BS: Minority languages

Subject: Minority languages
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 10:55 AM

My Scottish husband really loves to wind me up and we had a humdinger of an argument last night. He says that minority languages like Welsh (my language!), Gaelic, Breton etc. should all be allowed to die and should not be supported by the taxpayer in the form of bilingual signs, official forms, TV programmes and so on. Apart from the fact that so many good songs are written in these languages, I feel that they are still part of our heritage and deserve to be supported and encouraged. In fact I believe that the number of Welsh speakers in Wales has increased in recent years. What do you think? Should these languages go the way of Anglo-saxon and Old Norse. Or is there hope in this increasingly English-speaking world?

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 11:04 AM

Dear Lyndi-loo, please slap your husband upside the head for me. He's obviously just trying to rile you and deserves a good thumping. :-)
Of course minorities languages should be kept alive as long as we are able to do so!
Come to think of it, just give me your address. I'll smack him myself!

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: sian, west wales
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 11:16 AM

yeh, he's a wind-up artist. Suspend all privileges. All languages add to the rich tapestry of creative thought. I value all opportunities to work with people who speak other languages - you get a far more divers response to problem solving. Minority language-speakers also have a greater grasp of the problems of struggling against the odds.

In Wales (as you know!) if I had kids, I'd send them to Welsh-language schools even if I didn't speak Welsh because the overall commitment of the teachers is greater because they're dedicated both to teaching and to preserving their culture. I'm saying this from experience: when I was a theatre marketing officer in Cardiff, Welsh medium schools were miles ahead of their English counterparts in bringing kids to theatre and all arts events.

Oh - here's an interesting bit: at the time of the French Revolution, only a third of the population of present day (geographical) France spoke French. Somewhere, too, I have another snippet scribble down ... something like, on average, there are three languages to be found in every European nation state.

Yeh, he's winding us up...

O bydded i'r Hen Iaith barhau!

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 11:43 AM

Good idea, and while we are at it, close every restauraunt that is not McDonnals and Burger King, and replace all the small mom and pop stores with a K-Mart, and while your at it, shoot all the folk musicians.... some people! Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Mountain Dog
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 11:55 AM

Nearly twenty years ago, I spent several evenings in a B&B in London run by a charming gentleman named Dyffd Llewellyn Thomas. At breakfast the first morning, his two children tumbled into the parlor and prattled on to him in a most musical way, he answering in fond parental tones. As quickly as they had entered, they whirled away, leaving their father with a kiss apiece and cheerful words of parting.

Dyffd looked at us with a smile and said:

"They speak English, too. With their Mum. She's a London girl. I've spoken to them in Welsh ever since they were born."

"Don't they find it confusing?" asked my companion.

He looked at her in surprise.

"Not at all," he said. "They know that Mum speaks English and Dad speaks Welsh. I think it's important for'em to know both their native languages.

"Besides," he said quietly, "There's not so many of us left, now, and I want someone to pass it along to the next generation."

I couldn't help but think, then and today, how rich a gift Dyffd Llewellyn was giving to his children and with what unassuming grace.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: MMario
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 12:06 PM

here! here! One of the big gripes my sibs and I have with my Dad is that he didn't teach us Italian when we were young. (He could have easily - it was his birth tongue - he spoke little to no english until he entered school)

A young friend of mine was tri-lingual from the cradle - english for public life, german with her dad and chinese with her mom.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Mountain Dog
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 01:52 PM

It strikes me that if the English language were suddenly forced to give back all of its "borrowed words" to the lands and cultures from which it acquired them, it would be a fairly sorry assortment of keenings, squawks and grunts rather than one of the richest linguistic stews imaginable...

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Charmion
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 02:06 PM

We Canadians could give lessons on the bad manners that can arise around minority languages -- especially when people start staking out rights entitlements in language territory. The truly bilingual are actually a small minority; the rest of us manage some degree of compromise between expression and comprehension. A few (probably about the same proportion as the truly bilingual) flat-out refuse to learn The Other Language or refuse to use what they know of it. For them, it's clearly a rear-guard action in an ideological war.

I live and work in Ottawa, a genuinely bilingual border city with a very ethnically mixed population. I'm not sure which is the minority language here, but there are days when I think it's the Queen's English.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 02:19 PM

Interesting thoughts on education, Sian. I can't speak through personal expericence but in Llandudno area, the Welsh secondary school always seemed to have the best reputation.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 02:24 PM

Inuit, Gaelic, and Welsh, are wonderful languages that will not die as long as the people continue to use them. Modern English evolved from several languages. At the time of the Norman conquest the only written language at the Court of England was Latin, the predominant spoken language was French. with the influence of British tribes and Nordic languages, Welsh and Gaelic, our language evolved into modern English. Since the days of the Empire/Commonwealth we adopted words from India Africa and several other countries too. I hate to see the demise of any language, but it is the love of use that keeps them alive, and pride of culture. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 02:31 PM

I'm glad I wasn't the one wto bring up Canada, 'cause I'm not so nice about it!

I agree with the man... Culture SHOULD NOT be supported by the government! Especially when minority culture is supported to the exclusion of majority...

you want to send your kids to school to learn Gaelic, Latin, French, Klingon, whatever... Anything outside the 'public school' curriculum, then you better be prepared to pay for it!!!

Wanna know what I say to Quebec Language Nazis?!?! Tough... you lost the war... life sucks... go ahead... seperate... we'll push the borders back to the original 5 mile limit north of the St Lawrence...

Baaah!

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Charmion
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 02:48 PM

Hoo, boy! ClintonHammond gives great demonstration!

One reason to ride the Ottawa city bus is the language melange--Chinese, Somali, Polish, Vietnamese, Russian, several kinds of French (you get good at telling them apart) and, occasionally, English. I often wonder what secrets are being exchanged by new Canadians who are quite sure that the blond, blue-eyed lady with the big brown purse doesn't understand a word they say. Most of them are right, of course, but not the German-speaking ones! You'd think they'd know better; this town is full of old soldiers, many of whom served four-year NATO tours in Germany, and took their wives and kids with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: sian, west wales
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 06:03 AM

But Clint, if that was a valid argument (you want **minority language ** - you pay for it) we'd have all-Welsh schooling in Wales. That is: Welsh has become a minority language due to invasion of one sort or another. When it wasn't in the minority, different excuses were used ... whatever was necessary to prove the case of (in this particular instance) English.

In the early days of modern Welsh lang. education (not so long ago - 50, 60 years?) we did want it, we did pay for it, and it's become so respected that we're winning the case for more state schools.

One of the weaknesses of the Canadian system is that it's grounded in the politics of the two main invading nations, rather than in cultural or local relevance. I grew up in southern Ontario and I'll bet that there were more Italians and eastern Europeans in town than French - or perhaps equal numbers. But we only learned English and French in school. Seems to me that I saw some figures on language groups in Alberta, and French fell far below almost anything else - German had more speakers. But French was the 'other' language taught. Needless to say, Native languages weren't even in the game.

However, I vaguely recall from the sixties that there did exist some provision for kids with second languages to try exams and get credit for 'roots' languages - they just didn't get the instruction in school. I don't know if that's still around.

But to come back to the joys of diversity, here's a test question:

Lot's of 'Catters speak various languages. What words do you know for 'snowflake'? In Welsh, it's snow feather (pluen eira). I know it's a minor example, but knowing that, in Welsh, helps me with creative writing in English.

Gotta go. Work calls. (boo-hiss)

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 07:50 AM

All languages are minority languages. It's just that some of the minorities are larger than the other ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: English Jon
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 08:21 AM

Wat zeg je? een Moilikke Spraake wie Nederlaans will niet sterben. Ik weet well dat jemand prattlet ook Engels, mar je kunt immer spraak een andere taal.

Dutch Jon (best I can do -haven't drunk enough yet)

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: GUEST,Airto
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 08:39 AM

Maybe your husband is right in a perverse sort of way, Lyndy-loo.

Minority languages only seem to do well when they become a rallying point. The use of Gaelic in Ireland is in serious decline in spite of all attempts to revive it. It is an official language and everyone learns it at school.

What's needed to get it going again is a bit of persecution. The only place where the language is doing well is west Belfast.

Basque and Catalan are also doing well. Franco banned them and encouraged migration of non-speakers from other regions. The Russians did the same thing in the Baltic states. Nowadays these places have become quite intolerant of Spanish and Russian speakers respectively.

Luxembourg offers a different example. The growing popularity of Luxembourgish among the locals parallels the increase in the number of foreigners living there (now up to around 40%), yet there is no anti-foreigner sentiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 08:42 AM

Don't piss on Clinton too heavily. Being from the ONLY officially bilingual province in Canada, coming from Irish and French stock, and being a reasonable person, I can understand Clinton's view of the Quebecois Nazis. Slightly less than 50% of PQers would separate from Canada based upon the idea of "distinct society", quite literally a racist ideology. The fact that they can't tolerate a slightly more than 50% minority and attempt to assimilate it or drive it out of PQ with the sign laws and forced "French only" schooling for those who cannot prove that English is their "first" language, is embarrassing to the majority of Candians, to say the least.

This is a VERY touchy subject to many Canadians and even more complex. It would take volumes to discuss all the aspects of the situation, but I believe that today it is more economically driven by those in power because those who could separate PQ would stand to become vastly rich in the development and sale of natural resouces to New England, especially water and power.

Clinton... even though PQ signed an agreement upon joining Confederation saying withdrawl from the federation would be accompanied by the return to Canada of the territories granted in that agreement, the Quebecois have stated that they would respond to any attempt to redraw PQ's borders with force. Now, Pierre called their bluff in 1973 when he rolled troops through the streets of Montreal and Quebec City, but I wonder if anyone has the balls to lock and load today ?

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 08:45 AM

Yes English/Dutch Jon, you illustrate the decline in languages. When's the last time you met a Dutch person who didn't speak better English than you? They realise that in the modern world they need English, but are they doing it at the expense of their own language? The Academie Francais is also desperately trying to stem the tide of Anglicisation by inventing new French (?) words for modern technology e.g. a computer is an ordinateur. They have even passed an edict requiring French radio stations to play three French songs for every English one. They can see the writing on the wall, but how sad it makes me feel. I do not want the Celtic languages to go the same way

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: English Jon
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 08:59 AM

Well, I wouldn't say that the Dutch speak better english than me, you know? but for sure, their English is a lot better than my Dutch.

EJ

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 09:06 AM

Interesting that we haven't had any USA folks in here yet considering the amount of attention this subject has gotten over the past ten years. Nothing like grabbing a cab driven through a majorcity by some guy from the middle east or trying to buy a pack of butts from someone from who knows where.........

"Pack of Camels please"
"Gabwd frohjebk?"
"Uh, pack of Camels"
"Brisnw cjgeif nfnwofne."
"Cigarettes.....Smokes.......Camels"
"Rpsmdghwkgh teekfibwfr oogo ort?"
"Yeah, right....CAMELS!"
"Ahwsontr boola hrewfla"
"Aw just go fuck yourself...yeah, FUCK YOU!!"
"Kay trwmtiou? Fuck you too."
"Oh goodie...you do know some English!!!"
"Fuck? Froingfherk bwekfopberu orignbf!" "Yeah great....Gimmee a fuckin' pack of fuckin' Camels."

This is why I don't carry a gun.

We've always had so many minority languages that until recently and the age of PC it hasn't been thought of as a topic. But now..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Snuffy
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 09:12 AM

Sian, you're right about finding poetry in the way other languages look at things. "Snow feather" is beautiful. The german word for thimble literally translates as "finger-hat", and a glove is a "hand-shoe". And I believe Turkish doesn't have a word for brother or sister - there is a word that translates as "womb-mate" and you have to use it with the words for boy or girl

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: GUEST,chrisj
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 11:35 AM

'cultural nazism' is the extremists response to the seemingly irresistable onslaught of the new 'Four Horsemen': 'Globalisation', 'MacDonaldisation', 'Coca-colonisation' and 'Hollywood'.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 11:39 AM

If we follow the logic through to its ultimate conclusion we should all start learning Mandarin.
RtS (English, French and kitchen Greek is enough for me!)

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Caitrin
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 12:17 PM

Spanish language teaching has been a big deal here in Eastern North Carolina--we get a large number of migrant workers here, and therefore end up with a lot of Spanish speakers in the public schools. We have some people here who are -determined- that there will be -no- teaching in Spanish for those kids, forcing them to simply "sink or swim." While this method of language learning does work eventually, I'm sure it's -very- stressful on those kids. Just because "no one helped my great grandma learn English", it doesn't mean that way was -good-. I get extremely annoyed with the people here who insist on saying "They'll just have to learn English, we're not helping." especially since their major argument seems to be "That's the way it's always been done."

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Jimmy C
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 12:36 PM

There is little chance of Gaelic or Welsh dying out. Welsh is still widely spoken and Gaelic is being spoken in Ireland by more people than ever before. I do not think that governments in America, Canada or other places should use taxpayer's money to support foreign languages, however the Welsh, Scottish and Irish Governments certainly should.

If a person who speaks two languages, then you have 2 people, and that is a positive situation rather that a negative.

Language is a part of ones culture and should be preserved, but not at a cost to people who are not part of that particular culture.

Lyndi-Loo - I suspect your husband is having an argument just for the sake of winding you up as you said.

Slainte

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 12:40 PM

a lot of a country's culture is preserved and embodied in it's language, so preserving that language is important.....but as globalization proceeds, it is ALSO important that we be able to communicate ideas, negotiate treaties and contracts, compare opinions, share experiences....and, like 'spaw so 'eloquently' demonstrates, just buy a product without confusion and mis-understanding.

We have several languages which have worked their way to the top of the heap for international communication, with English sort of the universal default for the internet and most trade. This happened partly because of clout, and partly because it has about as much adapatibility and nuance and any...and continues to add new terminology all the time.

Bi-lingualism is VERY important, as there are things to be said in a native language that simply don't translate to English or French or Mandarin, but DEMANDING that schools teach all the childern of immigrants in their native language is totally hopeless. There is constant pressure in the US to have Spanish classes in schools, but this ignores the fact that we have 40-50 other language groups now who could easily ask for the same privileges.

I TOTALLY support retaining knowlege and language from one's native culture, but if you are going to live IN country 'X', then BE part of that country and ***learn*** the language and customs of it. Anything else just promotes clashes and ill feeling as ethnic groups form sub-communities and try to maintain a bit of Slobbovia or Elbonia in England, Canada, France, The USA or Germany.

(I know a fellow who married a woman from Spain many (25-30?) years ago, and they have lived in the US ever since, and she will 'barely' use English: her pronunciation and grammar are abominable, and she wants/expects everyone she meets to 'do' the fake cheek kiss that SHE grew up with in Spain....and she feels slighted when topics, menus and social gatherings vary from HER idea of correct.....(extreme example? sure...but in a major melting pot like Wash DC, I see this all the time in various ways)

(those of us in the USA who have moved from one cultural area to another...Texas to Delaware, Minnesota to Mississippi, Kansas to Maryland..*grin*, will know that even 'technically' speaking the same language ain't always enough!)

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 01:41 PM

Gnu...

If it came down to it, you can bet your sweet bippy that every vet of ever war that fought to keep Canada free would "lock and load"!

Hell, even a no good peace-nick hippy long hair nancy wet girls blouse like me would march to keep Canada Canada...

My Canada includes Quebec, and I'm willing to go to war to keep it that way!!!

And Ontarians wonder why I can't wait for the wife to get transfered out west... Ya think BC gives a rats ass about Quebec??? Too far away to care about!

Sorry for the thread drift...

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: RichM
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 02:29 PM

In Canada, and I suspect anywhere else that *english* is the majority language---there is very little tolerance of other languages.

My mother recalls being told to speak *white* when overheard speaking to her family in public, in her native language (french).

Perhaps it's understandable that there is a resurgence and a pride of language and culture among Quebecers.

As a bilingual fr/anglo--more or less half french/half irish product of a marriage between a bilingual Quebequois mother and a unilingual father, I can tell you there's more to the equation than the simplistic explanation espoused by those who are unilingual English in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 03:06 PM

I wish the miraculous babelfish (push the Translate blue clicky below) would start providing translation facilities for a few more languages.

Also that more people whose native language isn't English would start using the facility in order to take part in the Mudcat.

Everyone needs a second language. It's one thing that native English speakers are often very unfairly deprived of. In the British Isles most people get abroad from time to time to places where they speak other languages, so something rubs off. US Americans should be really grateful that Spanish is now effectively becoming a secondary language for them in their own country, since most of them don't ever get abroad.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 03:11 PM

Sure... everyone needs a 2nd language... and the smart thing to do would be to standardise globally ONE form of sign language... and teach everyone that!

But hell, we can't even get a pub full of people to agree on any one thing, so getting this whole planet full of stupid, narrow minded people to agree on ANYTHING is not even worth the effort of trying...

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 03:14 PM

IMO, there are two sides to this. On the one hand, there are "minority" languages and there are "minority" languages. I get truly bored with my fellow Americans frequently being so arrogant; there are too many stories of Mexican kids punished for speaking Spanish in school, etc. If a language has any kind of literature, it should be treated with respect.

On the other hand: If you accept the assumption that having the United States continue in its present form rather than to be split and "Balkanized," then there has to be a cultural identity shared by all citizens, and unfortunately, Switzerland and Belgium notwithstanding, it would seem to be past the limits of most Anglophone Americans to be bilingual. If we don't maintain a common language, we will not have a common culture, and we will not really be "one nation." The dissolution of the USA (or the UK?) into several cultural enclaves would not be all good, despite what the many "nativists" would argue.

Second--If we assume that technical information (medical info., scientific info., etc.) is helpful to mankind, we set ourselves a horrendous task if we insist on translating it into every language spoken in every little enclave in the Third World. To use Bible translators as an example--there are folks out there dedicated to translating Holy Writ into every known language so nobody has to change. I think the down side of that is that if you teach someone to read in a language no one else speaks, you cut him/her off from a much bigger world. I frankly think that those people ought to be taught whichever major European or Asian language makes most sense for their region; they would then have access to much more info than if they remain as they are.

I would not advocate an "English only" world, but perhaps we could do with as few as a dozen or so major languages which ought to really be promoted wherever possible. I think Mario Pei figured eleven languages cover the "developed" world.

CC

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 03:42 PM

it would seem to be past the limits of most Anglophone Americans to be bilingual. Well I understand that in a lot of places in the USA the Anglophones are in a minority, and the majority of people are bilingual. So they'll just have to extend their limits if they want to get by.

And they will too. Just because someone is an English monoglot doesn't mean they are thick.

But Clinton's comment about sign language as a universal alternative language makes a lot of sense. Nobody has worked out a way to do sign language on the net though so far. Has anybody ever tried to work out a way to do written sign language which would incorporate the universal quality of sign language? Is it even conceivable that that might in fact be possible?

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 03:48 PM

There are sooo many different Sign Languages that I'm sure trying to get the worl to pick just one would be another effort in futility...

Just so long as the garbage that is english ISN'T the global launguage!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 03:49 PM

Sign language isn't universal. ASL has a lot of signs which are composed of the first letter of the object/action in English. Presumably somebody from a non-English speaking country wouldn't "read" these signs the way an English-speaker would.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 06:53 PM

there are computer fonts for almost everything..(I have a couple of sign language fonts)...it wold be easy enough to do, if anyone could agree on what it should contain..but I guess you could say the same about a language...Esperanto barely hangs on...

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 06:57 PM

There are sign languages from many different countries. ASL is "based on" the French sign language. A really good book to read about sign language and the world of the Deaf is Oliver Sacks' Seeing Voices.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 07:34 PM

I can see an Eskimo in mittens, trying to sign 27 different words for snow..... to a Hawaiian....

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 07:45 PM

I gather the 27 words fro snow is a myth. Pity. But in any case, as I understand it, the thing about pure sign language is that it isn't words as such that are being signed (and I know that the sign language people use are in fact full of words).

In a way I'd imagine that pure sign language would be more analogous to Chinese ideograms, where the same ideogram can be read as totally different words in different varieties of Chinese, but have the same meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Cobble
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 08:33 PM

Listen to Karen of Cappercallie sing, hope its spelt right, and tell me money is the only driving key to letting these languages die. IF you think so You are bloody SICK.

COBBLE.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 09:25 PM

One of my greater embarrasments, as an American, is this current thrust to make English as the 'official' language. (I have several other embarrasments also). My Fathers' native language is Finnish. When I was a kritter growing up, he would NEVER speak Finn around home, unless he lost his temper. When I was about 40, the "Nordic Heritage Museum" opened up in Ballard, (Seattle) Washington. (USA) I signed us up and we took language classes together. It was something of another bonding time with the two of us. Today, my Father is 93 and lives with my Mother in a nursing home four blocks from our home. I often visit him late at night, and we sometimes speak the old phrases. I feel it's VERY IMPORTANT for the 'language police' to realize that there are many ways to say "I LOVE YOU," and that some of the other ways have deeper meanings. English is just one language in a world of many languages. Today, english has became the international language of trade and business. I would rather tell my Father that I love him, in his own tongue, than a language which is synonymous with business and trade. I hope that all non-english speakers of the world fight hard to keep their own identities and cultures and heritage. KITTOS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 09:57 PM

I've always regretted Roger not teaching our kids French as they grew up. His dad came from an island in the St. Lawrence River and his mom was first generation French Canadian/American. He went to parochial school in NH, speaking French half the day, then English.

When I first met his mom, I told him I loved her accent, it was very genteel and soft, almost Queen's English in sound. He told me never to mention it to her, as she had worked very hard, all of her life to lose any accent she may have had and would be offended and hurt if she knew I thought she had an accent. I thought that was so sad.

Other languages are literally like music to my ears. I stop when I hear them and try to listen closely as I find them so interesting and delightful. I have always been grateful that I went to schools where it was a matter of course to take other language classes and I loved my Latin and German classes. I wished they'd offered more.

Some of you might find this site interesting, as I do: ENDANGERED LANGUAGE REPOSITORY

Interesting discussion. Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 10:45 PM

GOOD GRIEF KAT ... where do you come up with this stuff? This is SO PERTAINANT to this thread. My hat's off to you, and most of my hair too! CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 12:50 AM

HeyDeckman! Nice ta see ya!

Everything I needed to know, I learned at the Mudcat title of my next book.**BG** Someone here pointed us to the main site where that one is and I've used it a lot every since. Take a look on the left hand side, as you scroll down. Click on the listings for other language dictionaries and take yer pick, there's a gazillion there, some in languages I'd never heard of!

Thanks!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: GUEST,jayohjo in Russia
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 07:59 AM

Minority languages are often in danger of dying out due to dictatorship (acknowledged or not) by another language, eg Welsh & Gaelic in the UK, or (here) Languages in countries of the former USSR which were almost wiped out by Russian. Therefore even if only as a symbol, they should not be allowed to die out - most people in the west still think of Ukraine as sort of an extension of Russia, whcih horrifies Ukrainians. A separate language *proves* a separate identity to some extent. Just some thoughts, I'm far from home. And the more languages you can speak, the more people you can talk to! Hurray! jayohjo in Russia XXX

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Cobble
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 07:06 PM

Nice to hear the defence of minority languages, sorry if I was sharp about it but I feel strongly about defending heritage.

Cobble.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 07:37 PM

I heard an item on the radio (BBC4) about call centres in India. "Puja" had to change her name to "Natasha" and "Arja" to James for the purpose of answering calls in English from various countries!

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 07:49 PM

That's terrible!

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 08:03 PM

I was raised in an old Spanish-speaking area of the southwest. Many people ended up having a grasp of both English and Spanish. At the time, we had to take 2 years of Latin in school. This helped immeasurably with gaining a proper grasp on English. I now live in Canada, but the western part, where bilingualism has little part, because the small French enclaves (both Quebec and direct French immigrant) are unknown to the average English-speaking dominant group. The French that is taught in the public schools is soon lost by the majority English-speaking citizen. If the soup cans are on the shelf with the French label showing, we reverse the can to see what it is. I am wandering! Language is important in international business and science as well as culturally. I regret that my foreigh language capability is restricted to a reading knowledge of German scientific material. I wish I remembered Spanish. Every nation should have one major language in which business and government is conducted. This should not stop any group from promoting cultural use of any other language. Canada has a real problem. The Two Solitudes, French and English, still exist, in spite of Ottawa's efforts.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 11:53 PM

like it or not, standards are developing in every country, as well as internationally. Often, it is simply the dialect/language/pronunciation used on national television news. (Germany has 'Die Umgangsprache' and Gr. Britain has the BBC, and the USA has NBC...etc..)Sometimes it is still legislated, but in a generation or two, there WILL be just a few 'standards' for internet and commerce.(I'd make a bet...but...)[heck, I may even live to see it...20-30 years in internet time will see a LOT of changes]

I sincerely hope that languages which do not become the standard will continue to be spoken and preserved for their cultural value and historical importance...(of course, the many hundred languages of Papupa-N.Guinea and Indonesia etc., will naturally dwindle, but Welsh and Navaho and Icelandic...etc., with some care ought to be around a LONG time.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 01:36 AM

?u sisi?ab [O honourable ones]

Certainly here in the vicinity of the Whulge (x^welĉ) [aka Puget Sound, as the latecomers call it] English is an interloper (and a considerably more recent one than it is in Cymru). On the theory that when one moves to a new country one really ought to learn the language, I am working on learning Lushootseed 47 years after I was born of second-generation invaders in the land where Lushootseed ought by rights to be the majority tongue but is instead spoken fluently by only two or three hundred mostly older folk.

Incidentally, my main instructor in the language, who heads the language programs of the Muckleshoot Tribe, is not himself of Puget Sound ancestry, but rather is half Afghan, half Nakota (Sioux); he learned his first Lushootseed from his Puyallup stepfather.

lilend

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 01:49 AM

Also, I attended a fascinating lecture at the Kirkland Public Library a couple weeks ago about Brittany (including an introduction to the language), the churches and menhirs and locks and whatnot, it was tremendously engaging stuff. The language of the lecture was Esperanto; the lecturer was a French phone-company engineer who was in town for a symposium at Microsoft.

Only about 20 people attended, which is too bad as anyone who knows Esperanto would have found the talk worth the time.

Tonight even as I type, speaking of Esperanto, a venue called Consolidated Works here in Seattle is showing a movie in Esperanto, Incubus, starring William Shatner (his first feature film, I'm told, from pre-Star-Trek days). Most of the reviews I've seen say it's not a great film, so I decided not to waste seven bucks on it. But it is yet another example of the survival of Esperanto, another sort of minority language (and the one I identify most closely with).

Liland

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 03:08 AM

HERE'S WHERE I CATCH HELL FROM ALOT OF PEOPLE THAT I THINK VERY HIGHLY OF.

All my Grandparents learned English after they came here. So did he German, Dutch, Norwegan, Swede, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc etc etc. immigrants. I can see no reason to discourage immigrants from keeping their cultural heritage alive. However, I think that bi-lingual education is devisive. Perpetuating the practice of referring to themselves as "Italian-American" , "African=American" Russian-American" and all the other "hyphenated" nationalities keeps us apart.

No, don't discourage old world traditions, but, we and our Canadian fiends will ever reach our true potential until we get rid of the hyphens and start thinking of ourselves as "Just Canadians" and "Americans". TAKE NOTICE OF THE FACT that England did not attain its status as a "World class" nation until they quit the old practice of, "I'm Norman, you sre a lowly Saxon (or the reverse) and, started thinking of themselves as JUST ENGLISHMEN, nor did Ireland achieve it's staus until the people knocked off their hyphens.

One of the first things I insist of with my Karate Students (Traditional Shotokan, just promoted to roku-dan (6th Degree Black Belt)) is that they think of themselves as Americans and nothing else. Unless, of course ,they are foreign nationals, I have several African Nationals in my clsses, and, I make it plain that as soon as their parents (or themselves) attain American Citizenship they will have to start thinking of themselves as, "just Americans". My students who once thought of themselves as Puerto Rican or Guamanian, now think of themselves as "Americans", and, so do their class mates.
I feel very strongly on this matter, that anything else is counter productive to National Unity. Having signs, labels and directions in languages other than English tends to divide us into groups that could eventually become antagonists.
I recall, with much fondness and familial pride, the first time I introuced my new bride (Joyce, Kate and David's Mom) to one of the Sunday afternoon family gatherings where we were used to speaking "Calabrese" Italian, because my Grandmother, Sophia Puzelli, understood and spoke very little English, that after the first exchange in Italian, My Grandmother said, in Italian, "We must speak in English because Roberta (my wife) understood nothing in italian." "Anything else would be very rude" . She went on to say, "Besides, we are All Americans here and we must make Joseph's wife feel welcome in our family gatherings". These were the last words spoken in other than English, except for translations of what someone else had said and Grandma didn't quite understand, or, what Roberta had said. I can't begin to describe how proud I was of my family as they all agreed, whole heartedly, with what my Grandmother had asked of them. "Bobbie" fell in love with my family, as they did with her, at their very first meeting because of this,

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 03:30 AM

Well and good, CRANKY YANKEE, but surely you realize that your idol National Unity is counter-productive to Global Unity, and that once your students have achieved whatever the ultimate goal is they need to stop thinking of themselves as anything but Earthlings, or Milky Way Dwellers, or whatever.

Liland
who thinks you and your wife should both have learned Mohican or whatever ... better late than never

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 04:01 AM

(continued from preceding)

My first Wife, Roberta Barber, was descended from English, Irish, French Scottish and Naragansett Indian. Add to that Russian-Jewish and Italian catholic(my heritage) and you come up with three kids (ages 49 44 and 40) who have trouble thinking o themselves as anything, BUT, Americans. Well. maybe Yankees, also. But, that too (Yankee, Dam-Yankee and Rebels) has to stop.

For my foreign national Friends here in the Mudcat, YANKEES only live in "New England", a region containing the States of Connecticut, Rhode Island, Masachusetts. New Hampshire.and Vermont. "Dam-Yankees" is what the citizens of what once was "The Confederate States of America". during our "Civil War" call anyone from other than the old "Confederacy". However, real YANKEES don't object if someone from another nation refer to all Americans as, "Yanks". I'm sure that someone from "Bury Saint Edmond or "Ipswich" wouldn't object if an American, Canadian or Aussie called all Englishmen, "Anglo-Saxons". Which a lot of us do. Britt's would probably excuse it with an "Oh! Well, they don't know any better" as we do with you lot calling us all Yanks.. But, amongst ourselves, THIS SHIT HAS GOT TO STOP

And, this whole planet will never reach it's full potential until we're all Human Beings or People, and we have an Earth-wide language. (which, from my point of view ) appears to be "English".

Hey, The European common Market, it's trend of finlly having a common currency and the cross chnnel tunnel sre mighty large steps in the right direction. LETS HAVE THREE CHEERS FOR OUR EURO-FRIENDS WHO ARE ACCOMPLISHING MORE FOR WORLD UNITY AND AN END TO VIOLENCE AS A NATIONAL POLICY, THAN HAS BEEN ACCOMPLISHED IN ALL OF OUR HISTORY, HIP-HIP HOORAY, HIP-HIP HOORAY, HIP-HIP HOORAY.

God Bless all of you (and us too)

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: lady penelope
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 10:13 AM

I've always looked at the ability to speak more than one language to be far more than an identity issue. Being able to think and speak in more than one language has a profound affect on how we think!

I am somewhat biased about this as in england, learning other languages was not considered of any great importance until very recently. Now we seemed to have lost the basic equipment/resourses and most importantly, the attitude to do so.

Learning someone elses language gives you a slightly different perspective of the world. I'm not talking life changing insights necessarily, but little things like finding out about welsh snow flakes and turkish siblings. These things point out that the whole world doesn't think the same way as you.

I live in London and I'm quite often ashamed that I cannot understand basic questions from tourists. Now I'm not saying I should be able to speak all the languages I encounter ( I'd need a babel fish) but even knowing either just french or german or italian can make a big difference.

The funding of language courses is another matter. Whilst I think that every one should be entitled to learn their own 'native' language, I don't think it should necessarily be the government's responsibility to fund it.

In britain there is quite a culture of evening classes, though subsidised ( in most cases, not all ) those who attend are expected to pay for their course. Looking through the lists of courses available, there are a huge amount of languages in london alone! In the end it comes down to how much you want to learn a language.

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: lady penelope
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 10:14 AM

I've always looked at the ability to speak more than one language to be far more than an identity issue. Being able to think and speak in more than one language has a profound affect on how we think!

I am somewhat biased about this as in england, learning other languages was not considered of any great importance until very recently. Now we seemed to have lost the basic equipment/resourses and most importantly, the attitude to do so.

Learning someone elses language gives you a slightly different perspective of the world. I'm not talking life changing insights necessarily, but little things like finding out about welsh snow flakes and turkish siblings. These things point out that the whole world doesn't think the same way as you.

I live in London and I'm quite often ashamed that I cannot understand basic questions from tourists. Now I'm not saying I should be able to speak all the languages I encounter ( I'd need a babel fish) but even knowing either just french or german or italian can make a big difference.

The funding of language courses is another matter. Whilst I think that every one should be entitled to learn their own 'native' language, I don't think it should necessarily be the government's responsibility to fund it.

In britain there is quite a culture of evening classes, though subsidised ( in most cases, not all ) those who attend are expected to pay for their course. Looking through the lists of courses available, there are a huge amount of languages in london alone! In the end it comes down to how much you want to learn a language.

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Rollo
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 03:44 PM

It is very important to recognice that the use of one language or the other has an enormous influence on your view of the world. The eskimo talking about snow to a hawaian mentioned above is a spectacular example, but there are many, many, more subtle ones. There are dying languages that use a hexagesimal instead of decimal system of numbers. Other languages (for example amerindian ones) have a lot of different time, or even only one. We had enormous discussions here in germany about the use of masculine and feminine forms. While in english you say "the worker" to describe a worker independent of the sex, in germany we have the form "der Arbeiter" or die Arbeiterin" depending of the person being masculine or feminine. Women`s Right activists were very angry about the form describing an indistinct person being the masculine one. They argued women were reduced to second choice by language. And they are right.

But the biggest idea transported by language is the own identity. This is the reason why so much countries tried and still try to supress minority languages. I am a great supporter of the idea that national states are no longer modern. But forcing unity is the wrong way. The Danish for example are fearing to lose their cultural identity in a united europe. They are absolutely right. Denmarks economy is completely dependent on german import. Only by giving guaranties to protect small nations from being assimilated by the bigger neighbor will they have a chance to have economical success in the future. But this includes language, too. But when a language dwindles into nothingness without being supressed, this is a sign for the completed integration. It is sad, but not neccessary bad. If you feel no longer "minoritan" but "majoritan" in the first place, there is no necessarity to speak "native" at home. Me being german in the first place, lower saxon in the second, I like our native "Niederdeutsch" very much. But there is no reason for me to speak it daily. I am not forced to preserve it in order to preserve my kinfolk`s identity.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 01:30 PM

from today's newspaper:

the Worldwatch institute fears that until the end of the 21st century half of the about 6800 living languages will be extinct. 83 year old Mary Smith from Anchorage (in Canada, my newspaper says) is for example the only speaker of Eyak and there are only 6 speakers of Arikapu left. The country with most different languages is Papua Newguinea, they count 832. More than half of all languages come from only 8 countries. Unesco guesses that there are at least 100,000 speakers necessary for a language to survive.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: gnu
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 01:59 PM

McGrath..... 27 words for snow a myth ? Probably, because there are over fifty. They are not just words which equate to "snow". They are words which describe types of snow, types of formations of snow, types of snowstorms...