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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known during Civil War? From: MartinRyan Date: 18 Oct 14 - 05:29 PM Same as she would have done anywhere else! ;>)> Regards |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known during Civil War? From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Oct 14 - 03:24 PM If this was really an Irish song, what was Lily doing with all the Men of the West? |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known during Civil War? From: MartinRyan Date: 18 Oct 14 - 03:47 AM Not as commonly sung at Irish sessions nowadays as previously. The wonderful Nellie Weldon regularly sings a "Flora" version and (the not-so-wonderful) Martin Ryan sings a "Molly" version which he thinks he learned, indirectly, from Dan Milner! Regards |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known during Civil War? From: Mrrzy Date: 17 Oct 14 - 11:12 PM LOL, Joe! Took me a second! |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known during Civil War? From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Oct 14 - 09:50 PM Dan Milner and Mark Knopfler sing "Molly-o" versions, and McCurdy sings "Mary." And many sing "Flora." Any others? "And I loved my faithless Mrrzzy, the Lily of the West...." |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known during Civil War? From: GUEST Date: 17 Oct 14 - 09:32 PM It turns out there are more recordings of Anne Byrne and Jesse Owens on YouTube. And searching for them led me to another terrific group I've never heard of, from that same era - Ludlow's Ballad Group - Butcher's Boy. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known during Civil War? From: GUEST Date: 17 Oct 14 - 08:31 PM Thanks, Martin. I didn't realize there were more comments. Now that I've read through them all, I see that it's not likely that I'll find more recordings of this wonderful pair. The comments say that Mary Black owns all of Anne Byrne's recordings and refuses to let anyone hear them. Very strange. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known during Civil War? From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 17 Oct 14 - 01:23 PM And I forgot to say Thank you, Mad Maudlin, for paying attention to this kind of chronological detail, it bugs me when they get that kind of thing wrong. My dad was bothered by the music of The Sting which he felt was anachronostic. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known during Civil War? From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 17 Oct 14 - 01:21 PM Ed McCurdy did the only version I know where her name isn't Flora, but handsome Mary, the Lily of the West. Mentioned in this thread. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known during Civil War? From: MartinRyan Date: 17 Oct 14 - 12:53 PM The Youtube comments identify them as the Irish duo Jesse Owens and Anne Byrne - and I think they're right. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: GUEST Date: 16 Oct 14 - 08:08 PM Does anyone recognize the two people singing Lily of the West in 1967 on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgBmvwyqaCI? I'd like to hear more by them, but they're not identified and they don't look or sound like anyone I can think of. |
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Subject: ADD Version: Lily of the West (U.S., 1860) From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Oct 14 - 07:34 PM I thought the "Louisville" lyrics were recent, maybe an invention of Peter, Paul and Mary. Not so. The American Memory Collection at the Library of Congress has a broadside dated 1860. Here are the lyrics: THE LILY OF THE WEST I just came down from Louisville, some pleasure for to find; A handsome girl from Michigan, so pleasing to my mind; Her rosy cheeks and rolling eyes, like arrows, pierced my breast; They call her handsome Mary--the Lily of the West. I courted her for many a day, her love I thought to gain; Too soon, too soon she slighted me: which caused me grief and pain. She robbed me of my liberty--deprived me of my rest; They call her handsome Mary--the Lily of the West. One evening, as I rambled down by yon shady grove, I met a Lord of high degree, conversing with my love; He sang, he sang so merrily, whilst I was sore oppressed, He sang for handsome Mary--the Lily of the West. I rushed up to my rival, a dagger in my hand, I tore him from my true love, and boldly bade him stand; Being mad to desperation, my dagger pierced his breast, I was betrayed by Mary--the Lily of the West. Now my trial has come on, and sentenced soon I'll be; They put me in the criminal box, and there convicted me. She so deceived the Jury, so modestly did dress, She far outshine bright Venus--the Lily of the West. Since then I've gained my liberty, I'll rove the country through; I'll travel the city over, to find my loved one true; Although she stole my liberty, and deprived me of my rest, Still I love my Mary--the Lily of the West. H. DE MARSAN. Songs, Ballads, toy books. 38 & 60 Chatham St. N. Y. E.A. Sparks Border--The Trapper. ENTERED according to Act of Congress, in the year 1860, by H. DE MARSAN, In the Clerk's office of the District Court of the United States, for the Southern District of New York. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: GUEST,Q Date: 04 Feb 03 - 01:22 PM My first should have been thread 13755: Lily |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: GUEST,Q Date: 04 Feb 03 - 01:20 PM Nothing to do with Lily Langtry. The song has been discussed in threads here. Thread 13775: Lily Thread 15769: Lily Thread 34906: Lily Thread 52047: Lily Thread 34906 has a post by Malcolm Douglas that pretty well summarizes knowledge about this song (31 May 01). Also see his post of 01 Jun 01) in the same thread. A continuing problem is identification of the tunes associated with some of the versions. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: GUEST Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:54 PM Would the song have anything to do with Lily Langtry? Judge Roy Bean was infatuated with the actress, and he named the town of Langtry in west Texas after her. That would have been in the 1880's though, I think. Might be something to check out. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: greg stephens Date: 04 Feb 03 - 08:06 AM I should be very wary of trying to make date deductions from references to Louisville being in the west, or whatever. You cannot assume that folksingers are totally au fait with prevalent notions of geography. Just remember, Robert johnson was quite convinced that Chicago was in California in "Sweet Home Chicago". |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Orac Date: 04 Feb 03 - 07:08 AM This is a British song that has emigrated to the US and has mearly had the places changes as has happended with lots of other songs. The reference to the "West" is in the original song and has no historical connection with America whatsoever so trying to date it by looking at what the "West" meant in the US during the 1800's is rediculous. One of the Bodleian Broadsides attributes the song to a George Brown but how true that is who knows. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Sophie Date: 03 Feb 03 - 04:00 PM Show of Hands have done an excellent recording of this song, although I'm not sure if it's the same tune as the Joan Baez one, which I haven't heard for donkey's years. They've Angilicised it though - the words are mostly the same but it starts "When first I came to England..." |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: GUEST,Q Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:52 PM Lyr. Add: BATTLE OF BELMONT (air: Lillie of the West I sing of the Battle of Bellmont, twas near Columbus town, The Yankees in great numbers from Cairo did come down, The 7th day of November in the year of '61, They matched us in Missouri with numbers five to one, They matched us in Missouri with numbers five to one. Our boys they bravely fought them and many they did slay, But overpowered and outnumbered they were forced to give way, They captured Watson's battery and thought the Battle o'er, When the 11th Louisiana came from old Kentucky's shore, When the 11th Louisiana came from old Kentucky's shore. Twas there we took them by the flank and poured a deadly fire, And when we gave a dozen rounds, we forced them to retire; We followed them for several miles , their dead did strew the ground, Their knapsacks and provisions were scattered all around,- Their knapsacks and provisions were scattered all around. If our provisions e'er got scarce, I vow we have a fight, We're sure to get a dinner boys when Yankees take to flight; Our Cavalry caught them at their boats, and slaughtered them like sheep, Oh, there's many a northern lady, for her lover now doth weep,- Oh, there's many a northern lady for her lover now does weep. They hastened back to Cairo, where they now had best remain, For we'er (sic) prepared to meet them, if they e'er should come again; So Abe you'd better summer [simmer] down, and lay aside your plans, For Southern boys can ne'er be whipped as Yankees steal their land,- For Southern boys can ne'er be whipped as Yankees steal their land. @Civil War @Southern @Cairo, IL. There are few Civil War period poems or songs about the war in this region. A broadside in American Memory, Nineteenth-Century Song Sheets, Item 7 of 500, no date or publisher but likely between 1861 and 1864. Air given as Lillie of the West. I have seen a song (by Art Thieme?) which mentions the Customs House at Cairo during the Civil War. The Customs House was built after the Civil War (1870s) as a division of the New Orleans Customs Collection region. Thread 40586: CAIRO |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: GUEST,Q Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:10 PM In American Memory, among Civil War Song Sheets, Series 2, Vol. 1 (found looking for material on Cairo, IL) is the song, "The Battle of Belmont," set to the tune "Lillie of the West." It is a broadside, Southern side. No date or publisher, but between 1861-1864, about an event Nov. 7, 1861 |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Brían Date: 03 Oct 02 - 09:55 AM I have a version almost identical to the one cited above by Malcolm from Songs and Ballads from Nova Scotia collected by Helen Creighton. Although it doesen't state how long it had been sung in that area, it does give a reference to Baring-Gould No. 58 with the variant beginnig"When first I came to England." A note accompanying it says the ballad had clearly an Irish origin. It used to be sung at the Revel at St. Breward's on the Bodmin Moors, and can be traced back there to 1839. The melody is not LAKES OF PONCHATRAIN. If I am clever, I can figure out how to make a midi and send it later. Brían (Thanking the Powers that Be for the preview feature) |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Mad Maudlin Date: 02 Jun 01 - 02:44 AM Hmmm...or just play it safe and simply say, "He was [insert activity] and humming 'The Lily of the West'." :-) No, I'll use the text you gave me, Malcolm. Thanks a lot! Nathalie |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 01 Jun 01 - 09:27 PM That's a good point. The closest I can get to it depends on educated guesses; given that De Marsan printed a broadside around 1860 set to the tune of Lily of the West, it should follow that the song itself had been published a little earlier. The Lily of the West songsheets I mentioned at America Singing all have pretty much the same text; the only one that mentions a date is the De Marsan copy, which states "entered according to act of Congress in the year 1860". Unless someone can give more specific information, that looks like the best bet for a text that will have been in circulation in the civil war years. The Lily of the West Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Chicken Charlie Date: 01 Jun 01 - 03:34 PM Wait a minute. Bob Dylan likewise has another city in place of "Ireland." Given the late date of the Baez and Dylan recordings, my thought is, "That Don't Mean Nothin." I frequently localize place names in songs depending on where I am and how much I like the place. I believe this is just a folk-ism, but as retrospective "history" it would be wrong for anyone to use that to argue for the provenance of the song. The logic was good, but the major premise is shaky. Mad Maudlin--yes, but. Depending on how pure you aim to be, there is still a question of which version it was that was printed in 1858. CC |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 01 Jun 01 - 11:54 AM Funny, Malcolm, I thought ddw referred to the text in his post, and so I thought a post of the lyrics might help. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Mad Maudlin Date: 01 Jun 01 - 08:29 AM David, you're right. The fact that those two cities were referred to as "west" should have given me the idea that it predates the Civil War. Duh! Malcolm, thanks for all those links! |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 01 Jun 01 - 08:13 AM As a rule it's better not to copy-and-paste DT entries into the Forum; it makes life harder for the harvesters and for people trying to help later enquirers. A simple link to the file is usually sufficient, particularly where the discussion doesn't require that the text be referred to. So that nobody feels tempted to repost any other sets, here are links to what we already have: Flora, The lily of the West Text recorded by Joan Baez, as reproduced above. No traditional source named. The Lily of the west As recorded by Knopfler; no traditional source named; plus another copy-and-paste job from the DT. Lily of the West - history of Flora Lily of the West Some lines quoted from the set published by Colm O Lochlainn. Flora, the Lily of the West - Chords? Looking for the lyrics to a song on the... Words from Knopfler record again. The Lily of the Net Parody by Holly Tannen. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 01 Jun 01 - 01:03 AM from the DT FLORA THE LILY OF THE WEST
When first I came to Louisville
I courted lovely Flora
Way down in yonder shady grove
I stepped up to my rival
I had to stand my trial
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: ddw Date: 01 Jun 01 - 12:49 AM Just a thought.... The Joan Baez version of this song starts "When first I came to Louisville...." If Louisville and Lexington were "the west," the song certainly predates the Civil War — by which time Texas and much of the rest of what is now the western U.S. was already being settled — albeit some still as territories. david |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Mad Maudlin Date: 01 Jun 01 - 12:40 AM Clinton - okay, I'll go and buy it and it's all your fault :-))) Again, thanks all of you, it's just amazing how many things you know! Isn't the Mudcat great? |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: GUEST,Les B Date: 31 May 01 - 04:56 PM I have seen a diary/journal reference of "Lily of the West" being played by a traveler on the way to the Montana gold fields (Virginia City) in about 1863 - the middle of the Civil War. No words or melody are given. Interestingly, one of the American 19th Century song sheets that Malcolm references has in the opening -- "When first I came from Michigan..." -- which in other Civil war era references is sometimes referred to as the "Great Northwest." |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Liam's Brother Date: 31 May 01 - 04:42 PM Good work, Malcolm! |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Kim C Date: 31 May 01 - 04:32 PM oooooh..... then you are really missing something! That Long Black Veil album is one of my very favorites. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Mad Maudlin Date: 31 May 01 - 04:26 PM Thanks, folks, since I'm only planning to quote the words the tune doesn't matter. Thanks for all the info anyway, it's always nice to learn something about favourite songs! Clinton - I don't know the M. Knopfler version... |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Chicken Charlie Date: 31 May 01 - 01:57 PM Yes. The song had definitely immigrated by 1858; I believe I got that date from a citation of sheet music. It was printed in America in that year. Now, what I have not gotten into is whether in that version he got off (A flaw was in my indictment found, and that soon had me free....) or whether he went to the gallows still smitten by the L/W. I would guess that the version where the Irish Civil Liberties Union lawyer gets him off on a technicality is later, but I do not know that part for a fact. PS Sang it at a gig last night. Great melody. CC |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 31 May 01 - 01:18 PM There are a number of broadside copies at Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads, all printed in Dublin. Most appear to be from the late 1860s. There's a copy of T. Gannon's The Deserted Seamstress, printed c. 1860 by H. De Marsan of 38 & 60, Chatham Street, New York, which is set "to the tune of Lily of the West". This would suggest that the song was reasonably well-known in America at that time, but of course it doesn't tell us which Lily of the West tune it was. There are a number of songsheet sets of Lily of the West (all undated) at America Singing: Nineteenth-Century Song Sheets, most of which prescribe Caroline of Edinburgh Town as melody; for some more on the various melodies associated with that song, see Caroline of Edinburg Town. Although it does seem clear that Lily of the West was known in America at the time of the Civil War, the question of the tune is another matter; it may perhaps be that one of the Caroline tunes might be a more "authentic" choice than the Ponchartrain melody. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 31 May 01 - 12:45 PM Like the version that Mark Knophler does on "Long Black Vale"? |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Liam's Brother Date: 31 May 01 - 09:54 AM Both Catholic Irish and Scotch-Irish were actively emigrating to the USA during the period 1820-1830 (the Scotch-Irish, of course, came in large numbers earlier and Catholic Irish later). I think you are quite safe assuming that the song was established in the USA by 1861.
All the best, |
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Subject: RE: Help: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: IanC Date: 31 May 01 - 08:00 AM This is what The Contemplator has to say. Lily, the unfaithful lover has appeared in English street ballads (broadside ballads) for more than 100 years. The tune is similar to Lakes of Pontchartrain. Although this version of the ballad is identified with the American West, Rev. S. Baring-Gould collected versions of Lily of the West in Devonshire, Yorkshire and elsewhere. Baring-Gould felt the ballad was of definite Irish origin (though it may not have been sung to a similar air) and traced it back to at least 1839. The lyrics in Sam Henry's Songs of the People are an Irish version which begins; "When first I came to Ireland..." Another theory of it's origin traces it back to the West of Ireland during the time of Cromwell.
Cheers! |
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Subject: 'Lily of the West' known dur.Civil War? From: Mad Maudlin Date: 31 May 01 - 07:47 AM Hello all, I'm planning to write a story that is set in the American Civil War, and since it's one of my favourite songs I'd like to quote "The Lily of the West" in it - the version Joan Baez sang, whose melody resembles "The Lakes of Pontchartrain" (my songbook only says this version is from Ohio). Does anyone know if it was known there and then? (Somebody stated in the forum that it made its first appearance in the 1830s, but that was in Ireland if I'm not mistaken.) Thanks in advance! Nathalie |
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