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Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink
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Subject: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tinkers? From: Catrin Date: 09 Jun 01 - 02:32 PM I am looking for the words to a song for a friend. We think it might be by the Oldham Tinkers, but not too sure... The lyrics we have so far are... We're reet down in't coal 'ole Where muck slaps up winders We've used al' the coal up - We're doon to the cinders When the bum bailiff calls He won't know where to find us, 'Cos we're reet down in't coal 'ole Where t'muck slaps up winders. We were also wondering if anyone has any idea where the phrase 'the bum bailif' comes from... Any thoughts anyone?? Thanks, Catrin |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 Jun 01 - 04:08 PM I think 'bum bailif' is just a derogatory term, Catrin. As in the bailif is a bum. Bum being the English 'bottom' iteration rather than the American Hobo/Bum, But I have been wrong before...;-) The rest of the song as in the 'tinkers version just goes on with lots of other kids songs. Memory serving correct the next it is -
Cups and saucers, plates and dishes And then
On the croft, on the croft, where we play pitch and toss Then (I think) the 'Mary was a weeping' song. I think Ged has the album in the folk club 'research archieves' (The whole of 12 LP's!!!) Give us a call if you want and I will try to look it up. Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 Jun 01 - 04:14 PM Nope - just remembered as I hit post, before 'Mary was a weeping'
Don't touch my silk dress, me mother can tell See you soon D |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: Snuffy Date: 09 Jun 01 - 05:30 PM It's called 'Coal Hole Medley' as done by the Tinkers, and is several different songs/chants strung together. The bit you quoted is the only part to that tune. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 Jun 01 - 05:32 PM Bum Bailiff: (Shak[speare], bum baylie), a bailiff who comes behind to make arrests: a sheriff's officer. Chambers 20th Century Dictionary |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: Lanfranc Date: 09 Jun 01 - 06:23 PM I have always heard and sung it as:
We're reet down in t' coyl 'oyl As a kid in Bradford, Yorkshire, in the early 50's, that was all we sang, I know of no other verse or chorus. Alan
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: Catrin Date: 10 Jun 01 - 05:47 AM Well thank you everyone! As usual - mudcat has come up trumps! I will print this thread out and take to the pub on Friday for my friend to see. I love showing off how wonderful mudcat is as a resource. Wonderul stuff! Cheers (clink!) Catrin |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: okthen Date: 10 Jun 01 - 06:09 AM This is part of a two part song,the second part starts "We were right down in the basement where the dust sticks to the casement" this being sung in a "posh accent" Ithink Bill Sables has the complete text. The Lancashire version goes, Doest thee not know me I'm me Ma's little lass Straight home from factory, I've got muck on me hands I've got muck on me brass doest thee not know me I'm me Ma's little lass can't get the phonetics right, however the "posh" version continues Do you not know me I'm Mama's little girl Straight home from boarding school I've got snowey white hands And snowey white dress Do you not know me, I'm Mama's little girl Iasked about this a couple of years ago could be in the records somewhere cheers bill |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: bobby's girl Date: 10 Jun 01 - 01:45 PM The version I recall is the same as Lanfranc's, but then as I also spent my early childhood in Yorkshire in the 50's I suppose thats not too surprising! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: The Walrus Date: 10 Jun 01 - 01:49 PM The version I've heard is a blend of Catrin and okthen's
"We're reet down in't coal 'ole It's amazing the kind of rubbish you pick up as a kid. Regards Walrus This can go on ad nausium. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 10 Jun 01 - 03:54 PM After the bit about don't touch my silk dress etc the Tinkers used to finish it with Ee by gum in't it fun shootin' pea's up a nanny goats bum then Beavers bulldog sittin' on a wall wellin' horsemuck penny a ball |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: GUEST,JohnB Date: 11 Jun 01 - 12:36 PM The second half version I know goes: "We are way down in the basement. Where dirt accumulates upon the casement. We have used up all our anthracite. And are now down to the residue. If the landlords' representative happens to pass by. He will not know where to find us. Because, We are way down in the basement. Where dirt accumulates upon the casement." Just a bit different than tother un. JohnB |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: Catrin Date: 12 Jun 01 - 01:26 PM OOOOOOH! Thank you, thank you, thank you!! Don't know what else to say fellow catters, Catrin |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 13 Jun 01 - 11:47 AM When I were a little lad... (RUN for the hills now, before he gets going...)we had a coal cellar with a trap in the pavement and I remember the coal being delivered (horse & cart). You had to watch and count the bags because it was alleged the coal man would try to cheat you by banging an empty sack on the chute if you only counted by ear! When the cellar was "empty" we did indeed sweep up the dust etc (we called it "slack" in Birmingham) which was used to bank up the fire at night. When I was in S.Wales my landlady used to call it "small coal". RtS (OK come out now, the old fart's stopped rambling) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: The Walrus Date: 13 Jun 01 - 05:43 PM Roger, I can still remember the smell in the street after the deliveries (coal dust and horse)..... Nostalgicaly (if mis-spelt) Walrus |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: GUEST Date: 05 Apr 11 - 11:03 AM We're all down in the basement Where the dirt accumulates on the casement We've used up all the anthracite And we're now down to the residue If the landlord's representative calls We're quite complacent That we won't find our whereabouts Down in the basement. A second verse to contrast with the ones already quoted. Heard mid-60's at Manchester University. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: Dave Hanson Date: 05 Apr 11 - 11:19 AM Ya can't put yer muck in our dustbin, Our dustbin, our dustbin, Ya can't put yer muck in our dustbin, Our dustbins full. or You cannot put your refuse in our receptacle, Our receptacle, our receptacle, You cannot put your refuse in our recptavcle, Our receptacle has reached it's maximum capacity. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: peregrina Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:08 PM Some elements from the Barnsley Anthem, words, music notes and sound at the Yorkshire Garland: here |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: GUEST Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:34 PM "Cellar 'oil" is a frequent replacement for "coal 'ole" in West Riding versions. "Hole" pronounced "'Oil" with 'oi' for 'oh'is common pronunciation in the West Riding, which may be why the phrase "Cellar 'oil" scans better than "Coil 'oil" "Slart", "Slaht" or "Slat" is common to many northern dialects, and always refers to various aspects of throwing. " Slat a brick at 'im" , "Her just slat plate down on table and walked off" Could be heard in Staffordshire and Cheshire. In Yorkshire and Lancashire, the verb seems to be reflexive, so "Muck slarts on t'winders" slarts = throws itself! "Find us" is pronounced as a true rhyme with "winders" of course. Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: Darowyn Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:42 PM Sorry, that was me. Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:25 AM Roger and Walrus, I too remember vividly the deliveries of the coalman with his horse and cart. My mother also urged me to watch as the sacks went in, and count them. The smell of coal dust, and the leather protective headgear (a bit like the Foreign Legion's) that the man wore, right over his shoulders. His face was black and fierce, I was a bit afraid of him. I used to give a lump of sugar to his horse. Memories... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Apr 11 - 09:13 AM ···the Tinkers used to finish it with Ee by gum in't it fun shootin' pea's up a nanny goats bum··· Raggytash 10 jun 01 ~~~ reminds me of the story (I think it is in Opies' "Lore & Language of Schoolchildren") of visiting band playing Men Of Harlech to Welsh schoolchildren astonished by their all instantly joining in with the only words known to them for that fine march--- "I'm the man that came from Scotland Shooting peas up a nanny-goat's bottom" ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: GUEST Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:15 AM continues: I'm the man who came from Scotland shooting peas away. My dad sag this to me. Not sure of origins possibly children school yard exchsnge. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: r.padgett Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:38 AM If anyone has the true provenance of this song we [Yorkshire garland] would like to know!! Dave Burland and Robin Garside sing this I believe and can also be found on yorkshirefolksong.net The song was widespread in Barnsley and was followed by; "You can't put yer muck in our dustbins, our dustbins, our dustbins (R) 'Ar dustbins full! Usually on charabanc trips from the local Working men's club trip to Cleethorpes or other seaside place, from industrial northern towns Ray |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE BARNSLEY ANTHEM From: Charley Noble Date: 22 Jul 11 - 01:40 PM Here's my full copy of "The Barnsley Anthem" from the unpublished Housing Songbook: The housing conditions experienced by most of the working class tenants in the new industrial cities were severe, especially so for those who sublet space in attics and cellars. In Manchester, England, it was reported in 1833 that some twelve percent of the workers, 21,000, were living in cellars: Often more than one family lived in a single damp cellar, in whose pestilent atmosphere twelve to sixteen persons were crowded together. To these and other sources of disease must be added that pigs were kept, and disgusting things of the most revolting kind were found. In this biting song, which is still current in the Barnsley and Lancashire areas, the tenants sing of what difficulties the rent collectors and court officers will have finding their lodgings, let alone collecting the rent. Anonymous – Circa 1850's In A Touch on the Times The Barnsley Anthem We're all dahn in't cellar 'oil Wheer t' muck slaghts on t' winders; We've used all t' coil up An' we're reight dahn to t' cinders; If bum bailiffs come They nivver will find us; 'Cos we're all dahn in t' cellar 'oil Wheer muck slaght on t' winders. We're all dahn in t' cellar 'oil Wheer t' muck slaghts on t' winders; Dooer 'oil's wide oppen as it's oft bin afooer; Fire 'oil it's nearly reight chock full o' cinders, An' t' waaf she's art callin' wi' t' neerbur next door, 'Cos we're all dahn in t' cellar 'oil Wheer t' muck slaghts on t' winders. We're all dahn t' cellar 'oil Wheer t' muck slaghts on t' winders; T' dooer 'oil's blocked up wi' ashes and cinders; When t' chap comes for t' rent Will 'e be able to find us? Ma comes wi' t' rollin' pin, Pa wi' t' belinders, When we're all dahn in t' cellar 'oil Wheer muck slaghts on t' winders. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: GUEST,Don Wise Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:05 AM "You can't put your muck in our dustbin Our dustbin, our dustbin You can't put your muck in our dustbin Our dustbin's full There's round 'uns and square 'uns And square 'uns and round 'uns But you can't put your muck in our dustbin Our dustbin's full" Makes a great round. I remember 'translating' it into german for an 'everyone mucks in' festival.........went something like this:- "Schmeiss net eure Dreck in uns're Tonne Uns're Tonne, uns're Tonne Schmeiss net eure Dreck in uns're Tonne Uns're Tonne ist voll! Es gibt rund und viereckig Viereckig und rund Schmeiss net eure Dreck in uns're Tonne Uns're Tonne ist voll!" 'net/nit' is a dialect/colloquial form of 'nicht' |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:23 AM Don's song, tho, would appear to go, not to the tune of 'Down Here In Cellar', but that of 'Lieber Augustin'/'More We Are Together'? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: MGM·Lion Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:25 AM Re: Tune of "Down here in t' cellar-'ole'" ~~ to be precise, I have nearly always heard it sung (which I first did from a friend from Manchester in early 1950s) to the tune of 'Oranges & Lemons'. Anyone else know/use any other tune for it? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: threelegsoman Date: 24 Jul 11 - 07:15 AM I did not know this as a song, but have a video of it as a poem: Da'n In't coil hoil |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: GUEST,mo Date: 25 Aug 11 - 06:02 PM when i was a little girl and my dad worked at pit our coal was delivered by the ton and droped in a big heap, when dad got home after his shift he would then sovel in t'coil oil before going to the alotment to feed the pigs and hens, he never complained but looking back now what a hard life |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: GUEST,Bill S from Adelaide Date: 26 Aug 11 - 12:02 AM That was known as "Concessionary coal" in our village, miners' coal came loose and they had to shovel it in and keep a fire going to use it up even in summer. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: GUEST,mo Date: 26 Sep 11 - 07:21 PM i remember the "concessionary coal" being swaped with the the local farmer for a load of farmyard manure duly delivered and droped steaming by the front gate to be spread on the veg garden, truly organic!! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: GUEST,Folkiedave Date: 27 Sep 11 - 03:24 AM There was another verse I remember singing. We are down in the coal store Where the dirt accumulates on the windows, We have used all our anthracite up And we are left with the residue If the landlord's representative arrives He'll fail to discover us Since we are way down in the coal hole where the dirt accumulates on the windows. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: GUEST,Steve Ion Date: 19 Apr 12 - 08:48 PM If anyone is interested, I am willing to sing the tinkers version and add it. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: GUEST,liz horrocks Date: 23 Jun 13 - 02:39 PM I know this as a Guiding song, and have been trying to remember the words. Thank you! The posh version was known as the Commisioners version! Incidentally, I'nm from S Wales, and of coures it's small coal! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: Jim Dixon Date: 24 Jun 13 - 10:02 AM I was under the impression that British houses didn't have basements. Was I wrong? Is it different in the north than in the south? I'm pretty sure that the houses of my British relatives don't have basements--but then I have no idea where the occupants used to put their coal back when they used coal for heat. In the US, it varies a lot regionally. Where I live, in Minnesota, nearly all houses have basements. In the south, like Texas for example, almost no houses have basements. That's one reason tornadoes are so dangerous there; there's no place to hide. We northerners always go to our basements during tornado warnings (which aren't that frequent anyway). It was explained to me like this: When you build a house, you've got to dig below the frost line (that is, the deepest level to which the ground ever freezes) to lay the foundation, otherwise it will be unstable. In the north, this is so deep that you might as well excavate all the dirt between the walls and create a basement. In the south, where the ground never freezes, you can pour a concrete slab directly on the surface without excavating at all, so that's the way it's usually done. I have seen houses with partial basements, that is, a basement under part of the house, and a crawl space under the rest, but this is unusual. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: GUEST,Bill Beevers Date: 26 Aug 13 - 09:21 AM I'm interested to know more about "Beavers Bulldogs"and where it comes from as my grandmother used to breed bulldogs and her surname was Beevers,that's over 70 years ago now but I was wondering if there was any connection. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: Rumncoke Date: 26 Aug 13 - 10:04 AM I saw this in one of the Efdss magazines and asked about it on a visit to my home town of Barnsley - but despite my family being born and bred in the town no one had heard of it. I - being unable to read dots - never knew that the tune was much like 'oh my little Augustine' until I heard it sung for the only time. I was a member of the society for 40 years, so I have a fair few magazines - and I have lost a few too, so I can't lay my hands on it at the moment. The reason to have a fire in the summer time was not to burn the coal, it was because the back boiler of the fireplace was the only source of hot water other than the kettle, so if there was washing to do or people wanted baths, the fire had to be lit to heat the water. Houses which had a coal cellar used to have a metal covered hole in the pavement in front of the house which connected to a chute which deposited the coal into the bunker or stall in the cellar. The coal merchant had a tool which undid the lid and lifted it out so he could get access, then lock it down afterwards. The song, however, seems to refer to the lower living space in a house, usually the cheapest part to rent. The ground in front of houses was usually built up with the soil left from making the foundations level. The front door would be on the level above the cellar level, with steps going up to it, and there could be a side way in to steps down to the lower level which - when the house had servants, might be used by the senior staff. Lesser mortals and deliveries would be made at the back of the house, where the back door would be on the lower level and approached from a back alley. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: r.padgett Date: 27 Aug 13 - 03:29 AM Terrace property in Barnsley has/had a cellar which was around 6/7ft high and as stated by others above provided a firm foundation for the house built upon it! Our cellar had a separate stone sort of table (acted as a "fridge" and a number of "rooms" with stone steps down to it and one of the "rooms" was the coal cellar, or coal 'oil (the basement) the whole area was damp Yes miners received as part of pay free coal which was "loose" coal and often large pieces or "cobbs" the coalcame whilst the father was at work by and large and either the kids with help from the mother and neighbours would shovel the coal down the opened grate (metal and round often) and the coal would then need to be pulled down inside the cellar to make room to get it all in! The main source of heating was the front room coal fire which would have to be lit using sticks (chopped wood) and pages of the Barnsley chronicle and topped with coal slack ~ getting it to tek owld was a work of art and H & S would cringe at some methods employed!! including use of shovel and paper sheets to create a draught!! Petrol and parafin not recommended Coal hole = cellar 'oil, = coil oil Basement not a word we would know in Barnsley So the song can be found at www.yorshirefolksong.net the tune is that of a German folk song and was/is still current in older peoples memory! Provenance is still very illusive, Yorkshire /Lancashire and it seems many places in UK know it! the Lancashire version may well be traceable to Harry Boardman as he lived in Oldham some 3 miles from Greenfield and Saddleworth on the edge of Yorkshire/Lancs. and the song itself sung on charabanc trips from Working mens' clubs by kids mothers and all going on their holidays to Blackpool or Cleethorpes alternated with "Barnsley Anthem( [we're all dahn int cellar/coil oil and "You can't put your muck in our dustbin" and We're off in a motor car Ray |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: Musicboy Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:02 PM t.padgett, From the Winder's of Wyresdale, edited by Andy Hornby, "the tune was composed by Marx Augustin, an itinerant bagpiper from Vienna {i.e., Austria not Germany}, d. 1705. Popularised by singe Elisa Vetris,in 1826" If you read the lyrics that he gives it appears to be a song written by an expat Austrian, currently resident in England. I wonder if they are the original? I also wonder if MA pinched the tune from an earlier song. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: Musicboy Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:05 PM Oh, and if you haven't got Mr Hornby's excellent book, get it. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: reet down in t'coal hole- old'm tink From: GUEST Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:40 PM I'm a little dutch girl... The holly bears a berry... All the same tune |
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