Origins: Age of 'East Virginia'?

Subject: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 05:05 AM

Can anybody tell me how old (roughly) the song "East Virginia" is? I've been looking for information on it on the Web, but all I could find out is that the version Joan Baez sings (the only one I know so far)is from Kentucky. My song books have no information on its age, either.

Thank you!

Nathalie

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 03:38 PM

Lists I looked at say it is a variant of "In old Virginny" which I haven't found. I presume it is not "Carry me back to ..."

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 03:46 PM

For reference: DT file:  EAST VIRGINIA

Entry at  The Traditional Ballad Index:

East Virginia (Dark Hollow)

Unfortunately, no conclusive answer for you there.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jun 01 - 04:14 PM

The Trad. Ballad Index cited by Malcolm lists a book on the Ritchie Family, p. 134-135 that has the version "In Old Virginny." Anyone have this reference? It might help with the time frame.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'?
From: GUEST,Guest: Richie
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 09:42 AM

East Virgina: AK- "East Virginas Blues" is a sub-set of the "In Old Virginny" songs classified by Cecil Sharp. Most start off, "I was born in old Virginny to South Carlina(or whatever state) I did go".

This is the source of "Man of Constant Sorrow", a version of which is included in Sharp's from 1918. Subsequent branches include, "Darling think of what you've done" which I sing "going back to old Virginny" and the "Dark Hollow," "Greenback Dollar" songs.

If anyone wants specific lyrics or details let me know. [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 02:31 PM

"The origins of this song ["East Virginia Blues"] can be traced back to seventeenth century England. One of the first Southern Mounatin recordings of it was Clarence Ashley's "Dark Holler Blues," Columbia 15489 (149250), ca. 1928, which was sung with 5-string banjo. The melody and accompaniment were modal--neither in a major nor a minor key. Ashley later sang virtually the same tune and a similar text to the accompaniment of guitar and bluesy mouth-harp on "East Virginia Blues" (Ashley and Foster, Voc. 02576). About this time, the Carter Family recorded the song entirely in major and in two-part harmony (Bb B-5650). Later in the 1930s, the song developed into the very popular "Greenback Dollar," "The Answer to Greenback Dollar," etc." (Cohen et al., The New Lost City Ramblers Song Book, Oak, 1964, p. 43). What's the 17th-century English version?

Here's The Carter Family's "The East Virginia Blues" (1941) (Realaudio) from Honkingduck. Buell Kazee's "EAST VIRGINIA" (1927) is on Smith's Anthology of American Folk Music (Click here for supplemental notes). Ashley's "Dark Holler Blues" is on V.A., Rose Grew Around The Briar [sound clip].

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 04:53 PM

Well, several mentions of "In old Virginny," but no lyrics as yet. I can't find any in the DT.

Subject: Lyr Add: IN OLD VIRGINNY (Kentucky)
From: GUEST,Guest- Richie
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 10:01 PM

Here's a bit of one of 4 "Old Virginny" texts in my one of my notebooks. I have not looked through my manuscripts and other books.

IN OLD VIRGINNY
Sung by Judy Baker Harlan Co. KY, 1917

I was born in old Virginny,
South Carolina I did go,
Courted there a fair young lady,
O her name I do not know.

Her hair was of a dark brown colour,
And her cheeks was rosy red,
On her breast, she wore white lilies,
And tears for her I shed.

Now get this verse (the exact 'Dark Hollow' text):

I'd rather be on some dark (blue ocean)
Where the sun refused to shine,
For you to love another girl darling,
And to think you'll never be mine.

I wonder where Browning got his lyrics for Dark Hollow?
There's also a great text of "Man of Constant Sorrow" sung in 1918.

Also, I doubt the author could trace the East Virginia tune to England or he would have provided a source. If you want I can check on it but I'm very busy. If you want I can post entire set of lyrics for you on my web-site or here.

Thanks,
Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: OLD VIRGINNY
From: masato sakurai
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 10:10 PM

From: Jean Ritchie, Singing Family of the Cumberlands (1955; University Press of Kentucky, 1988, pp. 134-135; with music).

OLD VIRGINNY

I was born in old Virginny,
To North Carolina I did go;
I fell in love with a pretty fair maiden
And her name I did not know.

Her hair was of some brightsome color,
Her cheeks were of a rosy red,
And in my heart I loved her dearly
Many a tear for her I shed.

To my heart you are my darling,
At my door you're welcome in;
At my gate I'll meet you my darling,
O if your love I could only win.

When I am asleep I'm a-dreaming about you,
When I'm awake I find no rest,
And every moment seems like an hour
With aching pains all across my breast.

Your mama says that we never will marry,
Your papa says that it never will do;
If you'll have me, my darling girl,
I will run away with you.

I'd ruther be in some dark valley
Where that sun don't never shine,
Than to see you another man's darling
When I know that you should be mine.

When I am dead and in my coffin
And my feet's towards the sun,
Come and sit beside me darling,
Come and think on the way you done.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 11:18 PM

Thanks, guest Richie, and Masato, for the Ritchie lyrics.
I have been unable to find old (pre-1900) references, and, like Richie, doubt the connection to England.
Richie, some day when you have time, I would appreciate the Sharp lyrics.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Guest-Richie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 12:14 AM

I will post several of the Sharp "In Old Virginny" versions on my web-site at http://bluegrassmessengers.com Click lyrics then Fiddle Tunes- look under East Viginia- Versions 1, 2. I will also post them on this thread. I apologize for the lack of research as I haven't had much time and have only superficially entered songs from my data base and other spots on the web.

Masato & Dicho keep up your excellent work researching. You guys at Mudcat are the best!

Two places I can look for the England connection are: "Child's Popular Ballads" (I've done some research on the US connections) and my collection of shape-note hymn books. The inconsistant quality of the melodies I have for "In Old Virginny" make this a daunting and time consumming task.

I do beleive there is a connection. Any other ideas?

Richie

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Stewie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 01:58 AM

There's a version of 'Old Virginny' by Lee Monroe Presnell on the second CD issue devoted to the Warner Collection: Various Artists 'Nothing Seems Better to Me' Appleseed APR CD 1036. It wouldn't be easy to transcribe - does anyone have a copy of the Warner texts? The recording is by Lee Monroe Presnell who told the Warners that he learned it as a little boy and that it was one of the oldest songs he heard his mother sing. The Warners' note gives a reference to the four versions in Sharp II. The Meade, Spottswood, Meade country muscic sources biblio-discography includes it under the heading 'Miscellaneous Love Lyrics' and its earliest reference is also to Sharp II. The British antecedent appears to be a trifle elusive - or perhaps even illusory.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:31 AM

'Fraid the Lee Monroe Presnell version is one of those songs on the recording but not in the Warner book.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:44 AM

I can't find "East Virginia", "Dark Holler Blues" or ""Old Virginny" in Ann Warner's Traditional American Folk Songs from the Anne & Frank Warner Collection (Syracuse, 1984).

~Masato

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (from Cecil Sharp)
From: GUEST,Guest- Richie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 06:45 AM

Here's Sharp's Version A: Note the similarity of verse 4 with Browning's famous "Dark Hollow" (I'd rather be in some dark hollow where the sun refused to shine). Also note the similarity to Tami LaRue's "Think of What You've Done" (Darling, thin of what you've done) with Sharp's Verse 5 last line.

EAST VIRGINIA- (Sharp No. 167, "In Old Virginny")
Sung by Judy Baker- Harlan Co. KY, Aug. 31, 1917 (Dark Hollow Text- Browning) (Darling, Think of What You've Done- Rakes)

1. I was born in old Virginny,
South Carolina I did go,
Courted there a fair young lady,
O her name I don not know.

2. Her hair was of a dark brown colour,
And her cheeks was rosy red,
On her breast, she wore white lilies,
And tears for her I shed.

3. In my heart I love you darling,
To my door, you're welcome in,
At my gate I love you darling,
Here's the one I'm trying to win.

4. I'd rather be on some dark blue ocean,
Where the sun refused to shine,
For you to love another girl darling,
And to think you'll never be mine.

5. I'd rather be dead in my coffin,
My pale face turned towards the sun,
Than to think of you my darling,
And to think of what you've done.

6. Here's your letter and your postals,
Lie them closely by your heart,
The ring you gave to me, my darling,
From my finger will never part.

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (Sharp #167B)
From: GUEST,GUEST- Richie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 07:27 AM

Here's Sharp's 2nd version. Note the direct relationship with Jean Ritchie's first verse (posted by Masato). An additional note about Ritchie's version- Ritchie says, "This beautiful family love song comes to me from my father, who used to slip off into the deep woods on Sundays with his young friends and play gourd fiddles."

The Richie version- (I have 1953) changes the "deep blue sea" to the "dark valley" which "Dark Holler" in Ashley's 1928 version. Also Ritchie's "come and think on the way you done" more closely resembles the chorus of Tami LaRue's "Think of what you've done."

EAST VIRGINIA- (Sharp No. 167-B, "In Old Virginny")
Sung by Jake Sowder- Franklin Co. Va., Aug. 14, 1918 (Dark Hollow Text- Browning) (Darling, Think of What You've Done- Rakes)

O when I left the state of Georgia,
Old Virginny I did go,
There I spied a pretty fair miss,
O her name I do not know.

O her hair is of the darkest colour,
Her cheeks are of the diamond red,
She can face the morning sun,
O her age, I don't know how young.

Your papa says he's not willing,
For me to marry you.
But my dear, if you are willing,
I will run away with you.

Now I'm going to Alabama,
O for your sake I must go,
Must I go broken-hearted,
Like some poor soldier boy?

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (from Carter Family)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 07:52 AM

One last note on East Virginia. The Carter Family had two versions, below is the 1934 version (2nd). Note similarity in the first verse with Ritchie and Sharp. To me the interesting introduction is Verse 3's famous "I don't want your greenback dollar." This is one of the early connection with the "Greenback Dollar/I Don't Want Your Millions, Mister" that was used by Hoyt Axton and others.

1) I was born in East Virginia
North Carolina I did go
There I met a fair, young maiden
And her name, I did not know

2) Oh her hair was dark and curly
Cheeks were roses red
Oh, her breast she wore white lilies
Where I long to lay my head

3) I don't want your greenback dollar
I don't want your watch and chain
All I want is your heart, darling
Say you'll take me back again

4) The oceans deep and I can't wade in
And I have no wings to fly
I'll just get me a blue eyed boatman
Or you'll row me over the tide

5) I'll go back to East Virginia
North Carolina ain't my home
I'll go back to East Virginia
Leave them North Carolinians alone

Richie

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 25-Jan-03.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: John Minear
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 09:13 AM

Fortunately, Lee Monroe Presnell also sang his song, "Old Virginny" for Sandy Paton in the early '60s. Sandy's recording is of a better quality than that of the Warners. It is exactly the same song, and can be found on THE TRADITIONAL MUSIC OF BEECH MOUNTAIN, NORTH CAROLINA, VOL II, from Folk-Legacy (FSA-23). Here are Lee Monroe Presnell's lyrics:

Once I lived in old Virginny;
North Carolina was my home.
There I courted a handsome lady;
Oh, I called her my own.

Her hair was yellow and her eyes were sparkling;
On her cheeks were a diamond red
And on her breast she wore a white lily.
Oh, the tears that I have shed.

"Father said that I must not marry;
My mother said it would never do.
But, oh, kind miss, if you are willing,
I will run away with you.

"Oh, must I go to old Virginny,
Or, for you sake, must I die?
Oh, must I go, sad, broken hearted?
Oh, my darling, say, don't cry.

"Oh, when I'm asleep I'm a-dreaming about you;
When I'm awake I take no rest,
For every moment seems like an hour.
Oh, what a pain lies in my breast.

"Oh, when the golden sun is shining
On the top of Calvary,
Oh, it's sometimes, love, while you are thinking,
You must ofttimes think of me."

Sandy says,

"it is a most beautiful folk lyric and Uncle Monroe sings it magnificently. Listen to the gentle descent of his voice on the first word of the last line of each stanza, then try to repeat it exactly as he sings it. Such an attempt will, perhaps, enable you to appreciate the great artistry possible within the confines of a tradition. The folk aesthetic is a very demanding one."

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 11:07 AM

The link I made above to the Carters' "1941" recording is of the 1934 version (Victor 27494); 1941 is the date issued.

Charles Wolfe says in his notes to the Carters' May 7, 1935 version (that is, No. 2) in an accompanying book to In The Shadow of Clinch Mountain (Bear Family):

"East Viginia Blues No. 2 was a follow-up to the Victor version the Carters recorded jusy a year before; it is similar, but revised enough to merit the No. 2 on the title. Though some of the lines here date back to 17th-century England, others were familiar throughout the Appalachians, often in lyrics called Dark Hollow Blues or Greenback Dollar. It sounds like A.P. strung together a series of familiar stanzas, thoug some of them ("I am dying, captain, dying") seem less relevant than others."

"Some of the lines", not the song itself, date back to the "17th century."

~Masato

Subject: Lyr Add: DON'T FORGET ME, LITTLE DARLING
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:38 PM

Vance Randolph has several interesting versions, under the title "Don't Forget Me, Little Darling."

DON'T FORGET ME, LITTLE DARLING

A
I don't want your green-back dollar,
I don't want your watch and chain,
All I want is your love, little darlin',
Won't you take me back again?

Papa says we cannot marry,
Mamma says it cannot be,
All I want is your love, little darlin',
Won't you take me back again?

Some folks say you love another,
An' you care no more for me,
All I want is your love little darlin',
Won't you take me bach again?

From Miss Gladys Wheeler, MO, 1937. With music.

B
Once I had a darling sweetheart
And he thought the world of me,
Until he found another girl
Now he cares no more for me.

I don't want your greenback dollar,
I don't want your watch and chain,
All I want is you my darling,
Won't you take me back again.

Many a night with you I rambled
On the banks of the dark blue sea,
In your heart you loved another,
In my grave I'd rather be.

Mamma said we couldn't marry,
Papa said it would never do,
But if you ever learn to love me
I'll run away and marry you.

I don't want your greenback dollar,
I don't want your watch and chain,
All I want is a thirty-eight pistol
To blow out my dirty brains. (!!!)

Mrs. May Kennedy McCord, MO, 1942, from Miss Ethel Robinett, MO.

C
When you're in some furrin country,
When from you I'm far away,
Won't you 'member little darlin',
We will meet again some day.

When the train pulled out from Knoxville,
An' you bid me goodbye,
Sayin' go back home, my little darlin',
Go back home an' do not cry.

Went back home, my heart was broken,
Thinkin' of them days that's past,
Thinkin' of them lonesome hours,
Thinkin' they had come at last.

When you're in some furrin country,
When from you I'm far away,
Won't you 'member, little darlin',
No one loves you like I do.

Mr. Raymond Stanley, Arkansas, 1938. Same tune as Miss Wheeler.

D
Don't forget me, little darling,
Don't forget the happy past,
But remember, little darling,
You are ever in my dreams.

You may meet with many faces,
They may tell you I'm not true,
Don't believe them, little darling,
None can love you as I do.

At my window, sad and lonely,
Thinking only, love of thee,
And I wonder if my darling
Ever, ever thinks of me.

Mr. Will Guilliams, Arkansas, 1941. He says he heard it sung near Farmington, Arkansas, in the early 90's. With music.

Randolph says there are some very similar lines in the "Old Virginny" song reported by Sharp (English Folk Songs From the Southern Appalachians, 1932, II, p. 234) and in the 4th stanza of a piece called "Georgy Boy") Carter, JAFL, 46, 1933, p. 32).

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:48 PM

The Vance Randolph versions above from Ozark Folksongs, vol. 4, pp. 207-209, reprint edition of 1980, Univ. Missouri.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 06:56 PM

A British connection may exist through the ballad "Fond Affection," or "Once I Loved With Fond Affection." Brown, North Carolina Folklore, has several versions. Vol. 4 has the music and vol. 2 the lyrics. Version E collected in 1919 begins:
Once I loved a fond affection,
And he thought the world of me,
Till some dark-eyed girl persuaded;
Then he thought no more of me.

Go and leave me if you wish to,
Never let me cross your mind.
If you think I'm so unworthy
Go and leave me, never mind.

Coll. in Randolph Co., 1919, from Austin E. Elliot.

Version N starts:
I will pawn this watch and chain, love,
I will pawn this diamond ring.
I will pawn this heart from my bosom,
Hoping it brings you back again.

Go and leave me if you wish to,
Never let me cross your mind.
If you think I'm too unworthy,
Go, my darling, I don't mind.

Sung by Bascom Lamar Lunsford, Buncombe Co., no date.
Without vol. 2, I cannot give full lyrics. Five somewhat variant tunes are represented.

Other songs, considered as separate but with similar themes and (to me) that seem to be part of the same cluster, are "You Are False, But I'll Forgive You," "We Have Met And We Have Parted," "The Broken Engagement," "Broken Ties," "Parting Words," and several more.
The variations seem infinite.

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (from Doc Watson)
From: Lorraine
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 07:04 PM

Doc Watson also does a similar version

I was born in old east Virginia
North Carolina I did go
There I courted a fair young lady
What her age was I do not know

Her hair it was a brown dark curly
Her cheeks they were a ruby red
Upon her bosom she wore a ribbon
Oh the tears for her I shed

Her papa said that we might marry
Her mama said it would not do
Some dark night if you'll take a ramble
I will run away with you

I'd rather live in some dark hollow
Where the sun don't never shine
Than have you be some other man's woman
Never more on earth to call you mine

(Doc Watson on Doc Watson and Jean Ritchie in concert)
-Good song, but no idea how old. Sorry

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 25-Jan-03.

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA BLUES # 2 (from Carter)
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 08:58 PM

The only evidence on the age is anecdotal ("heard in the early 90's" etc.)
I will try the Levy and Bodleian sites for English ancestors using "Fond Affection," etc.
The Carters sang this one (see reference in Masato Sakurai, above). It may be their own, since the last three verses do not seem to appear in the versions I have turned up. No, I don't know why "little sister" appears.

Lyr. Add: "EAST VIRGINIA BLUES # 2 (Carter)

My sweetheart has gone and left me
And my little sister too
I am left alone in sadness
Lord I don't know what to do.

All this world is turned against me
Nothing but trouble do I see
There will be no more pleasure
In this whole wide world for me.

I am just from East Virginia
With a heart that's brave and true
Now I learned to love a maiden
With eyes of heavenly blue.

That same day I packed my suitcase
And I started to go away
But she met me at the station
Saying darling won't you stay.

I am dying, captain, dying
Won't you take those words for me
Take them over to the jail house
Let this whole wide world go free.

"She" always seems to have something white on her breast(s):
White lilies
A white lily
White flowers
White linen

Her hair was:
A light brown color
Dark and curly
A brightsome color
A lightsome color
Dark in color

The Carter Family had several different versions of East Virginia Blues. Guest, above, quotes a 1934 version. Here is the 1941 version mentioned by Masato, who gives the link to the Honking Duck audio:

Lyr. Add: EAST VIRGINIA BLUES (Carter)

I was born in East Virginia
To North Carolina I did go
There I spied a fair young lady
And her age I did not know.

Her hair was dark in color
Her cheeks were rosy red
Upon her breast she wore white lilies
Where I longed to lay my head.

Oh, at my heart you are my darlin'
At my door you're welcome in
At my gate I'll always meet you
For you're the girl I tried to win.

I'd rather be in some dark holler
Where the sun refuse to shine
Than for you to be another man's darlin'
And to know you'll never be mine.

Another verse that links to other songs (from a note of mine marked Canada ??):

O take me to that marble orchard
Carve my name upon a stone
Tell the world I died her lover
And I died for love alone.

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (Sharp #167C)
From: GUEST,GUEST- Richie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 09:37 PM

East Virginia- "In Old Virginny" Here is Sharp's No. 167C and -O Brother- is it a doosey! Combining "Man of Constant Sorrow" in the first verse and regular "In Old Virginny" text in the 2nd. This 1918 version compares to the date and time period of Burnett's 1913 "Farewell Song" which is the other early version with the "Man of Constant Sorrow" lyrics. I'll include "Farewell Song" for comparison.

EAST VIRGINIA- "In Old Virginny" collected by Sharp
No. 167- C; St. Peter's School- Calaway Va. Aug. 17-1918.

1) I am a man of constant sorrow,
I have seen trouble all my days.
I'll bid farewell to old Virginia,
The place where I was partly raised.

2) But when I was in old Virginia,
North Carolina I did go,
There I spied a handsome lady
O her name I did not know.

3) I always thought I had seen trouble,
But know I know it's common run;
I'll hang my head like a humble Christian,
And on my journey I'll go on.

4) When I am in some lonesome hour,
When I am walking all alone,
I'll wipe the briny tears of sorrow,
And think of you when far away.

The lyrics are to be found in a 1913 songbook printed by Richard Burnett of Monticello, KY. Here they are:

1) I am a man of constant sorrow,
I've seen trouble all of my days;
I'll bid farewell to old Kentucky,
The place where I was born and raised.

2) Oh, six long year I've been blind, friends.
My pleasures here on earth are done,
In this world I have to ramble,
For I have no parents to help me now.

3) So fare you well my own true lover,
I fear I never see you again,
For I'm bound to ride the Northern Railroad,
Perhaps I'll die upon the train.

4) Oh, you may bury me in some deep valley,
For many year [sic] there I may lay.
Oh, when you're dreaming while you're slumbering
While I am sleeping in the clay.

Also a brief comment on some of the recent posts. My friend Doc Watson who I'll be playing with Oct. 5 (lyrics poster by Lorraine) sings the "Go and leave me if you wish to, Never let me cross your mind." (posted by Dicho) lyrics to "Columbus Stockade" blues which he plays in Am with a capo.

These lyrics really get passed around. Frank Brown (Dicho's post) heard my grandfather play one of Frank Profitt's dulcimers in New York city and went to Beech Mountain to get one from him (Turtle Man's Beech Mountain post). Somehow everything seems to be related.

Before I "hang down my head and cry" I agree with Dicho but "Dear Companion" seems to be separate as Sharp No. 111. I think the "Dear Companion" tunes are related to "Dowie Dens o' Yarrow." Anyone want to have a go at this relationship?

Richie

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 25-Jan-03.

Subject: Lyr Add: OH MOLLY DEAR (from B.F. Shelton)
From: Stewie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 10:00 PM

Several old-time recordings have been mentioned - Kazee, Ashley, Ashley and Foster, Carter Family - but no mention so far of the fine early recording by B.F. Shelton under the title 'Oh Molly Dear'. It was recorded at the legendary 1927 Bristol Sessions. This version is related to the 'Drowsy Sleeper'/'Katie Dear'/'Who's That Knocking On My Window' family.

OH MOLLY DEAR
(Traditional)

Oh once I lived in old Virginny
To North Carolina I did go
There I saw a nice young lady
Oh her name I did not know

Her hair was black and her eyes was sparkling
On her cheeks were diamonds red
And on her breast she wore a lily
To mourn (?) the tears that I have shed

Oh when I'm asleep I dream about her
When I'm awake I see no rest
Every moment seems like an hour
Oh the pains that cross my breast

Oh Molly dear, go ask your mother
If you my bride can ever be
If she says no, come back and tell me
And never more will I trouble thee

Last night as I laid on my pillow
Last night as I laid on my bed
Last night as I laid on my pillow
I dreamed that fair, young lady was dead

No, I won't go ask my mother
She's lying on her bed of rest
And in one hand she holds a dagger
To kill the man that I love best

Now, go and leave me if you want to
Then from me you will be free
For in your heart you love another
And in my grave I'd rather be

Source: transcription of B.F. Shelton 'Oh Molly Dear' recorded on 29 July 1927 in Bristol, Tennessee. Issued as Victor 4017, September 1929. Reissued on Various Artists 'The Bristol Sessions' Country Music Foundation CMF 011-D (2-CD set).

Other old-time recordings under various titles included:

Karl & Harty 'Darling, Think What You've Done' 1936
Roy Acuff & His Crazy Tennesseans 'New Greenback Dollar' 1936
Blue Sky Boys 'What Have You Done' 1937
J.H. Howell's Carolina Hillbillies 'My Sweetheart's Gone and Left Me' 1938
Jack (Hilliard) & Leslie (Palmer) 'Darling Think of What You've Done' 1938
Morris Brothers 'Darling, Think of What You've Done' 1939
[Info from Meade, Spottswood, Meade biblio-discography]

--Stewie.

Subject: Lyr Add: FOND AFFECTION
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 11:01 PM

For comparison, here is "Fond Affection" from the Max Hunter Collection. Related? : Fond Affection

Lyr. Add: FOND AFFECTION

O, once I loved with fond affection
My thoughts were all of him I know
Until some dark eyed girl betrayed me
An' now he's left me all alone.

Chorus:
So, if he's gone, just let him wander
I hope I never cross his path
For in his heart he loves another
And in my grave, I'd rather be.

A many a night, while he lies sleeping
A dreaming o'er his sweet repose
That I poor girl, lay broken hearted
An' listen to the winds that blow.

There's just three things that love, I ask thee
My shroud, my coffin an' my grave
And when I'm dead, love come an' see me
An' kiss the girl you once betrayed.

Mrs. Norma Kissner, Arkansas, 1960.

Variants: Little Darling Pal Of Mine. (0823 in Max Hunter Coll.)
Other collections:
Randolph IV-no. 755 The Broken Heart
Belden p. 209
Brown II no. 153 Fond Affection

Sharp's 167C IS a doosie! And "Oh Molly Dear" has black hair! A lot turned up with a simple request for "age."

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Guest- Richie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 11:57 PM

Stewie-

I've always thought that Awake! O Awake!/Drowsy Sleeper was the sub-clasification of "East Virginia/In Old Virginny" that included O Molly Dear/Katie Dear (there's a great version by Mike Seeger-Anyone have his lyrics?)which is also known as "Silver Dagger" (have you heard the Old Crowe Medicine Show's version?) but I don't include these in with the "Think of What You've Done" Tammy LaRue branch (There's no silver dagger and no smoking gun!). But the bloody silver dagger is what we were looking for.

This appears to be the English connection that we're looking for (although there are probably others).

Note Sharp's "Awake! Awake!" No. 57 A- "I'll go down in some lone valley". My notes on Sharp 57 indicate that this song appears in Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs 225; One Hundred English Folk Songs p. 106 also in Folk Songs from from Somerset, No 99.

Another good version in my collection is from Bascom Lamar Lunsford entitled "Awake O Awake" which includes the "Fond Affection/Dear Companion"- "turtle dove" lyrics. There's also a version by Melinger Henry (a friend of my grandfather's) in my collection.

This appears to give a direct line from England to "Awake Awake" which is directly related to "East Virginia".

What do you think?

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (Buell Kazee)
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 12:50 AM

Lyr. Add: EAST VIRGINIA (Buell Kazee)

I was born and bred in east Virginia
But it's North Carolina where I did roll
There I fell to a pretty fair lady
But her name and ways I did not know.

Her hair it was of a dark brown color
And her cheeks they were a rosy red
And on her breast she wore a white lily
And tears for her I have often shed.

Her father said that we would never marry
Her mother said "He's the devil, dear"
Well if you say you live for me
Then you surely have not a thing to fear.

When I was lost and in the mountains
The pretty birds were flying through the air
I dreamt of that girl that I loved so dearly
With her laughing face and flowing hair.

Now if you don't think that I'm a fool about you
Then honey just look what a fool I've been
And if you don't think that I'm sinking slowly
Then just see what a hole I'm in.

And when I'm gone and lost- forever
Our memory lost in the sun
I want you to come around
And think about what we could have done.

For I'd rather be in some dark holler
Where the sun refused to shine
Than for you to be another man's woman
And never on this sweet earth to call you mine.

East Virginia . Said to be the Kazee version (1927?). A bit over-written.

"The Broken Engagement" has been collected in Texas by William A. Owens, 1950, Texas Folk Songs, p. 172-173, with music. Texas Folklore Society.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE DROWSY SLEEPER
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 01:37 AM

Randolph has six versions of "The Drowsy Sleeper." One contains reference to the "silver dagger." Two lines are missing, but enough is given to make Richie's point. The Traditional Ballad Index gives the earliest date for "The Drowsy Sleeper" as 1855, in The Social Harp- first verse only. Randolph says that many English, Scottish and American references are found in JAFL (various issues, 1907-1922) and a number of other American and Canadian texts and references.

THE DROWSY SLEEPER

Arise, arise, you drowsy sleeper,
Arise, arise, it's almost day.
Oh who is there at my bedroom window,
Weeping there so bitterly.

'Tis I, 'tis I, your own true lover,
Weeping there so bitterly,
Oh May dear, go ask your father
If we might wed a bride shall be.

(Two lines missing)
If he says no, just come and tell me,
And I no more will bother thee.

I will not go and ask my father,
For he is slumbering at his rest,
And by his side a silver dagger
To pierce the heart that I love best.

Then May dear, go ask your mother
If we might wed a bride shall be.
If she says no, just come and tell me,
And I no more will bother thee.

I will not go and ask my mother,
For she is slumbering at her rest,
And by her side she behold (sic) a dagger
To pierce the heart that I love best.

Then Willie drew a silver dagger,
And pierced it in his own true heart,
Farewell my love, farewell forever,
Farewell, my love, now we must part.

Then may she drew the bloody weapon, And pierced it through her snow white breast,
Farewell, blind world, farewell forever,
Farewell, blind world, now we must part.

Miss Ollie Murray, Missouri, 1927. Randolph, Ozark Folksongs, vol. I, British Ballads and Songs, pp. 244-249.
Now we must ask ourselves, does "East Virginia" qualify as a distinct song? For practical purposes, it must, otherwise a simple song of two separated lovers, one untrue, and a ballad of bloody gore as the result of the girl's parents refusal to allow a marriage, are put in the same bin. Most song collectors have kept them separate.

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA
From: Stewie
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 02:15 AM

Dicho, wherever it originates, it ain't the Kazee text. Here is my transcription of Kazee's recording - in the second stanza, it sounds to me like he is singing 'curly', but it could be 'color'. [Dale will be pleased to note that I used the American spelling, albeit reluctantly].

EAST VIRGINIA
(Traditional)

Oh, when I left old East Virginia
North Carolina I did roam
There I courted a fair, young lady
What was her name I did not know

Her hair it was of a dark brown color (curly?)
Her cheeks they were a rosy red
Upon her breast she wore a ribbon
Oh don't I wish that I was dead

Her papa said that we might marry
Her mama said it would not do
Oh come here dear and I will tell you
I will tell you what I'll do

Some dark night we'll take a ramble
I will run away with you

For I'd rather be in some dark holler
Where the sun refuse to shine
As for you to be some other man's woman
Never on earth to call you mine

Source: transcription of Buell Kazee 'East Virginia' recorded 20 April 1927 in New York City. Issued Brunswick Br 154 in November 1927. Reissued on Various Artists 'Anthology of American Folk Music Vol III' (Harry Smith) Smithsonian/Folkways SFW 40090.

--Stewie.

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA and O! MOLLY DEAR GO ASK...
From: Stewie
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 03:45 AM

Richie,

The only Mike Seeger version that I have is with Ralph Stanley and Jack Cooke. I have transcribed the lyrics - hope it is what you are after. I have also transcribed Kelly Harrell's 'Molly' which begins with 'Drowsy Sleeper' lines and later shares (more or less) stanzas with Shelton's recording.

I do not have access to Sharp texts. I would be interested in seeing 'Awake, awake' - can you post it? Certainly, Meade, Spottswood, Meade must believe in a British connection because they place 'Oh Molly Dear', 'Katie Dear', 'Drowsy Sleeper' under the category of 'British Ballads'. Unfortunately, they give no British references, only references to American collections such as Brown and Belden. I reckon you are right in saying the connection is through 'Drowsy Sleeper'.

EAST VIRGINIA

I was born in East Virginia
North Carolina I did go
There I courted a fair young maiden
But her age I did not know

Oh her hair was dark and curly
And her cheeks were rosy red
On her breast she wore white lilies
Where I longed to lay my head

Molly dear, go ask your mother
If you my bride might ever be
If she says no, come back and tell me
And I'll run away with you

I'll go back to East Virginia
North Carolina ain't my home
I'll go back to East Virginia
Leave old North Carolina alone

The ocean's deep and I can't wade it
And I have no wings to fly
I'll just get some blue-eyed boatman
For to row me over the tide

Oh you know I'd like to see you
At my door you're welcome in
At my gate I'll always greet you
For you're the girl I tried to win

Source: transcription of Mike Seeger, Ralph Stanley and Jack Cooke 'East Virginia' on Mike Seeger 'Third Annual Farewell Reunion' Rounder CD 0313.

O! MOLLY DEAR GO ASK YOUR MOTHER

Wake up, wake up, you drowsy sleeper
Wake up, wake up, for it's almost day
How can you stand to sleep and slumber
When your true lover's going away

Once I lived in old Virginia
To North Carolina I did go
There I spied a nice young lady
Oh her name I did not know

Her hair was black and her eyes was sparkling
And on her cheeks were diamonds red
And on her breast she wore a lily
Oh/o'er the tears that I did shed

When I'm asleep I'm dreaming about her
When I'm awake I see no rest
Every moment seems like an hour
Oh the pains that cross my breast

Oh Molly dear, go ask your mother
If you my bride can ever be
If she says no, come back and tell me
And I no more will trouble thee

Oh no, I'll not go ask my mother
For she lies on her bed at rest
And in one hand she holds a dagger
To kill the man that I love best

Source: transription of Kelly Harrell 'O! Molly Dear Go Ask Your Mother' recorded 9 June 1926 in New York City. Issued as Victor 20280 December 1926. Reissued on Kelly Harrell 'Complete Recorded Works Vol I (1925-1926) Document DOCD-8026.

--Stewie.

Subject: Lyr Add: AWAKE! AWAKE!
From: GUEST,GUEST- richie
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 08:50 AM

Below is Sharp 57-A, I've got two English versions in my collection entitled "Arise! Arise!" The English versions (one by Sharp) have the "drowsy sleeper" image and the father "holds the weapon" in the US versions the weapon usually becomes "the silver dagger," ending usually in the tragic double suicide. No one is certain how the two became entwined.

I also have one version from Virginia with the "Arise! Arise!" title. The Bascom Lunsford version has "the bloody dagger" but it's not silver (probably some cheap iron).

Note in the Sharp version the "down in some lone valley" which is the "East Virginia/Dark Hollow" reference. Sharp has many version collected in the US.

AWAKE! AWAKE!
Sharp No. 57-A; Sung by Mary Sands at Allanstand, NC Aug. 1, 1916

1. Awake! Awake! You drowsy sleeper,
Awake! Awake! It's almost day;
How can you lie and sleep and slumber,
And your true love going far away.

2. Say, my love, go ask your mother,
If you my bride, my bride shal be;
And if she says, "No" love come and tell me,
It will be the last time I'll bother thee.

3. I'll not go ask my mother,
For she lies on her bed at rest;
And in her hands she holds a paper
That speaks the most of my distress.

4. Say, my love, go ask your father,
If you my bride, my bride shall be;
And if she says, "No" love come and tell me,
It will be the last time I'll bother thee.

5. I will not go ask my father,
For he lies on his bed at rest;
And in his hands he holds a weapon,
To kill the man that I love best.

6. I'll go down in some lone valley,
And spend my weeks, my months, my many years,
And I'll eat nothing but green willow,
And I'll drink nothing but my tears.

7. Then come back, come back, my own true lover,
Come back, come back in grief cried she,
And I'll forsake both father and mother,
And I'll cry, love, and pity thee.

Richie

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 9-Apr-03.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 09:47 AM

Stewie-

The Mike Seeger is on Vanguard VRS-9150, LP (1964), cut#A.02. Anyone have the lyrics?

Also it was Frank Warner that my grandfather sent down to Beech Mountain to meet Frank Proffitt and get a dulcimer. Is that Frank enough?

I also think there is a "East Virginia" connection with (the verse only) "Poor Wayfaring Stranger" with lyrics (vague) meter and tune. Anyone see this?

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (from Peter Tork/Monkees)
From: GUEST,GUEST- Richie
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 11:03 AM

I want to thank you Mudcatters for your resourcefulness. I think we've uncovered some important connections here. If anyone has any additional "Drowsy Sleeper" lyrics, I'd like to see them.

I'm signing off for now but want to leave you with "the Monkees" version or East Virginia (If The Monkees covered it you know it's an important song).

"EAST VIRGINIA" by the Monkees
Lyrics by Peter Tork

1. I was born in East Virginia
North Carolina, I did roam
There I met a sweet young maiden
Her name and age, I do not know

2. Her hair it was a light brown color
And her cheeks were ruby red
On her breast she wore white lilies
There I longed to lay my head

3. I'd rather be in some dark hollow
Where the sun refuse to shine
Than to see her with another
And to know she'd never be mine

4. I was born in East Virginia
North Carolina, I did roam
There I met a sweet young maiden
Her name and age, I do not know
Her name and age, I do not know

I realized I could get in trouble for posting lyrics that were written by Peter Tork.

Richie

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 9-Apr-03.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 12:29 PM

There are five more "Drowsy Sleeper" versions from Missouri and Arkansas in Vance Randolph's Ozark Folksongs, vol. 1. I will put them here or email if there is interest. He also has several versions of "Silver Dagger."

Thhere are others, also "Silver Dagger," in Brown, but I only have the fragments given with the music in vol. 4.

In two versions of "Silver Dagger" collected by Cox (Folk-Songs From The South) from West Virginia, the maid stabs herself first, then the youth uses the bloody dagger on himself. Both read like old broadsheet emissions.

Cox also gives two versions of "The Drowsy Sleeper," In one, the sleeper is called on to "Rouse up, rouse up," and in the last verse:
Down in the meadow there lies a sharp arrow;
I'll draw it across my peaceful breast;
It will cut off all love and sorrow,
And send my peaceful soul to rest.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 12:37 PM

Stewie, I had doubts about the "Buell Kazee" version that I copied; that is why I put in "said to be." From the mis-spellings on the website, I believe it may have been transcribed by a non-English speaker. Thanks for the authentic one.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Stewie
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 07:38 PM

Dicho, my pleasure. Kazee's later recording for Folkways was even shorter - he dropped the second stanza.

Richie, I take it the Seeger solo version differs from what I posted - I can't help you with the Vanguard recording. Thanks for posting 'Awake, Awake'. The 'lone valley' stanza (6) seems to be a floater from the 'Little Sparrow'/Willow Tree versions of 'Fair and Tender Ladies' which were referred to in a recent thread. Dillard Chandler recorded a version of 'Awake, Awake' on his Folkways album 'Old Love Songs and Ballads' (unfortunately I don't have it) and he also has a willow tree stanza.

I have an interesting 1929 recording of 'Drowsy Sleeper' by Wilmer Watts and His Lonely Eagles under the title 'Sleepy Desert'. I will have a go at transcribing it later but, since it is reissued from a Paramount 78 (and most sides from that label sound like they were recorded under water and pressed on corrugated cardboard), there may be a number of gaps.

That Peter Tork was certainly a creative lad!

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 09:19 PM

The Bodelian Balad index features this version of "Drowsy Sleeper." Assuming it's the same song (how do we know that?) that takes us back to 1817. But how we get from there to the Seventeenth Century is still not clear. Actually, "Drowsy Fleeper":

Awake awake ye drowsy fleeper,
Awake awake, 'tis almost day!
How can you fleep, ye darling creature
Since you have ftole my heart away?

It scans the same as East Virginia, in any event, and has a fimilar theme.

Subject: Lyr Add: DROWSY SLEEPER
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 11:37 PM

This is earliest tune I could find. It dates to 1830's. Below that, I've included some info about Sharp and Mary Sand's version of Drowsy Sleeper "Awake! Awake!" that I posted yesterday. The Appalachians were a remote area and fairly isolated. It can be assumed that since "the Drowsy Sleeper" was widespread in the region (Sharp collected a dozen versions.) that it came over from England with some of the early settlers in the region. It will take a trip to the library for me to find out the early English sources and dates. Anyone have anything from England?

DROWSY SLEEPER - England.
Words: Collated from a large number of sources, dating from the 1830's. Tune: Collected from Dorset, England.

1. Arise, arise, you drowsy sleeper,
Awake, awake, it's almost day.
O come into your bedroom window
And hear what your true love do say.

2. Begone, begone, you'll wake my mother,
My father, too, will quickly hear.
Go tell your tales unto some other,
And whisper softly in her ear.

3. O then, O then, go ask your father
If he'll consent you my bride to be.
If he denies you, come and tell me
For it's the last time I'll visit thee.

4. My father's in his chamber, writing,
And setting down his merchandise,
And in his hand he holds a letter
And it speaks much to your dispraise.

5. To my dispraise, love, to my dispraise,
To my dispraise, love, how could it be?
I never slighted, nor yet denied you.
Until this night you've denied me.

6. It's then, O then, go ask your mother
If she'll consent you my bride to be.
If she denies you, come and tell me
For it's the last time I'll visit thee.

7. My mother's in her chamber, sleeping,
And words of love she will not hear,
So you may go and court another
And whisper softly in her ear.

CECIL SHARP, MARY SANDS- Cecil Sharp first met Mary Sands on Monday, 31 July 1916, when she arrived at their lodgings shortly after breakfast. Mary, then aged 45, was the mother of nine children. A tenth child, John Wesley Sands, was to arrive on 28 August, less than a month after their meeting. Mary gave Sharp six ballads that day - 'six first raters', he called them. These were The Silk Merchant's Daughter, a version of Pretty Nancy of Yarmouth, which Mary called The Perbadus Lady, The Brown Girl, Lord Bateman, Fair Margaret and Sweet William and Come You People Old and Young, a version of The Suffolk Miracle which Sharp described as 'curious'.

Mary Sands again called on Sharp the following morning, singing him a further six songs and ballads. Sharp's diary makes mention of Arise, Arise, You Drowsy Sleepers, The Daemon Lover and Mary's version of Earl Brand, though not of the other three songs collected that day, The Little Soldier Boy, I Am a Man of Honour, and The Broken Token.

Dicho- I am interested in any Drowsy Sleeper versions that have references to Virginia, North Carolina or "the dark valley/dark hollow/deep blue sea" lyrics.

I will check out the English- Dear Companion. I have studied all of the Child ballads but long ago. Written in my notes it says, "this (drowsy sleeper) is related to Child 65" but now I don't see it.

Also does someone have the lyrics to Lomax's 1937 "Greenback Dollar" and is this the earliest Greenback Dollar title?

Richie

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 11:37 PM

The Traditional Ballad Index takes "The Drowsy Sleeper" back to 1855 (noted previously) but the version found at the Bodeleian by Toadfrog puts the date back to 1817. These broadsides were mostly cheap printings of still older songs. I have looked under "Silver Dagger," "Go From My Window, "(Fond) Affection," "Broken Heart," and "Sorrow" but found nothing that fits.
This version has "Jemmy" going to sea and the maid apparently sets out to starve herself. The brides portion of 5000 pounds does not seem to appear in the American versions.
Because this seems to be the earliest, and because of its difference from others, I am adding the full text.

Lyr. Add: THE DROWSY SLEEPER (1817)

Awake, awake, ye drowsy sleeper,
Awake, awake, 'tis almost day,
How can you sleep my charming creature
Since you have stole my heart away.

Begone, begone, you will wake my mother,
My father he will quickly hear.
Begone, begone and court some other,
But whisper softly in my ear.

Her father, hearing the Lovers talking,
Nimbly jumped out of bed,
He put his head out of the window,
But this young man quickly fled.

Turn back, turn back, don't be called a rover,
Jemmy turn back and sit you by my side.
You may stay while his passions over,
Jemmy I will be your lovely bride.

O daughter, daughter, I will confine you,
Jemmy he shall go to sea,
And you may write your truelove a letter,
And he may read it when far away.

O father, pay me down my portion,
Which is five thousand pounds you know,
And I'll cross the wide watery ocean
Where all the hills are covered with snow.

No, I will not pay down your portion,
Which is five thousand pounds I know,
Nor you shant cross the wide watry ocean,
Where the hills are covered with snow.

O daughter, daughter I will confine you,
And all within your private room,
And you shall live on bread and water,
Once a day and that at noon.

No, I will have none of your bread and water,
Nor nothing else that you have,
If I can't have my heart's desire,
Single i will go to my grave.

Crome printer (Sheffield- in ink)
Harding B 28 (233) Bodleian Library

Quite a variance from "East Virginia." Most song compilations separate "Silver Dagger,' "Drowsy Sleeper," Fond Affection," etc., although there are parallels and wandering verses. The simplicity of "East Virginia," to me, suggests that it may have originated independently. I guess that this can be argued indefinitely.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 12:07 AM

The last Drowsy Sleeper text Ritchie quotes is from Stephen Sedley's book, The Seeds of Love (1967), and is one of two separate songs he "constructed" from the same seven (!) separate sources; not, I'm afraid, evidence of anything at all apart from Sedley's extravagant imagination and complete lack of concern for authenticity. The tune was from Marina Russell of Upwey in Dorset, noted early 20th century, incidentally. The only 1830s source cited for any of that dog's breakfast was "a note in Cunningham's 1834 edition of Burns", whatever that might have been.

No offence intended; Sedley makes me cross. I'm sure that he didn't intend to promulgate so many misunderstandings (he apparantly did some very worthwhile collecting of his own, particularly among Travellers), but that has tended to be the effect of his book.

I do have some of the Drowsy Sleeper material that Sharp noted in England, and will try to sort some out later if it looks like being useful. Meanwhile, perhaps a few tunes might be in order for some of these texts? It might help to see if there are demonstrable connections there.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Stewie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 12:26 AM

Richie, in respect of commercial recordings, the earliest under the title was by Davis and Nelson in 1929 - 'I Don't Want Your Greenback Dollar'[Pmt 3188]. Tom Ashley and Gwen Foster recorded it under the title 'Greenback Dollar' in 1933. There were recordings by Callahan Brothers and Roy Acuff in 1936.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:15 AM

Stewie-

For the Kazee lyrics (2nd verse) posted Aug. 22, I have:

2. Her hair, it was all dark brown curly, Her cheeks they were all rosy red Upon her breast she wore a ribbon, O don't I wish that I was there.

What do you think?

What are Clarence Ashley lyrics?

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: East Virginia (from Ralph Stanley)
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 10:28 AM

Dicho and Masato-

This is one of the East Virginia Blues from Carter Family I have. It's different than the two posted by Dicho above.
This is the version sung by Ralph Stanley. Which version is this?

CARTER FAMILY

1. I was born in East Virginia
North Carolina I did go
There I met a fair, young maiden
And her name, I did not know

2. Oh her hair was dark and curly
Cheeks were roses red
Oh, her breast she wore white lilies
Where I long to lay my head

3.I don't want your greenback dollar
I don't want your watch and chain
All I want is your heart, darling
Say you'll take me back again

4. The oceans deep and I can't wade in
And I have no wings to fly
I'll just get me a blue eyed boatman
Or you'll row me over the tide

5. I'll go back to East Virginia
North Carolina ain't my home
I'll go back to East Virginia
Leave them North Carolinians alone.

Richie

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 9-Apr-03.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 10:33 AM

Here are Dillard Chandler's lyrics for "Awake, Awake", from OLD LOVE SONGS AND BALLADS FROM THE BIG LAUREL, NORTH CAROLINA, Folkways Records, Album No. 2309(available from Smithsonian Folkways). This was recorded by John Cohen and Peter Gott in August of 1963.

Awake, awake, my own true lover
Awake, awake it's almost day;
How can you bear love to sleep and slumber
And your own true lover a-going away.

I'll go all down on yander's river
I'll spend my weeks, my months, my days,
It's I'll eat nothing but green willow
Nor I'll drink nothing but my tears.

Come back, come back, my own true lover
Come back, come back, in grief cried she
It's go and ask your pappa if I mayn't have you
And if he says no please come back and tell me
It'll be the last time I'll bother you.

Oh no I can't, nor I neither won't do it
For he lies on his bedside at rest
And in his hand he holds a weapon
For to kill that boy who I love best.

I'll go all down on yander's river
I'll spend my weeks, my months, my days,
It's I'll eat nothing but green willow
Nor I'll drink nothing but my tears.

Come back, come back my own true lover
Come back, come back in grief cried she,
I will forsake both father and mother
I'll cry so loud and pity thee.

Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 08:07 PM

Richie, I got somewhat different words for the Stanley Brothers, also more verses. You list as Carter Family, then say it is the version sung by Ralph Stanley ??

Verse 1.
(Same)
Verse 2.
On her breast she wore white linen.
(Otherwise same)
Verse 3.
Molly dear, go ask your mother
If you my bride might ever be
If she says no, come back and tell me
And I'll run away with thee.
Verse 4.
No I'll not go ask my mother Where she lies on her bed of rest.
For in her hand she holds a dagger
To kill the man I love best.
Verse 5.
Same as Richie's verse 3 (Green back dollar floater)
Verse 6.
Same as Richie's verse 4 (The ocean's deep)
Verse 7.
I'll go back to East Virginia
North Carolina ain't my home
I'll go back to East Virginia
Leave old North Carolina alone.
Verse 8
Oh you know I'd like to see you
At my door you're welcome in.
At my gate I'll always greet you
For you're the girl I tried to win.

Taken from: Stanley Brothers. East Virginia Blues
The Stanley Brothers were noted for changes in words from performance to performance. The website above lists source recordings under discography but I haven't checked.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE UNTRUE LOVER (Drowsy Sleeper)
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 08:40 PM

Turtle Old Man, the inventiveness of the ballad singer is abundantly evident from the many versions of these songs. Here is another from Randolph:

Lyr. Add: THE UNTRUE LOVER (Drowsy Sleeper)

Oh who is this at my bedroom window?
Oh who is this a-botherin' me?
'Tis I, 'tis i your own true lover,
Awake, arise an' let me in.

Awake, arise and ask your father,
Go ask him if you my bride can be.
Oh no, I can not ask my father
For he is on his bed of rest.

Oh love, arise an' ask your mother,
Go ask her if you my bride can be.
Oh no, I will not ask my mother,
For your true love I can never be.

Farewell, farewell, my untrue lover,
For the very last time I will bother thee,
For if you loved me, you would foller
Far, far acrost the deep blue sea.

For days then how her heart did flutter,
With grief when she thought of the deep blue sea,
She cried my lover's gone a-sailin',
So far, so far away from me.

She goes down to the deep blue water,
And sends her thoughts o'er the briny sea,
She plunged into its fathomless bosom,
Sayin' here I take my final sleep.

Miss Leone Duvall, MO, 1923. Randolph, Ozark Folksongs, vol. 1, pp. 245-246 (The Drowsy Sleeper, # 52B).

No music given, but similar to that of "The Drowsy Sleeper" from Miss Ollie Murray, in Randolph, posted previously. Several I have posted have music; I will email to anyone wanting a copy.

Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:41 PM

Dicho- the Ralph Stanley lyrics I posted were from "The Bluegrass Fakebook," by Bert Casey. Ralph Stanley-"Long Journey Home." However, I had the same lyrics from the Carter Family from somewhere on the web. I wondered if Stanley got them the Carter's, maybe another version. Does anyone know? Here they are again:

1. I was born in East Virginia
North Carolina I did go
There I met a fair, young maiden
And her name, I did not know

2. Oh her hair was dark and curly
Cheeks were roses red
Oh, her breast she wore white lilies
Where I long to lay my head

3. I don't want your greenback dollar
I don't want your watch and chain
All I want is your heart, darling
Say you'll take me back again

4. The oceans deep and I can't wade in
And I have no wings to fly
I'll just get me a blue eyed boatman
Or you'll row me over the tide

5. I'll go back to East Virginia
North Carolina ain't my home
I'll go back to East Virginia
Leave them North Carolinians alone. (From Bert Casey)

Sharp has Silver Dagger (No. 165) separate from No. 167 "In Old Virginny" the B version is similar to the version I sing but the words are different. Both start setting the stage for the coming tragedy, Draw nigh young men, and pay attention, To these few lines, I'm going to write."

I haven't had time to go to the library but I'd like to find how old "Drowsy Sleeper" (Arise, Arise) is in England. I'll post Sharp- Version D of "Old Virginny" later this weekend when I get time.

Richie

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 9-Apr-03.

Subject: Lyr Add: DARK HOLLER BLUES and GREENBACK DOLLAR
From: Stewie
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 09:54 PM

Richie

I went back and listened again carefully to the second stanza of the Kazee recording. In the first line, I still hear 'of a' rather than 'all', but it is definitely 'curly', not 'color'. In the second line, it could be 'a' or 'all'. In the last line you are right: it is 'there', not 'dead'. On the surface, I reckon it sounds like 'dead' but, when you listen closely, you can here the 're' of 'there'. Thanks for the corrections - I'm an Aussie struggling with American regional accents in these matters. Kazee is usually more distinct than this. He is a breeze compared to Uncle Dave, Charlie Poole, Fiddlin' John Carson and others. Kazee had also had some formal singing training and he recalled that he had to 'unlearn' his formal vocal techniques to get a record 'bad enough that it would sell'.

Perhaps a JoeClone could correct the second stanza of the Kazee transcriptions above.

Here is how I hear the Ashley lyrics you requested:

DARK HOLLER BLUES

I was born in old Virginia
South Carolina I did go
There I courted a purty little woman
But her age I did not know

Well her hair was brown and curly
Oh her cheeks was rosy red
On her breast she wore white lilies
Oh the tears that I have shed

When I'm asleep I'm dreaming about you
When I wake I have no rest
Every moment seems like an hour
Oh the pains go through my breast

I'd rather be in some dark holler
Where the sun don't never shine
(Than) for you to be some other man's darling
When you ain't no longer mine

Papa says I must not marry
Mama says it will never do
But, little girl, if you are willing
I will run away with you

I'd rather be in some dark holler
Where the sun don't never shine
(Than) for you to be some other man's darling
When you ain't no longer mine

When I'm asleep I'm dreaming about you
When I wake I have no rest
Every moment seems like an hour
Oh the pains go through my breast

Source: Clarence 'Tom' Ashley 'Dark Holler Blues' recorded 23 October 1929 in Johnson City, Tenn. Issued as Co 15489-D in February 1930. Reissued on 'The Music of Clarence "Tom" Ashley 1929-1933: Greenback Dollar' County CO-CD-3520.


GREENBACK DOLLAR

Once I loved a darling seaman
And he thought this world of me
Till another girl persuaded
Now he cares no more for me

I don't want your greenback dollar
I don't want your watch and chain
All I want is your heart darling
Won't you take me back again

Many a stroll we've made together
Down beside the deep blue sea
If it's in your heart you love another
In my grave I'd rather be

I don't want your greenback dollar
I don't want your watch and chain
All I want's my 32-20
Just to shoot out your dirty brain

Papa says we cannot marry
Mama says, ' He'll never do'
If you ever learn to love me
I will run away with you

Source: Clarence 'Tom' Ashley (vcl, gtr) and Gwen Foster (hca) 'Greenback Dollar' recorded 6 September 1933 in New York City. Issued as Vo 02554 in December 1933. Reissued on 'The Music of Clarence "Tom" Ashley 1929-1933: Greenback Dollar' County CO-CD-3520.

--Stewie.