Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?

Subject: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 03:22 PM

My SO and I are having a disagreement about this. He loves music and did have singing and such in school, BUT he does not play an instrument.

Moi, on the otherhand, grew up playing violin and piano with a family of musicians and now play lap dulcimer.

Anyway, when I was pracitising he made a tongue in cheek comment about how I was more concerned with getting the exact notes than I was the rhythm of the piece.

I told him that's the way I was taught. You get the notes down first THEN worry about getting the timing down.

Well, it is driving him nuts. Maybe he is just more of a "beat" man or something; says it sets his teeth on edge when I slow down, go back over, or hestitate to make sure I have the right note.

So, your opinions and experiences, please?! Which do you get down first and why?

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 03:30 PM

Thanks, Kat. I am getting the same grimaces from my nephew as I practice basic guitar stuff. It makes sense to me that the rhythm is useless without the correct notes.

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 03:34 PM

exactly what is













timing?

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: campfire
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 03:41 PM

I'm with you, kat - I get the notes first, and the timing comes later. (And it does.)

It drives the man who shares my house absolutely CRAZY. He's also a "timing guy". His explanation is that you can usually tell what song it is if the timing is right, and with practice you'll get the right notes. (Mistakes are mistakes, and he'd prefer the notes to be the mistakes.)

Maybe it's a male/female thing? His daughter is taking piano and violin, and she's with us - she'll hesitate and find the right note. He'll be keeping the tempo on the table or whatever, and is "corrects" her when she hesitates, but not if she hits a "clinker" IF SHE KEEPS GOING.

The only other difference I can think of is that I usually play alone, and he quite often plays with others. In a "jam", he can join in and play "in time" and skip the notes he doesn't know, but "keep up"; I can't play along until I "know" it. My hesitations would throw others off, and that's his "complaint".

Any other opinions?

campfire

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 03:42 PM

6 of one, half dozen of the other... So long as in the end you have both good timing, and the tune down, what does it matter which comes first...

CHICKEN!!

NO! EGG!!!

CHICKEN!!!

EGG!!!

:-)

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 03:45 PM

Notes first, then the time signatures and timing of individual notes.

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 03:49 PM

I've always learned songs in anticipartion of performing them... and if you make a mistake on stage, you ABSOLUTELY DO NOT slow down to make sure you're getting the notes right... So you may as well get in the habbit of playing though your mistakes in rehearsal hall...

You also don't telelgraph your mistakes... just keep on playin'!

But as far as during the learning curve... whatever works best for you... some learn it slow and get it right then get it up to speed... some get it up to speed and clean it up on the fly...

Like I said above... just so long as it gets ya there in the end...

;-)

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Gary T
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 03:50 PM

In terms of pace, it is always recommended to get it right first and then get it up to speed--it's counterproductive to learn it wrong at the desired speed, and then to get it right. I would think that length and spacing of the notes comes in between those two aspects. Thus: First, the right notes; Second, the right length of notes and rests; Third, the right tempo.

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: GUEST,Phil Cooper
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 03:51 PM

I would come in wishy washy on this issue. Both are important. If I'm learning a tune, I slow down, speed up and try to regularize things after I get the fingering down. If I am backing my SO up on a song, or my usual singing partners for that matter, if they stop and go back, it drives me nuts. I attribute that to my inability to mind read (if I do that same thing playing by myself, I'm not bothered at all).

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 03:55 PM

You learn the letters of the alphabet first and their sounds, before you read words and their pronounciations and formulate sentences. Same thing, learning the notes first, and then the timing of them, as well as rests, etc. (from a purely technical point of view.)

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 04:06 PM

If you don't do "notes first," you have to relearn. I do that by mistake every now & then with my less than perfect ear, & forever after have to concentrate extra hard, which is a waste of all that good Feng Shui energy (TFIC). Nuances of timing come as you grow into the song.

CC

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 04:23 PM

Great consensus here, phoaks! Not!**BG** I think campfire may have hit on something. If I play with someone or sing along, I will skip or fudge notes or words I don't know and keep up with the pace.

However, when I practised with someone for concerts, we always made sure of having the tune and words down, then the actual pacing of the words, etc.

JP - I used that same argument, last night!:-)

katwithnnomoredulcimerlulliesforhimselfinbed!

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: RichM
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 04:35 PM

Then I'll be the naysayer :)

I've noticed that those who learn primarily from the written notation are those who want to learn the correct note first, and leave timing for later.

Those who learn primarily by ear,tend to give equal importance to the timing when learning. I would compare this to learning to speak--which young children learn long before the art of writing enters their heads.

Two ways to get to the same place, yes. But those who learn by ear are IMO, become better improvisors when they have developed beyond the beginner stage!

Rich

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 04:53 PM

Hold the phone... there is no RIGHT way to do anything!

What I think makes SENSE is, learn whichever one is harder for you, first, because it will be the thing that holds you back from getting the feel of the piece.

Or better yet, learn in partnership with someone who learns differently than you do, which I think is why people get married in the first place! (*G*) Then you can use and/and thinking, not either/or.

We went around and around on this too, until I stopped Hardi in the middle of a note-by-note approach last night to some new Shaker stuff, and grabbed the book, and spoke out the rhythm... ran through it twice. Then he saw how much faster he learned the fingering for the notes, having some idea what the structure would be for the phrases, see? But me, rhythm comes so easy, I have to look at pitches first. So he played those for me.

Guess what? Out of the six new pieces we had tried on our own, each doing it our own RIGHT way, THAT was the one tune that made enough sense to get stuck in my head, and that's what I want, is stuck tunes.

Kiss and make up!

*G*

~Susan

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 05:25 PM

Kat,

Learn your notes first. Especially if you are learning a new instrument as you mentioned. This helps with muscle memory and co-ordination. I'm an ear player as well as paper trained, but I find that the ear can fool you sometimes. When you learn the piece, then you can work on time and then tempo. After all that, then you can fiddle around with it for yourself. Then you are able to play how you like it and also how others play a tune as well.

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Burke
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 05:28 PM

Defending the SO, in choirs the rule is "the right note at the wrong time is a wrong note". I've had this drummed into me in the singing group I'm in now. I'd also hate it if our church organist slowed up to get a difficult chord.

I think it comes naturally to slow down & find that chord, but one does need to work on both & be able to play on through. Thinking back to typing lessons, does anyone remember the speed drills where you typed as fast as possible, sometimes even with a rhythm playing, without reference to mistakes? Then you slow down to work on accuracy, but by pushing through faster than you wanted, you did go faster when you slowed down.

I can't claim competency on an instrument but have been trying to learn pennywhistle. I try to play through at whatever tempo I've selected. If there's are notes I don't get, instead of stopping or slowing for a note or two, I try to back up & slow down a whole passage. Play the whole group of measures at a slower speed, but with all in proper rhythm to learn it, then speed it up to tempo.

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Gary T
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 05:38 PM

Since kat said "when I was practising," I envisioned a solo effort. As several have pointed out, when a group is involved it's a whole different ballgame. Synchronization is then critical.

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 05:40 PM

It helps me to learn the notes first. I try to keep a steady rhythm, but a slow tempo.

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 05:53 PM

Yep, Gary, it was solo and I agree with you.

Walking Eagle, thanks...I will forever think of myself as both paper-trained (love it!) and by ear. I thought I grew up in the best of both possible worlds, as I have an excellent ear, not only from the formal lessons, but also from mom and dad playing for dances, all of us singing together, and also working with my brother on his classical and pop stuff for so long. I guess that's partly why Rog threw me with his rhythm thing.

Anyway, I guess I should have said more. I played in orchestra from 2nd grade through high school, so I know about having to "play on" regardless of whether you have the notes or not, BUT I also remember our teachers taking us through a piece slowly, with the phrasing though getting most of the notes before we took it up to speed. Speaking of, would a race car driver drive a new track slowly first to map it out?**BG**

Also, the dulcimer and psaltery are the first instruments I have played almost entirely by ear and also that I have successfully improvised on...part of the reason I am so delighted with them! So, I am not really using paper music to learn much...I find a tune and pick it out.

It doesn't really matter, whatever works for each person, but it's been bugging me with him, so I am grateful I had you all to turn to and will share this with him, tonight.

Oh, and I told him the rhythm thing is really just his religious upbringing (he survived Catholic schools and all!)**BG** No offense intended.

Thanks a bunch,

kat

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 06:03 PM

Maybe I'm not understanding what is being said here, since most of you are saying to learn the notes first- but here goes nothing: when you have a backup to your lead instrument, I say get the timing first- practice the notes on your own time, so to speak. Because if you don't, if you persist in getting all the notes in, to the detriment of the beats per measure so that here you're putting in 3 beats, there two beats, and there 3 or 4 or 5, your backup person will go nuts. It's really not fun to keep jumping time in order to try to stay with the lead instrument.

The only exception to that rule that I'm aware of is when you and your backup are getting together just for practice, just for a learning session. And even then the whole thrust should be toward getting the measures sorted out.

Kind of like playing at a dance- more important than the right chords for the dancers is the beat.

It's also possible that I'm misunderstanding the subject. :)

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 06:04 PM

I had to think about this a bit--like the centipede when he was asked which leg he starts with. I've probably had more musical training than a civilized human being should, and I don't recall any teacher or professor ever specifying which one should do first. Whatever works.

What I do do is look through the music and get a sense of the rhythm first, then go back over it and get the correct notes, keeping the rhythm in my head as I do so. Then I play ve-e-e-e-e-ery slo-o-o-o-o-owly, and keeping the rhythm in mind, but not necessarily playing in rhythm until I know where my fingers are supposed to go. Once I'm pretty sure I know what I'm doing, I gradually speed it up. Works for me, classical, folk, or whatever -- but I'd probably drive anyone listening nuts.

Whatever does the job.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 06:10 PM

Also -- when playing with other musicians:-- know the part before going to rehearsal.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 06:19 PM

I think that is what I do, too, Don, I just haven't articulated it very well. Since I play all by my lonesome, too, it makes a difference. I always do have the timing in mind and still do the phrase even when playing slowly to learn the notes.

And, you're right about knowing the part before rehearsal.

Ebbie, who knows? Now, I am getting confused.:-) No really, I agree with what you said, I guess it's just that I play alone, so...no one to back up.

I'll have to ask my sibs about this, esp. bet, since she and I actually did perform together a couple of years ago. :-)

kat

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: mooman
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 06:49 PM

Sorry to disagree with many friends here!

To me timing is the more critical element. The odd bum note here and there is nothing like as bad to my ear as the inability to keep a good tempo.

But then I play jazz and latin percussion as well as folk and blues and learn almost exclusively by ear so I'm probably heavily biased not a proper musician anyway!

mooman

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 07:01 PM

Are(n't) we discussing timing here, rather than speed? Two very different things. (And katlaughing, if you are keeping timing in mind as you play/practice, I retract all my comments!)

I remember one year at Alaska Folk Fest, it struck a number of us that this one quite-good fiddler who did a solo set with guitar for backup was obviously used to playing by herself- she jumped all over the place. The leader of my group approached her later- upshot was that she joined us in our dance band and her playing straightened right out. Playing only by oneself *can* create a lot of bad habits.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 07:09 PM

I read RichM's post and realized that my first thought was all wet. I THINK ABOUT "notes first" because I have to be careful to get them right. I go with the flow on timing because hey, dyood, I just like feel it, ya know?? So maybe I appear to be learning notes "first," but that's because I've already internalized a good enough approximation of timing. Ergo, I really learned timing first.

There are instances in which I will go back and tweak either a note or a phrase later, so nothing is cut and dried.

For a further meditation on the question: try singing a note without pitch or a note without time. When you have that, grasshopper, come back and ask this question again. I'll be in the lotus patch, weeding.

CC

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: mooman
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 07:12 PM

Actually CC, that sound like a jolly good Zen mediation thought...I'll give it a try!

Peace

mooman

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 07:18 PM

I've had to think hard about this one... I learn by ear and I have convinced myself that timeing comes first. After I've listened to a tune, I have an idea of how it goes and to do that, I have picked the timing up. It is then I concentrate on getting the actual notes right.

One reason I can not play from music is that I can not get the timeing from music (and I know the thoery) and a succession of just notes means absolutely nothing to me.

Jon

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 07:30 PM

Jon--

I think you're where I'm at. You learn by ear, so your impulse is to say, "I've got to get the time down." My ear is evidently worse than yours, so I say, "Now what's that pitch again?" I've never known any two musicians with the same set of strengths and weaknesses. We're all different and if Kat catches us off-guard with a question like this we can only give "our" answer. I don't much like relative truths, but maybe in this case that's all we can get--????

CC

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 07:41 PM

I think so Charlie and I suspect Don summed it all up with "Whatever does the job".

My ear seems to vary a lot (I have good days and bad days) and sometimes I can spend ages trying to work out the pitch of a note. I do sometimes resort to music when that happens (I can make use of a simply written melody for that purpose).

I suppose one other thing I should say is that most of the stuff I play is jigs, reels, etc. which has got me wondering again what I really do. You pretty well know how a these tunes go in terms of timing (and often have your own feel) - perhaps it is a general drift of the melody and any oddities in timing I listen for.

Great question kat.

Jon

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: IvanB
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 07:58 PM

I hear those who've stated their uncomfortability with music not played in rhythm. It drove me nuts when my daughters would stop to get a note right, then play on when they were learning thier respective instruments. On the other hand, wrong notes really grate on me as well. When I practice a new piece, I try to play it slowly enough to get all the notes right but still play it in the correct rhythm relative to the speeed I'm playing. And, if I miss too many notes, I slow it down even further.

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 08:03 PM

When you're learning, it's no big deal to stop and start over to get the notes right. The problem is when you do it when you make a mistake after learning the tune.

I often just get the notes first as I've got the timing in my head. I have to train my fingers where to go, but when to go comes naturally. When I practice, I often do that "da da da oh shit da da" thing where you start over from the mistake. You can't do that when you play with others, which is one of the reasons sessions have been very good for my learning.

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 08:16 PM

I know that it drives me bonkers to listen to somone play or practice when they hesitate or pause as they look for the note...It doesn't necesssarily follow that pausing is always wrong when you are first learning a song/tune. But once you 'mostly' know it, I think that the timing & feel and pace are much more important than hitting every note every time. If you know the notes, then go slowly, but in time, and gradually pick up the pace. And once you think you have it, KEEP UP THE PACE! ...especially if playing with others!

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 09:55 PM

Well, I thank you all. I think I've figured out what I really do is what some of you have said. Go slowly, still keep the timing correct, until I get the notes down right, then pick it up to speed.

When I think of it, the orchestra teachers were very strict about getting the timing and the notes down, at the same time, just slower tempo to begin with; I've been doing the same thing by ear on the dulcie and psaltery.

Thanks very much, this HAS been interesting, but I'm still not gonna play him any lullies at bedtime!**BG**

kat

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 10:44 PM

The great West Virginia banjo player/teacher Dwight Diller teaches (paraphrasing here) that you set up a framework or scaffold of rhythm; then you hang the notes on it. But the rhythm is everything.

Further, he says, "If you ain't got rhythm, you ain't got nothin'!"

Of course it is to be remembered that he's teaching the banjo, which is preeminently a rhythm instrument.

DAve Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Bert
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 11:24 PM

Well it depends whether you are singing or dancing. If you are dancing or playing for dancers then you must concentrate on the timing. If you are a singer then you will probably change the timing to introduce feeling into your song. All good folksingers do this and it drives the metronome freaks nuts.

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 12:01 AM

Wal, me, I learn the chords so I can sing the durn song, and then I sings it. I'll stop and focus on a crafty chord change or a run i need to get straight while I am working it up. If I were learning a melody, picked or blown by the notes, I would stop and rework any sequence I was getting wrong, slower, until I had the bits and then string 'em together. But what i really do de facto is learn chords. The rest kinda takes care of itself.

A

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 06:22 AM

I never learn the exact notes or timing. I call it "jazz", anybody unfortunate to be in earshot is less polite!
RtS

Subject: RE: Learning Exact Notes or Timing First?
From: MMario
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 08:55 AM

since I tend to sing solo - I learn the notes, then *try* to learn the timing. (I am notorious for being unable to hold to a tempo)

If I am singing in a group - I usually concentrate more on timing. and pray like hell that there is a strong voice to "hang" off of.