We all sang songs. the beer was free,
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, the lads that D-Day dodged.

3. Palermo and Cassino were taken in our stride.
We did not go to fight there. We just went for the ride.
Anzio and Sangro are just names.
We only went to look for dames,
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, in sunny Italy.

4. On our way to Florence, we had a lovely time.
We drove a bus from Rimini right through the Gothic Line.
Then to Bologna we did go,
And went bathing in the River Po,
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, the lads that D-Day dodged.

5. We hear the boys in France are going home on leave.
After six months service, such a shame they're not relieved.
And we're told to carry on a few more years,
Because our wives don't shed no tears,
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, out in sunny Italy.

6. Once we had a "blue light" that we were going home,
Back to dear old Blighty, never more to roam.
Then someone whispered, "In France we'll fight,"
We said, "Not that, we'll just sit tight,"
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, the lads that D-Day dodged.

7. Dear Lady Astor, you think you know a lot,
Standing on a platform and talking tommy rot.
Dear England's sweetheart and her pride,
We think your mouth is much too wide.
From the D-Day Dodgers, out in sunny Italy.

8. Look around the hillsides, through the mist and rain.
See the scattered crosses, some that bear no name.
Heartbreak and toil and suffering gone,
The lads beneath, they slumber on.
They are the D-Day Dodgers, who'll stay in Italy.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 06:22 AM

Clifton53

Nothing whatsoever to do with pontificating by the crown. The song was written in response to a speach made by Lady Astor in Plymouth during the build up to the invasion of Normandy. She referred to the men of the British Eighth Army as D-Day Dodgers, implying that they were shirking and keeping out of what she viewed as being the "real fighting".

The version above from Jim Dixon is interesting:

The reference to the wearing of ties in the first verse may have something to do with General Alexander, Commander of the First Army, who landed in North Africa during the Torch landings attacking the Axis forces from the West. He was very particular about the appearance of "his" men and they were always distinguished from the more casually dressed men of the Eighth Army (Desert rats). The two were combined for the assault on Sicilly and the eventual landing at Salerno in Italy. By that time the Eighth Army Commander (Montgomery) had been posted home to take command of British and Commonwealth troops assigned to the invasion of Normandy. So when they went into Italy, Alexander's insistance on people being properly dressed came to the fore.

The mention of Palermo at the start of the third verse is a bit incongruous as that belonged to the Sicillian campaign all the other names mentioned belong to the Italian campaign.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Jock Morris
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 07:21 AM

DT version looks to be Hamish Henderson's version of the song, but AFAIK he only collected it and adjusted it to his liking, rather than writing the whole thing.

Scott

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: GUEST,susanne (skw) still on holiday
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:35 PM

Cant check now, but Ive also read that the words ascribed to Nancy Astor may be apocryphal.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Mark Ross
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 06:00 PM

It was a rumor that was going around Sicily that Nancy Astor had made some comment on the florr of the House of Commons about "D-Day Dodgers" that prompted the song. "History is what happened, folklore is how people reacted to what happened." Although, I could swear I read somewhere that Henederson DID write the song(or maybe only part of it).

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Gareth
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 06:33 PM

Will take me a little time to check - but I was always under the impresion that these words were said at a political meeting in Plymouth (UK) - In the interests of Folk accuracy ( An Oxymoron ) we should know.

But I'll tell you who will know, her successor as MP Michael Foot (1945 General Election) who lost the saet in the 1959 General Election.

Gareth.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: GUEST,macca
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 06:54 PM

I remember this song from my father, who was with the 12th Royal Lancers in Eighth Army through North Africa, and then in Italy. I clearly recall him singing the verses Clifton noted, probably from around the mid fifties onwards, and I'm pretty sure he meant every syllable. As his interest in "Folk" music was negligible, being from the music-hall, Harry Lauder, and ITMA generation, with the idea that Andy Stewart was Scotland's answer to Elvis Presley, he would have seen the song from a participant's viewpoint. He may have agreed with the extra verses Jim Dixon has noted, but it's fairly certain they seem to be tacked on to the original three/four verses afterwards, as part of the "Folk Process" by various people with their own personal axes to grind or messages to get across.

As a point of interest, my father never sang D Day Dodgers as a funny song with a sad verse, but as a trenchant comment on how the people doing the real work saw the upper crust and loud mouths with the soft jobs. And that's how it was generated - by the troops. Hamish henderson probably certainly collected it, but it's my bet it was produced originally by some squaddie and his mates as a bit of purely local comment which caught the imagination of the army who really did feel upset by Lady Astor's comments in the House, and it spread. The real start to any "Folk" song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 May 02 - 09:44 AM

A brief biography of Lady Astor at xrefer doesn't mention the alleged remarks, but it does contain some interesting info.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: masato sakurai
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:55 AM

"The term 'D-Day Dodgers' is attributed to Nancy, Lady Astor, Britain's first woman MP and a harsh-spoken, American-born Tory matron who campaingned tirelessly against sex and drink.
In October 1944 Lady Astor was a member of an all-party Parliament delegation that was allowed to visit Italy to study the troops' living conditions. It is said that as a result, she not merely described the troops as 'D-Day Dodgers', but declared them to be drunken and dissolute. She was also said to have opined that as so many had spent so much of their time in brothels, the incidence of VD among them was extremely high; and that when they came home on leave, they should be made to wear yellow arm-bands, so that British womanhood could identify them for what they were, and be warned.
Lady Astor herself indignantly and repeatedly denied that she had ever thought, let alone uttered, anything of the kind. She wrote to the editor of the Daily Mirror, asking him to publish her denial, but received a somewhat brusque refusal.
Recent searches through newspapers of the period, Hansard's reports of Parliamentary debates and Lady Astor's own papers have failed to bring to light any record of her remarks, if in fact she did make them.
What is beyond question is that virtually every British serviceman in Italy was convinced that she did, and regarded her alleged remarks as typical of the slurs being made against them back home. The accepted version is that she mde the remarks in the House of Commons, and that Winston Curchill only disowned her when the protestors from thr front became intense." (Martin Page, "Kiss Me Goodnight, Sergeant Major": The Songs and Ballads of World War II, Panther, 1973, pp. 192-193)

~Masato

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:54 PM

I been looking for my copy of "Kiss Me Goodnight, Sergeant Major" to quote that bit myself! (Though I'd probably have been too lazy to type it all out, I confess!)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:55 PM

Ooops, & forgot to say thanks for posting it, Masato

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:03 PM

Another legend bites the dust. Thanks, Masato.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Abby Sale
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:56 PM

The usual citation and the book referenced in the quoted quote below is:

Tune: "Lili Marleen," Norbert Schultze, 1937. Words: Anon.; "Collected for the Lili Marleen Club of Glasgow" by Seumas Mor Maceanruig (Hamish Henderson), ; _Ballads of World War II_, Caledonian Press, Glasgow, c1952.

(Great booklet, by the way)

I quote from r.m.f:

Subject: Re: Q: Banks of Sicily Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:01:07 GMT From: [e-mail] (Michael Roebuck) --------
The following quote courtesy of the late Hamish Imlach. Taken from the inside cover of his and Iain Mackintosh's German Album "A Man's a Man - Scottish Songs of War and Peace" of 1978, the quote is allegedly from an Interview by Hamish Henderson for Folk News in 1977:

(for the sake of clarity, I reproduce the entire quote. Please excuse the long post)

"I published the army songs at the suggestion of Hugh MacDiarmid. There were some of my own songs and some I'd collected. I made no differentiation between the two. It's a very old Scottish tradition. I didn't claim any of my songs.

At that time, you couldn't print a thing like that openly, and naturally I didn't want to expurge the songs. My own version of 'King Farouk and Queen Farida', for example, is printed without expurgation.

The most famous songs from the collection are "The D-Day Dodgers", inspired by an apocryphal remark supposed to have been made by Lady Astor, accusing the Eighth Army of getting out of participation in the Normandy invasions, and "The 51st Highland Division's Farewell to Sicily".

The 'D-Day Dodgers' is my own reshaping of verses that already were beginning to circulate. I just grouped them and gave it a shake. The origin of the phrase, D-Day Dodgers, always interested me. In the desert the folklore figure for the establishment was Lady Astor. There were these extraordinary ideas that circulated among the swaddies in Egypt that Lady Astor had said,for example, in the House of Commons that any Eighth Army swaddie coming back would have to wear a yellow armband to give warning to women in Britain that he had probably been in the Berka, the big brothel in Cairo.

"In a town called Cairo there's a street of shame Sharia-El-Berka is its f***ing name"

That's not my song. It's a bawdy song to the tune of "Abide With Me".

Anyway, In Italy the rumours circulated that Lady Astor had said, again in the House of Commons, that the troops in Italy, they were the D-Day Dodgers, the troops that hadn't come back to take part in the French invasion which, of course was very ironical because the troops in the Mediterranean area had been through as many as four D-Days of their own, if you count the great battle of Alamein, the invasion of Sicily, Salerno and Anzio beachhead - all these were in their own way D-Days.

Though I never checked up on it, my theory was that quite likely the originator of this phrase was Axis Sally, one of the enemy's Lord Haw-Haw-type broadcasters. It's just the sort of vicious slander you might expect from that source. I thought that at the time and I still think so.

When I heard a verse of 'D-Day Dodgers' to the 'Lili Marlene' tune, I thought: Now this is it, this is t h e thing, we are going to make a good song of this. I grouped the things together and the song as it is sung today is my song, but it already existed in fragmentary form before I used it.

At one time I was accused for being too sentimental in the last verse, the one about: "there stand the scattered crosses; there's some that have no name" but I don't think so. I think the juxtaposition of the Lady Astor verse and the verse at the end is powerful. That's my own view of my own song. I think it's artistically forceful and powerful."

==============================================================================

Later:

Perhaps written in November 1944 by Lance-Sergeant Harry Pynn of the Tank Rescue Section, 19 Army Fire Brigade, and quickly passed into oral tradition. The tune is. of course "Lili Marlene" composed by Norbert Shultze. See Roy Palmer's What a Lovely War" Sgt Pynn's widow sent Roy the story when he was compiling the book, and he has checked it out and found it to be true. Hamish: "I started to hear snippets of song to the tune of Lili Marlene, all with the chorus of 'We are the D-Day dodgers, Way out in Italy,' and I put this song together." It's not clear how much he wrote, and how much is the snippets he heard.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 May 02 - 08:29 PM

IAN ROBB has a wonderful version of "Kiss Me Goodnight Sgt. Major" on one of his Folk Legacy recordings from what I recall.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 03 May 02 - 12:25 PM

Great thread.

I note the use of "swaddies" rather than the now more usual "squaddies" in the quote from HH. So is swadddies the original (possibly Indian?) word which drifted into "squaddies" due to a bogus or "folk" etymology?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 03 May 02 - 01:18 PM

Swaddies is an English term - dating back to, at least the 18th Century - rather than Indian (although I can't back that up as I can't get to the OED, the company Library having closed) however, I'll try to search out an etymology when I get home (or on Tuesday, when I can get back into the library). Squaddie only dates from about the 1920s and derives in part from "swaddie" and part "squad", a formed body of men (as in drill squad, awkward squad etc.).

Regards

Walrus

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 02 - 03:04 PM

See also the recent discussion on Swaddies or Bastards in ...Farewell to Sicily.
Keith

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: The Walrus
Date: 03 May 02 - 07:48 PM

Of "Swaddie": I suspect (but can't definitively state, that Swaddie relates to "Swad"- "A silly foolish fellow; a country bumpkin...." ("Dictionary of Archaic Words" by J.O.Halliwell)

Regards

Walrus

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Abby Sale
Date: 03 May 02 - 09:54 PM

Or in Scotland, a turnip - which would be the same as a fool. (Comes from Swedish turnip variety.) That takes me on one of my favorite lines in all Scots song, "Pirn Ta'ed Loonie." The singer's true love went off with a "lantern chaffed [jawed] soldier with a face that was as yellow as a biled Swadish neep." Well, doesn't look that funny but it's hysterical in the song.

Subject: ADD: Onwards to the Po
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 01:42 PM

The version by Jim Dixon has most of the words usually remembered by the soldiers, especially the first five verses. In "Songs From The Front And Rear," by Anthony Hopkins, an anthology of Canadian Servicemen's songs from the Second World War, only these five verses are given (p. 110), each verse ending "We are the D-Day Dodgers, in sunny Italy."

A second song, "Onwards to the Po," also to the tune Lili Marlene, is drenched in cynicism and a sense of injustice. Canadian soldiers were involved heavily in the fighting. This song by an unknown Canadian soldier.

ONWARDS TO THE PO

1. We will debouch into the valley of the Po.
We will strike the Hun a mighty --- [fucking] blow.
And this we know, for Corps says so.
Onwards to Bologna, onwards to the Po.

2. We'll unleash the recce, we will let them go.
We know the mighty machine is very [fucking] slow.
But though they're lagging far behind,
We'll be there, to smash that line.
Onwards to Bologna, onwards to the Po.

3. Four British Div. is trailing in our wake,
We relieve the town that they're supposed to take.
They'll get the houses free of rent,
While we are living in our tent.
Onwards to Bologna, onwards to the Po.

Eleven Brigade is sitting on our right,
We really wonder if they're ever going to fight.
We have been waiting so goddamn long,
We just sat down, and wrote this song.
Onwards to Bologna, onwards to the Po.

From "Songs From the Front and Rear," Anthony Hopkins, 1979, p. 111, Hurtig Publishers, Edmonton, 192 pp.
Unleash the recce indirectly points at one of the armoured reconnaissance regiments of the Canadian Corps (Governor General's Horse Guards, Royal Canadian Dragoons, or the Princess Louise's Dragoon Guards).
The Fifth Canadian Armoured Division was known as the maroon (for the shoulder patches) machine, but the reference may be to the "war machine" generally.
Debouch generally means to move quickly out of a defile, but this favorite word of the generals is used with contempt, as the troops were supposed to be in Bologna by Christmas, 1944, but they remained mired in mud and in the mountains.
These comments extracted from the remarks of Anthony Hophins, p. 111.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: GUEST,Brian Hedges
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:55 PM

The song is also owned by the 1st Army who made the first real seaborne landings in North Africa and went on to be subsumed by the the 8th army for the invasion of Sicily and Italy. I have just attended the anuual 1st Army get together- my father was a member of the "battleaxe" divison. A few of those attending were humming the song!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 12:16 AM

G'day Brian,

Thanks for reviving this thread. Us Kiwi also have a share in the song. In fact, many of our WWII songs were recorded by "Les Cleveland and the D-Day Dodgers", back in the 50's. Les is still in the land of the living, though I haven't seen him in 40 years. I got Peter Fry to play the 'Dodgers" on our geriatric's request session on National Wireless on the eve of the D-Day 60th Anniversary. GREAT SONG - and sentiments.

New Zealand didn't have any land troops involved in D-Day, they'd had a bit of a thrashing at Casino, Sangro.. etc.. There were 2,000 or so in the air, or on the water - most of our Navy and Air Force were tied up in the Pacific or some reason.

Anyway... Thanks or the thread revival...

Dinkie Die - Sam

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'WE ARE THE D- DAY DODGERS
From: ced2
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 05:39 PM

Ist Army cerainly were in Italy, my dad was there. I have been singing D Day Dodgers for about 35years now. When I first learnt it and sang it for the benefit of my old man he told me of another song that the troops sang. This was largely, but not entirely, to the tune of Villikins and his Dinah. As this was some 25 years after the end of WW2 he could only remember a bit which went as follows:-

"Now you've all heard of Churchill and his famous cigar,
And no doubt you've shuftied the native bazzar,
But the story I'll tell you is really quite true,
How Field Marshall Rommell got knocked in the blue.
Too-ral-oo, too-ral-oo,
How Field Marshall Rommell got knocked in the blue.

The Highland Division went in with the steel..."

and he could not remember any more

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 07:39 PM

I was looking up "The Dodger Song" and came across the Traditional Ballad Index entry for "D-Day Dodgers." Most of the information has already been posted in this thread but here's the entry:

D-Day Dodgers, The

DESCRIPTION: "We're the D-Day Dodgers, out in Italy, Always on the vino, Always on the spree." The soldiers describe their allegedly safe and luxurious life: "Salerno, a holiday with pay," etc. They point out the nonsense of Lady Astor's remarks
AUTHOR: Hamish Henderson?
EARLIEST DATE:
KEYWORDS: war battle death
HISTORICAL REFERENCES:
July 10, 1943 - British and American troops attack Sicily (Messina falls on August 17, but the Germans have evacuated)
Sept 9, 1943 - Allies invade the Italian mainland
June 4, 1944 - Allies enter Rome
June 6, 1944 - D-Day. Invasion of Normandy begins
FOUND IN:
REFERENCES (3 citations):
Scott-BoA, pp. 358-359, "D-Day Dodgers" (1 text, 1 tune)
Silber-FSWB, p. 282, "The D-Day Dodgers" (1 text)
DT, DDAY*
Roud #10499
RECORDINGS:
Pete Seeger, "The D-Day Dodgers" (on PeteSeeger39)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Lili Marlene" (tune)
Notes: Lady Astor, an American-born member of the British parliament, was reported to have criticised the Allied armies in Italy as "D-Day Dodgers." In fact they were some of the hardest-suffering troops of the war; they fought well-entrenched Germans and never received enough equipment or reinforcements. The troops in Normandy were, comparatively, lucky; casualties were lighter and conditions were better.
This song is how the troops answered Lady Astor.
The Folksinger's Wordbook credits this to Hamish Henderson, which is possible, as he wrote other "anonymous" songs of World War II. But I know of no actual proof, and many authors treat the song as anonymous. - RBW
File: SBoA358

---

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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:57 PM

Another recording is on Ewan MacColl's LP "Bless 'em All and Other British Army Songs," Riverside, about 1959. Henderson's text appeared in his privately printed "Ballads of World War II" in 1947.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: Abby Sale
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 11:32 AM

Oh, Hamish is very clear in his writings that he did not originate the song or set it to "Lili Marlene." He certainly collected it, wrote some of the verses, edited and organized it to its most usual form.

Lest the generally vital & authoritative TBI be the last word on this thread, please see masato's post of 01 May 02, supra, re the slander on Lady Astor as well as my own post on the same day on Hamish's comments.

Subject: Other, unrelated slander
From: Abby Sale
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 11:42 AM

Speaking of slanders. Or facts...
                               Happy Aimee Semple McPherson's birthday!
                                  born October 9, 1890 (d9/27/1944)

(See Ballad of.)

This was one of the few Happy! entries I've gotten complaints about.

I got a message from one of her true believers about 4 years ago to please remove this slander. He felt she was a true Christian and all that talk was just slander from atheists who would destroy her good name.

I was slightly surprised that she still had loyal followers so many decades later. Faith, it seems, will often have the power to overcome facts and good judgement. Let's see... for whom should I vote in November?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 05:56 PM

I must write the words out properly for this, the one in full above has some mistakes, and the one in the DT is only half the verses.
Giok

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:28 AM

Link to robokopp leads to nowhere, since it changed its URL. I have it on my office PC, but I'm on sick leave at home.

Another link: http://www.squaddiesongs.com/songs/ddaydodgers.html with a jpeg of a 1944 paper, typed.

Maybe Swaddie is misinterpreted for Squaddie

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:33 AM

robokopp is kindly hosted by Musica
The song is here.
Bless Google.

Subject: Lyr Add: D-DAY DODGERS (from Hamish Henderson)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 11:28 AM

D-DAY DODGERS by Hamish Henderson

1. We're the D Day dodgers out in Italy
Always on the vino, always on the spree
Eighth army scroungers and our tanks
We live in Rome, among the yanks
We are the D day dodgers way out in Italy

2. We landed at Salerno a holiday with pay
The Gerries brought the band out to greet us on our way
Showed us the sights, and gave us tea
We all sang songs, the beer was free
To welcome D day dodgers to far off Italy

3. Naples and Casino were taken in our stride
We didn't go to fight there, we just went for the ride
Anzio and Sangro were just names,
We only went to look for dames.
Those artful D day dodgers in sunny Italy

4. On our way to Florence we had a lovely time
We run a bus from Rimini, right through the Gothic line
Then to Bologna we did go,
And after that we crossed the Po
Those awful D day dodgers way out in Italy

5. We hear the second army may soon go home on leave
Well after 6 months service, it's time for their reprieve
But we can carry on out here
Another two or three more years
Contented D day dodgers to stay in Italy

6. Once we heard a rumour that we were going home
Back to dear old Blighty, never more to roam
Then someone said, in France you'll fight
We said no fear we'll just sit tight
Those windy D day dodgers way out in Italy

7. Dear Lady Astor you think you're very hot
Standing on a platform, and talking tommy rot
You England's sweetheart, and her pride
We think your mouth's too bloody wide
That's from your D day dodgers in sunny Italy

8. Look around the mountains in the mud and rain
See the scattered crosses, there's some that have no name
Heartache and toil and suffering gone
The boys beneath them slumber on
Those are the D day dodgers who'll stay in Italy
Yes they're the D day dodgers who'll stay in Italy.


BTW Nancy Lady Astor was not the first elected woman MP, merely the first to take her seat, the first elected woman MP was Countess Markievicz

Giok

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 12:55 PM

Exactly which verses were written by Henderson is uncertain, probably the first five as posted by Jim Dixon back in '02.
Many variations have appeared, and so far I have not seen Henderson's words documented.
In the first verse, the word is 'skivers,' not scroungers.

Swaddie is an old army term, in use in the days of the Raj, but squaddie seems to have taken its place.

Troops in Italy had another reason for resentment. Forces were halted by mud and German positions in 1944, less than ten miles from Bologna. Armies in France could get leave to England, but troops in Italy, after years in the field, could not (Anthony Hopkins, in "Songs From the Front & Rear," Hurtig, 1979).

Subject: Lyr Add: THE 'D' DAY DODGERS
From: GUEST,Alec Somerville
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 04:01 PM

Have just been privileged to see a many folded, somewhat torn D-Day Dodgers - on cheap, wartime paper, NOT a carbon copy, typed with a jumpy manual machine. It was under the back flap of a WWII soldier's paybook. This man was from South Midlands, and had the Africa Star among other medals, so presumably was a Desert Rat. He is dead some years now. These are the words, untouched by any Hamish's; McColls, Seegers or others of that ilk. I am a 'over-100titles' published songwriter, and I can see where commercially, this would have been altered, esp re the metre. The last verse, if there was one, would have been below the last existing fold. I believe this to be absolutely genuine - who knows??? The MS??

THE 'D' DAY DODGERS

We are the D-Day Dodgers, out in Italy,
Always drinking Vino, always on the spree,
8th Army Skivvers and the Yanks,
78th Division and The Tanks,
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, the lads that D-Day Dodged.

We landed at Salerno, a holiday with pay,
Jerry brought the band out to cheer us on the way,
We all sang songs the beer was free,
We did have fun, Oh Lordy me,
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, the lads that D-Day Dodged.

Naples and Cassino were taken in our stride,
We didn't go to fight there, only for the ride,
Anzio and Sangro were all forlorn,
We didn't do a thing from dusk till dawn,
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, the lads that D-Day Dodged.

On the way to Florence we had a lovely time,
We ran a 'bus to Rimini, through the Gothic Line.
Soon to Bologna we will go,
When Jerry's gone beyond the River Po,
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, the lads that D-Day Dodged.

We hope the boys in France will soon get leave,
After six months overseas they should be relieved,
But we'd carry on for several years,
Because our wives don't shed too many tears,
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, the lads that D-Day Dodged.

Once we had the blue light that we were going home,
Back to dear old Blighty, never more to roam,
Then some said in France you'll fight,
We said not likely we will just sit tight,
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, the lads that D-Day Dodged.

Oh' Lady Astor, Listen please to us,
Don't stand on the platform and make a lot of fuss,
You are the Forces Sweetheart, the nation's pride,
But your lovely mouth is f(ar too?) wide.
For we are the D-Day Dodgers, the lads that D-Day Dodged.

NOTE   The last verse above is somewhat blurred and the paper torn off, there could have been more. I will supply a digital camera copy, readable, by email to anyone. I do not have the original.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: GUEST,Bill the sound
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 05:47 PM

Hamish Henderson did Write the lyrics I had the plesure of hearing him sing it in the Festival Theatre in Chamber St Edinburgh Some years ago. Sadly he is no longer with us(but he was one of Lady Astor's D Day Dodgers)
Bill the sound

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 06:15 PM

Hamish Henderson's own account:

"When I heard a verse of D.Day Dodgers to the Lili Marlene tune, I thought: Now this is it, this is the thing, we are going to make a good song of this. I grouped the things together and the song as it is sung today is my song, but it already existed in fragmentary form before I used it. At one time I was accused for being too sentimental in the last verse [...] but I don't think so. I think the juxtaposition of the Lady Astor verse and the verse at the end is powerful." (Hamish Henderson, Folk News No ?, repr. sleevenotes 'A Man's A Man')

The last verse he refers to is the one starting "Look around the mountains ...".

The version Alec Somerville gives above is substantially Hamish's version, apart from verse 5 which is not in any of the three versions I've got. It may still be Hamish's, though. The Lady Astor verse actually seems more tame than the version quoted by Jim Dixon in the first post.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 08:10 PM

The OED has "swoddy" going back to 1812, but notes "Now generally superseded by SQUADDIE" (for which the first quot. is 1933).

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: Less negativity, more nakedivity. :||

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 04:13 AM

The word which Hamish wrote was ' swaddy ' not swoddy, more often pronounced squaddie by modern singers.

eric

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: GUEST,Alec Somerville
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 12:32 PM

Not my intent to disparage Hamish Henderson - whoever wrote/collected/whatever - it is a damned good song and was needed. I have sung the 'usual' version scores of time in public performances, and so when I saw this (and it is slightly different - who mentioned 78th Divison before?Plus the refrain '....the Lads that D-Day Dodged') a thing carried around in the paybook of an 8th Army soldier at the time, not an academic excercise in 2006, I thought to share it with others. My belief in it being genuine is that it IS FROM THAT TIME, and not based on WHO wrote it. I don't know who wrote the song and I don't believe anyone else does, Maybe the typed copy I passed on to you to was one of the fragments kicking around then (see Henderson's own comments re this) - to me it doesn't matter - we are here to share information, surely.....

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: Abby Sale
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 03:08 PM

Alex: There is no question but that your find is important and much appreciated. It's clearly period and shows what at least one participant likely sang. It's not dated that I read and, you know, he might even have taken it from Hamish.

You do disparage Hamish but I don't hink intentionally or meanly. Keep in mind that Hamish was also a participant there and heard different fragments and versions of it. He was not merely a Revivalist singer or after-the-fact scholar.

When first published (Ballads of World War II) Hamish was still maximally "egalitarian" and took no credit for any of the songs in the booklet. Unfortunately. Some he wrote, some collected.

But one thing. It is literally impossible that he would have later claimed credit he didn't deserve. That he did not do.

As with any genuine folksong, there is no "authoritative" version. Even Hamish changed the words slightly from time to time. And so he should. Likely you've done that yourself for your own songs.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: GUEST,Alec Somerville
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 05:55 PM

Abby - Fair Comment! And as you suggest, I too have changed a word here or there...even been taken to Court by the late Woody Guthrie's publishers for a parody of This Land is Your Land - but that was looong ago and faar away....

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 06:29 PM

Abby, as far as I know it wasn't so much maximum egalitarianism that kept Hamish from publishing the Ballads under his own name, but some problem with the Censor. The collection was brought out by a (fictitious) 'Lili Marlene Club' because an 'open' publication would not have been allowed, and the author's name was given as 'Seumas Mor Maceanruig' (alias Hamish Henderson). So he DID claim authorship - in a roundabout way.

Another reason may have been that he had already published his collection of war poems, 'Elegies for the Dead of Cyrenaika', and didn't want the two publications to be too closely connected in the public mind.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 09:23 PM

Good show, Alec! Abby is absolutely right that Henderson's involvement has nothing to do with the significance of an unpublished text contemporaneous with the times. If changes were made to Henderson's song so soon after its composition, then the version you found is even more of a folk song. If Henderson polished up an original such as yours, that woul be even even more interesting.

Here is a stanza I haven't seen elsewhere. It appeared in one of Eric Partridge's books maybe 45 years ago:

We fought 'em on the mountains, we fought 'em on the plain,
We fought 'em in the sunshine, we fought 'em in the rain.
We didn't want to go and fight
In all the mud and all the shite,
We are the D-Day Dodgers, out here in Italy.

Pre-Henderson or inspired by him ? It doesn't matter very much.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 10:57 PM

Susanne, I don't really follow the logic. If he put his name on it, alias or no, then it's just not anonymous or pseudonominous (huh?).

Have another look at the booklet, if you will. It doesn't say '(alias Hamish Henderson).' It just says '(Hamish Henderson).'

Only two of the 23 songs are credited and those not as to author, but rather as to who gave him the song. The whole is presented as if collected from the various services- giving fairly equal treatment to the Italian and German songs. He even includes the original Lili Marleen.

I can at least say he treats equally anonamously a few songs I know to be not by him, one I know to be by him (and not bawdy) and D-Day which is, let's say, partly by him.

By "egalitarian" I was just being euphemistic for Communist. There was still the concept of avoiding personal ownership or copyright.

But I take your other points well. I never thought of his trying to separate this from his "serious" work, 'Cyrenaika.' Could be. I don't know when he found his life path but in 1948 he may well have thought drinking and singing folk song were lesser occupations than poetry. It was a grand thing for the world he soon straightened out on that score.

AND, I'm sure you're right about the difficulty of publishing "Ballads" any way except under-the-counter & privately. You're sure the Lili Marlene Club was entirely fictitious? I never asked him about it but I've always imagined three or four Edinburgh (or even Glasgow) veterans sitting around a pub singing bawdy WW II songs. Maybe even Sandy Bell's.

Abby

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 09:34 AM

Legman, who also knew Henderson, wrote that the "Lili Marleen Club" was "wholly fictitious."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 06:51 PM

That's my info as well.

As to your points concerning the booklet, Abby, I have to bow to your superior knowledge as I'm not lucky enough to own (or even have seen) it. However, if he put his name on it in brackets (did he really? In my post this was a mere comment by myself.) 'egalitarian' avoidance of copyright etc. doesn't seem to have been a major consideration. It certainly is an aspect that doesn't feature prominently in what I've read by Hamish (album sleevenotes, Alias MacAlias).

I found somewhere (would have to burrow for the exact words) that Hamish was told by someone who was important to him and to Scottish literature not to underrate his 'folk' writings, so there must have been an element of that. (Though that someone certainly wasn't Hugh MacDiarmid, from what I've read about his attitude to folklore and tradition!)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: Abby Sale
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:42 PM

He put his name a bit on the book but not on the songs. The book's in the other room so I want you should know I walked all the way in there just to be sure. The songs are obviously from different sources but none are attributed to any author. Not even Lili Marlene or Farewell to Sicily.

To be pickey on his name, the cover givesHamish Henderson's Ballads of... Collected for...

The face page has

Ballads of...
Collected by Seamas Mor Maceanruig
(Hamish Henderson)

First Collection

Issued by
The Lili...
To Members only


I'm just guessing a (if not the) point was a Soviet avoidence of copyright rules. This was 1948 and he could have eased up as time went on. Hamish was, of course, interested in the largely anonymous folk material, anyway. I knew him to harbor unending outrage when anyone (anyone) might falsely or even accidently claim authorship, discoveryship, etc to an item Hamish or someone else should have credit for.

Just for the sake of gossip of the deceased:

Luke Kelly told me he was devastated that someone who wrote liner notes on a Dubliners record erroneously claimed credit for Luke that should have gone to Hamish. Luke said he was innocent and had tried for years to get back in the furious Hamish's good graces. I never asked Hamish about that.

Hamish noted that Goldstein claimed to have discovered Lucy Stewart and others and had learned Tinker Cant before going up to meet her. Goldstein made these claims in my presence at his lecture in Philadelphia on his return. Hamish went on that he had given Goldstein Lucy's address and taught him a couple of phrases of Cant.

But Hamish claimed little. He was about the most honest man I ever met or heard of. Rather than claiming credit, my impression was that he was just plain excited about the stuff and wanted just to get that excitement across to others.

(Not to give the impression we were that close - I am honored to count myself among his, say, 100,000 closest friends and since we both were interested in folksong and lived for a while in the same city and University, we naturally had a certain amount of contact.)

I'm discouraged, if not actually surprised, to learn the Club was a fiction. Oh well.

Subject: RE: Origins: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 06:14 PM

Interesting topic for this week.

Subject: RE: Origins: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 07:23 PM

D- DAY DODGERS

THE D DAY DODGERS - IAN CAMPBELL FOLK GROUP    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKmzyIq1U10
More Recordings on YouTube    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=D-Day+Dodgers+

D-Day Dodgers from Wikipedia    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Day_Dodgers

Subject: RE: Origins: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: Charmion
Date: 11 Jun 22 - 06:02 PM

I learned this song when I was a little kid. That must have been highly amusing.

Subject: RE: Origins: We Are the D-Day Dodgers
From: Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 11 Jun 22 - 09:24 PM

I sang this in my high-chair when Charmion already had a seat at the table. We learned it from a Ewan MacColl recording of songs of the British Army that our mother would play frequently. Frankly, the squeaky pre-school rendition of the songs we produced must have been pretty cute.