Metasongs, songs within songs

Subject: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 11:11 AM

I know a country tune about what is going on "while the (pick an instrument) played the BONAPARTE'S RETREAT" but I don't know Bonaparte's Retreat. In The Green Fields of France/NO MAN'S LAND, they ask Did the band play The Last Post in chorus? Did the pipes play THE FLOWERS OF THE FOREST? but I've never heard either The Last Post (which is NOT Taps, right, just serves the same purpose?) nor Flowers of the Forest. What are the others that you know? And do you know the embedded song as well as the song doing the embedding? Just for fun, but since it's musical I didn't think the BS thread title appropriate, I know folks who filter those out to avoid the nonmusical threads...

[Many song titles in this thread have been converted to links by a Mudelf.]

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 11:27 AM

"AND THE BAND PLAYED WALTZING MATILDA" is often referred to on the Mudcat. Rick's "IF JESUS WAS A PICKER" mentions several bluegrass songs eg "Billy in the Low Ground".
RtS (not knowledgeable, but quick!)

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 11:41 AM

FAIRYTALE OF NEW YORK has ...and the boys of the NYPD choir were singing GALWAY BAY, while THE GALWAY SHAWL has a number of names of tunes in the lyrics.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 11:46 AM

Max Boyce's song "HYMNS AND ARIAS" mentions "Land of my fathers" and "AR HYD Y NOS (all through the night)"

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 11:58 AM

The Gaither Vocal Band does a gospel number called "I HEARD IT FIRST ON THE RADIO" that is gorgeous, and it pays homage to many of the great hymns of all time in musical phrases that are close, but not identical, to the actual melodies... there is also one I think is called "A SONG THE ANGELS CANNOT SING" where Amazing Grace is referenced, the idea being that angels can't say they were ever lost, blind, etc. There's another one I can't quite recall too, about a camp meeting, where various well-known camp meeting songs appear briefly from verse to verse.

What I love about these is that they are not medleys at all; they are completely integrated into the song in which they appear.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 11:59 AM

David Mallett's THE BALLAD OF SAINT ANNE'S REEL.

And my favorite Guy Clark line, from DUBLIN BLUES:

I have seen the David,
Seen the Mona Lisa, too.
I have heard Doc Watson
Play "COLUMBUS STOCKADE BLUES.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: JudeL
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 12:01 PM

Derrick Gifford has one which refers to various people singing things like THE LILY OF LAGUNA. I can't remember the title just the chorus:

I still can hear them singing
those melodies go ringing
they float out on the balmy evening air,
and I'd give a million pounds
to be free without bounds
yes I'd be singing with em
I'd be there

jude

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Grab
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 12:15 PM

"DEVIL WENT DOWN TO GEORGIA" mentions several tunes.

Dire Straits' "WALK OF LIFE" has a few (BE-BOP-A-LULA, WHAT'D I SAY).

Graham.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 06:17 PM

Bill Caddick's 'THE WRITING OF TIPPERARY' (the words of which don't seem to be in the DT nor in the Forum).

Subject: Lyr Add: THREE VERSES (Confederate Railroad)
From: Matt_R
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 06:34 PM

BTW I might mention that Seamus Kennedy does a bang-up rendition of The Writing of Tipperary.

THREE VERSES
As recorded by Confederate Railroad on "Notorious" (1995)

He had a Martin; I had a Fender; we were thirteen years of age.
Out back in the tool shed, we were searching for a sound.
Every day all through that summer, we'd rock 'n' roll 'n' rage.
All the neighbors kept complaining, but it never slowed us down.

We sang three verses of "Dixie," "Can't Get No Satisfaction,"
"Rainy Day Women Numbers 12 and 35,"
"Try a Little Tenderness," "A Whiter Shade of Pale,"
"Turn! Turn! Turn!," "For What It's Worth," and "Long Black Veil."

We moved out to California, shooting for the stars—
The biggest thing since Elvis; nothing could go wrong,
But they took us for all our money and everything else we owned,
So we got ourselves some whiskey and we drank it all night long.

We sang three verses of "Dixie," "Can't Get No Satisfaction,"
"Rainy Day Women," and "A Bad Moon on the Rise,"
"Try a Little Tenderness," "A Whiter Shade of Pale,"
"Turn! Turn! Turn!," "For What It's Worth," and "Long Black Veil."

Oh, he never quite got over it; we went our separate ways.
He traded in his music for cocaine nights and reckless days.
Still, I knew he always wanted to make one last journey home.

Near a small white church in the valley beneath a wooden bridge,
Patiently we waited on that cold Alabama ground,
And the preacher started preaching about our lives and about our times.
The sun was slowly sinking as we laid his body down.

And we sang three verses of "Dixie," "What a Friend We Have in Jesus,"
"Walk in the Garden," and "The Old Rugged Cross,"
"Try a Little Tenderness," "A Whiter Shade of Pale,"
"Turn! Turn! Turn!," "For What It's Worth," and "Long Black Veil."
We sang "Long Black Veil." (2x)

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 06:42 PM

I like that one, M; and I'd forgotten about And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda. More?

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Matt_R
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 06:55 PM

Uh oh! Mrrz, I sang that one on my second tape. Don't tell me I forgot to send you one!!

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Wendy_
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 07:02 PM

How about ALEXANDER'S RAGTIME BAND?

"and if you want to hear that Swanee River played in ragtime..."

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within song
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 07:12 PM

Of course there's ENGINE 143 and TITANIC both lead into NEARER, MY GOD, TO THEE.

And in a different context, three songs with national anthems or near national anthems: "ON THE ONE ROAD" leads into "A SOLDIER'S SONG"; "EDDYSTONE LIGHT" incorporates RULE BRITANNIA, and there's Dwight Yoakum's "I SANG DIXIE."

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Justa Picker
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 07:14 PM

ROLLING IN MY SWEET BABY'S ARMS and MY WALKING SHOES (Don't Fit Me Anymore).

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Joe_F
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 07:20 PM

"TURKEY IN THE STRAW" mentions a tune called "Turkey in the Straw" -- eating its own tail. "LOVE'S OLD SWEET SONG" also, arguably, mentions itself.

THE WHIFFENPOOF SONG mentions "SHALL I WASTING IN DESPAIR" and "MAVOURNEEN".

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 07:32 PM

I remember, as a kid, hearing (I think) Patti Page on the radio, singing, "I was dancin' with my darlin' to the TENNESSEE WALTZ . . . " and thinking, "Hey, wait a minute. This song IS the Tennessee Waltz. How could she have been dancing to it when it hadn't even been written yet?" It didn't occur to me that it might be just a songwriter's conceit. I figured there had to be a logical explanation. There must have been an earlier version of the song that had no words, or different words. Anyway, the paradox bothered me.

Later I learned that there are lots of songs like this. Douglas Hofstadter would call this "self-reference." I recommend his book, "Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid." Is it possible you've already read it, Mrzzy?

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 07:41 PM

Well they were out there on the sea,
And the band played, "Nearer, My God to Thee"--
Fare thee well, Titanic, fare thee well....

There's another one about a goose and a gander singing "Rally Round the Flag," which just might be a Southron take on a Union song [BATTLE CRY OF FREEDOM], if'n yawl catch mah drift.

I like the conceit about a song eating its own tail. I think "ALABAMA JUBILEE" does that too, depending on the version of words you use.

What was the name of the mellow rock song, "and the jukebox kept on playin' 'Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band'..." [SUMMER RAIN by Johnny Rivers]

CC

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 08:03 PM

In a sense the whole of Sergeant Pepper is one big metasong.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Sarah T
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 11:35 PM

What about "THE PIPER OF DUNDEE"?

He play'd "The Welcome Ower the Main"
And "Ye's Be Fou and I'se be Fain"
And "Auld Stuart's Back Again"
    Wi' muckle mirth and glee
He'd play'd "The Kirk", he play'd "The Queer"
"The Mullen Dhu" and "Chevalier"
And "Lang Awa' But Welcome Here"
    Sae sweet, sae bonnielie.

It's in the DigiTrad.

-Sarah

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Justa Picker
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 11:37 PM

As is the flip side of Abbey Road, McGrath.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:08 AM

The Keeper of the Eddystone Light" incorporates Rule Brittannia - Not my version? I know about the equinoctial gales, but that wasn't the Eddystone Light, it was Rule, Brittania, Brittania rules the waves, and Britains never never never shall be Married to a mermaid at the bottom of the deep blue sea. Nobody knows that song! Wow!

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,Keith A at work
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 03:09 AM

In THE BONNIE LASS OF FYVIE-O the pipes play The Lowlands of Fyvie, And the drums play something also (Braes of Dyce?)

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,Keith A still working
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 04:44 AM

SHANNON & CHESAPEAKE has lots of refs. to the Revolutionaries' fondness for playing Yankee Doodle Dandy.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Grab
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 09:22 AM

Recursive songs - "Crocodile Rock". Plus many 60s dance songs (MONSTER MASH, etc, etc)

On a classical front, how's about the 1812 Overture? Bits of the Russian and French national anthems, plus Russian folk songs.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 09:25 AM

Matt - no , no tape, fork it over, sounds great! And yes, Godel Escher Bach is a great book, indeed. I especially liked the Crab Canon. (No explanations - read the book!) - but that's a good point about the Tennessee Waltz, I'd never noticed it referenced ITSELF. I can't think of any others like that...? A song that mentions itself, rather than another song? And I don't quite count songs about musicians that enumerate the repertoire, I'm thinking more of songs that mention other songs as they tell whatever story they are telling, more like The Band Played Waltzing Matilda and less like THE PIPER THAT PLAYED BEFORE MOSES...

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: LR Mole
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:37 AM

Mr. Chicken: (I was going to address you as "Mr. Charlie", but...) The song you want is "SUMMER RAIN" by Johnny Rivers

("All summer long we spent dancin in the sand
And the jukebox kept on playin 'Sargeant Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band')

written by James Hendricks (not Jimi, but one who was married to Mama Cass for a while). He also wrote the songs used in the TV series "Then Came Bronson", including "Goin' Down That Long Lonesome Highway". Not the famous Bronson, either. Hendricks wrote another hit for Rivers around that time, too, but I can't get it now.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 11:17 AM

Here's a self-reference in a folk song:

"The only tune that fiddle would play was 'Oh, the Wind and Rain' . . ."

There are 2 versions in DT that contain this self-reference: THE WIND AND RAIN (Two Sisters), and OH, THE WIND AND RAIN (The Two Sisters) -- and several other versions of "The Two Sisters" (Child #10) that don't.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 11:26 AM

THE OLD ORANGE FLUTE mentions the "Protestant Boys" and several other sectarian songs

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: UB Ed
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 11:37 AM

Here's the verse Gervase referenced from THE GALWAY SHAWL

I played "THE BLACKBIRD" and "The Stack of Barley",
"RODNEY'S GLORY" and "THE FOGGY DEW",
She sang each note like an Irish linnet
Whilst the tears stood in her eyes of blue.

That's a GREAT song.

Ed

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 11:41 AM

Byker Hill references dancing to the tune of Elsie Marley.
It also does that self-reference thing (ish maybe) in talking about the pipers playing "The Bonnie Lass of Byker Hill". Or is there such a tune?

Kris

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Jim Krause
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:16 PM

There's a song that Si Kahn sings that mentions several Thomas Moore songs, and a few that are Scottish, I think. The titles I remember are The Last Rose of Summer, and I think possibly Burns' Auld Lang Syne. Oh what is the title of that song?
Jim

Subject: Lyr Add: TITLES OF SONGS^^
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:44 PM

Found at http://www.stanford.edu/~boneill/allsongs/rand1.html

From Vance Randolph, Ozark Folksongs V. III p. 282: "Titles of Songs."
Sung by Mr. Will Guilliams, Farmington Ark, Oct 22, 1941. Mr. Guilliams learned the song near
Farmington in the early 90's


TITLES OF SONGS^^


Friends, now listen for a while.
I'll not detain you long.
I'll tell you of the titles of
Some very ancient songs.

Mickey O'Flannagan he had a Bull Pup,
Down Where the Pansies Blow.
Don't You Leave Your Mother, Tom,
For Mary Kelly's Beau.

Tie White Wings and Peek-a-boo
With a Knot of Blue and Gray.
I got The Letter That Never Came
On Saint Patrick's Day.

I knew she'd Call Me Back Again
From Over the Garden Wall.
She and I was A Warrior Bold
The Day I Played Baseball.

Lorene, Maureen, Sally Green,
Little Widow Dunn,
All Alone, back Home Sweet Home,
And Johnny Get Your Gun.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 01:03 PM

Barry O'Neill at Stanford University has an amazing collection called OLD SONGS MADE UP OF SONG TITLES. He says, "This became a fad in the 1860's." The song I posted above is from his collection. Do you suppose O'Neill is acquainted with Hofstadter? Wasn't Hofstadter at Stanford when he wrote "Gödel, Escher, Bach"?

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Matt_R
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 03:21 PM

The second verse of Hootie and The Blowfish's "Only Wanna Be With You" goes:

Put on a little Dylan, sitting on a fence
I say "That line is great". You ask me what he meant by
"They said I shot a man named Gray
Took his wife to Italy
She inherited a million bucks and when she died, it came to me
I can't help it if I'm lucky."
I only wanna be with you

Ain't Bobby so cool?
Only wanna be with you
Well I'm tangled up in blue
Only wanna be with you

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 04:39 PM

Yup, Summer Rain. And "Oh, the Wind and Rain," lovely macabre thing that it is. For that matter, "BILE THEM CABBAGE DOWN" qualifies, as "The onliest song I ever did sing was 'Bile Them Cabbage Down.'"

CC

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: JenEllen
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 04:54 PM

Nanci Griffith's LISTEN TO THE RADIO:

'There's a moon across the border
In the Louisiana sky
I smell the Pontchartrain, I hear SILVER WINGS
And then away Merle Haggard flies'

~J

Subject: Lyr Add: GOIN' BACK TO HARLAN (Anna McGarrigle)
From: SDShad
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 05:04 PM

Kate and Anna McGarrigle's "Going Back to Harlan" has quite a few:

GOIN' BACK TO HARLAN
As recorded by Kate and Anna McGarrigle on "Matapedia" (1996)

There were no cuckoos, no sycamores
We played about the forest floor
Underneath the silver maples,
The balsams and the sky

We popped the heads off dandelions
Assuming roles from nursery rhymes
Rested on a river bank
And grew up by and by
And grew up by and by

Chorus:
Frail my heart apart and play me a little "Shady Grove"
Ring the bells of Rhymney 'til they ring inside my head forever
Bounce the bow, rock the gallows for the Hangman's Reel
And wake the Devil from his dream

I'm goin' back to Harlan
I'm goin' back to Harlan
I'm goin' back to Harlan

And if you were Willy Moore
And I was Barbry Allen
Or fair Ellen, all sad at the cabin door
A-weepin' and a-pinin' for love
A-weepin' and a-pinin' for love

Chorus

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Snuffy
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 05:09 PM

Tom he was a piper's son
Learned to play when he was young
All the tunes that he could play
Were 'OVER THE HILLS AND FAR AWAY'

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 12 Jun 01 - 06:48 PM

Joan Baez sings a song called (I think) 'MICHAEL', which is full of ironical references to other folk and protest songs and the folk scene in general. I haven't got the words down as I taped it from the radio ages ago and the tape is in bad shape now. Does anyone remember this song and could help with the words?

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: vlmagee
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 08:30 AM

Gordon Lightfoot has a song on his Sundown album called CIRCLE OF STEEL. It is a very haunting song, about poverty and despair, set against the backdrop of the Christmas season. It includes this verse:

"DECK THE HALLS" was the song they played
In the flat next door where they shout all day.
She tips her gin bottle back till it's gone.
The child is strong.
A week, a day, they will take it away
For they know about all her bad habits.

In addition, the first three notes of "Deck The Halls" are the starting notes of each verse, but there is no other similarity.

He has at least one other song reference that I remember, but it isn't as striking. It's from a song called ROMANCE, on the album "Salute." The line is:

They say that people don't change Like "HOME ON THE RANGE", it's original

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 09:22 AM

CYRIL SAID IT ALL BEFORE by Tom Lewis

Brian

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Grab
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 09:48 AM

Just heard another one today - [SWEET SOUL MUSIC by Arthur Conley. 1967] "Do you like good music" goes through a load of 60s soul music.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Mark Clark
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:11 AM

Mrrzy, The country song you remember (By Pee Wee King, I think) is called "BONEPARTE'S RETREAT." It set words to an old fiddle tune of the same name and refers to the fiddle tune (metasong) in the lyrics. Pee Wee changed the timing of the tune and added the snake dance part which many modern fiddlers have now adopted.

Other metasongs include "UNCLE PEN":

He played an old tune called Soldiers Joy
and another called The Boston Boy
but the greatest of all was Jenny Lynd,
to me that's where the fiddle begins

"THE HILLS OF ROANE COUNTY":

put one of my songs in your letter for me

and "THE LITTLE WHITE CHURCH":

they would sing the old song "Rock Of Ages"
Christ let me hide myself in thee.

Many other examples exist, I expect we'll collect a bunch of them right here.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:21 AM

All those one-song dance crazes you thought you'd forgotten (BONY MORONIE, MASHED POTATOES etc.) are mentioned in one of the Blues Brothers [originally The Contours] numbers. Is it DO YOU LOVE ME (NOW THAT I CAN DANCE)?

RtS (I can remember the Twist but I don't think the old back is up to it these days!)

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Tiger
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:45 AM

Tom Paxton's "DID YOU HEAR JOHN HURT?" is a nice one.

He weaves in "MY CREOLE BELLE", "Spanish Fandango" and "CANDY MAN BLUES" - doesn't just mention them.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 02:41 PM

Right on, Roger. And there were others before the fifties/sixties. Is the song with the line, "You'll find them all/Doing the Lambeth Walk" itself called "THE LAMBETH WALK"? I think so.

CC

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,John Leeder
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 03:43 PM

Paddy Tunney's "THE HURRICANE OF REELS" (recently recorded by Cathal McConnell) works a lot of reel titles into the lyrics.

The Kipper Family's "NORTHREPPS TWELFTH NIGHT SONG" (did I get the title right, without the tape at hand?) says "We've sung 'Greensleeves' and 'The Wild Rover'" as the typical songs for a tacky drunken festivity.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Barbara
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:16 PM

The Finest Kind sing a song written by group member Shelley Posen called Fa-Sol-La about discovering Shape Notes. In the middle of the song the lyrics say that his favorite Shape Note is "Showers of Blessings" and then it modulates up a fourth and goes into the "fuging" part of the song, and then back to Shelley's melody for one more verse.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: toadfrog
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 11:41 PM

This thread reminded me of a song which makes a very interesting use of an internal hymn; anyone interested may CLICK HERE.

And has anyone mentioned "I WANNA GO BACK TO DIXIE"? It contains parodies of at least 5 songs, in just 2 verses!