Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink

Subject: lyrics required, Pretty Little Pink
From: GUEST,Frogmore
Date: 19 May 01 - 08:15 PM

I'm spending this part of my life taking care of aging parents, as many of you are. My dad is remembering songs he heard in the 20s and 30s. Tonight's memories were "Pretty Little Pink" (I recall something like (Fly around, my pretty little pink, fly around my baby....) I think Doc Watson recorded a version. The other is the more well known "Papa's gonna but you a mockingbird, golden ring, etc. I know there are many versions and would appreciate any input. Thank you very much.

---

Hush Little Baby in the DT.

Subject: Lyr Add: MY PRETTY LITTLE PINK (from Sandburg)
From: Stewie
Date: 19 May 01 - 08:47 PM

In respect of the first, you may be mixing a couple of songs here, albeit both use 'floaters'. Lyrics for a couple of versions of the song best known as 'Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss' may be found in this thread:

Click Here

'My Pretty Little Pink' does not seem to be in the DT or forum. The composite version in Sandburg's 'American Songbag' is:

MY PRETTY LITTLE PINK

My pretty little pink, I once did think
That you and I would marry
But now I've lost all hopes of you
And I have no time to tarry

I'll take my knapsack on my back
My rifle on my shoulder
And I'll march away to the Rio Grande
To view the forest over

Where coffee grows on white oak trees
And the river flows with brandy
Where the girls are sweet as sweet can be
And the boys like sugar candy

Do a forum search for the 'mockingbird' one and I am sure you will find plenty.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: lyrics required, Pretty Little Pink
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 May 04 - 08:56 PM

The Traditional Ballad Index has an interesting entry. Looks like there are several versions of this song.
-Joe Offer-

---

Little Pink

DESCRIPTION: "My pretty little Pink, I once did think, That you and I would marry." The singer complains that the girl has taken too long to make up her mind. In some versions he is a soldier who sets out to see the sights and fight in the Mexican War
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1914 (Brown)
KEYWORDS: courting love separation soldier floatingverses
FOUND IN: US(Ap,MW,SE,So)
REFERENCES (4 citations):
Sandburg, p. 166, "My Pretty Little Pink" (1 text, 1 tune)
Randolph 793, "Careless Love" (3 texts, 1 tune, but the "B" text belongs here if it belongs anywhere)
BrownIII 287, "Darling Little Pink" (1 text); also 78, "Coffee Grows on White Oak Trees" (7 texts plus 1 excerpt and mention of 1 more, but almost all mixed -- all except "H" have the "Coffee grows" stanza, but "A" also has verses from "Fly Around, My Pretty Little Miss"; "and "C" through "H" are mostly "Little Pink"; "B" is mixed with "Raccoon" or some such)
Hudson 85, p. 212, "Going to the Mexican War" (1 fragment, with the "Knapsack on my Shoulder" text and also the "Coffee Grows" stanza; there isn't much "Little Pink" in it, but it clearly goes with the Brown texts cited above)
Roud #735
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "We're Marching Down to Old Quebec" (floating verses)
File: San166

---

Go to the Ballad Search form
Go to the Ballad Index Instructions

The Ballad Index Copyright 2004 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.

Subject: RE: lyrics required, Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:37 PM

This is the text B of Randolph, # 793, "Careless Love." Is the first verse the only one, just searching for more verses?

Come my little pink and tell me what you think,
You're a long time making up your mind,
I truly understand that you love another man,
And folks tell me that your heart ain't mine.

I don't like to work, but I love to keep time
------------------
I do love to hear the dinner horn blow,
But I feel like I got no home.

Hand me down my suitcase and all my dirty clothes,
I'm a-going away for to stay,
And if she comes to see me while I'm gone
Just tell her I'm a-sleeping in the clay.

One white shirt is all I got,
One dollar is all I crave,
I didn't bring nothing to this here world,
And I won't take nothing to my grave.

Lance Howard, MO, 1923, Randolph, vol. 4, reprint p. 307.

The verse was used by Jean Ritchie as a chorus to "Over the River to Feed My Sheep." Posted Apr. 22, 2001 by Harpgirl, in thread 10474: Over the River .

My pretty Little Pink, I once did think
I never could do without you
Since I lost all hopes of you
I care very little about you.

Turtle Old Man posted the verse in thread 32248, in "Black Is the Color...?", 05-Aug-02, sung by Dellie Norton, NC, in the song on a cd in the set, "Far on the Mountains." Black is the color
(See "Black Is the Colour (2) in the DT for the song without this verse, as collected by Sharp).

My pretty little pink, so fare you well,
You've slighted me but i wish you well,
If never on earth I no more see,
I cain't slight you like you've slighted me.

Subject: RE: lyrics required, Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:56 PM

See "My Little Pink," by W. H. Delehanty, sheet music 1873, at American Memory. Sung by the Foy Sisters. Seems unrelated.

"I sent a note this morning, to my Melinda, dear,
And in it was a postscript, "Be sure to meet me here;" etc.
Spoken:

"Here comes my little pink of pets now, she's just the best bud in the bouquet basket,..."

Subject: RE: lyrics required, Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:29 PM

Unattributed "Mother Goose"

My little pink,
I suppose you think,
I cannot do without you,
I'll let you know
Before I go,
How little I care about you.

www.famous-quote-famous-quotes.com/nursery_rhymes/hey_rub-a-dub.html

"Pretty Little Pink" as posted above by Stewie appears in Newell, W. W., "Games and Songs of American Children," first published in 1883. No. 175, from East Tennessee. "The manner of playing has not been obtained."
The second verse is slightly different, and a few words vary in the other verses.

My pretty little pink, I once did think
That you and I would marry,
But now I've lost all hope of that,
I can no longer tarry.

I've got my knapsack on my back,
My musket on my shoulder,
To march away to Quebec town,
To be a gallant soldier.

Where coffee grows on a white-oak tree,
And the rivers flow with brandy,
Where the boys are like a lump of gold,
And the girls as sweet as candy.

"In another version, Mexico was substituted for Quebec."
From the Dover reprint with new introduction and Index by Carl Withers, copyright 1963. Still being reprinted.

Coffee on a white-oak tree??

Subject: RE: lyrics required, Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:34 PM

Newell gives a note, "J. Mooney, Jour. American Folk-Lore, H. 104.'

Subject: Lyr Add: FOUR IN THE MIDDLE
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:34 AM

Stewie's "Rio Grande" line brought to mind this old song chorus:

O, we're marching down to Dixie's land,
To Dixie's land, to Dixie's land
And our old flag shall wave to the Rio Grande
And treason shall go down!

From the Civil War song, "We're Marching Down to Dixie's Land." Lyric sheet at American Memory.

Lomax collected a play party song in Kingsville, Texas, 1939 Southern States Recording Trip which suggests that the 'coffee' verse in "Pretty Little Pink" is a floater:

Lyr. Add: FOUR IN THE MIDDLE
Sung by Ruby Wilson, Kingsville, TX

"Green coffee grows on white oak trees,
The river flows with brandy ose
Go choose the one to roam with you,
As sweet as striped candy ose.

Four in the middle and you can't get about
Four in the middle and you can't get about
Four in the middle
Swing your partner around you.

Six in the middle and time half out

Eight in the middle and swing

Ten in the middle and two goes out

American Memory, under "Four in the Middle." Audio.

Subject: RE: lyrics required, Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:51 AM

"Green Coffee Grows on White Oak Tops"
Play Party Game, music and description of game in Wolfe and Fullerton, "Together We Sing," All Grades (or Enlarged) Edition, Follett Pub. Co., p. 245. Collected in Tennessee.
Note: "This Tennessee folk song stems from a time when each cook bought green coffee beans and roasted them to suit her taste before roasting them. For many southern families during the Civil War, the only source for "coffee" was the acorns from the white oak."

Subject: RE: lyrics required, Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:53 AM

"before grinding them," not roasting.

Subject: RE: lyrics required, Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 May 04 - 01:07 AM

From "The Patriotic Contraband!" by A. Anderson

I den be dressed in Regimentals,
And a knapsack on my back,
With my musket at a shoulder arms,
Full up my habersack.
(From American Memory)

Subject: RE: lyrics required, Pretty Little Pink
From: Flash Company
Date: 26 May 04 - 10:57 AM

Comes up in a song called 'Weevily Wheat':-

My pretty little pink, suppose you think I care but little about you,
Let you know before I go I cannot live without you!

Charley he's a fine young man,
Charley he's a dandy
Loves to hug and kiss the girls
And feed them on sweet candy.

Probably know the rest if I think about it, heard from Guy Carawan.
Charley supposed to be Bonnie Prince of that ilk!

FC

Subject: RE: lyrics required, Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:33 AM

It is a floater not only in Weevily Wheat but others of the same type.
The DT version of "Weevily Wheat" has the 'coffee' verse. See threads on "Careless Love," Weevily threads, "Charlie, He's a Good Old Man," "Fly Around, my...," etc.

Anyone have the "Pretty Little Pink" verse in an earlier printing than the one from 1883 in Newell, "Games and Songs of American Children"?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Goose Gander
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 03:26 PM

My pretty little pink I once did think,
That you and I would marry,
But now I've lost all hope of that,
I can no longer tarry.

I've got my knapsack on my back,
My musket on my shoulder,
To march away to Mexico,
To be a gallant soldier.

Where coffee grows on a white oak tree,
And the rivers flow with brandy,
Where the boys are like a lump of gold,
And the girls as sweet as candy.

As collected and printed by James Mooney, "Folklore of the Carolina Mountains," The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 2, No. 5 (April-June, 1889), p.104

Mooney printed these lyrics as an example of a children's "song game": "One song of this kind was obtained from a lady living on Oconaluftee River, who had sung it when a child at her old home near Murphy, in the extreme southeastern corner of the state . . . . The lady had forgotten the details of the game, but remembered that one girl, presumably the "pretty little pink," stood in the centre, while the others marched around her singing the song. She said it had a very pretty tune, which she had forgotten . . . . The lady stated, however, that as she had known it the children said "Quebec Town" instead of "Mexico," which might indicate that the first part of the song goes back as far as the French and Indian war." p.104

Of course, the Quebec reference could also date the song to the American War of Indepedence or the War of 1812. And as bizarre as it seems, Alex Cox in his new film offers evidence that the United States planned an invasion of Canada in the inter-war decades of the twentieth century.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Goose Gander
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 03:57 PM

Not that there is any connection between a nineteenth century children's song and twentieth century war plans (!), but it is interesting that Canada has been a target for so long!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 05:32 PM

While Yella {yellow} may have been the most common 19th century referent for a light skinned African American, in my opinion {and I have no proof of this} "my pretty little pink" originally referred to a African American female who is very light skinned.

The song may have later become a children's game in which "pink" referred to the color of clothing that a girl had on.

I'm wondering if there are any verses that refer to "my pretty little {other color}.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Goose Gander
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 10:08 PM

Have you found any versions of 'pretty little pink' (or related) among the African-American children's rhymes you collect?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 07:25 AM

Michael Morris, my comment about Pretty little Pink games was in reference to your 08 Dec 06 - 03:26 post.

If there were examples of this singing game in which the "pretty little pink" was changed to "pretty little blue" or "pretty little green" etc, then maybe "pink" didn't refer to light skin color. Or maybe it had referred to light skin color at one time, but had changed to become a referent for the color of the featured participant's clothing.

**

I remember my mother reciting the first verse of "My Pretty Little Pink" to my sisters and me in the 1950s [or at least someone recited it to me as I remembered it from my childhood when I first read in in Thomas W Talley's 1922 collection "Negro Folk Rhymes".

I don't remember my mother doing any actions associated with that rhyme. It was recited as a poem.   

**

For what it's worth, I've collected no children's rhymes from the 1950s to date that contain the line "my pretty little pink" or any other parts of the rhyme that you included in your Dec 06 - 03:26 post.

However, some folks might think that the "Where the boys are like a lump of gold, And the girls as sweet as candy" lines live on in these lines:

"Boys are rotten Just like cotton/Girls are handy Just like candy."
It's possible that the "boys are like a lump of gold" line etc may be at least one of the sources for "boys are rotten...", but I'm not certain of that.

Here's a common given version of the contemporary handclap rhyme containing that "boys are rotten" line:

My mother. Your mother
live across the street
eighteen nineteen Blueberry Street
Every night they have a fight
And this is what they said tonight
Boys are rotten
made out of cotton.
Girls are dandy
made out of candy
Girls go to Mars
To be superstars
Boys go to Jupiter
to get more stupider
Boys drink beer
To be unfair
Girls drink Pepsi
To get more sexy.
-Yammieshya P. {age 13 years} & Sadiqia P. {age 11 years}; [Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, 2005

**

Also, Michael, it may be of interest to you and others that I've found that circle singing games- marching or otherwise- appear to have been relegated to a class room activity directed by pre-school teachers and other adults for pre-school age children. This appears to be the case among African American children in my area. And I dare say it's true elsewhere in the USA and maybe not just among African American children.

Stella Ola Ola/Slap Billy Ola is a big exception to my observation that elementary school age children {5-12 years old} don't play singing or chanting circle games.

Another big exception to this statement is "Going to Kentucky". That 'show me your motion' circle game is played in the traditional 'ring game with one person in the middle' mode. Another contemporary rhyme in that same traditional ring game mode is the contemporary version of 'Little Sally Walker {was walkin down the street}.

For more information on these examples and for additional examples, visit the hyperlink presented above. You might also want to visit my website http://www.cocojams.com/

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 07:36 AM

Also, with regard to 'pink' as a referent for a female who is of African American/non African American ancestry and who has very light skin, I was thinking of the 1949 movie Pinky.

Genders OnLine Journal - Presenting innovative theories in art, literature, history, music, TV and film. Issue 40; 2004 "Passing For Horror; Race, Fear, and Elia Kazan's Pinky By Miriam J Petty http://www.genders.org/g40/g40_petty.txt presents an interesting commentary about that movie. Here's a very brief excerpt from that essay:

"Film genres routinely mix and evolve over time in ways hat change our expectations of them, and change the way that we as audiences read and receive them. At times, however, the mixing of genres can function to focus our attention on certain film texts, and certain critical moments within these texts....

In this essay, I use the 1949 Hollywood film Pinky to suggest the ways in which social problem films dealing with the phenomenon of racial "passing" (instances in which light-skinned black characters "pretend" to be whites) use themes and motifs commonly found in horror films...

A post-World War II offering from the Fox studio, Pinky represents part of what Christopher Jones calls the "culmination of the trend toward black realism in the American cinema of the forties" (110) in 1949. As Jones observes, this year saw the release of films like Lost Boundaries (also a cinematic account of a "black-as-white" passing story), Stanley Kramer's post-war drama Home of the Brave, and the film adaptation of William Faulkner's Intruder in the Dust. Pinky's place as the most popular and critically acclaimed of these films dealing substantially with "blacks at home in the United States, enduring the problems of civilian life" (Jones 110-111) suggests the significance of examining the currents of fear and repression underlying its presentation of racial realities."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 07:51 AM

Btw, here's Thomas W. Talley's version of "Pretty Little Pink" [originally published in 1922, but this is from the 1966 Kennikat edition, p 127

PRETTY LITTLE PINK
My pretty liddle Pink,
I once did think,
Dat we-uns sho' would marry;
But I'se done give up,
Hain't got no hope,
I hain
t got no time to tarry.
I'll drink coffee dat flows
From oaks dat grows,
'Long de river dat flows wid brandy.

-snip-

Note that the word "pink" is capitalized, as it might be if it was a referent for a person or a person's name.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 08:35 AM

Btw2, Tally also includes a separate song that contains a variant of the "Charley is a dandy" line.

Here's the first two verses of that 4 verse song:

HE LOVES SUGAR AND TEA
Mistah Buster, he loves sugar an' tea.
Mistah Buster, he loves candy
Mistah Buster, he's a Jim DandyA
He can swing dem gals so handy.

Charlie's up an' Charlie's down
Charlie's fine and dandt.
Ev'ry time he goes to town,
He gits dem gals stick candy.

-snip-

Fwiw, the "He loves sugar and tea" phrase lives on in an [African American] children's handclap rhymes though I usually found it given as "I love coffee/I love tea".

Also fwiw, the only references to skin color or race that I've found in contemporary African American children's rhymes are from the the "I Love Coffee/I Love Tea" rhymes. Here's a common version of that rhyme:

I Love Coffee. I Love Tea {Example #3} Handclap rhyme
I love coffee
I love tea
I love a Black boy and he loves me
so step back White boy
you don't shine
I'mma get a Black boy to beat your behind

I met my boyfriend at the candy store.
He bought me ice-cream, he bought me cake,
he brought me home with a belly-ache.
Mamma, Mamma, I feel sick.
Call the doctor - quick, quick, quick.
Doctor, Doctor, will I die?
Count to five and you'll be alive.
1-2-3-4-5. I'm alive.
-African American girls, Pittsburgh, PA, collected late 1980s to date

Note: I received a version of "I love coffee" from a Latina girl who remembered reciting it in New York City, late 1980s. Her version said "I like a colored boy". I also have found several versions of "I love coffee" online from early 2000s which contain this
"I like a colored boy" line. Given the fact that African Americans haven't used the referent "Colored" for ourselves since the 1970s or so, I am presuming that at least some of those persons who posted this version of the "I love coffee" rhyme online are White.

Incidentally, I've never found a version with the line "I love a white boy and he loves me/so step back Black boy". My position is that these versions originated with Black children. My sense is that they reflect the racial tensions that may have occurred [or may still occur] in {newly?} integrated schools or other social settings frequented by Black children and non-Black children.

**

Also, the "Mama Mama I feel sick" line, probably comes from the [at least 19th century] slavery rhyme: "Grandma Grandma sick in bed/sent for the doctor and the doctor said/get up Grandma/You ain't sick/all you need is a hickory stick.

The "Doctor Doctor will I die?" line is probably also from the old "Waterflower" {"Water fall"?} rhyme.

One version of this children's ring game [with one person in the center] is included in Altona Trent John's 1944 book "Playsongs of the Deep South."

WATER-FLOWER
Water-flower, water-flower,
Growing up so tall,
All the young ladies must surely, surely die;
All except Miss 'Lindy Watkins,
She is everywhere,-
The white folks say, the white folks say,
Turn your back and tell your beau's name.

Doctor, Doctor can you tell
What will make poor 'Lindy well?
She is sick and 'bout to die,
That will make poor Johnnie cry!

Marry, marry, marry, quick!
'Lindy, you are just love sick!

Johnnie is a ver' nice man,
Comes to the door with hat in hand,
Pulls off his gloves and show his rings,
'Morrow is the wedding-day.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Goose Gander
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 02:27 PM

Azizi -
Thank you for all that, lots of stuff I didn't know! I have another version of Pretty Little Pink sung unaccompanied on a cassette put out by the Augusta Heritage Center, I'll dig it up, transcribe it and post it here.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 06:14 PM

My Pretty (Darling)(Little) Pink-My Pretty Little Miss seem to have popped up as a play party song sometime after the Civil War, and collected floaters.
So far, no evidence of earlier origin.

Mexico, Quebec, Rio Grande, New Orleans and Dixie seem to be the places 'marched off to'. It is widespread, from the East Coast to Texas (Owens, "Texas Folk Songs") if not farther.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 06:15 PM

In Kentucky, in my family, this game-song was called, "Old King Cole was a Jolly Old Soul- goes like this:

Old King Cole was a jolly old soul
And that you may know by his larnin'-
He eat corn bread till his head turned red,
And his old yeller cap needs darnin'.

My pretty little pink, I once did think
That I and you would marry.
But now I've lost all hopes of you
And I ain't got long to tarry.

I'll take my knapsack on my back,
My musket on my shoulder-
I'll march away to Mexico,
Enlist and be a soldier.

Where coffee grows on the whiteoak trees
And the rivers they run brandy;
Where the boys are pure as a lump of gold
And the girls are sweet as candy.

You may-go on and I'll turn back
To the place where we first parted;
We'll open up the ring and choose a couple in-
And we hope they'll come free-hearted.
    © 1953, Jean Ritchie Geordie Music Publishing Co.
       (from Balis Ritchie, Jean's fath

My dad had another "little miss" song, like this:

Where are you goin my pretty little miss,
Where are you goin my daisy:?
Well...if I don't get me a young man soon,
I think I'm goin crazy.

Cho: Hi rinktum a dinktum a diddle diddle dum
    Hi rinktum a dinktum a doodie (repeat these 2 lines)

How old are you my pretty little miss-
How old are you my honey?
Well...if I don't die of a broken heart
I'll be sixteen next Sunday.

Then there are several more verses. Would this be the one you're looking for, Frogmore?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 07:32 PM

Pretty little Miss (see thread 16280, linked above), likely the Frogmore request- separate play song or variant? I dunno.

Kytrad, I haven't seen "Old King Cole" brought into the mix before, or with the lines you post. Thanks for posting it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Richie
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 08:24 PM

The group of songs/titles connected here are large. The folk index puts most of them under the "Western Country/Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss" title. "Coffee Grows on White Oak Trees" is part of this group.

The "Pretty Little Pink" songs are related to "We're Marching to Quebec (sometimes New Orleans)".

The "Wheavily Wheat" songs mention Charlie as in "Charley He's a Good Old Boy/Man"

Then there's "Four in the Middle" a mid-west variant that is also related to "Jim Along Joe"

Richie

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Richie
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:44 PM

Jean's dad sang the variant: "How Old Are You (My Pretty Little Miss)?" which usually has the "I'll be sixteen next Sunday" line.

This song group has a very similar melody to "Shady Grove" and also surprisingly "Black Jack Davy/David.

Here are some names:
My Pretty Little Pink; Little Pink; All Around Those Pretty Little Pinks; Long the Days of Sorrows; Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss/Pink; We're Marching Down to Old Quebec; Charley He's a Good Old Boy/Man; Quadrille in D and A; Charlie's Neat (and Charlie's Sweet); Twistification; Western Country; Susannah Gal; Blue Eyed Gal; Charlie, He's My Darling; Four in the Middle; Coffee Grows on White Oak Trees; Weevily Wheat;

Here are some related songs:
Say, Darling, Say; Where Are You Going; Washing Mama's Dishes; Black Jack Davy (Tune); Little Betty Ann; I Want to Go Back to Georgia; Jaybird Died with the Whooping Cough; Shady Grove (tune); Daisy; How Old Are You (My Pretty Little Miss)?; Leroy Troy's Rabbit Dog; Jim Along Josie; Over the Water/River to Charlie;

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: PRETTY LITTLE PINK (from Doc Watson)
From: Richie
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 10:25 PM

Here's a version from my friend Doc Watson with some great lyrics:

Lry add: PRETTY LITTLE PINK
Doc Watson with Clarence Ashley

CHORUS:
Fly all around my pretty little pink,
Fly all around my baby,
You slighted me and broke my heart,
You almost drove me crazy.

VERSE 1:
When I was a little boy,
A-playin' in the ditches,
Now I am a big grown man,
Wearing Pappy's britches.

VERSE 2:
Yonder stands my own true love,
You reckon how I know,
Tell her by her under clothes,
Hangin' down so low.

VERSE 3:
Every time that I go home,
I do the best to please her,
The more I try the worse she gets,
Durned if I don't leave her.

VERSE 4:
Yonder stands a pretty little girl,
She's all dressed in red,
I looked down and I seen her feet,
And I wished my wife was dead.

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: PRETTY LITTLE PINK (from Bradley Kincaid)
From: Goose Gander
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 11:09 PM

Floating verses galore in this version from Bradley Kincaid . . . .

PRETTY LITTLE PINK

Lor, Lor, my pretty little Pink
Lor, Lor, I say
Lor, Lor, my pretty little Pink
I'm going to stay away

Cheeks as red as a red, red rose
Her eyes as a diamond brown
I'm going to see my pretty little miss
Before the sun goes down

Fly around my pretty little miss
Fly around my daisy
Fly around my pretty little miss
You almost drive me crazy

I reckon you think my pretty little miss
That I can't live without you
But I'll let you know before I go
That I care very little about you

It's rings upon my true love's hands
Shines so bright like gold
Gonna see my pretty little miss
Before it rains or snows

When I was up in the field of work
I sat down and cried
Studying about my blue eyed girl
Thought to my God I'd die

Fly around me pretty little miss
Fly around my dandy
Fly around my pretty little miss
I don't want none of your candy

Every time I go that road
It looks so dark and cloudy
Every time I see that girl
I always tell her howdy

Coffee grows on white oak trees
The river flows with brandy
Rocks on the hills all covered with gold
And the girls all sweeter than candy

Fly around my pretty little miss
Fly around my daisy
Fly around me pretty little miss
You almost drive me crazy

I'll put my knapsack on my back
My rifle on my shoulder
I'll march away to Spartanburg
And there I'll be a soldier

Charlie is a nice young man
Charley is a dandy
Every time he goes to town
He buys the ladies candy

I don't want none of your weazely wheat
I don't wnat none of your barley
Want some flour in half an hour
To bake a cake for Charlie

Every time I go that road
It looks so dark and hazy
Every time I see that girl
She almost drives me crazy

I asked that girl to marry me
And what did she say?
She said that she would marry me
Before the break of day

Source: Bradley Kincaid, Favorite Old-Time Songs and Mountain Ballads Book 2, 1929, p. 16-17.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Goose Gander
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 12:04 PM

Here's a few more . . . .


Pretty Little Pink As sung by O.B. Campbell, Vinita, Oklahoma on August 9, 1971, from the Max Hunter collection.


Relating to the Black Jack Davey connection mentioned by Ritchie, here's a verse from West Plains, Missouri . . . .

"Come with me, my pretty little pink
Come with me, my honey
Come with me to a distant land
Where we will never need for money
Where we will never need for money"

Source:
"Five Old-Country Ballads," The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 25, No. 96. (Apr. - Jun., 1912), p. 174


MARCHING DOWN TO OLD QUEBEC

We're marching down to old Quebec
Whar th' drums is loudly beatin'
Th' 'Merican boys hev won th' day
An' th' British are retreatin'

Th' war's all over an' we'll turn back
To th' place whar we first started
We'll open up th' ring an' receive a couple in
To relieve th' brokenn-hearted

My purty leetle pink I used to think
I couldn't live without you
But I'll let you know before I go
Thet I don't keer much about you

I'll put my knapsack on my back
My rifle on my shoulder
An' I'll march away to New Orleans
An' jine a band o' soldiers.

Notes:
"The game is played very much like "The Miller Boy," but whenever the words "an' we'll turn back" are sung each couple does an about-face as quickly as possible. Two regularly appointed judges decide which couple was the slowest in making the turn, and this couple is turned out of the circle. At the words "we'll open up th' ring" the circle is broken for a moment, and the boy and girl outside rush to get in before it can be closed against them."

Source:
Vance Randolph, "The Ozark Play-Party," The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 42, No. 165. (Jul. - Sep., 1929), p. 206-207

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 01:34 PM

The "Marching Down to Old Quebec" is an interesting version.
"Five Old-Country Ballads" was submitted by George Lyman Kittredge to JAFL, based on texts collected by H. M. Belden, some of many not included in his book "Ballads and Songs Collected by the Missouri Folk-Lore Society." The book included only three of the singing games and two of the play party songs.

(I have finally succumbed and joined the American Folklore Society and paid the $15 extra for JSTOR access to JAFL).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 06:04 PM

Michael, your last verse of Bradley Kincaid's version (of several songs/games combined)was sung a bit differently at home:

O I asked that girl to marry me,
Y'reckon what she said?
She said she would not marry me
If everbody else 'uz dead.

I think that everybody who sings these songs "improves" on them, to make them funnier maybe, or to make them his/her own. But we separated them this way: "Old King Cole," was definitely a singing-game- it was called "a gettin-up song" because the boys were too bashful to ask girls to dance without help. SO, one brave couple promenaded round the room singing and when they reached the last verse, "we'll open up the ring and choose a couple in," another boy (or girl) had got up the nerve to get a partner, and they joined in the promenading and singing, until there were enough couples to play a regular game like, "Goin to Boston," or, "Over the River, Charlie."

"Shady Grove," on the other had, we sang as a sort of love song, not raucously, but with a more quiet gaiety, savoring the lovely tune.
And not to let go of it too soon, we sang every floating verse we knew to make it last longer!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Richie
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 09:35 PM

Some versions of Shady Grove are minor and some major. We've sung both vocal parts at the same time (with two singers of course) in my band. It kinda works.

I alos like switching from major to minor after each verse/chorus.

I play the minor version in Em and also Dm like Doc Watson does. I play the major version faster, more like a breakdown.

IMHO the minor version does not closely resemble "Pretty Little Pink" songs but the major version does.

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: PRETTY LITTLE PINK (from Tenn.Ernie Ford)
From: Richie
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 10:50 PM

Here's a bit of Tennessee Ernie Ford's version. Basically he used
Bradley Kincaid's lyrics. I only could listen to the first part on-line. If anyone has the complete lyrics, please post them.

Pretty Little Pink- Tennessee Ernie Ford
Standin' In The Need Of Prayer CD Pickwick SPC-3222 1972

Fiddle

Her cheeks are red as a red, red rose
Her eyes are diamond brown
I'm going to see my pretty little gal
Before the sun goes down

Fly around my pretty little pink
Fly around my daisy
Fly around my pretty little pink
You almost drive me crazy

I reckon you think my pretty little pink
That I can't live without you
But I'll let you know before I go
That I care very little about you

Fly around my pretty little pink
Fly around my daisy
Fly around my pretty little pink
You almost drive me crazy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Richie
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 11:11 PM

Here's some info from Mike Yeats' 'Far in the Mountains' notes:

Western Country
(Played on the fiddle by Sam Connor and the banjo by Dent Wimmer at Dent's home in Floyd, Floyd County, 8.8.79)

Sam called this Little Pigee from his verse:

Run the old hog over the fence
And the little pigs through the cracks.

whilst Dent uses the title Western Country from the verse:

When I was in the western country,
Where the weather was so dry.
The sun came out and froze me,
Suzannah don't you cry.

Other Appalachian musicians call it either Fly Around My Pretty Little Pink or Blue Eyes Run Me Crazy because of another common verse:

Fly around my pretty little pink,
Fly around my daisy.
Fly around my pretty little pink,
Your blue eyes run me crazy.

Kentucky banjo player Lee Sexton plays a good, if short, version on the album Mountain Music of Kentucky (Smithsonian Folkways SFCD 40077), and the North Carolina banjo-player and singer Frank Proffitt can be heard on Appleseed APR CD 1036; while Hobart Smith of Virginia played a stunning version on the piano (Rounder CD 1702). The Bogtrotters from Galax, VA, recorded it for the Library of Congress and The Hillbillies, a '20s stringband also from the area around Galax, called it Blue-Eyed Girl on their 1926 recording (Vocalion 5017) which has been reissued on Document DOCD-8039. They also included the 'little pigee' verse in their 1925 recording of Whoa' Mule (Okeh 40376) which is available on the same Document CD. A fine version from Frank Blevins and his Pilot Mountaineers has been reissued on Yazoo CD 2028, while Bradley Kincaid's Pretty Little Pink, reissued on Yazoo CD 2051, contains a number of similar verses.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Goose Gander
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 11:54 PM

Kytrad -

Thank you for shining a little light on where all the different Pretty Little Pinks come from, and also for your memories of singing games.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Richie
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 07:59 AM

Here's an early source:

The True Mother Goose - Songs for the Nursery, Or, Mother Goose's Melodies for Children. Notes and Pictures by Blanche McManus. Published by Lamson, Wolffe and Co., Boston. 1895.


My little pink I suppose you think,
I cannot do with out you.
I will let you know before I go,
How little I care about you.

Richie

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: GUEST,Elettra
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 05:42 PM

From my mother, who heard it from her aunt in the twenties in rural Alabama. She always called it "Bonnie Sweet Prince Charlie":

Charlie's neat and Charlie's sweet
My Charlie is a dandy
Every time he comes to town
He steals my sugar candy.

Over the river to feed my sheep
Over the river, Charlie
Over the river to grind my wheat
And measure out my barley.

Don't want your sheep, don't want your wheat
Nor do I want your barley
But I'll take a pound of the best you've got
To bake a cake for Charlie.

Repeat Vs. 1

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 09:29 PM

Thank you, Michael Morris.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 09:46 PM

Elettra, a version of your song was posted in thread 10474: Over the River

"Over the River to Feed My Sheep," Ritchie Family version, was published, with score, in Jean Ritchie, 1940, "Celebration of Life," p. 11, Geordie Music Pub.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Richie
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 09:58 PM

Prince Charles Edward Stewart, 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' 1720-1788
It's likely the "Charlie" was Prince Charles Edward Stewart 1720-1788.
This give the connection back to England.

Prince Charles Edward Stewart, 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' 1720-1788

Charles Edward Stewart, the true heir to the throne of Great Britain to his supporters and the "Young Pretender" to his enemies, was born in Rome in December 1720.
His grandfather, the Catholic James VII of Scotland and II of England had been ousted in favour of the Protestant William of Orange in the so-called Glorious Revolution of 1688, and had fled to France. After his death, Jacobites (as followers of the Stewart dynasty were called) recognised his son James Francis Edward as James VIII and III, and attempts were made to recover his throne in 1715 and 1719. Both were unsuccessful despite some assistance from France and Spain, whose own interests on a wider European stage favoured the return of the Stewart monarchy.

The above was taken from here:
http://www.visitscotland.com/library/princecharlie

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Goose Gander
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 11:16 PM

W.K. McNeil discussed this song in Southern Mountain Folksongs . . .

"Although most folksong scholars agree that this song dates back only to the Mexican War (1846-1848), the earliest reported text, from eastern Tennessee in 1883, contains the following lyrics . . . (he cites stanza posted by Q above)

"This reference to Quebec suggests the possibility that the song originated during the French and Indian War (1754-1763), or about a century earlier than is generally believed. Some other texts mention New Orleans and thus make a War of 1812 origin possible. Is is, of course, also possible that the song predates all three wars and harks back to an as yet undiscovered urform. This seems to be what Ben Botkin is suggesting in The American Play-Party song, p.71, when he says the song 'presents a curious example of a dance song which has been converted into a soldiers' marching song, with Mexican War references, and then back into dance usage, war references and all."

McNeil printed a text plus tune from Doc Hopkins of Harlan County, Kentucky, taken from a tape he made in the late 1960s or early 1970s. Hopkins was a performer on the WLS National Barn Dance radio program in Chicago and performed in medicine shows previous to that. According to McNeil, he learned Pretty Little Pink from Bradley Kincaid who in turn learned it from fellow performer Scott Wiseman. The Hopkins version is shortened from the Kincaid version above, only having about half of the verses.

Source:
W.K. McNeil, Southern Mountain Folksongs (Little Rock, Arkansas: August House Publishers, Inc., 1993), p.150-153

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 01:06 AM

Looking at the speculation above, how much of the imagery in these songs is the result of a combination of fanciful historical indoctrination of children by their homesick immigrant parents and the teaching of unrelated singing games by the teachers in the new homestead lands?

In the period 1850-1900, myriad poems extolling the deeds of old forbears were written and printed in American and Canadian books, magazines, and newspapers. Scots and English were prone to infect their children, and show their superiority to others in their new home, with poetry and songs, newly composed or paraphrased.
Old book stores always have volumes like this one, "Selections from Scottish Canadian Poets, being a Collection of the Best Poetry written by Scotsmen and their Descendants in the Dominion of Canada," pub. in Toronto, 1900. Of course it is some of the worst poetry ever published, but the books sold in good numbers.
A few quotes:

"Forward! see Scotland's gallant sons
Dash on to meet the foe,
Their strong right hand grasps Freedom's sword
And Freedom guides the blow;
Their bows are bent, their swords are keen," etc. etc.

"Then let us cheer his honoured name,
Sae dear to Scotland and to fame,
And on our feet, wi' loud acclaim,
Cry, "Hip, hurrah for Robin!"

"Then sing us to-night from the old Scottish songs-
The songs which our mothers would hear
In the old cottage homes, that were covered with thatch,
In a land that will ever be dear."

"Tonight we lift the minstrel harp,
With tears of sorrow wet,
And strike with reverent hand its chords
To wailings of regret;" etc.

"To chase in flight, by Carron winding slender,
The mail-clad legions of imperial Rome."

"Though haughty Edward looked in scorn
Upon the field of Bannockburn,
In terror thence he fled forlorn,
A long time ago."

Taking their parents stories based on fading memories of their homeland, made vivid through new books and papers like this one (which were also published for young people), children in schools of homestead settlements might entwine stories of ancient deeds and the singing games of the teachers into new ones that speak of olden times, but belong to a folk literature not from the 'old country' but newly born in the the new land.

Should we interpret these songs as survivals, or products of their time (1850-1900)? Just something I have wondered about but I don't think that there is a clear answer.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: sian, west wales
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 03:59 AM

From "The Scots Musical Museum: 1787 - 1803", James Johnson & Robert Burns ...

Heres to thy health my bonie lass

Written for this Work by Robt Burns
Tune, Loggan burn

Here's to thy health, my bonie lass
Gude night and joy be wi' thee:
I'll come nae mair to thy bower-door,
To tell thee that I loe thee.
O dinna think my pretty pink,
But I can live without thee:
I vow and swear, I dinna care
How lang ye look about ye.

Thou'rt ay fae free informing
Thou hast nae mind to marry.
I'll be as free informing thee,
Nae time hae I to tarry.
I ken thy friends try ilka means
Frae wedlock to delay thee;
Depending on some higher chance,
But fortune may betray thee.

I ken they scorn my low estate,
But that does never grieve me;
For I'm as free as any he,
Sma' siller will relieve me.
I'll count my health my greatest wealth
Sae lang as I'll enjoy it:
I'll fear nae scant, I'll bode nae want
As lang's I get employment.

But far off fowls hae feathers fair,
And ay until ye try them:
Tho' they seem fair, still have a care,
They may prove as bad as I am.
But at twel at night, when the moon shines bright,
My dear, I'll come & see thee;
For the man that loves his mistress weel
Nae travel makes him weary.


sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:26 AM

I thought that was by the Psychedelic Furs?

... ah...

... I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:27 AM

Q, in your 13 Dec 06 - 01:06 post you wrote "Looking at the speculation above, how much of the imagery in these songs is the result of a commbination of fanciful historical indoctrination of children by their homesick immigrant parents and the teaching of unrelated singing games by the teachers in the new homestead lands?"

Those are interesting points. I also wonder how much of the lyrics and performance activities of singing games were taught & passed on to children as a means of informally teaching & reinforcing such values as self-confidence and the importance of respecting and looking out for everyone in your group {which we now call demonstrating good team work skills}.

I also wonder how many of these games were used to teach & reinforce survival skills to African American and, possibly non-African American. Examples of the survival skills I have in mind are being alert & aware and thinking fast at all times.

Specifically, I'm thinking of 'show me your motion' ring {circle}games with one alternating center person as examples of games which taught the value that everyone in the group is important. According to Bess Jones in the book "Step It Down" that is co-authored by Bess Lomax-Hawes, traditionally these 'plays' did not end until every child in the group had a chance to be the center person in the ring.

Also, in these show me your motion ring games, since players never knew when they would be called to go in the center, they had to always be alert & prepared to immediately step into the middle of the ring. And they had to have a motion ready to do when it came time for that. And since motions shouldn't be repeated [at least that's the case now in the rare occassions that children play these games], players had to have a back up plan in case someone chose the movement that they were going to do. That's what I mean about thinking fast.

Though it's not in the 'Pretty Little Pink family' of rhymes, "Johnny Cuckoo" is one of the best examples I know of 19th century African American children's rhymes whose lyrics seek to conteract the rejection & negative valuations that Black children were bound to receive.

JOHNNY CUCKOO
Group                Here comes one Johnny Cuckoo,
                Cuckoo, Cuckoo.
                Here comes one Johnny Cuckoo,
                on a cold and stormy night.

Group                What did you come for,
                come for, come for?
                What did you come for,
                on a cold and stormy night?

Soloist #1         I come to be a soldier,
                soldier, soldier.
                I come to be a soldier,
                on a cold an stormy night.

Group                You are too black and dirty,
                dirty, dirty.
                You are too black and dirty
                on a cold and stormy night.

Soloist #1        I'm just as good as you are
                you are, you are.
                I'm just as good as you are
                on a cold and stormy night.

(repeat entire song with soloist #2 etc.)

"Johnny Cuckoo" is also included in a four CD collection of Southern folk songs (Alan Lomax, "Sounds of the South" Disc 4 Atlantic Recording Corp, 1993).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:29 AM

Sorry about that formatting.

Let me also note that Johnny Cuckoo is not a ring game but a line game.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Goose Gander
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 10:53 AM

"Looking at the speculation above, how much of the imagery in these songs is the result of a combination of fanciful historical indoctrination of children by their homesick immigrant parents and the teaching of unrelated singing games by the teachers in the new homestead lands?"

"Scots and English were prone to infect their children, and show their superiority to others in their new home, with poetry and songs, newly composed or paraphrased."

Q, all due respect, but your comments seem unfair and unnecessarily hostile. Some of your phrases - "...indoctrination of children..."; "Scots and English were prone to infect their children, and show their superiority to others in their new homes..."

Where to begin . . . .

Indoctrinate? Infect? Show me a culture - anytime, anyplace, anywhere - where parents do not seek to inculcate values to their children. Show me the culture that does not respect itself enough to ensure that such values support that culture.

What is the option, self-denigration? To quote the historian Eugene Genovese, " . . . self-hatred, no matter how flamboyantly presented as a high-minded seach for a more progressive identity, is no more attractive in white Southerners than in jews, blacks, Sicilians, or anyone else."

As to the roles of schools in spreading singing games, that is an interesting question and certainly worthy of study. But let's be specific - we are talking about a cluster of lyrics, melodies and games that for convenience we lump together as 'Pretty Little Pink.' You may notice that the places we find this song (North Carolina, east Tennessee, etc.) in the mid to late nineteenth century were not particularly known for high rates of compulsary education. So whatever the role of schoolteachers in spreading these songs, they probably were not the primary means of transmission.

Now Q, I'm sure I've jumped the gun and have been likewise unfair and unnecessarily hostile to you. Not my intention, but there's no way I could have made my point (at least right now, the way I'm feeling) without taking this tone.

Finally, Sian of West Wales, thank you for the Burns verses . . .

"O dinna think my pretty pink,
But I can live without thee:
I vow and swear, I dinna care
How lang ye look about ye."

Wonder if there's more?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 03:48 PM

Michael, my comments re Scots and English were meant tongue-in-cheek, but seem to have met a chip-on-the-shoulder response.

Alberta, Saskatchewan and other provinces in Canada had many homesteaders who came for the new land and a new beginning, Scots and English prominent among them. I picked Scots and English because their poems and songs, made in Canada, are most available because they are in English, and were printed by the publishers 'back east'.

There were Irish, too, settling at Cork (vanished settlement) and elsewhere in Alberta, but I have no knowledge of locally grown culture.

East-central Alberta was settled by Ukrainians, their onion-topped churches are a notable feature of the landscape. They have a lively culture. Poles also homesteaded in distinct locations.
Several settlements are French- not people from Quebec, but immigrants direct from France, who have little knowledge of that province except what they get on French Service Radio Canada broadcasts and telecasts.

Azizi, you may be aware of the African-American settlements in Alberta and Saskatchewan, 1000 coming from Oklahoma in 1911 (google for Amber Valley AB and Maidstone SK). Some early White settlers from the United States also tended to homestead in specific areas, one around High River. The book by Thomson, "Blacks in Deep Snow," Dent Pub., is interesting if superficial.

An area in southern Alberta is known for its Mormon settlements, and a well-known LDS temple at Cardston (many bought their spreads, so not homesteaders). There used to be schoolyard fights in Raymond area schools between Mormon and non-Mormon kids, the latter a minority- I wonder if any collections were made of singing games in this area. Incidentally, the first organized rodeo (stampede) in Canada took place here in 1902.

I could go on- even a small Icelandic settlement, which produced a well-known poet.

The same is true for the western states and their homesteaders.

My point, which I thought was obvious, is that some of the singing and play party games, which seem to have sprung up in the period 1850-1900, although mentioning themes of their forbears, developed in North American schoolyards and community halls and should not be considered direct descendants of old country forms.
------------------------

Thanks, Sian, for "Here's to Thy Health, My Bonnie Lass." Burn's poems are in a bookcase within arm's reach of my computer, and I am somewhat red-faced for not knowing that poem. Now, I recall a Burn's poem about barley which may fit here. I think that the line "Charlie's sweet and Charlie's neat" in a Jean Ritchie version only coincidentally echos Burn's "O Mally's Meek, Mally's Sweet." (We had a Cairn Terrier that we named Mallie, from this poem. Perhaps I shouldn't mention this; Michael will take offence).
---------------------

Azizi, "Johnny Cuckoo" reminded me of some of the contrabandist songs of the 1860's, when Blacks took up rifles and fought with the Unionists. Some of the same thought. Contrabandist songs are printed in several places- has any comprehensive collection been published?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Goose Gander
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:29 PM

"My point, which I thought was obvious, is that some of the singing and play party games, which seem to have sprung up in the period 1850-1900, although mentioning themes of their forbears, developed in North American schoolyards and community halls and should not be considered direct descendants of old country forms."

Fair enough, though it brings up the question of what exactly are 'direct descendants of old country forms.' Songs, ballads, singing games, melodies, etc. if they are alive at all and not museum pieces exist and have existed in a state of ongoing evolution. Recall Kytrad's comments that perhaps "everybody who sings these songs 'improves' on them, to make them funnier maybe, or to make them his/her own." Without a narrative to hold it together, Pretty Little Pink / Fly Around / Charlie lend themselves to improvisation and constant reworking. So there is no clear division between 'survivals' and 'products of the times', it's a this-and-that-at-the-same-time rather than an either/or.

And I did miss the tone of your post and I apologize, but that's what happens when I post first thing in the morning without taking a minute to reflect . . . .

Finally, bringing the discussion back to Pretty Little Pink, the verses from Burns (which I also have within arm's reach but never noticed) do seem to be the earliest form, much earlier than the late nineteenth century versions we've discussed above.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: sian, west wales
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:35 PM

Of course, it may well be that Burns 'lifted' them from 'tradition'; I don't think people were particularly bothered by that sort of thing at the time. I have the Songbag and actually marked it with a slip of paper with the ref: to Burns on it, so the connection certainly struck me on first reading.

Michael, I'm not sure what you're looking for with, " Wonder if there's more?"

??

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Goose Gander
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:36 PM

I just wondered if, along with the "pretty pink" and the various Charlie stanzas associated with this song, there were more phrases or verses from the various Pretty Little Pinks that have their source on the other side of the Atlantic (whether from Burns or elsewhere).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:48 PM

All of these phrases are in very simple songs or games, and many of the rhymes obvious;the source need not be unitary, but the result of independent invention.
It would take much detective work to demonstrate a relationship between some of them, even if pieces needed to show continuity were not missing.
If a parent, knowing Burns, referred to his daughter as 'pretty pink,' and in the playground the girl substituted that for 'pretty little miss' in order for it to rhyme with 'stink' (or whatever), should that be regarded as a survival?
The ubiquity of Mother Goose- and Lavender's Blue- type books must also be regarded as a contributing factor.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Richie
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 09:29 PM

Q,

I'd say there seems to be a connection or connections with England. The reference to Charlie "Bonnie Sweet Prince Charlie" and the Burns lines both indicate overseas transmission. Since many of the immigrants remaiened isolated in the Appalchians, folk songs could be found there that had entirely disappeared from their mother country.

The Burns isn't just the name, 'pretty pink' but is clearly related both in form and content:

"O dinna think my pretty pink,
But I can live without thee:
I vow and swear, I dinna care
How lang ye look about ye."

I'd like to find more examples also.

Richie

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 12:20 AM

Not just the Appalachians; the Bonnie Prince Charlie" stuff is well-known in the Maritimes of Canada, and many people here have some version of "Burns, the Complete Poems." Robbie Burns Day is big here, with the piped haggis, the speeches and the recitations, even here in western Canada.

Continuity of transmission is another matter altogether.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Goose Gander
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 12:31 AM

As Richie pointed out, there does seem to be more than a coincidental relationship between the Burns verse and Pretty Little Pink . . . .

From Burns:
"O dinna think my pretty pink,
But I can live without thee:
I vow and swear, I dinna care
How lang ye look about ye."

From Bradley Kincaid:
"I reckon you think my pretty little miss
That I can't live without you
But I'll let you know before I go
That I care very little about you"

From Mother Goose:
"My little pink I suppose you think,
I cannot do with out you.
I will let you know before I go,
How little I care about you."

From Randolph:
"My purty leetle pink I used to think
I couldn't live without you
But I'll let you know before I go
Thet I don't keer much about you"

There is also an apparent cross-Atlantic connection with the Charlie / Weavily Wheat verses.

From Kincaid:
"Charlie is a nice young man
Charley is a dandy
Every time he goes to town
He buys the ladies candy

I don't want none of your weazely wheat
I don't wnat none of your barley
Want some flour in half an hour
To bake a cake for Charlie"

Verses like these are commonly found in North America. Vance Randolph printed eight fragments of similiar verses under the title Weavily Wheat. 156 examples of the form can found in the Roud index #729. Of these, some are Scottish - here are a few references:

"O'er the Water to Charlie"
Buchan, Ancient Ballads and Songs 2 (1828 / 1875) pp.136-137

"Owre the Water to Torry"
Greig-Duncan 8 p.260 (version a)

"O'er the Water to Charlie"
Greig-Duncan Collection 1 pp.344-345 (version a)

"O'er the Water to Charlie"
Johnson, Scots Musical Museum 2 p.195 (No.187)

"O'er the Water to Charlie"
Hogg, Jacobite Relics of Scotland 2 pp.76-77

So between the Pretty Little Pink verses and the Charlie verses, I think it's clear there is some connection to British, or more specifically Scottish, sources. The exact nature of the relationship would be very difficult (if not impossible) to tease out, but obviously (to me, anyway) the antecedents of the song we are discussing go back to the British Isles.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: sian, west wales
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:32 AM

I don't know if there's any trail to follow via 'pink'. I've always assumed (and I think I'm correct in thinking) that this refers to the flower, 'the pink', as in 'clove pink'. This article is interesting and refers to it as a medieval flower, so perhaps that's the poetry which should be searched?

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Richie
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:43 AM

Although there may be a connection with the flower (to the word and color pink) I don't think any of the above verses infer the flower.

Traditionally pink is a color symbolic of the female gender. I think that this "pink" is a reference to woman/girl/miss.

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: PRETTY LITTLE PINK (from Mellinger Henry)
From: Richie
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:04 AM

Below is Pretty Little Pink from Mellinger Henry. There's no melody provided and the verses seem to be floaters. The second is usually found in "Black is the color" while the fith seem to be from Dark Holler." The meter and cadence are different suggesting a different song with Pretty Little Pink as the title (from the first floating verse). There are 11 complete verse and one partial. I've shown the first five:

Pretty Little Pink- Mellinger Henry
More Songs from the Southern Highlands
Obtained from the singing of Austin Harmon from Varnell, Georgia 1929

My pretty little pink
So fare you well
You slighted me,
But I wish you well.

The prettiest face,
And the meanest hand
I love the ground
Where on she stands.

I saw you the other day,
You looked so loving
And you were so gay,
You fooled and trifled you time away.

If on earth
No more shall see,
I can't serve you
As you serve me.

I'd rather build my home
On some icy hill
Where the sun refuses to shine-
A trusting girl is hard to find.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:08 AM

Sian, I'm "tickled pink" * that you posted the fact that you always thought that "pink" in "Pretty Little Pink" was a referent for a particular type of flower.

It makes sense that "pretty pink" could have referred to that particular type of flower, or to any type of flower which is pink.

In posts on this thread I've suggested that among 19th century {or earlier} African Americans, "Pink" could have been a referent for a mixed race African American woman who had very light skin color.

It's possible that "pink" in that song could have different meanings for different populations. It's also possible that pink can mean something entirely different for different populations. And it's possible that "pink' could have multiple meanings for the same population or populations. One of those meanings could be the same as the "standard meaning" and another meaning [or other meanings] could be different than the "standard meaning".

All this to say that in my opinion, "Pink" ** in this song could mean a flower and [at the same time] it could also mean a woman who is light skinned, especially among those persons {African Americans and non-African Americans} who were familiar with pink as a skin color referent or nickname for a light skinned person.


* Actually, I don't get pink when I'm tickled, but that phrase points out the use of color words that may or may not be taken literally.

** Note the capitalization of "Pink" means or implies that "Pink" is a substitution for a person's [in this case, a woman's] name. However, I'm backing down from the statement that I made earlier in this discussion, that this capitalization means or implies that the person was referring to someone called "Pinky/Pinkie" and that someone had to be a person of very light complexion. Perhaps it does, and perhaps it does not. Be that as it may or may not be, I continue to promote the theory [and am I the only one who has suggested this theory?!] that among 19th century African Americans, "Pink" may mean a woman of very fair complexion.

In that sense, this "Pretty Little Pink" verse can be placed among a 'fairly' large category of pre-emancipation African American rhymes that mention the skin complexion [and particularly the light skin complexion] of women who are courted [and in some cases lost].

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:51 AM

This is what I get for rushing to post...

Here's what I meant to write in the fourth "paragraph" of my 14 Dec 06 - 07:08 AM post:

It's possible that "pink" in that song could have the same meaning for different populations. It's also possible that pink can mean something entirely different for different populations. And it's possible that "pink' could have multiple meanings for the same population or populations. One of those meanings could be the same as the "standard meaning" and another meaning [or other meanings] could be different than the "standard meaning".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: sian, west wales
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:58 AM

I'm with you on this one Azizi. And, Richie, I do actually think that the Burns reference is the flower - but that there is also a direct connection between the flower's colour and a 'blushing' young girl. There is a very specific tradition in Wales of overtly referring to people - particularly youths and young women - in botanical terms. When a song refers to 'blodau mis Mai' (flowers of May) it is referring to children born 'out of wedlock'. In one song, a girl is referred to as a stalk of wheat (OK - sounds a lot better in Welsh. Honest.) Interestingly, garden flowers very rarely appear in Welsh songs - wild flowers and crops are more usual - and I've always meant to start a comparison with English folk songs to see if there's any statistical differences ...

Anyhooooo, it would be interesting to hear from anyone familiar with the writing styles of the period in Scotland to see if the Welsh practice holds true there.

Oh - and there would also be the question of 'pink' as connected with 'girlie-ness'. When did they start painting the Ladies Washrooms pink? (God, that drives me mad!) Presumably, there was a time before everything girlish had to be pink. In Wales (and elsewhere) feminine pulchritude was a matter of being - sorry for this, Azizi! - 'gwyn' or 'white'. 'Gwyn' also means 'blessed' and 'fair'. I was once also told that to have white skin or white/fair hands meant that you were rich enough not to have to work hard out-of-doors for your living and was therefore class-related (not race-related).

So it may be that the flower connection is earlier than the pink=girl connection ... ?

Just floating an idea ...

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 01:03 PM

Hmmm- I have always related pink in the rhymes to flower color and comparison with a flower.

(I hope no one tries to identify the flower! Of course several could be referred to depending on locality and preference.)
'Pink' in North American gardens refers to Dianthus, that pretty little pink beloved of gardeners, but this is not universal.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: sian, west wales
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 01:07 PM

See my link at 04:32, Q. I was surprised by the 'Trivia' entry, but it's food for thought. Pinks are Dianthus here as well.

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 01:25 PM

I think mostly of the 'maiden pink,' and similar small types that seldom grow taller that one foot, and are most effective massed in a bed.

Several species being native to the UK and Europe, their cultivation is probably 'lost in antiquity.' (I have just checked my Sanders' Encyclopaedia of Gardening, so have instantly become knowledgeable).

Digression- I wonder if it has any use in old medicine?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:03 PM

Getting back to the subject- the song- I'd just add the Ritchie version to Michael Morris's comparisons of the "never could do without you" verse:

My pretty little pink, I once did think
I never could do without you-
Since I've lost all hopes of you
I care very little about you.

Which adds a "nose in the air" meaning, which always caused a smile amongst the menfolks.

AND: Of course the pink is a flower- at home our reference was the mountain pink,or starflower, left on high places by "the glacier," the old folks told us, very rare and lovely, blooms throughout springtime. Also, it rhymes with, "think!"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 08:40 PM

More digression- Always a source of confusion and amusement, local flower names are meaningless to those from outside the area of reference. I have no idea what plant a 'mountain pink or starflower' would be in your area. It could be one of the alpine Dianthus, or it could be something quite different.
I remember a thread about flowers in a Carter Family song- never decided.

Although the last ice sheet glaciation did not extend into the Appalachians, the colder climate moved plant species south; with the end of the ice age, some plants that preferred cool climate moved 'up the mountain,' staying with the conditions they preferred (or so some believe).

Subject: Lyr Add: BLACK JACK DAVY (trad. Missouri)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 11:29 PM

Lyr. Add: BLACK JACK DAVY

Come go with me, my pretty little pink,
Come go with me, my honey;
Come go with me to a distant land
Where we never will need for money,
Where we never will need for money.

The river slow, the heather bright,
The sky is low and hazy,
But ere the morning dawns again
You'll be gone with Black Jack Davy,
You'll be gone with Black Jack Davy.

Go bring me out my high heel shoes
That's made of Spanish leather,
And I will wear them out today
For flowers at the distant heather,
For flowers at the distant heather.

Go bring me out my milk-white horse
Which rides so light and steady;
I'll ride all day and I'll ride all night
Till I overtake my lady.

D. Hogan, West Plains, MO, High School, who "got it from an old lady."
"Five Old-Country Ballads," Kittredge, JAFL 25, 1912, pp. 171-177.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: sian, west wales
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:04 AM

kytrad, interesting that yours,the Burns song and SOME others have the 'nose in the air' suggestion. I've always liked the Burns one for the story of a girl who's looking for a 'better' match, egged on by her friends. And the faithful, poorer lover who, in the first verse, tells her, "Go - no skin off my nose." (Always a good ploy!)

Also reminds me of "My Poor Brown Coat and Me" ... but in that case he does find another and she marries 'bad'. (No pinks in that one, though.)

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 11:24 AM

The way I remember it was in a song KYTRAD (used to? still does?) sing that also had a verse:
"Charley's neat and Charley's sweet
And Charley, he's a dandy.
Charley, he's the very one
That stole my striped(pron: streye-ped) candy."
in addition to the verse she gave you above. I believe it was part of a group of songs she called "Play-party songs". As there was no dancing allowed, these songs had certain movement "games" that one did with a partner, but it was NOT dancing. Right.....Tw

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Goose Gander
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 11:36 AM

Because of all the floating Charlie / Weevily Wheat verses that turn up in Pretty Little Pink, I've started a thread for Weevily Wheat that hopefully will lead us to a better understanding of how the two are related.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Goose Gander
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 04:09 AM

This text comes from a manuscript that came out of an estate sale in southern Illinois. Based upon the songs, I'd say it dates to the mid-1930s.

PRETTY LITTLE PINK

Oh fly around my pretty little pink
Fly around my daisy
Fly around my pretty little pink
You almost drive me crazy.

Her cheeks as red as a red, red rose
Her eyes as a diamond brown
I'm going to see my pretty little pink
Before the sun goes down.

I reckon you think my pretty little miss
That I can't live without you
But I'll let you know before I go
That I care very little about you.

Every time I go that road
It looks so dark and cloudy
Every time I see that girl
I always tell her 'How Dye'.

Coffee grows on white oak trees
The river flows with brandy
Rocks on the hills all covered with gold
And the girls all sweeter than candy.

I'll put my knapsack on my back
My rifle on my shoulder
I'll march away to Mexico
And there I'll be a soldier.

Now looking at 100 WLS Barn Dance Favorites (M.M. Cole Publishing Co., Chicago, Illinois, 1935), it seems that this text is identical to that printed on p. 59, "introduced by Bradley Kincaid," though - interestingly (to me, anyway) - it is rather different than the text printed in Kincaid's Favorite Old-Time Songs and Mountain Ballads Book 2, (1929).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 02:53 PM

Sara Martin (born 1884) and Richard M. Jones (born about 1890) copyrighted the song "Late Last Night." The lyrics they submitted to the Library Of Congress had "(The oldest blues in the world)" written at the bottom, and included

"Now come my little pink, come tell me what you think
You're long time making up your mind
I distinctly understand that you love another one
So how can your heart be mine"

and lyrics about taking morphine and, in contrast to when she was a good little girl, having neither dimes nor friends. "Late Last Night" used a simple IV-IV-I-I-V-V-I-I chord progression, a la "The Bucket's Got A Hole In It." If Martin and Jones were right in implying that this was a chord progression used very early on in blues, then the way, say, Bob Pratcher (born about 1893) sang "Got the blues, got the blues, can't be satisfied" in "If It's All Night Long" with a similar progression might represent some of the earliest blues in style. (Folklorist Howard Odum collected the lyrics "I got the blues and can't be satisfied/Brown-skin woman cause of it all/Lawd, Lawd, Lawd" in a three-lines-per-stanza song before 1909.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 03:13 PM

P.S. Clarence Ashley was born in 1895; compare "Baby All Night Long" by the Blue Ridge Mountain Entertainers, which mentions "got the... blues" and "if I had listened to what mama said" and "I ain't got no kin," to the Pratcher brothers' "If It's All Night Long," and "Late Last Night," and "The Bucket's Got A Hole In It" (which is a relative of "Keep A Knockin'," which we know predates 1909 as a relative of "Take A One On Me").

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 09:55 AM

I'm going to commit the crime of posting to the thread
without having read all of the posts. I just can't
take the time right now. So sue me!

A "pink" is a certain small flower of the rose family, my Beautiful
Wife (a dedicated rose grower) told me years ago.

Accordingly, I've for many years understood that the singer
is indulging in a pet name for his intended, analogous to
calling her his little violet or little daisy. No racial meaning at all, is my understanding.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 10:02 AM

A floater that is apropos here:

Sugar grows on a white oak tree
The branches flow in brandy!
The world is full of two* dollar bills
The girls are sweeter than candy!

*sometimes "three dollar bills".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pretty Little Pink
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 12:38 PM

"Sugar grows on a white oak tree" Or coffee grows on "white folks' trees" (collected by Thomas Talley, who was born in 1870 and seemed to favor songs of the 1880s). Coffee grows on white oak tress was around by 1896. Money grows on white oak trees was around by 1911. 'Lasses grows on the white oak tree was mentioned in a 1949 book. The black songwriter Clarence Todd (born 1897) came up with a "Love Grows On The White Oak Tree," based on the folk song, that was recorded by many black and white pop, jazz, and jive artists during the '30s-'40s.