Blunt, unabashed opinion II

Subject: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: GUEST,Gordon
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 05:04 PM

Wow! Didn't expect all that response. Looked like I offended some folks, tickled others, and just annoyed the hell out of catspaw. What the heck, here's round two of my unabashed opinions:

Rosewood has a ringing, bell-like tone; very powerful. While you have to sort of admire the powerful ringing of it, it lacks in warmth and mellowness.

Maple is sort of a smoother, slightly subdued rosewood. It has a consistency of tone, and balance from top to bottom that perhaps rosewood lacks.

Mahogany has a warmth, brightness and mellowness that I personally love, and sufficient volume for my moderate volume finger-picking style.

Koa I would describe as somewhere between Maple and Mahogany. It has smoothness and balance like Maple, though not nearly as much ring, and it has a subdued warmth. Very nice, intriguing (sp?) tone, but I prefer Mahogany.

Walnut is a lot like Mahogany, but I feel it's a little less warm, a little less bright. Very solid sound though.

More? What the heck, I'm bold, brave, undaunted and utterly foolish enough to utter my little squeaks here among the tall trees. Here goes:

Big bodied guitars kick butt with their huge sound, but for my money, the smaller body has a presence and clarity the big fella can't touch.

By the way, thanks Rick Fielding for the virus warning. I've hired the best consultant money can buy to innoculate my computer to at least hopefully minimize the damage.

Gordon

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 07:41 PM

lIKE i SAID, THIS GUY KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT. (Damn capslock) So, what do you think of one that has mahogany back and sides, with a redwood face?

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: GUEST,Gordon
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 11:25 PM

Thanks Kendall for the reply, I figured I wouldn't make much of a hit with my blatent thoughts on tonewoods. Don't know a thing about Redwood. For that matter, what happens when you use a typical back & sides wood for the top as well, as in an all Koa, or all Walnut guitar. Anybody heard an all Mahogany? What happens? See, I ain't no expert, just a loudmouth.

Guess nobody liked my thoughts on body size neither.

Gordon

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 12:05 AM

LOL.....You're an obvious newbie if you think I'm annoyed at all!!! I loved it, it's just the style. Welcome to the 'Cat.

Here's a previous thread you might enjoy that ties in with this one. You'll recognize the "usual suspects."

Spaw

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: GUEST,Steve N.
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 07:24 PM

Played an all mahogany Martin D-15 (new) recently. For the $ it was not only the easiest-playing but also the sweetest sounding thing in the shop. And I'm the sourpuss who hates NEW guitars.

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: Justa Picker
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 07:42 PM

Gordon.....You said: "Rosewood has a ringing, bell-like tone; very powerful. While you have to sort of admire the powerful ringing of it, it lacks in warmth and mellowness.

If you have some time on your hands, I'd suggest a visit here and have a listen...and see if you still feel that way. All of these recordings were done on various older Martins.


Cheers,
"JP"

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 09:10 PM

Gordon. Catspaw is holding it in pretty well, but he is definitely the most sensitive Mudcatter around here, as far as taking offence. Perhaps if you told him you were a BIG FAN of his favourite lyricist Neil Young, he'd feel better. Some folks prefer Shakespeare, some Keats, but when our Spaw first read the lyric "I am a child, I last a while"...well he knew he'd found a poet for the ages.

Now as far as Captain Kendall Morse goes.... obviously a seafarin' man who blames his "Capslock" because he can't spell the word "like" is hardly someone you want opinions from. I'm afraid sometimes MY capslock fails to operate as well, but I just have a cup of Ginseng Tea, and try again.

What I really want to talk to you about though, is "BODY SIZE". Here in the folk music world, we don't discriminate against any body size. Most people around here have only ONE label on their evening wear...XXXL.

As far as "sound" goes though, it's damned hard to get a consistant feel unless a very skilled player is playing the same passage on several (different wooded) instruments of the same vintage. A lot depends on whether the player uses fingerpicks, flatpick or no picks, and whether they play "tight chords" (no unwanted notes ringing sympathetically) or not. One of the biggest variables is string brand and guage (and how often you change 'em)

Having said that, if someone wanted to loan me a 1950s D-28 for Bluegrass playing, an early sixties J-45 for Blues, and a forties 000 45 for the rest of it, I wouldn't turn 'em down.

Rick

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: Justa Picker
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 09:21 PM

A lot depends on whether the player uses fingerpicks, flatpick or no picks, and whether they play "tight chords" (no unwanted notes ringing sympathetically) or not. One of the biggest variables is string brand and guage (and how often you change 'em)

Spot on.

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 09:23 PM

I was mocking someone who didn't rise to the bait.

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 09:28 PM

It's true......Rick has given you a glance into that which I so deeply admire and although I try, I simply cannot help but become angered over any affront to Neil. Once you listen to him and watch him play, that deep and intensely sensitive face coupled with such mental brilliance cannot help but hook you. Only in James Taylor can I find almost an equal in such drive, energy, and force.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: mooman
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 05:46 AM

Here's a riddle for you Gordon!

What about solid Bubinga back and sides, Englemann spruce top and the equivalent (so I'm told!) of something halfway between 0000-18 and 000-18 size (though I'd say more 000-18 myself!)? Be careful on this one though!

You sound like a guy who knows what he's talking about on these matters and I look forward to some good new NERD threads (which have been somewhat lacking in recent weeks)!

As you can see 'Spaw loves this sort of thing, as do I!

Just don't get onto strings unless you really want to stir a hornets' nest up!

mooman

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 07:08 AM

STRINGS? DID YOU SAY STRINGS? Slowly I turn, step by step...

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: GUEST,Gordon
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 10:36 AM

Wow! Still reeling at the responses. Mooman, it's a heavy exaggeration to say that I know what I'm talking about, and certainly can't qualify as a NERD. Just have strong--though realtively uninformed--opinions. Hell I just brazonly threw my narrow little ideas out there, and am still amazed at the depth of experience with which folks have replied. I wouldn't know a real luthier if I tripped over his catspaw. And I have no idea what Bubinga is, much less what to make of the particular combination you described.

Spaw, in the interests of breaking the ice between us (not that there really is any) let me tell you a quick story from back when I was helping out on a neighbor's carpentry job. One of the carpenters there was a very competent fellow. We needed to take something apart in a hurry. I had the catspaw in my hand, but handed it to the carpenter saying, 'Here, I'm sure you're more experienced with this than I am.' He took it from me with the comment, 'Well, if I'm more experienced with it than you, then I must make a lot more mistakes than you.'

Thanks, Spaw for the pointer to the rosewood thread. I'll be reading it more than once. I noticed when someone asked you what you would look at when shopping, Collings was the first, and much praised, instrument you mentioned. I just played my first Collings the other day, and was VERY impressed.

And thank you Rick for your patient approach to my rather arrogant behavior. I know you'all are working patiently to get me calmed down and acting reasonably. I'll get there. But, if I'm to heed your advice and not listen to Kendall, then I'll have to conclude I really don't know what I'm talking about.

But to get to the meat: While I acknowledge the mudcat addage that it's in the ear of the behearer, surely there must be rules of thumb; general characteristic sound types which tend to follow this or that variance in the different factors: tonewoods, body size and shape, construction methods, color of the luthier's eyes, etc. If there were no more or less consistent tendencies, why make different types of guitar? Just close the eyes and build, hoping for that unique instrument that has the good stuff? I know that's carrying it too far, but for emphasis of the point. For example, what difference in sound is the luthier hoping for when he builds an all mahogany machine as opposed to the standard spruce topped one? Surely he anticipates a particular result based a rule of thumb? Sure there are exceptions, but can't I get somebody to generalize like I do, even for a moment?

Hope the following clarifies my complaint with Rosewood: I'm a finger-picker (though I just strum gently for some songs). I pick fairly intricate, fast stuff sometimes (come back here, modesty, I need you now!). With a top-end Rosewood instrument, the result rings all over the place, as Rosewood does, but it's mushy and sort of brash (like me). It loses the quality of each note being clear. But with mahogany, each note has its say, and fast finger-picking sounds great.

Similar thing happens--even more so--with large vs small bodies. With the large body (I'm talking any well made high end box, now) fast finger-picking just drowns itself out. But give me a smaller body, and mahogany, and I'm in hog heaven. The notes stand out clear and warm, and they don't run over each other. (Even a large bodied mahogany is too ringy for me).

Brash conclusion: In my experience (which I admit is really quite limited), Rosewood vs Mahagany, and large vs smaller produce fairly consistent patterns in the kind of sound. I think dread/Rose is a great combination for flat-picking. You want that big, ringing sound, and you're playing (albeit fast) either one note at a time, or chords, both of which sound great. But the finger picker is playing high and low in quick sucsession (sp?) and they mush together in the dread/Rose box. By the way, I'm not where I have access to any good, older instruments, so that too limits my experience.

I do want to get into strings, but maybe not yet, or maybe I should brashly start another unabashed thread. Really I know nothing about strings, so don't have any abrasive opinions to offer, only questions.

Sorry to be such a newbie. I haven't even looked around here much, nor gone through the FAQ, nor learned to do searches, nor nothin'. My free ISP gives me 15 hours a month, and I'm a bit too strapped to pay for more (and much to strapped to be talking about nice expensive guitars), so I don't have online time to do much browsing (I wrote this off line). I just jumped in with all fours and love it. Whip me if I do dumb stuff.

Gordon

P. S. What does LOL mean?

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 12:22 PM

It means laugh out loud. ROTFLMAO is a more exuberant version, I leave you to work out the acronym. We have had numerous string threads (thread strings?), none of which made any sense to me, since I am acoustically challenged. One question -- as environmentalist -- what of graphite?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 12:41 PM

Gordon, you'll fit in well here.........You can research past threads by entering appropriate words in the FILTER box and setting the Refresh for 2 or 3 years. Try it before you start a new thread. Enter -STRING- in the filter and refresh for 3 years and see what all you get. We've talked about a wide variety of subjuects here as you'll see. If you are interested in, say, Elixir strings......to the left at the top of the page is another box labeled Digitrad and Forum Search. Enter -Elixir- See waht threads and messages you get.

Take some time and read the FAQ on how to search the Mudcat and also to give yourself a feel for the place. Welcome aboard....Good to have you around.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 09:09 PM

Wait a minute. Ignoramus alert and thread creep alert all in one. I had a friend a long long time ago who used to say Slowly I turn, step by step, but I always thought it was something he made up. But kendall just used it as if it were a quote, what did I miss by not growing up in the US?

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: Midchuck
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 09:27 PM

It was from one of the old movie comedy combos - The Marx Brothers or the 3 Stooges or one of them. It actually starts out "'Niagara Falls!'" Slowly I turn...."

I never heard the whole thing myself, but my father in law used to quote it.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 09:40 PM

Actually, it's an old Vaudeville routine known as "The Niagara Falls Bit" and was on both Vaudeville and Burlesque circuits for many years. With film, radio, and television, the NFB became associated most closely with two acts and it kinda' depends on your age and taste as to which one you recall or credit it too. It was made famous by both "Abbott and Costello" and also "The Three Stooges." Neither can claim it as original because it was probably used by a generation or two on stages from New York to Peoria.

Take your pick Mrrzy.....I'm a Bud and Lou man myself. (but their famous "Who's on First" routine was also equally aged)

Spaw

Subject: RE: Blunt, unabashed opinion II
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 11:39 PM

Spaw, Peter and Mrz. You've just given me an idea for a usless non-music thread.

And don't get on my case Purists, 'cause I start lots of useless MUSIC threads as well!!

Rick