Luthiary Question

Subject: Luthiary Question
From: BK
Date: 28 May 01 - 11:14 PM

I'm guessing some of y'all know some answers; I have several guitars w/the new style "satin" (ie, dull!!!) finish. It hasn't grown on me at all, 'n I notice on the neck of my ~5 yr old Martin D-M there is a lovely glossy shine where my hand encounters it. This shine is great looking & in striking contrast to the drab dullness of the rest of the guitar.

So: what simple technique can I use (other than years of rubbing my hands on the wood -all over the guitar- suggested by some of the cut-ups at the thursday jam session) to engender a similar lusterous shine on the rest of the guitar. I can put a decent buffing wheel on my big bench grinder, and...?

Cheers, BK

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 May 01 - 11:28 PM

Ah, the rich patina of age. Ain't nothing can duplicate that except 20 years of stroking or 15 coats of yatch varnish.

LTS

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: DonMeixner
Date: 28 May 01 - 11:48 PM

BK,

I have thought about this very question for some several seconds and my reply is. If you like the sound and sound is more important than looks. Don't even try.

Don

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 May 01 - 12:04 AM

Don't know much about guitars, but the Advice to Violinists/Fiddlers is just as Don said: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. You will also totally ruin the "re-sale" value if you re finish it.

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: Mad Tom
Date: 29 May 01 - 03:42 AM

One of the first rules of antique restoration is "Do no harm". Even if it's only 5 years old, don't do anything that cannot be reversed.

One such thing that is reversible is to polish it with carnauba paste wax, although I've never tried it on a guitar.

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: mooman
Date: 29 May 01 - 03:58 AM

It is a major luthier job to refinish it properly in a gloss finish and it may well adversely affect the value of the instrument as others have indicated.

Unless it really grates on you I would tend to leave it as it is. If you must have it done be sure to go to a reputable luthier. I don't think carnauba wax is advisable on a satin finish.

Personally I prefer the satin finish, I guess it comes down to personal taste!

Best regards,

mooman

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 May 01 - 04:24 AM

The question is already answered, but just to let you know, the reason a satin is a satin is because of an agent in the lacquer that acts as a leveler and prevents it from shining so the only solution is a refinish (as stated). Don't do it.

Some fine basic finish info at FRETS.COM

Spaw

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: John P
Date: 29 May 01 - 09:21 AM

It would be easier and less expensive to sell the guitar and get one you like the looks of than to refinish your existing guitar.

JP

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: Bluebelle
Date: 29 May 01 - 11:48 AM

As stated above, refinishing is major luthier work. You have to remember the depth of the wood, which is why there is bracing underneath. Glossing will definitely change the sound. Leave it, as is. If, in a few years, if it increases substantially in value, the aging marks will add to it. Take a look at some of the old "bones" and pre-war D-18's. They are pretty worn looking, but sound wonderful and can cost upwards to $160,000. Okay, so the $160,000 one was in mint condition.

As for finish stress, I would be more concerned with the part of your arm that comes in contact with the lower bout of the guitar. Perspiration/sweat can ruin a guitar's finish. There are devices to keep your arm from resting on the guitar. The best device I've seen is to cut off the toe part of a tube sock and pull it over your right elbow (assuming you're right-handed)so it covers that part of your arm that rests on the guitar.

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: Justa Picker
Date: 29 May 01 - 12:04 PM

Agree with the above, but just a minor correction on values. The only vintage Martin in excellent condition that can command the prices as mentioned above is a pre-war D-45, of which only 91 were ever made. Elderly recently had one which went for $140,000.00 and it wasn't mint, and had a few repaired cracks.

A pre-war D-28 in excellent all-original condition is in the 40K range, and a D-18 in similar condition would command between 18 and 20K. Old worn, pre-war bones would be in the 18-25K range...with D-18's of similar age and shape to be in the range of 12-18K.

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 01 - 12:07 PM

-I'd- contact LaSiDo... the makers of Seagull guitars... all my Seagulls (I'm up to 4 now) have satin finishes and I wouldn't change it for the world...

But if you want to, they might have some good advice for ya!

Good Luck eh!

;-)

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: Gary T
Date: 29 May 01 - 01:49 PM

Just a reminder to never put wax, or anything that could leave a residue, on the TOP of the guitar. It's likely to adversely affect the sound, and may be very difficult to remove.

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: GUEST,Phillip
Date: 29 May 01 - 02:08 PM

It is JUST FINE to put a reasonable amount of wax on a lacquer finished instrument. (or varnished for that matter) Old editions of The Strad magazine reccommended good old Johnson's paste wax for this precise purpose, but there are several commercial concoctions on the market these days. Bruce Petros at www.petrosguitars.com makes an excellent proprietary polish that contains carnauba wax, a hard vegetable based wax that can be buffed to an incredibly thin coat. If it's good enough for a Stradivarius, it's good enough for a Martin. Make sure to use sparingly and to buff well. And if you do get a buildup, naphtha will remove it nicely without hurting the finish. I have sprayed acres of lacquer (literally) on instruments and furniture and to hear the opinion that wax will hurt a lacquered finish or affect the tone is just a bit precious! It will not appreciably affect the gloss sheen of the finish. 'spaw has it right in the post above, gloss needs to be addressed at the time of spraying.

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: Gary T
Date: 29 May 01 - 02:22 PM

I don't have your experience, Phillip. I was repeating instructions that came with a new satin finish guitar. I figured the manufacturer knew what he was talking about.

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: GUEST,Phillip
Date: 29 May 01 - 02:36 PM

There's been a big kerfuffle over at the forum at acousticguitar.com recently about polishes and the harm that they'll do or not do. Check it out and draw your own conclusions. The only thing I wouldn't put on a guitar is anything that contains silicone. Not that it would hurt the guitar in ANY way, but that it contaminates the surface of the lacquer with minute bits of silicone which are almost impossible to remove. The problem arises if the need to refinish ever does arise. The bits of silicone will float to the surface of a newly applied coat of lacquer and affect the surface tension of the liquid coat and cause a "fish-eye". Almost impossible to respray without adding even more silicone to the mix to even out the surface tension of the entire coat. It's an evil cycle. "Pledge" and other such furniture polishes are the chief culprits. Avoid them on your guitars!

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 May 01 - 08:16 PM

Making a finish with a satin effect can be achieved in two ways. One way is using a finish labeled as satin , where the manufacturer has added a compound that is composed of small opaque particles that scatter the light and prevents complete surface reflection.. Clear finishes are normally, satin, semi-gloss or gloss.

The second way to create a satin finish is to create small scratches in gloss lacquer or varnish. The scratches in the finish surface scatter reflected light and are created with fine sandpaper, steel-wool, or a coarse polishing compound like pumice powder. The coarseness of the method determines the degree of gloss achieved. A matte surface can be produced with something like 600 grit sandpaper, 3/0 steel wool or pumice. A satin surface can be made by taking the polishing a step further such as using rottenstone over a pumice polished surface, using 1,000 grit sandpaper over a 600 grit, or using 4/0 steel wool over 3/0.

Murray

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: Mad Tom
Date: 29 May 01 - 11:34 PM

While we're at it, let's convince Willie Nelson to put some duct tape over the holes in that old beater of his.

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: Stevangelist
Date: 30 May 01 - 01:21 AM

Hey Tom... Willie is a friend of mine and he will NEVER touch that hole in the soundboard... people have tried and tried to fix it and it just gets worn out again cause he does what so many people with expensive guitar collections don't (or can't) do... he PLAYS it.

May The Road Rise To Meet You,

Stevangelist

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: Owlkat
Date: 30 May 01 - 03:57 AM

One shop I worked in used Meguiars Mirror Glaze #9 Swirl Remover to remove scratches and gunge from the surface of instruments and make them shiny and new looking. CAREFULLY USED, it brings out the shine in matte lacquer finishes. My new Larrivee has a matte finish on it (really hate it) but is coming up shiny on the neck where I play it, so I'll probably buff up the whole guitar to get the nice gloss on it that will also bring out the wood grain nicely. It's up to you. If you want to polish your guitar, there are guitar polishes on the market that work just fine. They are, after all, formulated to be used on lacquer finishes. There's nothing wrong with a protective coat on the instrument, especially if you have very acidic sweat. Also, just because the guitar says Martin on the headstock doesn't mean you have to put it in a shrine. It's just a guitar. Play it. Enjoy it. If you like shiny, then make it shiny. If you want to invest money in something, try soybean futures. Investing in guitar futures is evil.

Subject: RE: Luthiary Question
From: BK
Date: 02 Jun 01 - 12:04 PM

'Catters:

Thanks for the many responses so far; My only intention is to polish the existing finish to be like it is on the neck (which also makes the grain of the mahogany look great!).

Owlkat: You know how I feel....

Is this one of the Meguiars automotive polish products, or something special for musical instruments? Would you mount a cloth buffer wheel, as I can on my big grinder, or use some kind of hand-held buffer?

I used judicious amounts of hi quality (usually Carnuba) car waxes for my shiny guitars for years & never had any problems - looks great!

Thanx, BK