BS: vegetarians ?

Subject: vegetarians ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 May 01 - 09:34 PM

i have recently decided to cut out/ down the amount of meat i eat, i wondered if any of you were vegies ?.ps i decided this for heath reasons, too many chemicals in meat etc.john

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 01 - 09:41 PM

I'm a veggie. Since I was fifteen. (That was thirty years ago.) Good luck with it!

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 May 01 - 09:42 PM

Too many chemicals in meat?

Have you seen half the crap they spray on veg these days?!?!

Basically we're not really safe eating ANYTHING!

LOL!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 01 - 09:48 PM

Yeah, Clinton. But you can get breast cancer from eating meat. (Yes, I mean you.) Do you have any idea how much estrogen you're putting in your body when you eat commercial grade meat, dairy and eggs? (As opposed to organic.) Bet you didn't know that men can get breast cancer.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 May 01 - 09:56 PM

Well, tits aside, I'll consider being a vegetarian when Rib-Eyes start growing on plants.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Marion
Date: 27 May 01 - 10:07 PM

John, I'm vegan.

Is that Hull as in Ottawa-Hull?

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 May 01 - 10:14 PM

CarolC... as a matter of fact... I'm well aware...

But ya know what... in the immortal words of Sean Connery in The Untouchables, "What the hell, ya gotta die of something."

I applaud people who make choices such as these for themselves... to go veg, or to quit smoking or drinking...

Me... I'll stop all those things, and all my other 'bad' habits on the day I die... and I'll die just as happy as they will...

;-)

Side bar... I hear from Sue on The Sunday Night Sex Show that a mans semen tastes better if he's a vegetarian... so guys... it might be worth it after all eh!! LOL!!

Hell... make it taste like Tullamore Dew and I'll drink it myself!!

LOL!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST,Dancing Mom
Date: 27 May 01 - 10:19 PM

Was happily vegetarian for two years. Had to modify my stance a little bit when I realized my family was making a beeline for Burger King when I was out of the house.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 01 - 10:27 PM

Hey, Spaw... why don't you run that idea past some genetic engineers? I bet they'd be happy to develop some for you.

You're probably right Clinton. Even though I don't eat meat, I think if people want to eat meat, they should.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 May 01 - 10:40 PM

Cool CarolC...

Want my greenbeans?

LOL!!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 May 01 - 11:26 PM

John in Hull, I've been one for about 20 years, although I do fish sometimes and chicken about one or twice a year. And, I cannot stand tofu!LOL

My advice? Take some cooking classes, if you can; or, get a couple of good cookbooks. There is so much out there now, it is much moreacceptable and dishes are much more creative than they used to be. Heck, I can walk in a restaurant in Casper, Wyoming now and actually see specific vegetarian dishes, which was not so about 8 years ago when I first came back here.

If you find yourself craving protein, try a smoothie shake with protein powder; eat nuts; or try one of the great products that are out now that are all vegetable protein, yet look and smell like bacon, hotdogs, chicken and other things you may find yourself missing.

Clinton, I don't know about meat-eating and the taste of semen, but smoking and drinking certainly gives it a horribly bitter taste; nothing to come back for! (pun intended!)

kat

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 May 01 - 11:37 PM

Ya... Sue talked about that too Kat... she's a very reliable source, and one of the coolest old ladies I've ever seen!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 May 01 - 02:29 AM

I was veggie for about 5 years, worked in a veggie restaurant, have an uncle who is a farmer so have seen both social and 'political' reasons for giving up meat.

I go parading with a giant. This giant has crow wings for hair. Some vegetarians complained, saying we were cruel to kill crows. We explained that the crow wings came from a bean farm nearby, and that the crows were shot because they ruined the bean plants. The beans in this field were then sold to a supermarket chain who used them in their range of vegetarian meals. [I then pointed out to these vegetarians that the shoes they were wearing were leather and where did they think that came from? We've not been bothered by them since.]

So nothing, unless you can guarantee it from seed to stomach is truly 'cruelty free'.

As for dairy products - cheese, unless it's a vegetable rennet, is the only one that involves any animal body part (generated from a dead animal as opposed to a live one), in fact, if you have ever heard a cow that has not been milked, it is quite obvious that it is in pain and that milking it would be a blessing. The only dodgy area here is in the removal of the calf too early. Sensible farmers don't do this. And if the demand is there, the milk supply will remain. The stimulation of the milking machine or human milker will ensure the flow continues. This is true of humans too - you can breast feed for 2 years, as long as the demand and stimulation is there!

Oh, and I gave up being veggie because I couldn't give up sausages - ironic when you think of how much actual meat is in the average sausage!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 01 - 02:52 AM

I don't know, LtS, it doesn't look to me like anyone in this discussion is using cruelty to animals as a reason to not eat meat. I can't find any references to it, anyway.

My reason for not eating meat is that I don't like it. I consider it a bonus that I'm not putting the hormones and antibiotics into my body that are given to livestock. I use dairy products and eggs, but I only use organic dairy and eggs.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Big Tim
Date: 28 May 01 - 03:35 AM

I became a vegetarian in 1988, converted by the dedicated example of my teenage daughters of whom I am very proud, for moral reasons. It's wrong to kill animals, a la Linda McCartney. I don't miss meat at all, in fact the smell of it makes me sick and anyway who can tell the taste difference between a meat burger and a vegeburger, certainly not my brother who gets fed them when he visits us and never knows the difference!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Owlkat
Date: 28 May 01 - 03:50 AM

Here's my two cents on vegeterianism. I'm allergic to pollens and dust. I've discovered that if I eat very little meat or dairy from about May to September, the reactions I used to have to endure for three months now only last two or three weeks. My theory is that the cumulative attacks on my immune system caused by natural allergens (dust, smoke, pollens) and chemical ones (animal growth hormone, steroids, antibiotics, pesticides in animal feed) give me headaches, congestion, and digestive upset. In short, the more vegan I go, the better I feel, and, incidentally, the less sick I get. I've found that meat from ptarmigan, moose, bear, mountain sheep, caribou, and deer don't cause me anywhere near the grief that meat from domestic sources do. I must admint, living in the Yukon, I probably have more access to these meats than, say, someone in Philedelphia.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST,Billy the Bus
Date: 28 May 01 - 05:35 AM

G'day,

Glad to see Mudcat as mad as ever in it's topic threads.

John, if I were in Hull (UK?) I'd probably cut down on the meat input, with all the "Mad Cow" and "Foot & Mouth" that's round your neck of the woods.

Howsomever.....

LtS - as to your sausage desire - and the lack of meat in 'em.

I recently discovered an item of information that scares the hell out of me. Apparently you can now by "vegetarian" haggis in Scotland.

The world has gone mad...

Cheers - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 28 May 01 - 07:16 AM

thanks for all replies,yes i am in uk.i didnt know there was a hull in usa .i heard somewhere that macdonalds were cooking chips in beef fat.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: John P
Date: 28 May 01 - 08:39 AM

I became a vegetarian when I was 20 years old (I'm 46 now) because I was learning meditation from an Indian guru who strongly suggested it. I tried it for three months and then ate meat again for a couple of weeks for the comparison. I found that I felt a lot better if I didn't eat meat, so it was an easy choice. It also cut my food budget by about 25 per cent. Since I was a poor college student that was a big inducement. I have since added geo-political, ecological, and cruelty to animals reasons for avoiding meat. And no, my shoes are not made of leather. I love tofu, but I had to learn to use it properly first. I still can't stand brussel spouts.

McDonald's cooks their chips in vegetable oil, but they add some beef juice to the things before they freeze them and ship them off to the restaurants. There is a lawyer here in Seattle who is starting a class-action law suit against them because they were being purposefuly deceptive about the ingredients and because the folks working in the restaurants were cheerfully telling customers the fries were completely vegetarian.

John

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 May 01 - 09:32 AM

Thanks for that info, John P. I hadn't said, before, that the main reason I became a wegetarian was because of cruelty to animals and my shoes are not leather, also. As you've said, there are oher reasons I choose to stay one, including the ecologocal and geo-political ones which you mention. It feels morally wrong for me.

Billy the Bus/Sam, tourist season over?! Where've you been, we've missed you!!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 28 May 01 - 09:56 AM

There was something on the radio last week about american slaughterhouses. It mentioned The Jungle which I had never heard of, and explained that nearly a century later conditions are still tough for workers in some slaughterhouses. I did not hear the entire piece or the name of the more recent expose book which was under discussion. I have been searching for info on the book or the program without sucess, here and here are details of what I believe is a similar book. The radio piece was in discussion with a man who I believe was the author and that book related to the poorly paid ( migrant?) workers having to repetatively do the same job all day long with a very fast turn over of animals (six times faster than uk slaughterhouses)
If anyone knows of the book I would be interested
On the veggie thing I eat Fish, very rarely chicken and never meat from mammals (unless someone mixed a bit of beef into my veggie burger for a laugh). I don't have a problem with anyone else eating meat - horses, dogs, guinea pigs

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Peg
Date: 28 May 01 - 12:05 PM

I was a vegetarian for several years in college and grad school. I was a theatre major and dancer so partly it was to stay healthy and trim. Of course I was also running 3-5 miles a day...wild youth...

I also became involved in the animal rights movement around this time (as well as working for Greenpeace) and it was very interesting to see/hear different peoples' approaches to living a cruelty-free life. Some thought wearing ANY thing from animals (leather, even wool) was wrong. I had a large collection of vintage leather coats and would explain, when asked why I wore them, that I was recycling an old item, thereby encouraging this parctice and NOT supporting the current leather industry beyond buying shoes (which I still do; I do not buy nearly as many shoes as most women I know).

For some activists, there was no way to be "cruelty-free" enough...as there was always a chance your lipstick got tested on a bunny's eyes, the milk in your coffee came from a dairy farm that kept veal calves in cages, etc.

I am no longer a vegetarian, but you know what I noticed?

The meat I ate growing up, hunted by my dad or purchased from local cattle or pig farms and slaughtered to our specifications by the same folks who would cut up my dad's deer in exchange for some of the meat, TASTED a whole lot better than what I get in the supermarket now.

I try only to buy naturally-raised meats and farm-raised fish (too dangerous to eat anything caught in most of the oceans now). The natural stuff costs more, but my health is worth it and I think if we create a greater demand for these products the pirce may drop a bit and, more importantly, they will be more widely available.

It is theorized the mysterious drop in average age of an American young girl who menstruates for the first time (from 16 at the turn of the century, to 14 in the 1950s, to 12 in the 1970s, to 10 now) has a fair amount to do with the amount of hormones ingested in the American diet...

BTW I think it is inaccurate to refer to yourself as a "vegetarian" if you eat fish or poultry, ever. In most cities potential roomate ads people say things like "semi-vegetarian" which usually means they eat anything but red meat...why not just say that?

One last thought; now that my monthly rent shall be increasing from $800 to $1350, I am thinking of becoming a vegetarian again because it is way cheaper...

A simple dinner of roasted (all natural!) chicken, steamed (organic!) broccoli and baked (organic!) potato costs around $2; natural steak or lamb chop, add a dollar; natural fish, add another dollar...

The same broccoli with a bit of cheese, baked potato with some (organic!) yogurt, and a salad with raw sunflower seeds for protein, costs a lot less and is a lot healthier...one-dish meals like Spanish rice or pasta prima vera even less!

Here's to walking lightly on the earth...

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 01 - 12:38 PM

That's one thing I love about living in Canada... comparitivly cheep, safe meat! ;-)

john in hull... Just by way of clearing up... The Otawa-Hull mentioned above isn't in the usa... it's in Canada...

On the cruelty thing... Ya... some slaughter houses and farms still are little animal auschwitz's, but things are changing no? Granted, there's only so much you can do with the death process... how clean does PETA expect it to be?? I just don't understand...

I also don't really understand the idea that it's wrong to kill animals for meat when the whole food chain works like that... Isn't all eating murder? It's not o.k. to eat cows, but it's o.k. to eat carrots? Are the carrots any less alive? To say, "It's just a plant" is arrogant and bigoted! All life is LIFE! Never mind thanking some invisible man in the sky for your food... when you sit down at the dinner table tonight, thank your FOOD for dying so that you can survive... That seems more like giving credit where credit is due...

One another slight aside... Do you know what would happen to all the cows on the planet if people stopped raising them for food and leather? They would die out all together... The species is almost totally incapable of supporting itself after so many ages and ages of being hand reared by humans...

Ain't we just grand?

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 28 May 01 - 12:40 PM

All these Vegetarian Johns', I am another one about 15 years or so. I am not a vegeie for animal rights or anything, my shoes have bits of leather on them. I have an occasional bit of fish, lots of cheese and dairy and my LTS problem is bacon, maybe twice a year or so. How can you go camping without bacon?? I have had alergies for a number of years and have dropped milk recently in favour of Soya milk (it tastes like crap and is powdery)I have also not been eating a lot of cheese or other dairy. It seems to be working as I have not yet resorted to taking any medication yet this year. You do need to know how to cook tofu though. We marinate it for about 10-20 min in a mixture of Soy sauce, finely chopped ginger and garlic, then fry it HOT in some olive oil until it is brown. A friend of my wife's who's family hated tofu, thoght it was the best "chicken" they had tasted when she did it this way. I don't know if she ever told the truth? Any more recipes ??

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Sooz
Date: 28 May 01 - 02:34 PM

Mike and I have been vegetarian for so long (27 years) that we can't remember why we started. We try not to use animal products including those in shoes and cosmetics, but don't try to convert our friends.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 28 May 01 - 02:34 PM

Clinton the program I heard was concerned with the heath/welfare of the workers. I think it said that as cattle come in various sizes the process could not be done by a machine, instead in production line fashion people work in close proximity wearing chain mail to protect themselves from each others knives. In this country people suffer from hand problems from doing the same repetative task all day long, I think the issue in the slaughterhouse program was that the workers were asigned to one task (a particular cut) and had to do that same task allday long and at very fast speeds.

Cows seem to do OK in India without being made into shoes or burgers

I've worked on a farm and seen calves being born which is a beautiful thing, there isn't anything similar about a carrot going to seed! I have also been to dairy farms where male calves were allowed to die as they had no value, at that time the meat industry wanted other breeds for rearing as beef, not sure if that still happens now. I also have a photo of my friends children feeding one of their dairy cows that had slipped and fell in the yard, it had to stay there several days before it died. That was at the start of the BSE crisis when the condition was not yet widely known.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 01 - 02:48 PM

All life is beautiful, no? Mammal, plant, bug, fish...

Even some people, but not very many!

LOL!!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 28 May 01 - 03:00 PM

....how ever much I try I cannot see the beauty of Leeches, Ticks, Fleas or Tapeworms. But yes fish are beautiful........







..and so tasty !!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: gnu
Date: 28 May 01 - 03:26 PM

Clinton... The Ottawa-Hull mentioned above isn't in the usa... it's in Canada...

Subtle. Good one.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: bbc
Date: 28 May 01 - 04:16 PM

My sweetheart, Duane D., eats eggs, milk, & seafood, but no meat.

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Roughyed
Date: 28 May 01 - 04:24 PM

I wndered how far I would get down this thread before someone brought up the 'Carrots have feeling too' argument. If you are an 'ethical' vegetarian the aim is to reduce suffering as much as possible. It is clear to me that animals feel pain because the more evolved ones show very similar reactions to pain and distress as we humans do. Even further down the scale, science can show that animals have nervous systems and the only point of those is to feel. Plants do not have nervous systems.

So if these plants actually do feel pain in some way which is unknown to us, given the aim of lessening suffering there are two options open. The first is suicide which causes extreme mental suffering to everyone who cares about you. The other option is vegetarianism.

What do cows, pigs, sheep etc eat - plants! It takes about sixteen pounds of plant protein to produce a pound of beef. So eating that pound of beef not only makes you responsible for the suffering of the cow (and the term humane slaughter is a nonsense), but also the supposed suffering of the plants that went to feed the cow, not to mention the suffering of the people who could have eaten those plants if they hadn't been fed to a cow.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 28 May 01 - 04:51 PM

I have to go now, Douglas Adams just came to mind and now I am thinking about a genetically modified carrot that displays the words EAT ME on its skin when fully grown, or a toaster that for no useful purpose displays the weather forecast on toast..................

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 28 May 01 - 04:55 PM

If a vegetarian is someone who eats vegetables, I'd hate to think what a humanitarian eats.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Gypsy
Date: 28 May 01 - 05:07 PM

We aren't totally rabid on it, we just treat meat like we would chocolate cake...nice occasionally, but certainly wouldn't eat all the time. Easier on the earth, since raising meat takes so very much room, and resourses. And, it is alot cheaper to shop without buying meat. Entertain 2X a week, family of 3, and i spend about 30-40$ weekly on groceries.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Max Tone
Date: 28 May 01 - 05:19 PM

When posting lyrics on this very subject, the new thread came up right next to this one, so here's the link.

="http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=34819&messages=1"
Nae offence to any passive veggies, just judgmental ones!
Rob

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Max Tone
Date: 28 May 01 - 05:30 PM

Whoops, that should have read --Tae a Bacon Butty

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 May 01 - 05:52 PM

not to mention the suffering of the people who could have eaten those plants if they hadn't been fed to a cow.

Yes, so many people can eat grass.

Eat whatever you want, but keep your self-righteousness about it to yourself.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 01 - 06:00 PM

LOL!!

I'm getting a T-shirt made that, on the front says

"I Eat Vegitarians"

And on the back it'll say...

"And I wear their pelts in winter!"

LOL!!

Be warned you veggers out there... when our grain fed beef runs out, yer next on the shopping list for us carnivors! LOL!!

Actually, I like to think of myself as an 'opportunivore"... Whata ya got? I'll eat it!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 May 01 - 06:00 PM

If we went veggie in this house, Manitas would starve to death, he only eats 3 vegetables and 2 of them are potatoes..... Ain't no bit of a pig he won't scoff (he once had a whole nipple in a bag of pork scratchings....) but the bratling and I are happy to go meatless once in a while....

And yes, I had heard there was vegetarian haggis... even tried some. It's pants. It tastes like a paper bag of pants that have been boiled for 40 minutes in cabbage water.

Anyone tried Quorn? Anyone else have the same (back)side effect? Spaw, you stay off it, you hear?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST,rodent-stealer
Date: 28 May 01 - 06:05 PM

That's really precious. Alex/mousethief, perhaps the most self-righteous Mudcatter of them all, ordering others to keep their self-righteousness to themselves.

I cannot contain myself, I am rolling on the floor laughing my head off.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 May 01 - 06:25 PM

So proud of what you have to say you say it anonymously?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: toadfrog
Date: 28 May 01 - 06:31 PM

Just one word of caution; wise words from a fine old song:

In these days of indigestion
It is often times a question
As to what to eat, and what to leave a lone!
For each microbe and bacillus
Has a different way to kill us
And in time they always claim us for their own!
There are germs of every kind
In any food that you can find
In the market or upon the bill of fare.
Drinking water's just as risky
As the so-called deadly whisky,
And it's ofter a mistake to breather the air!

Some little bug is going to find you some day.
Some little bug will get behind you some day.
And he'll sent for his (or her) bug friends
And all your earthly trouble ends!
Some little bug will get you some day!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Roughyed
Date: 28 May 01 - 06:55 PM

Hey mousethief, Beef cattle are rarely fed on grass. They are fed high protein food - often soya - which could directly be fed to humans instead. Don't get me wrong, there are much worse things than eating meat. Most of the people I love do. There may be a case for using marginal land for raising sheep - which generally do feed on grass if you are not bothered by the ethics of killing animals for food. But the cattle industry is geared to producing extremely fast growing animals fed on high protein foods.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: JeZeBeL
Date: 28 May 01 - 08:25 PM

I was veggie for 7 years, until august last year when the doctor told me off. I was getting a bit ill. I ate pulses etc....lots of very good veggie food, vitamins minerals. basically i should have been very healthy. i did everything right. being veggie jut doesn't suit some peoples bodies. I was most upset. but these things happen.

I still don't eat a lot of meat. but i am feeling better.

Listen to your body john.

Good luck

Jez xxx

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 May 01 - 11:14 PM

There is very hard evidence that vegetation is the highest form of life of the earth. Science has discovered a conciousness among them that is both effective and communicative. They have deteremined using poplygraph technology, that plants not only react severely when attacked, but they react when other plants are attacked ... more over they even reacted when scientists entered the room with the unspoken intention of attacking.

It is clear to me that vegetation, being the supreme life form, that I cannot, in good conscience eat anything except meat ... preferably only meat from predators, since they are one step removed from the masacre of unaremed plant life.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 29 May 01 - 01:37 AM

So Jed, You won't want any Fava beans & Chianti to go with that nice piece of liver? Your Friend, Hannibal :o)

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Roughyed
Date: 29 May 01 - 01:59 AM

Hey Jed - troll spotted.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: SeanM
Date: 29 May 01 - 02:18 AM

Well, despite cowardly attacks from idiots, MT's statement "Eat whatever you want, but keep your self-righteousness about it to yourself" sums up my view nicely.

Once had a good friend who upon graduating high school (here in the US), turned hardcore evangelical vegan. He religiously sent away for the most 'shocking' PETA videos he could, and set about annoying everyone he knew.

End result was that we started eating MORE meat around him, just to annoy him as much as he was us. Very quickly, we stopped associating with him. Eventually, one of our less forgiving friends beat the living crap out of him one day, as he still insisted on showing up at our hangouts, yelling "Meat is murder!" and all the other trite sayings that the extremists gave him to say.

I have no problem with vegetarians, regardless of how 'stringent' they are. However, the hardcore activist kind get roughly the same treatment as the average hardcore evangelical Christian gets - polite refusal, attempts to disengage, then varying rudeness until they finally go away.

M

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 01 - 04:04 AM

Veggies have to deal with that sort of behavior from meat eaters sometimes as well.

I was once told by a co-worker that I was going to go to hell because I'm a veggie. And in one rural county in which I used to live, vegetarians were considered peculiar at best, and at worst, un-American.

I think there's plenty of bad behavior on both sides of the equation.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 29 May 01 - 04:14 AM

Oh, the wondrous wanderings of Mudcat Threads

John in Hull says he's cutting down meat input - and innocently asks if there are any "veggies" out here - and what do we get into? A pack of retired/relapsed/reformed vegetarians, a discussion on animal/human rights and meat!...;)

Love it!

LtS - my mind is boggling over your description of the taste of "vegetarian haggis" - suggest you add details as a PM - after all, this is a family show..;)

Incidentally, I thoroughly approve of Manitas' choice of veges - hope the third one is peas - like mine?

Roger in Sheffield (Where the knives used in our NZ staughterhouses came from - oh for a decent butcher's knife again)..

There's a good song about "freezing-workers" (slaughtermen) in NZ - written in the early 60s by my mate Dave Jordan (who degenerated and went to Pomgolia to write music for rock[groups). It's called Gutboard Blues - apologies for introducing music to this BS thread...;)

Kat - Trust you to be the first to catch up with me - thanks for the welocome back, "wee tart"....)

Yep, the "silly season" is over - probably only briefly - I'm exhausted, and to keep in line with the way this thread's got headed - should be off to the "knackers yard"/

Cheers all - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 01 - 04:38 AM

I think you're right, Sam. This is a good thread. Good for you for pointing it out.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Big Tim
Date: 29 May 01 - 08:41 AM

Although I've been a veggie for 14 years I've never been happy with the term "vegetarian" as we do eat a lot more than vegetables. My daughter, a biologist, prefers herbivore but that's not populist enough for me. Can you catters come up with a better word? I'll start off with ENDA (eats no dead animals) (plus, Enda was an Irish saint!!!!! )

Jezebel: you doctor gave you bad advice, a lot of doctors are just as ignorant and just as biased as anyone else. A veggie diet is perfectly healthy for all.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 May 01 - 08:45 AM

billy well said, i expected a simple yes 5, or something like that. i am new to the inter net so i asked if anyone had any favourit websites last week and it turned into an argument (somebody told another member to f*** off!) but i suppose its all good fun.ps i think ill just cut down on the meat a bit.recently i seem to have been living on beer and burgers,my friends sister has just died of stomach cancer and it made me think .(she was only about 45) john

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: John P
Date: 29 May 01 - 09:04 AM

Many people, when they find out I'm a vegetarian, assume I am sitting in judgement on their eating habits and immediately start defending themselves. I really don't give a damn what anyone else eats, and I don't think most other vegetarians do either. And I haven't seen anyone in this thread trying to convert anyone else, or being particularly self-righteous.

Alex, Swan wasn't being self-righteous. She was explaining to someone who had asked about it the theory of causing the least possible cruelty. I didn't see her telling you anything about how to live your life. This is a thread about vegetarianism. Perhaps I should say: "Eat whatever you want, but don't come into a thread about vegetarianism and accuse vegetarians of being self-righteous because they are talking about why they are vegetarians."

I agree that the rabid converts who rail at all their friends for eating meat are pretty offensive, and counterproductive as well. I haven't seen any of that going on here.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Michael in Swansea
Date: 29 May 01 - 09:44 AM

I'm a vegetarian but not by choice, I've been a veggie from birth. Any meat, fish or eggs that went in my mouth was immediately spat out or if Mam managed to get me to swallow I threw it up. My system just couldn't cope with these foodstuffs. Anything else, fine.
Our doctor told Mam that I HAD to eat meat etc or else! She tried and I tried but to no avail, meat fish and eggs made me sick.
Much to my surprise, I found at the age of 28, that I could eat an egg, (hard only), without being sick.
I'll be 50 on June 12 and I still try occasionally to eat a small piece of meat or fish. To date no success.
I can cook meat and fish, smells great, but put it in my mouth? No thanks, until the next try.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 May 01 - 10:06 AM

Vegetarians?

Many nice ones I've met but I'll nver forget that extremely naive young German woman vegetarian I met in a train. She was just traveling back from an airport. She had come back from Iceland after a few days there where she had planned to stay for a year in a family in the very North of Iceland. She had looked forward to that year and was devasteted the first evening at dinner table when potatoes were the only non-meat on the table. When she was asking she was told that during winter time there would be weeks with only meat or fish and no alternative at all. She had to give up Iceland or being vegetarian. She gave up Iceland. I am still amazed that she didn't think of that problem before for even a tiny bit of reading about living conditions in Iceland would have told her of that problem.

Why do I tell this? There are regions in the world where you cannot be vegetarian (except at a very high cost for the environment due to unneccessary transport) and there are regions where you can easily.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Big Tim
Date: 29 May 01 - 10:17 AM

Wolfgang: for once you are talking crap! being a vegetarian is simple; just don't eat meat. I really admire that young woman for missing Iceland for her principles though I've been in 28 countries and always managed. However If I had to choose between visiting a country and not eating animals I'd definitely give that country a miss.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 May 01 - 10:24 AM

Tim, I was laughing about her for she easily could have known before.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Fortunato
Date: 29 May 01 - 10:27 AM

Hello John in Hull.

Well, John, I became a vegetarian in 1974 for spiritual/ethical reasons (Zen). It turned out to be the right diet for my health as well. In 1997 I reintroduced fish and shell fish in my diet for health reasons, sort of the optimum diet IMHOP.

My advice? Seek out soy based recipes, tofu, etc. Contrary to opinions above, the recipes can be damn good, about as good as the cook cooking. And eat salmon. As much as you can afford.

Now, when you eat, just eat, and be mindful, stay AWAKE.

cheers, Fortunato

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 29 May 01 - 10:29 AM

I don't believe there is one diet that is perfectly healthy for all, because we are all different.

When I went semi-vegetarian a couple of years ago, I was hungry all the time, and in spite of a regular exercise program, I gained 16 pounds. Gained weight on salad, chicken, fruit, yogurt, cereal and vegetables. Ate no sausage or cheeseburgers or ice cream.

When I switched back to eating more lean meats and less bread and pasta, the weight came off and I am not hungry all the time.

Whoever up above said that a veggie diet is cheaper... come shopping with me one day and you may change your mind. Good vegetables are expensive down here in Tennessee.

I say, if you want to try it, try it. Somebody mentioned vegetarian cooking is better now than it ever has been. And the meat-substitute soy products are much better too.

Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 May 01 - 10:42 AM

JohnP, I agree with you, except when it comes to the house I live in. The smell of meat cooking in my house turns my stomach and makes me physically ill, so I do not live and let live in that way. If Rog wants any red meat, he cooks it in his little oven out in his "playhouse" (caravan, his toolhouse on wheels. It's like others guys' garages or sheds, like Rick's:-)

Billy, no knacker's yard for you! We'll revive ya! It si damn good to see you!

As for the terms, I once had a friend who was vegan and she simply said she didn't eat anything with eyes that could look back at her.

katwhousedtobearabidradicalaboutit

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 29 May 01 - 11:10 AM

G'day Kat,

Might have to start a thread about "Sheds"

And, as to your virgin friend - and eyss? Don't think she would handle a plate of whitebait fritters....;)

Sam

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Gervase
Date: 29 May 01 - 11:11 AM

Problem with being a veggie in a cold northern climate like the UK (or Iceland) is getting the right protein.
OK, there's soya, but how many rolling acres of soybean are there in the UK? They have to be shipped in from overseas, meaning the expenditure of non-renewable fossil fuels. Not to mention many of the other exotics that make up a balanced veggie diet. So Tim, lay off Wolfgang!
There's nothing wrong with being a vegetarian - but if claim to be one for ethical/moral reasons and you drink cows' milk, wear leather or wool or eat anything that needs to be imported then you're going to find it hard to avoid being called a hypocrite.
I'm happy eating meat, but would rather eat stuff I've shot/caught myself. If not, then I use an organic butcher. But I won't buy from supermarkets or high street chains, and neither should anyone who cares about the welfare of either the animals or the farmers.
Bloody hell, here's me, a meat-eater, sounding pious. sorry chaps!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 May 01 - 11:44 AM

Animals love vegetarians,

and the reason is plain to see

I don't shoot at the animals,

and they don't shoot at me

from "The Hunting Song" © Gerri Gribi

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Peg
Date: 29 May 01 - 11:49 AM

I believe I have recommended this book before in other threads where the talk turned to what we eat and why...

Native Nutrition.

A VERY interesting look at the nutrition of indigenous peoples throughout history, and what happened when certain food items were introduced into those cultures (for example, sugar).

The author believes meat eating for certain peoples is entirely the right thing to do, and also thinks the standards governing agribusiness-raised meat are appalling; quite a good balanced attitude, I think.

Peg

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 29 May 01 - 12:33 PM

Peg, I will have to check that out. It is my personal theory that what individuals eat now has a lot to do with what their ancient ancestors ate. Geography definitely has a bearing on what foods are available. Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 01 - 12:33 PM

I'm sorry if I sounded like I was attacking Swan. I have been kicked so many times by rabid vegitarians that I sometimes overreact. Mea culpa.

I agree that the meat industry in this country (USA) is pretty disgusting.

Nobody has mentioned that kosher meats are prepared in ways, and facilities, which minimize cruelty and suffering. (Of course every time I mention anything Jewish the trolls come out of the walls, but it does deserve mentioning, and I can't muzzle myself to please cowardly attackers, or they will have won. If everyone but the bullies leave the playground, there will be nobody left but bullies.)

Nor the philosophical point that animals don't "suffer" the way humans in pain do, because they (at least the ones typically used for food) lack a sense of self that makes pain into suffering. (This is not a philosophical point but rather a neurological one -- I can give you book titles if you like.)

I do think everything should be done to minimize the pain of animals, and make their lives as pleasant as can be expected given the type of animal they are.

Nobody has mentioned essential amino acids, I don't believe. John in Hull, when you stop eating meat and other animal products (dairy, eggs), you must ensure that your diet includes the amino acids which humans cannot produce inside their own bodies and must therefore get from their food. Probably the best discussion of this (that I have seen) is in the book, "Laurel's Kitchen." It's also a great cookbook.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Big Tim
Date: 29 May 01 - 12:52 PM

Wolfgang, thanks for taking the big "insult" as it was intended - lightheartedly.

Seriously though, does anyone really believe that torturing, killing and eating other living creatures is NOT cruel?

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 01 - 01:10 PM

Torturing? yes...

Killing and eating? Absolutely NOT... That's called The Food Chain.. it's the way the whole planet works... some stuff dies so that other stuff can live...

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 29 May 01 - 01:12 PM

Mouse I have heard of but do not understand the meaning of kosher meat, so please enlighten me, by PM if it is easier.
Sorry that the thread went way off your original question John in Hull, I eat fish and other meat now and then. My reason for not eating too much chicken ( which I like) is that I have had food poisoning a couple of times from chicken sandwiches/meals
The book I refered to is this one

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: BobP
Date: 29 May 01 - 01:34 PM

Does Sushi count? What about liver?

Oh, so you'd eat the filet and leave the liver, that's not fair.

I say carnivores should have to eat the "whole damn thing".

Would you rather be a gazelle, or a fat lazy lion? (wait, a hippo is also a veg . . .

And you Canadians; after a few of your winters, perhaps a cow might actually prefer a warm comfortable slaghterhouse. And mousethief knows a few painless ones!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 01 - 01:35 PM

Can't we use the liver for dog food? Rex is hungry too, and he LIKES the damned stuff.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 29 May 01 - 01:48 PM

They do use liver for dog food. My animals like it too. Used to be, you could also buy Alpo with horsemeat. I don't think I ever bought that one, though, and I haven't seen it on the shelves in awhile. (When I was in Paris, I did see horsemeat on the menu, though.)

Most carnivores don't eat the whole damn thing. They leave the rest for scavengers.

Animals eat other animals. That's the way the Earth was built. We are animals too. Of course we can choose our food sources, which makes us a little different. But we are still animals. There's nothing wrong with that.

For those of you who refer to the Scriptures, the Lord told Noah after the flood that all the animals were there for him to eat if he wanted.

Now. We can all choose to eat what we like. I like meat. I like eggs. I like dairy. And I like me quite a few vegetables too. Sometimes I do cook a meat-free meal. (man, I love them portobello mushrooms all grilled up, and lentils and tomatoes in the Crock-Pot is a weekly thing in the winter) And if you come to my house for supper, I will make sure you have something yummy to eat, no matter what your dietary choice. And if you're a veg, and invite me to your house, I'm going to appreciate whatever it is you feed me.

So there.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 01 - 02:30 PM

Okay, Kat, now what will we talk about? You've said it all!

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: BobP
Date: 29 May 01 - 02:35 PM

For the record, I like meat.

I believe the anti-meat stuff is overhyped.

I'm actually a charter member of the go-eat-what-you-want society. Just don't make a big deal of it.

I appreciate social trends that would lead to making meat less the star attraction of the dish. I think it tastes better and is better for you when the meat plays a supporting role or is occasionally omitted.

And, as for "kosher" (now this is for fun); I always thought it refered to what jewish husbands snuck off to the corner deli for, after pretending to enjoy dinner.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Big Tim
Date: 29 May 01 - 03:32 PM

Killing and eating animals is "part of the food chain". Not for me, my wife, two adult daughters, one son-in-law and about 6% of the residents of Britain it aint. We have unlinked that part of the chain and are much happiers for it as are very many animals.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 29 May 01 - 03:38 PM

Some info on what kosher means.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 29 May 01 - 04:24 PM

well, this is changing the subject a little.... I love hot dogs but rarely eat them anymore because they seem to make my head hurt. Someone suggested I try a kosher brand of dogs. I haven't yet because they cost more than twice as much as junk dogs! But I plan to one of these days. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 01 - 04:28 PM

Hot dogs are very heavy in sodium, and nitrates/nitrites (I can never remember which is which). Getting the kosher brand (which are wonderful, if we're talking about Hebrew National -- yum!) may not help you any.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: hesperis
Date: 29 May 01 - 04:52 PM

Plants do feel, they are alive. Animals feel, and any rationalization that they "don't have a sense of self" necessary to feel pain is just that - a rationalization.

Pain is pain.

I would be extremely suspicious of any scientific study that seeks to prove that animals do not feel pain the way we do. That sounds like a theory created with bias towards being able to kill without guilt. Is it necessary for an animal to feel the way a human does for it to be taken seriously? How can they feel the way humans do? They are not human! But they obviously feel pain and fear, and they make choices to avoid pain and fear, if they are free. Just as we do.

And even small animals have personalities. Hamsters have specific likes and dislikes, and I have not encouraged it. One of my hamsters likes to crawl through toilet paper rools, and the other used to hate it. When I got them, I assumed that hamsters would like toilet rolls, and I read that most hamsters do like them. I think it's fun playing with them and the rolls, and would rather that both of them liked it. It's definitely their choice, not mine, if they like it or not. They don't have personality? Hello!

Animal training is based on reward and punishment, right? You can train birds that way, dogs, horses, the list goes on... They are obviously responding to PLEASURE and PAIN in order to make DECISIONS.

However, plants and small animals go into a "sleep" state when they are about to die. Carnivores in nature, shake their prey to loosen the "soul" from the body before actually killing the thing.

Killing happens all the time in nature, but it is personal, not impersonal and therefore unnecessarily cruel. It is our choice of what life to take, so that we live. It is their choice to become that which is eaten, that their cells may live in another form. Then life goes on. It is a direct exchange, their life for mine. And there is an opportunity to feel grateful for that, rather than guilty.

Slaughterhouses are cruel and unnecessarily so. The animals cannot help but be aware in advance that something bad is going to happen. They smell it, they feel the fear of those around them, they are aware of the death of the one previous to them in line.

It is our guilt at taking their life that causes us to hide it away in slaughterhouses rather than honestly looking at the fact that our choice to live has deprived another being of their choice to live. It is our guilt at not being vegetarian that causes us to feel that anyone who is vegetarian is attacking us for eating meat, even when they are just stating that they can't eat meat for whatever reason.

That said, most people take me for a vegetarian because I was anemic for years, undiagnosed. I was vegetarian for a while, but wasn't doing it properly, because I hated green leafy vegetables, the ones full of iron. I found out recently that I was *very* allergic to iron, which is why I couldn't digest meat or green vegetables well at all. (I already knew I was severely allergic to dairy.) Since being treated for those, I am much better, but I still need to be treated for hormones and additives before being comfortable eating meat a lot. I like meat, though. My favorite dish is a stir-fry with organic hamburger crumbled in it, and I LOVE beef gravy! MMMMMMM!

So, if you are going to go vegetarian, be sure to do it properly. Eat seaweeds if you are going vegan, because most humans don't produce enough B12 for themselves. Get your blood tested fairly regularly if there is a concern about nutrition, and plan meals well.

Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 29 May 01 - 05:15 PM

Rodger in Sheffield, I'm suprised that with all the protein pontification going on, no one gave you the answer to your question about "The Jungle," which was written by Upton Sinclair in about 1920, if my memory serves me well. It was considered one of the first "Muckraking" novels, along the lines of Jessica Midford, some thirty years later. It was responsible for the formation of the USDA meat inspection and grading standards, and some of the safety requirements for meat industry workers.

Personally I will eat almost anything that had a face or a mother. I absolutely love vegetarians, since they keep the price of meat down, are cheap dates, spend more time worrying about what's in meat than I do (thereby keeping the meat companies on their toes) and are the only people who will shut-up when they put a rare tender piece of the cow that died for my sins, on the plate in front of me. Now that's communion.

And by the way, I've honestly never known a vegetarian that truely LOOKED healthy...

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 29 May 01 - 05:43 PM

I don't have any guilt about my food. I butchered a deer once, that my dad shot. I know where it comes from. It fed Mister and me for a good two years.

I tried the leaving out meat for health reasons. It didn't work for me.

I have been attacked by a vegetarian. Only one. I had to take it because she was my boss. But she wore leather so I don't know what that was all about.

My other veg friends don't tell me what to eat and I don't tell them what to eat. That's a really personal choice. Leave my food alone and I'll leave your food alone. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 01 - 06:16 PM

I'll thank you not to impute motives to my behaviors, hesperis. Or show me your license.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 01 - 06:25 PM

That sounds like a cool kind of license to have, mousethief. "CarolC, license to impute." What kind of qualifications to you need to get such a license?

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: RichM
Date: 29 May 01 - 06:26 PM

I'd be suspicious of any "study" that purports to measure pain in animals.Cats and dogs are very alert to stimuli visually, and aurally. Why should they not feel pain to the same degree?

For a while I gave daily injections of antibiotic to a one-and-one-half inch turtle, with possibly the world's smallest hypodermic. Her reactions to this process were quick and frantic. I don't doubt reptiles feel pain!

There is a tendency among humans to elevate themselves above animals in all ways--including neurologically, it seems...

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 01 - 06:26 PM

I was thinking of license to practice psychoanalysis, actually. But I like the way you think, Carol. Maybe I'll start a licensing bureau and issue Imputation Licenses. This could be a real big business! :-)

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: hesperis
Date: 29 May 01 - 08:44 PM

Well, I have a "Poetic Licensce"... and my step-dad is a therapist.

I actually have a hard time finding a therapist if I want to talk about stuff, because I know more about my inner processes than most of them, and more about theirs, too.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 May 01 - 09:04 PM

mousethief, a few years ago i worked in a kosher slaughter-house,the animals were killed without being stunned and then hung to bleed to death,i think if we kill animals it should be done as humanely as possible.
kim c you could be allergic to monosodium glutamate, its a food additive also known as E621, it is known to cause headaches and is often used in chinese cooking. check product labels for MSG.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 01 - 09:12 PM

Sometimes MSG is only mentioned on the label (in the U.S.) as 'natural flavoring'. They are not required to name it specifically.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 May 01 - 12:23 AM

Well, John from Hull, I'm going to have to hope your experience was atypical; I was certainly under the impression that kosher slaughter was humane (as humane as killing can ever be, of course).

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 30 May 01 - 09:57 AM

I have heard about MSG.... I thought maybe it was nitrites giving me a headache but there's nitrite in almost all deli meats now, and they don't seem to bug me. Chinese cooking doesn't bug me either. Oh well.......

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Gary T
Date: 30 May 01 - 10:01 AM

There are very clear anatomical differences and similarities among and between various groups of animals. Mammals have brain parts that are non-existent in other animals. Mammals have emotions, and feel pain. It's a pretty sure bet that none contemplate and agonize over these things the way humans do, although the great apes probably come close.

"Reptilian" type brains, found in reptiles, amphibians, and birds, do not have emotions and can't process "pain." These animals mostly function on instinct and reflex. Humans have tended to anthropomorphize their observations of animals, ascribing concepts such as fear and love to actions that are really based on much simpler brain processes. When you get to the "lower" life forms, it's all pretty much reaction to stimuli. A lobster does not suffer when plunged into boiling water. It reacts to the heat stimulus in ways programmed to get it away from danger. It does not "think" of danger, nor "wish" to avoid it. It is human nature to look at the process as if we were in that position and ascribe our feelings to the lobster, but they don't apply.

This is all pretty basic stuff that can be gleaned from a large amount of objective research out there. Humans are far and away the most neurologically developed, elevated if you will, creatures on the planet. That's why we are able to study these things. And agonize about them. And learn that not all animals have feelings.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: guinnesschik
Date: 30 May 01 - 10:09 AM

Well, hell! As a rabid omnivore, I've gotta put in my two cent's worth. I grew up in a hunting environment. We had almost no stock animals besides goats, sheep, and turkeys, but we lived well with plenty of wild game such as venison, squirrel, rabbit, and a few helpings of "mystery meat" that would arrive home already cleaned.

I tend to believe that we're too removed from our carnivorous souls, and we don't like to think about where our meat comes from. It's good to be at the top of the food chain.

However, I have many friends who are vegetarians, and I tend to prepare a whole range of foods when we have guests, with at least one vegan dish.

We've gone vegetarian in our household for months at a time, but it didn't make us feel "better", just more appreciative for our meat. And being a healthy vegetarian, with alternate protein sources is damned expensive in Texas, too!

Okay, down from the soap box. Everyone should eat what they want and enjoy, but don't get me started on fur coats!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 30 May 01 - 11:02 AM

I think people who want to wear fur should have to trap it themselves. :-) However, there are people who still live in sub-zero temperatures, and I'm not about to tell them they can't wear a bearskin coat, or eat caribou.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 May 01 - 11:09 AM

My take on fur is that it is absolutely WRONG to kill endangered animals to make fur coats. It is almost certainly wrong to club baby seals, whether endangered or not. It is morally problematic to trap wild animals that are not endangered. But farm animals, as long as they're treated well, I have no problem with. Again this is just me.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Gypsy
Date: 30 May 01 - 11:21 AM

Along with fur coat wearers doing their own trapping/skinning/tanning/etc, think it would be a good idea for everyone to butcher, start to finish, at least once. We used to do it on a small commercial basis, which might be one reason we don't eat much meat anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 May 01 - 11:31 AM

Gypsy, does cleaning fish count? I've done that many times. And I still eat fish. :)

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 May 01 - 12:01 PM

I think we should all be forced by law to dig our own water wells, generate our own electricity, weave our own fabric and sew our own clothes, too. And why stop there? We should be forced to create our own sewing needles, shovels, knives, and other tools - and if we have time, we can build our own TVs too. It is pure hypocracy to think that taking any advantage of our societies technologies and other benefits is anything but unfair to the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 May 01 - 12:15 PM

... of course killing endangered animals is wrong, for almost any reason. Condemning fur wearers wholesale, or demanding they take exraordinary measures as penalty for crossing someone else's 'holier then thou' threshold is nonesense! It's as ignorant as hating SUV drivers, or many other currently popular forms of class warfare. Obviously furs offer mankind one of the most effective protections to some environments, and like many other traditional garments, furs have found fashion advantages for some.

We farm cotten and corn. We farm minks and catfish. There are laws that govern the production and processing environments for all of those. What's the purpose of denegrating meat eaters or fur wearers, except to prove to the world that you, the complainer, are superior in your humanity, and know how the rest of the world should behave, (if only they'd listen)?

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: RichM
Date: 30 May 01 - 12:15 PM

The planet can endure much of our technological processes; most is simply broken down into components and re-integrated in the decay cycle.
Some things-either by their extreme toxicity (plutonium, as an example) or sheer vast quantity (name your own favorite poison)-are not as digestible to Momma Earth sans repercussion.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: guinnesschik
Date: 30 May 01 - 12:50 PM

Okay, okay, I meant fur that has no other use but ornamentation. (ie: meat is not used.) BUT, I also think it's wrong for anyone to make another human's decisions for them.

I DO think it's a great idea for folks to experience the joy of growing one's own food, making one's own gear, etc...Maybe it SHOULD be a law for folks to expereince self-reliance at least once in a life time.

I've done it.....

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 May 01 - 01:07 PM

There's not enough land in the world for everybody to be fully self-reliant in all aspects.

Fur has a great use beyond ornamentation: insulation.

alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 30 May 01 - 01:34 PM

I have spun my own yarn. I have a great little hood I knitted from alpaca and mohair that I spun myself. When I had time I grew my own salads.

I never said people shouldn't take advantage of technology. I believe I had a smiley-face after my comment about trapping one's own coat. How many people would still wear minks if they knew a mink is nothing but an ill-tempered little WEASEL? They're hateful little buggers. But hey, people can spend their money however they like. It's too warm in Tennessee for a fur, most of the time, anyhow. My mom's got one, though. Not for me. I didn't want her to get it for the simple reason that I didn't want anyone throwing red paint on her. Hasn't happened, thankfully.

Now. Maybe somebody up in Alaska can clear this up. It's my understanding that some of the native people there are allowed to kill certain endangered animals for survival reasons. Anybody know?

Death is part of the circle of life for all creations, be they animal or plant. Maybe plants don't feel pain, but they are living organisms, and several of them have to die so we can eat them. That's just the way it is. You think it's too crowded around here now? Just think what it would be like if we let everything live forever.

I eat meat. I wear leather. I drive an SUV and I own a cell phone with voice mail. I made those choices. You can make yours too. So there. :-P

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 May 01 - 01:52 PM

... sounds like, then; we're all in fierce agreement!

I know that native peoples are often excused from the prohibitons the rest of us face regarding restrictions on hunting of endangered or even non-endangered species, if tere is a history of their use of that animal. I have seen native people hunting whales and seals in Alaksa, and I know some are excused from seasonal restrictions on salmon and other fish. I presume that is because their non-commercial (or small scale commercial) efforts cannot harm the overall population. This seems to make sense, assuming the regulators have done their homework, and their numbers are correct.

I have killed and cleanned lots of fish, a few rabbits and have grown my own veggies too. I appreciate the effort that goes into these tasks, but generally find it practical to buy this stuff prepared at the market!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 30 May 01 - 01:56 PM

Okay then.

Getting back to vegetables, can anyone comment on the prices of fresh produce in their particular locales? I know the price of groceries has gone up in general quite a bit over the last few years. I'll use mixed greens as an example: here in Nashville, mixed salad greens run anywhere from $5-$7 a pound, depending on where you go.

I love mixed salad greens but I've gone back to red leaf lettuce cause it's only $1.50 a head.

Since we started eating less processed foods, we spend more money at the store too.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 May 01 - 03:53 PM

Here's one I want to know: why do the prices of mushrooms fluctuate? I mean plain old white mushrooms, not the fancy-schmancy ones. There can't be a SEASON; the damned things are grown underground in abandoned salt mines. There ought to be a fairly steady year-round supply, and prices pretty much stable. But they vary between $1 a pound up to sometimes over $3 a pound. I refuse to buy plain white mushrooms for $3.50 a pound -- and when I don't get my mushrooms, there's not telling what may happen.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 30 May 01 - 09:28 PM

gary
im sure birds feel pain, ive worked in abbotoirs and seen them killed,it certainly looked like pain to me.john

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Peg
Date: 30 May 01 - 09:32 PM

I don't think it is "ignorant" to hate the proliferation of SUVs; they are destroying the environment and creating a shortage of fuel, not to mention endangering drivers in smaller cars...

I don;t hate people who drive SUVs; I hate the attitude that seems to be so rampant in this country which says "I don't care about anyone or anything besides MYSELF!"

if someone wants to drive one to go off-road or tackle bad weather, more power to 'em; but don't tell me all those matrons on Nantucket need' em to get their groceries...

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: guinnesschik
Date: 30 May 01 - 09:47 PM

Kim C, fresh groceries outprice prepared stuff everywhere. It's a conspiracy to keep the poor and undereducated from eating what's healthy. (Not really! Please, don't hurt me!) I check all the grocery store flyers before I do my shopping and may hit two or three stores for different items. Frotunately, I'm in an area where I can do so.

I'd RATHER grow my own, but I don't have the space or time. Maybe some day....

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Peg
Date: 30 May 01 - 10:00 PM

those mixed greens are indeed pricey! sometimes Wild Oats has them on sale for $2.99 a pound and that is when I buy them; otherwise it seems cheaper to get a salad at the salad bar to get your greens and get the cheaper lettuce for at home...

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: DaveJ
Date: 31 May 01 - 05:45 AM

By means of putting music back into this thread, I went looking for the Title and the Lyric's to the song that contains the words "Don't Slay that Potato." (Maybe that is the title?) Someone on this forum probably can sing it from memory, but I couldn't find it in the DT. But I did find the Cucumber Song. See gents veggies really are better than 'meat'...just ask the ladies.

CUCUMBER SONG

A restless young lady from Phuket, Developed a wonderful trend, To purchase cucumbers for pleasure, 'Cause she found they were better than men.

cho: So line up for your cucumbers, ladies, They're selling for two bucks apiece, Your frustrated days are all over, 'Cause cucumbers never get pissed.

In Asia they're eaten with chilies, In Britain they're put between bread, But in Phuket we use them as teddies, 'Cause we know that they'll never want head.

They'll never leave stains on the mattress, They're happy to live in the fridge, The loo seat is never left standing, And I've never seen cucumber kids.

So watch out you self-centered guys, You're not quite as great as you think, There's no guarantee it will work again, And we can't trade you in when it shrinks.

Tune:Botany Bay @bawdy @vegetable filename[ CUKUMBER Tune file : BOTBAY2

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Big Tim
Date: 31 May 01 - 06:02 AM

Dave; that's really stretching it!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Kim C
Date: 31 May 01 - 10:39 AM

The Wild Oats here in Nashville never has them on sale for that cheap...

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Peg
Date: 31 May 01 - 10:50 AM

Kim: watch those flyers! And often the produce specials are not advertised but just these "manager specials."

I suppose it may also have to do with the suply of those products in your area...

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 01 - 02:53 PM

I heard a folksong on the radio last week called "Hitler Was A Vegetarian".

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 31 May 01 - 02:56 PM

And he was, too. Thus proving that "guilty by association" is irrational. (i.e. just because he was a v. doesn't mean v.ism is bad. I'm sure he drank water, too)

I thought up something today: what if you're a vegan, but you chew your nails? It's not MUCH but if you swallow any nail parings, it's an animal product, right?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 31 May 01 - 03:43 PM

To Peg:

Here's one! There once was a matron from Nantucket Who thought she had to have a SUVEE to truck it. One day so grand, She drove off into the sand, And dug herself in up to her bucket!

To the thread: I once was a vegetarian, might yet go back to it. I came from a family farm where we had to take care of the animals we slaughtered or we didn't eat. We also grew our veggies or we didn't eat. Did my share of game huntin' too. Mealtime choices were two: 1. Take it 2. Or leave it I STILL don't see the sense of salads (waste of garden space) or strawberries in the winter time. Where the hell do those come from? Times change, but I think we are all products of when and how we were brought up. This includes our food ideas.

I don't like waste and this Cherokee is beginning to think that we ought to buy as local as we can and support Community Sustainable Agriculture farms and REAL farmers markets! A CSA is usually a situation where you buy shares of an organic farm and you get what the farmer harvests. Up side - - good local organic produce. Down side - - you cityfied folks get to see that mother earth really does affect your food availability! Forming food co-ops are nice as well, but a whole wheel barrow full of work.

Check with your county extension agent ( every county in the U.S. of A. has one ) and see if they have a listing of CSA's and farm markets in your area. I expect you furrin' ( hillbilly for foreign ) 'catter critters have some sort of a similar government set-up.

Remember above all else, nuthin' beats a home grown tomato!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: mousethief
Date: 31 May 01 - 03:47 PM

Only home-grown tomatoes have any taste at all.

But they're virtually impossible to grow in Western Washington, alas, without a greenhouse.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Susan A-R
Date: 31 May 01 - 09:49 PM

Hmm, I'm an omnivore, and I run a vegetarian restaurant. I married a vegetarian 15 years ago, and vegetarian food is what I am comfortable cooking for the mases. I'm just not a proficient meat buyer. I'll let some other chef cook it. Meanwhile, there's lots of great vegetarian food out there flavor-wize, and lots of good fat/protein sources too. But I guess that, at heart, I'm with spaw.

Gee Mousethief, I never thought of the mushroom price question before. I'll ask the produce buys.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Peg
Date: 31 May 01 - 10:27 PM

Walking Eagle:

I do like the CSA idea, and farmers' markets are a wonderful thing! I think more small towns and cities would show a demand for them if farmers gave it a try with the help of their local chambers of commerce or business leaders...

We must get our asses back to the land if we wre ever going to survive. If that makes me a tree-huggin' hippie, well good on me...

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Gypsy
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 12:24 AM

We tend to eat seasonally available items, so fresh is much less expensive than purchasing prepared. By following the seasons, find that what we crave and need is usually fulfilled by what is available. And no, i am not a total anachronism, just suggest that most people who eat meat have no idea where it comes from. It is a whole different gig when you do it yourself, and have raised it from a lamb/calf/kid/piglet. Live with something for nigh unto a year, butcher it, and then tell me how you feel about meat. Just tastes like hard work to me, now.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 02:02 AM

The chemical in your drugs?

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 05:42 AM

if you marinate egg plant in kikkoman japanese soy sauce for a few hours then do them in a stir fry, they taste like the best beef you ever tasted!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 05:50 AM

Do you use your kikkoman straight, or do you add water to it before you marinate, Mr Happy?

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: fogie
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 07:20 AM

I'm getting paranoid about talking non-music with some of the BS articles at present, but I've often wondered where such marked, almost religious ideology could lead. I confess I'm an omnivore, and would if neccessary kill and prepare what I ate. I'm sure I would eat less meat if I had to do it all the time, but I'd be as quick and painless as I could be. I wonder if the principles of Darwinian selection would ultimately lead us to seperate species, with differing teeth- I once told a sister in law that she could be fitted with either vegetarian or omnivorous dentures if she so wished. I can also imagine the two camps becoming very different psychologically, and I wonder if they would ultimately fight, and who would be likely to win! I tend to think that when the chips were down most people would eat what was available to survive , which is what weve done as a species from the beginnings

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 07:28 AM

I keep my lemonade trailer in a yard next to a slaughter house. (My god I wish I didn't-but it's the only space available at the moment) I can't go to the trailer by day because hearing the pigs making their final scream of terror reduces me to tears. All sixth formers should visit a slaughter house as part of their education. Unless, like me, they are vegitarian. I don't eat anything with a bottom!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 09:39 AM

I don't try to convert anyone, but I never want another dead animal in my mouth again.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 05:42 PM

If it is longevity you are concerned with Mr. John in Hull -

Don't worry about your burgers and animal tallow chips - worry about the chemicals in your commercially brewed beers.

Why did you post this to a MUSIC BBS?

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Caz
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 05:55 PM

John I've been veggie for 15 years and have so many great, quick and easy recipes you would be gob smacked. If you want any just give me a shout and I'll be more than happy to pass some on to you.

We are on holiday soon but hope to catch up with you on our return.

Take care and keep up the good work. Anything you do is better than nothing and any reason is OK in my book.

Carole - OUTSIDER

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 10:16 PM

Have a nice holiday Caz.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 12:46 AM

So John - Are You NOW - One Year and Six Weeks post starting THIS thread - a committed burger/chip HATING vegetarian?

Or perhaps ..................

............................you were just lonely................

...... and

................................................................. blowing smoke ...................

...that night................................. so long ago.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 01:10 AM

Guest-I never said I was vegetarian, read my first post on this thread again, I have decided to reduce tha amount of meat I eat, why are you so concerned with what I eat anyway? Are you the same Guest that advised me to stop drinking & smoking? If so, what makes you think I smoke?

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 04:50 AM

Blowing smoke up someone's ass is an American expression for B.S.ing

I believe Guest was just being nice.

And John, the opening to your thread DID indicate you decided to cut out/ down the amount of meat i eat, so again I side with Guest.

You stated your motivation i seem to have been living on beer and burgers,my friends sister has just died of stomach cancer and it made me think. So, it appears that Guest once again is only encouraging you in your desire to change your life.

By the way, also in America, there was once an imaginary cockroach named "Archy" who wrote commentary in a newspaper office when all had left for the night. Archy could not use the cap-key on the type-writer. Not meaning to be critical(like the other Guest) but are you affecting Archy's style or is the beer affecting you? Perhaps, clogged arteries are preparing a stroke? What is up with your writing?

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 11:54 PM

Guest-Don't judge other people, or you might get judged yourself.

Sincerley
John

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 07:28 PM

Saw a great T-shirt this weekend. It said "I didn't climb to the top of the food chain to become a vegetarian"

Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 11:52 AM

There are over 30 people supporting you in this thread John from Hull. Come on, you can do it.

Have you lost weight since 14 months ago?
Have you given up the beer?
Have you at least cut back on meat?
If you still eat meat, is it the "healthier" kind?
Do you exercise, and at least walk more?

You were ready to make some life changing affirmations. You shared them with the world. You had powerful reasons to change after watching the devastating effects of stomach cancer. You CAN do it. Seize the vision. We are here to help you. There are people here who will prayer with you right now. Renew the commitment to change. Make your life into something more than a booze swilling guitar-string-mechanic for someone else.

John, we are, all 30 of us, waiting.

What is your decision tonight?

Tell us.

We are hear to listen.

Go ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 06:25 PM

Amen Brother!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 02:00 AM

To the tune of Come All Ye Faithful

Why are we waiting,
Could be fornicating
Why are we waiting
So....F&&king long?

Well Johnny boy - I guess you just couldn't take the pledge

Sorry, to see an opportunity, like this, pass you by.

Remember, opportunity only knocks once. Don't expect much support from this place when your coronary hits or the stroke strikes.

Going once, Going twice, GONE like a corpulent corpse in the incinerator.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 02:24 AM

Guest=No, I have gained about a stone, No, I have not given up the beer, Yes I have considerably reduced my consumption of meat, (I no longer eat beef-burgers, and I now eat very little red meat), I play sport regulary, (pool, darts and dominoes).john
Gargy-I am stil waiting for you to answer my questions (posted 2 days ago) in the "Latest Swindle" thread, that you have just posted to.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 10:57 PM

What are your favorite vegitables, John from Hull.

So, what was so awful about Hull that you are forced to leave your identity?

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 11:11 PM

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 12:04 AM

Waiting

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 12:22 AM

Someone, is Absolutely Brillant here and it ain't the guest.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 01:01 AM

You spelled vegetables wrong Guest!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 04:18 AM

bad keyboard bad

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 04:34 AM

And favourite!

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: beadie
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 10:00 AM

I read an article in the news the other day that said a group of vegans issued a press release condemning the consumption be humans of honey. It seems these folks believe that the oppressed worker bees are being exploited even further when we eat the product of their labor.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 01:41 AM

Give us your diet for this week John

You are starting to work with us...

this is good...keep it up....we WILL work with you.

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 01:39 AM

Subject: RE: BS: vegetarians ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 01:56 AM

Breakfast-Beans on toast
lunch -Jacket potato with beans
Tea-spicy beanburgers