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BS: the truth will out

kendall 08 Jun 01 - 07:48 PM
Jon Freeman 08 Jun 01 - 08:00 PM
kendall 08 Jun 01 - 10:28 PM
DougR 08 Jun 01 - 10:40 PM
catspaw49 09 Jun 01 - 12:18 AM
Lonesome EJ 09 Jun 01 - 12:32 AM
Matt_R 09 Jun 01 - 03:29 PM
Lonesome EJ 09 Jun 01 - 03:54 PM
mousethief 09 Jun 01 - 06:04 PM
wdyat12 09 Jun 01 - 06:42 PM
catspaw49 09 Jun 01 - 07:41 PM
GUEST,garethwilliams@gareth72.fsnet.co.uk 09 Jun 01 - 08:12 PM
Liz the Squeak 10 Jun 01 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,UB Dan 11 Jun 01 - 09:09 AM
kendall 11 Jun 01 - 11:48 AM
mousethief 11 Jun 01 - 12:15 PM
DougR 11 Jun 01 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,UB Dan 11 Jun 01 - 12:45 PM
mousethief 11 Jun 01 - 12:45 PM
mousethief 11 Jun 01 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,UB Dan 11 Jun 01 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,UB Dan 11 Jun 01 - 02:34 PM
mousethief 11 Jun 01 - 02:49 PM
mousethief 11 Jun 01 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,UB Dan 11 Jun 01 - 03:15 PM
mousethief 11 Jun 01 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,UB Dan 11 Jun 01 - 04:08 PM
Bert 11 Jun 01 - 07:55 PM
kendall 11 Jun 01 - 08:13 PM
kendall 11 Jun 01 - 08:25 PM
DougR 11 Jun 01 - 08:38 PM
Jon Freeman 11 Jun 01 - 09:02 PM
Matt_R 11 Jun 01 - 09:17 PM
Peg 11 Jun 01 - 09:34 PM
kendall 11 Jun 01 - 10:19 PM
DougR 11 Jun 01 - 11:43 PM
kendall 12 Jun 01 - 07:40 AM
GUEST,UB Dan 12 Jun 01 - 08:56 AM
DougR 12 Jun 01 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,UB Dan 12 Jun 01 - 01:58 PM
mousethief 12 Jun 01 - 02:58 PM
UB Ed 12 Jun 01 - 03:11 PM
kendall 12 Jun 01 - 04:47 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 07:48 PM

I dont remember saying there was a conspiracy. It is my firm belief that Bush stole the election, and I dont have to offer any proof as long as it is my opinion. I'll bet there are more mudcatters here who think as I do than who think as you do UB Dan. Claymore, that "Suzie Rottencrotch" remark does nothing to inspire respect for your profession.


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 08:00 PM

Friday today, can anyone please post what the report says in full?

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 10:28 PM

Why bother Jon? we all create our own reality anyway. Whatever it says, some will cheer, some will boo.


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: DougR
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 10:40 PM

Jon: I'm not sure the complete report is available. Just news stories based on the leaked report to news sources. It's available, probably, in every newspaper in the U. S. today. If I had a scanner, I'd scan the story but alas, I don't.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 12:18 AM

Well, I posted this awhile back and I think it fits here quite well......................from "The Rape of the A.P.E." by the late and great Allen Sherman:

*******WHY LIES ARE BETTER THAN THE TRUTH*******(A Scientific Comparison)

I. CREDIBILITY: All lies are designed to seem true. The expert liar carefully uses elements that seem probable and logical and therefore easy to believe. On the other hand, The Truth is often illogical, wildly improbable and hard to explain. Summary: Lies are more believable than the truth.

II. RELIABILITY: The Truth is spontaneous, accidental and unpredictable. Lies however can be planned in detail long in advance and are thus guaranteed to turn out just as predicted. Summary: Lies are more dependable than The Truth.

III. ECONOMY: To be The Truth, an account of a given event must be completely accurate. This requires painstaking resourcefulness, expensive research, time consuming attention to detail, complex logistics and thoroughness. In spite of all that, some people will believe it and others will not. A lie will produce the same results without all the fuss and bother. Summary: Lies are simpler than The Truth; Lies cost less than Truth in time, money, and effort.

IV. VALUE: The Truth can be found anywhere; it belongs to anyone who finds it, absolutely free. Lies are custom-made, often by experts, and the best ones are highly polished works of art. Summary: Lies are worth more money than Truth. Have you ever heard of anybody bribing a witness to tell The Truth?

V. RESPECTABILITY: A) Great fortunes have been made by selling Lies to the public. The people who sell these lies are often grateful to the gullible consumers, so they endow libraries and universities and cultural centers. B) Nobody ever made a fortune selling The Truth. First of all, as already stated, The Truth is free. The only people who will pay money for The Truth are people who are being blackmailed--and they are only buying The Truth so they can hide it before anybody else sees it. Summary: Lies lead to libraries and universities, while The Truth leads to blackmail.

VI. STABILITY: A) Take 1000 parts Truth, add 1 part Lie. Result: A Lie. B) Take 1000 parts Lie, add 1 part Truth. Result: Again, a Lie. C) Note that you can make a Lie out of The Truth, but you can't make The Truth out of a Lie. Summary: Lies are stronger and last longer than The Truth.

VII. IMAGINATION: In reporting The Truth, a person must research the precise facts and stick to them exactly as they occurred. The liar can report the same incident without doing any research, merely saying whatever comes to his mind and filling in "details" according to his fancy. Summary: Lies are more creative than The Truth.

VIII. RECOGNIZABILITY: People are accustomed to hearing lies all the time. Summary: If you tell The Truth, people will think you are lying and if you convince them you are telling The Truth, they will become suspicious. (Why is he suddenly telling The Truth? What's going on?)

IX. SUPPLY & DEMAND: In describing any given incident, only one version can be The Truth, whereas the number of Lies possible is unlimited. Obviously, Lies are in far greater supply than The Truth. Frankly, there is a great demand for Lies, if they are flattering, if they build up one's hopes, if they help one escape reality, or if they promise wealth, health, power, or potency. Nobody is very anxious to hear The Truth. The only people who demand The Truth are those who are investigating something (lawyers, etc.)--and they only want The Truth to prove somebody is lying. Summary: Lies are the acceptable medium of exchange in our society. They are in good supply and the demand for them remains strong. The Truth is in extremely short supply and even this tiny supply far exceeds the demand. Thus in our society, The Truth occupies a position identical to that of dinosaur shit.

CONCLUSION: Lies are superior to The Truth in numerous ways. Lies are ingenious; Lies make the world seem more pleasant; Lies are less embarrassing than Truth and less frightening. Furthermore, in fields such as diplomacy, statesmanship, merchandising, advertising, public realtions, and bookkeeping, The Truth is an out-and-out handicap. In friendship, Truth is harmful; in love, it is disastrous. The Truth is that The Truth has become old fashioned. Its full of odd shaped little nooks and crannies like so many old fashioned things; some people find them fascinating, but most people find them a pain in the neck. To find all the joys that go along with handling of and handing on The Truth is a labor of love, but most of us in today's society have no time for such things.

************************************************ ********

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 12:32 AM

I'm still baffled that Matt referred to me and MT as a "congregation of politic wurms". Is it a line from some ELO song? Yes?

PS : Caesar's Palace, Morning Glory, Silly Human Race?


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Matt_R
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 03:29 PM

OK...here's the train of thought, lol...

You and Alex were talking about politics.
There is a Yes song called "Wurm".
So I combined them into the quote from Hamlet: "a certain congregation of politic worms are e'en at him".

There y'are!

--Matt


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 03:54 PM

Matt the Obscure.


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 06:04 PM

I got the Yes connection, just not the Hamlet connection.

alex


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: wdyat12
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 06:42 PM

The Truth is the Truth. Lies are Lies.

It can't happen here?

wdyat12


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 07:41 PM

Yeah wdyat, but lies are better.......I've given you scientific documentation!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,garethwilliams@gareth72.fsnet.co.uk
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 08:12 PM

Having spent the last few weeks involved in the UK General Election, as a Party Hack (trans Ward Heeler) I can happlly say at least the organization and Conduct by the Officials is fair.

Just remember what Uncle Joe was reputed to say - " It's not the Vote that counts, it's who counts the Votes ".

Whilst the conduct and method of US of A elections is a matter for the US of A, on the basis of what was reported in the UK press I fear WW Bush's election has no credebility, or legitimacy in my eyes. And the trouble is he is our president too !

Forward to the United Counties of Europe !

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Jun 01 - 05:22 AM

"An allegation has been received from a person in the house that one of the male officers broke wind and did not apologize to the family for his action...the complainant felt it was rude and unprofessional,"

And the sniffer dog wasn't too happy either!!!

Just a little humour in this terribly depressing thread. As I was told when Maggie got in - If you voted, fight it, if you DIDN'T vote LIVE WITH IT!

lts


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 09:09 AM

Kendall says: "I dont remember saying there was a conspiracy. It is my firm belief that Bush stole the election, and I dont have to offer any proof as long as it is my opinion. I'll bet there are more mudcatters here who think as I do than who think as you do UB Dan"

Kendall...as I said before you are entitled to your opinions on Bush. You can dislike Bush, I really don't care. Saying Bush stole the election is not, however, an opinion...it is an assertion of fact. You should either have some bases for this assertion or give up the assertion. You also say that you never said there was a conspiracy, but you still say Bush stole the election? I guess Bush didn't conspire with anyone, he single-handedly stopped voters on the way to the polls in Florida and made voting machines defunct, etc...or does the word "stole" mean something else? I don't care how many people agree or disagree with either of us. Reality is not a popularity contest. If you re-read my posts, you'll see that I don't disagree with your dislike of Bush, I disagree with you unfocused illogical arguments to support a reality you made for yourself. As you once said "Never could understand people who act like ostriches. I want to know the truth, it's the only thing I can deal with."


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 11:48 AM

We all create our own reality sir. Even you.


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 12:15 PM

"My opinion" means "what I think is true."

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 12:36 PM

Possibly, Alex, but if facts are available, wouldn't one think that one's opinion would be based on those facts? Example: were I to say, "in my opinion, the South won the Civil War my judgement might be questioned because the facts do not support the argument (opinion). **BG**


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 12:45 PM

"Freedom is the ability to say that 2+2=4" -George Orwell

If we create our own realities and truth and opinion are the same thing...then how come I can't make you logical just by thinking that you should be. Truth is not opinion...and conversely opinion is not truth. Sometimes they coincide, and generally people at least go through the motions of trying to justify one with the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 12:45 PM

Refusing to examine one's opinion and compare it to known facts is a course of action which lacks that ephemeral quality known as "intellectual honesty."

IMHO.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 12:49 PM

UB dan, you missed the point. It's what I THINK is true. Not what IS true, but what I THINK is true. The key word here is THINK.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 01:23 PM

Alex I agree with your post about intellectual honesty...but maybe we need another word for what you keep calling opinion. I get hung up because I think of an opinion as something like "I like the color blue". I am entitled to this opinion and you cannot argue this point with me. There is not much frther discussion to be had. So if you said "I don't like Bush" I would agree that that is your opinion and you are entitled to it...amazingly, I may even agree. But when you say "The color blue cures cancer" I'd ask you for some proof...I guess this is also an opinion, but it is also a supposition. This statement requires some defense or explanation...and it should be related to the supposition. Otherwise, we should defend white supremecists or ant-semites as simply having an opinion and its okay because they believe it to be true. Or what about Son of Sam...if he believed the dog needed those people dead then is it okay.


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 02:34 PM

Hey Alex, I was just scanning some of the other threads and came upon the Happy B-Day one...after scanning it briefly, I thought that my comment in the earlier post re: suprememist and anti-semites might be misconstrued. I hadn't read that thread before and didn't realize there was such a heated argument going on. I stand by what I said in that post. but I don't want you to misunderstand my motives for saying it.

just clarifying, UB Dan


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 02:49 PM

Hmmm. To me, "I like the colour blue" isn't an opinion at all, but a statement of fact. The sort of fact it relates I guess I would call a preference -- perhaps there is a better word.

I shall have to go back to the Happy Bday... thread to see what you said.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 02:54 PM

I don't understand what you're not apologizing for, UB Dan. I don't see anything that you've said that requires a non-apology.

Alex (confused)


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 03:15 PM

Alex, I was just trying to be proactive in case there was a misunderstanding. I was worried that you might believe my statement in this thread (i.e. "Otherwise, we should defend white supremecists or ant-semites as simply having an opinion and its okay because they believe it to be true. ") would be taken as an allusion to the other thread...
I did not, however post anything to the B-day thread...I just didn't want it to creep into this discussion.

Now back to the discussion...you're right, "I like the color blue" would be a fact, because it would be a statement of my opinion. Perhaps a better analogy would have been "The color blue is nice" vs. "The color blue cures cancer". Do you understand my overall idea of the difference between opinion and supposition or am I explaining it badly. Maybe it is just semantics...but the meaning of words is all we have for communication.

I still admit that I may be missing some logical jump, but what we still seem to have is a news article about a draft report that denies any conspiracy and may or may not indicate an overzealous campaign to reduce voter fraud. This kendall says shows that no one can hide from the truth anymore...then he tells us that what the article says and what it means are two different things...then he tells us that there was widespread voter fraud and Bush stole the election...then he says that he never meant there was a conspiracy...and finally he says we all create our own realities...

Do you understand my confusion? If kendall said "The truth will out....I don't like nor do I trust Bush" I'd say more power to him, its the accusations with unrelated information and then the admonition that he doesn't need facts because we all create our own realities...that's what gets to me

Reality is the state of things as they are, rather than as they are imagined to be.

delusions - A false belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that persists despite the facts, and is not considered tenable by one's associates.

The key here to me is not that people feel like your right...but that the position is tenable..


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 03:37 PM

UB Dan: I copy you on the supremacists thing. I realize you were just citing an example. No need to go there at all.

I see what you're saying about Kendall (sorry Kendall to talk about you in the 3rd person). We do NOT create our own realities. No matter how hard you believe that the Peterbilt semi-tractor-trailer bearing down on you is really a butterfly, you're going to get smashed when it gets there, and you'd better have your will made out ON PAPER and not just in your messed-up head. Reality is external to the human mind, like it or not. No matter what Jonathan Livingston Seagull says about it. (Corollary: never get your metaphysics from an aquatic bird.)

I see what you're saying; "blue is nice" and "blue cures cancer" are two different KINDS of claims. "Being nice" (at least for colours) we call SUBjective, and "curing cancer" we call OBjective.

Of course somebody could make a mistake and think that their opinions on what colour is nice are actually OBjective (little kids do this all the time -- they argue about whose favorite colour is REALLY the best, and other things equally funny-looking to adults).

The converse error, which Kendall seems to be making, is thinking that "Bush stole the election" -- ostensibly a claim like "blue cures cancer" -- is SUBjective and thus not open to refutation and disproof. Which is -- um -- how can I put this nicely? -- hard to agree with.

Are we on the same page, UB Dan?

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 04:08 PM

YES!!! Thanks Alex. I was afraid I was either really missing something or was really not explaining myself well. You said it perfectly. The difference I was looking for was not opinion vs. fact but objective vs. subjective. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Bert
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 07:55 PM

Ah the unreal world of politics.

Fact 1. Something went wrong in the election in Florida.
Fact 2. In the REAL world, if you or I do something wrong, then we get to do it over.

Now just WHAT would have been wrong with saying "We screwed up! let's do it again properly"?


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 08:13 PM

Your example of the Peterbuilt is not a very good example. Anyone who believes that an on coming truck is a butterfly belongs in an institution. Any shrink worth his/her salt will tell you, that in matters of belief, we do create our own reality. My reality tells me that Bush stole the election. Whether or not there was a conspiracy, I dont know, but it is more likely that many people had the same idea at the same time, (do what it takes to get that smirking doofus into the White House) There were problems right here in Portland Maine, people went to vote only to find that they were listed as DEAD! Taken off the rolls! Why was it happening in the poorer section of the city? You want facts? I'll give you a fact, I DONT LIKE BUSH. Now, you nit pickers, argue with that!


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 08:25 PM

Sorry to be so prickly, I just lost a friend, a republican, when she started spouting that old crap about how FDR knew the Japanese were going to bomb Pearl Harbor. She will believe anything about a democrat if it is bad. She's never worked a day in her life or went to bed hungry. Her husband left her well off, so, she has no compassion for the less fortunate. However, the thing that pissed me off most was when she asked what I thought of the saxophone, I told her. "It sounds like a kazoo to me." She comes back with, "You dont know what you are talking about." Her lack of logic is maddening. I'm still steaming, so, Beware of the dog.


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 08:38 PM

Hmmm, Kendall, she's a republican ...and rich? Maybe she'd cotton to another Republican out Arizona way! If it means I have to listen to her blow a saxophone, though, forget it.

I will rest easier tonight, though my friend, knowing that you recognize the difference between a truck and a butterfly bearing down on you. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 09:02 PM

Umm, all very interesting. To be awkward, "I like the colour blue" is only a statement of fact if I am telling the truth and it is not a statement of preference - at least I don't think it is without something to be compared to, e.g. "I like the colour blue but green is my favourite colour".

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Matt_R
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 09:17 PM

BULLET WITH BUTTERFLY WINGS

Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage.


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: Peg
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 09:34 PM

*yawn*


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 10:19 PM

I'm glad to see that you have your sense of humor back Doug! I'm sure she would love you!


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 11:43 PM

Does she REALLY like the saxophone, Kendall?


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 07:40 AM

Yes. She plays it daily, and she even belongs to a group, or band, or whatever a bunch of sax nuts belong to! You may be surprised to hear that I have many friends who are republicans. I like them, but, I dont like their politics. However, this lady is a loss, she represents everything I dislike in narrow thinking conservatives, selfish, judgemental, anal and humorless. Doug, my friend, you are not a typical conservative!


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 08:56 AM

Kendall,
Fantastic! I don't disagree with you..you do dislike Bush and you do think something was fishy about the election.

I also really don't care if FDR knew about Pearl Harbor or not...The truth is that he did want to get the US involved in WWII and had a lot of dissention, mostly from isolationist and a bit from people who supported the Nazi agenda. He thought it was morally and politically important to get involved and he was right.

I like the sound of a saxophone - in jazz, big band, swing, rockabilly, and lots of 50's music

I don't think we MAKE our own reality but I think we do have some control over how we deal with it...(We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars - Oscar Wilde)


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: DougR
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 01:01 PM

I don't know about the FDR thing, but I noted at Barnes & Noble yesterday a new book on the subject. The author appeared (according to the information on the book jacket) to be a reputable person, and the source material appered to be legitimate. I forget the title but it was something like, What FDR knew in advance about the Pearl Harbor attack. So evidently some serious inquiry is being made.

Back to the Civil Rights Commission, another columnist wrote in today's newspaper that the preliminary report presented no evidence that faulty or subpar voting equipment was more prevelant in one area over another, and that the commission turned up no evidence of disenfranchisement for anyone. If one were to consider the voters who disqualified themselves because they voted for more than one candidate, etc. as disinfranchisement, maybe so, but that would be stretching the point I believe. The writer, John Leo, of the Universal Press Syndicate quotes Stephen Knack, an economist who studies voting issues says, "Florida is a good example of a national pattern: The largest and richest counties tend to use punch-card equipment. Nationally, (he said) 31.9% of Whites and 31.4% of Blacks live in punch-card counties.

"Testifying before Congress, Knack cited a CalTech-MIT voting study which found that punch-card systems resultin about the same number of invalid ballots as touch-screen electronic systems.

"As the Miami Herald reported last week, experts do not believe that differing voting systems were the source of the difficulty; they think that the underlying problem was the surge in first-time minority voters who did not know how to cast a ballot correctly."

Kendall, I agree, the lady does not sound like my kind of republican.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 01:58 PM

"Fact 2. In the REAL world, if you or I do something wrong, then we get to do it over. "

I want to live in bert's world!


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 02:58 PM

I like how Kendall makes his own reality about the Florida election, but gets pissed off when his friend makes her own reality about FDR and Pearl Harbor.

That's the problem with making your own reality. Much better to deal with the reality that's really there.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: UB Ed
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 03:11 PM

Yeah Alex, maybe Japan should ask for a "do over". C'mon Bert, what's Ernie gotta say about that?


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Subject: RE: BS: the truth will out
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 04:47 PM

Be honest MT, you dont like it at all! What's wrong with my believing that there was something fishy about the Florida voting, AND, that FDR would never commit such a crime? I see no inconsistency there at all. Now, if FDR believed that it was morally right to get us into the war, then where was his morality when he turned back a shipload of Jewish refugees? He DID know about the Nazis "Ethnic cleansing".


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