Lizzie Borden Anniversary

Subject: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Fiolar
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 06:01 AM

Today June 1st is the anniversary of the death of the alleged axe murderess Lizzie Borden (1860 - 1927) who "took an axe and gave her mother forty whacks; And when she saw what she had done, she gave her father forty-one." In fact the body of her father only got eleven "whacks" while it was her step-mother and not her mother who got twenty-one. Was she really the killer? and if so how did she escape the murder charge. Or was there someone else as she always maintained?

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Banjer
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 06:09 AM

She probably did do it. The jury must have taken pity on her because after all, the poor child was an orphan!

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 07:41 AM

OK--let's hear suggestions for msuic/songs to be played at the commemorative party! I'll kick off with "The Woodchopper's Ball".

Steve

P.S. I don't mean to hi-jack this thread! Please answer the original question as well. My answer: what would I know? I was four thousand miles away at the time, and anyway, I wasn't even born!

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: JedMarum
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 08:38 AM

I was born in Fall River (where the gruesome events took place). My grandmother who lived near the Bordens was always convinced that Lizzie did it, as much of the town was. Apparently Lizzie lived out the rest of her life quietly and uneventfully, as far as the townsfolk knew.

I never heard of any credible alternative suspects, although I know there was some. It seems likely that Miss Lizzie did it, and managed to stay out of trouble for the rest of her days.

I guess this is one of those mysteries we'll never solve; an early 20th century OJ story, if you will.

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 09:52 AM

Both of A'nt Mahtha's Parents grew up in Fall River.
Her Father used to deliver Lizzie's paper as a lad, and related how she was a reclusive, cranky old spinster who most people were afraid of (perhaps for good reason) and generally to be avoided by children. He says that the kids, on a dare, would sometimes run by her house singing that very "...took an axe..." song, whereupon she would sometimes emerge screaming and cursing at them, in which they took great delight.

If you ever wanted to get "Nanna" SWETT wound up like a 9-day clock and assure a spirited conversation for an hour or so, one (usually my Wife, a notorious family instigator) would make the triggering comment; "Lizzie Borden was innocent, you know..."

"She is NOT!!! (banging the table with her wizzled little fist) She was GUILTY AS SIN!!!..."

And off we would go. According to "Nanna" (and at least one book we have read on the subject), there was a lot of money in the family, which Lizzie used to good advantage, hiring one of the best Lawyers available at the time (sort of a prelude to the "O.J." debacle) and sent the star witness, an Irish Maid, back to Ireland and essentially out of the grasp of the Court. Forensic evidence not being as conclusive back then, and rumors of witness / jury tampering rampant, prosecution sort of fell apart and conviction never materialized. Again like "OJ", popular speculation in the Fall River Community concluded that she had "bought herself off" and treated her accordingly. So apparantly she ended up for all intents and purposes serving a life sentence under virtual house arrest... a modicum of "justice", we may suppose... if in fact "Nanna" was correct.

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: LR Mole
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 10:02 AM

Ax Me Mama? Don't Fear the Reaper? Whack Fol the Diddle? Borden the U.S.A.?

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Les from Hull
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 10:54 AM

Round the house and mind the furniture?

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 11:52 AM

I hope Matt shows up here. I remember he has an interesting take on it.

If I recall, Lizzie B was fairly reclusive even before it all happened.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 12:27 PM

I read a book about this some years ago... I don't even remember what the writer's take on it was. It seems like maybe he thought the housekeeper had done it. I'm not even sure I remember what I thought about it. I think it's certainly possible that she could have done it... but how she could have done it only once and never again seems a little odd to me. But I don't know...

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: harpmolly
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 12:49 PM

Angela Carter wrote a great story called "The Fall River Axe Murders," which is about the Borden family, and takes place the morning of the murders--but she doesn't actually show the murders themselves, just the circumstances that may have led up to them. She has a wonderfully surreal writing style. It's a great story. Of course, I adore Angela Carter, so maybe I'm biased. (Check out her collection "The Bloody Chamber," if you like twisted fairy tales.)

yet more thread creep! woohoo! :D

M

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 01:01 PM

I heard Lizzie later became a trumpet player; she had the right chops.

She gave up growing chickens, though. She had one chicken die, and she was left with the egg, and couldn't hatchet.

Once in a seance, she asked her father if he wanted to say anything. His response, "Why do you axe me?"

Alex

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 02:07 PM

Is there an emoticon for rolling eyes? Because if there was, I'd have to post it. :-D

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 02:24 PM

I've always been interested in this case and read several books over the years, none of them conclusive, as I recall. The movie, in which Elizabeth Montgomery of "Bewitched" fame, acted as Lizzie, was very well done, I thought.

Now, she could probably use abuse as a good defense. One of those books did seem to indicate that her father and step-mother were overly strict and I think that may have been partly why she was considered reclusive, even before.

I've seen pictures of the house in which she spent the rest of her life; it looked quite nice and well-to-do. Didn't her sister live with her?

Uncle Jaque, that a treasure trove! I hope those memories are written down or on tape, either theirs or yours of theirs!

kat

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: paddymac
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 02:39 PM

I loved the CMT rendition of the song, but never bothered digging into the story. There is a certain air about it that makes me think Kat has the right idea - about abusive relationships being involved.

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 02:54 PM

She was aquitted by judge and jury. 'Nuff said.

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: harpmolly
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 03:04 PM

Dicho: So was OJ. ;)

In the Carter story, she describes the oppressive heat and humidity (which, coupled with the heavy corsets and layers of their clothing, would drive anyone to distraction), as well as the fact that Lizzie kept pigeons, which her father had recently had killed so her stepmother could eat them in a pie. Might have sent her over the edge. ;) Then again, I haven't really read that much about the case. I don't know if Carter was using poetic license or if there is a factual basis to the circumstances in her story. Anyway, just to repeat myself, I highly recommend it.

M

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 11:17 PM

Here's all kinds of links and tons of info on Lizzie Borden. Scorll down for the links.

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Jun 01 - 10:40 PM

Does anyone know the name of the Broadway musical that featured the song sung by Chad Mitchell and Co.? There was some talk of her step mother's interference in Lizzie's marriage plans and a nasty rumor of Mama's interest in the young man. "Fall River Legend", the ballet, is based on it.

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Oversoul
Date: 02 Jun 01 - 11:37 PM

"Careful with that axe, Eugene." I always loved that song. And I bet you did too!

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Susan of DT
Date: 03 Jun 01 - 11:37 AM

The home of Lizzie Borden is now a bed-and-breakfast. The song, from New Faces of 1952, by Michael Brown (later recorded by Chad Mitchell Trio) is titled Fall River Hoedown. It's in DigiTrad.

"...you can't chop your mama up in Massachusetts..."

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: ray bucknell
Date: 03 Jun 01 - 01:48 PM

"Such a snob, I've heard it said. She met her pa and cut him dead!"

Ray

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Jun 01 - 01:33 PM

I'd forgotten about hwo you can't chop your mama up in (pause) massachusetts, thanks for the memory! I always was very interested in this story. I liked the Elizabeth Montgomery movie, telling it from various perspectives. I've never heard of any good new forensic investigation that has come close to answering the question. Can't they all be dug back up and some more data sought? Do the descendants want to know? Look at how Jesse James, and others, have been exhumed with scientists and boli and test tubes etc... I want to see this one on The Learning Channel or whatever!

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Kim C
Date: 04 Jun 01 - 04:49 PM

Well, now, I have been out in 90 degree heat in a corset and several layers of clothing and I, and air-conditioned baby, have never had the urge to chop anyone to death...

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Jun 01 - 06:30 PM

"Oh you can't chop your Momma up in Massachusetts
Then get dressed and go out for a walk (for a walk)
No you can't chop your Poppa up in Massachusetts
Massachusetts is a far cry from New York"

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden
From: GUEST,Rich M
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 10:46 AM

Does any body have the guitar chords to the Chad Mitchell Trio version of Lizzie Borden?

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Guessed
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 05:35 PM

Was she the original Axess of Evil?

Cutting wit or what?

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Gareth
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 07:24 PM

Sing Rictky Ticky Tin !

Gareth - and if yer want the Lehrer version Click 'Ere, Thought I wont be responsible for the out come

Gareth

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 15 - 09:52 PM

It's nice to know that The Lizzie Borden Chronicles premieres tonight on the Lifetime Network.

Just goes to show ya, that chopping your poppa up in Massachusetts, brings immortality.

Think about that for a while.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 04:34 AM

Will it be full of adze ?

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: LadyJean
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 08:56 PM

Apparently the Borden family had an odd relative, who butchered animals and carried a hatchet with him.

What I have always suspected is that Borden was doing something he shouldn't and got himself killed because of it. Most of the town's important citizens knew what had happened, and didn't want it getting out. So Lizzie was charged and acquitted.

Subject: RE: Lizzie Borden Anniversary
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 12:35 AM

Lizzie Borden's story shows the power of rhythm and rhyme to the human mind. Would anybody today give a thought to Lizzie if they had never heard that stupid rhyme, "Lizzie Borden took an ax..."?

Be suspicious of wisdom that rhymes. Check it out. I'm just saying.

LadyJean, you may be right.

Somebody said upthread that Lizzie might have been abused. Well, a year ago I read a book by a top FBI agent about serial killers. In the book he said two or three times that males who are abused as children turn mean and may become violent.

Females usually turn the hostility inward and destroy themselves, becoming addicts, prostitutes or suicides.