BS: Minority languages

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 01:49 AM

Also, I attended a fascinating lecture at the Kirkland Public Library a couple weeks ago about Brittany (including an introduction to the language), the churches and menhirs and locks and whatnot, it was tremendously engaging stuff. The language of the lecture was Esperanto; the lecturer was a French phone-company engineer who was in town for a symposium at Microsoft.

Only about 20 people attended, which is too bad as anyone who knows Esperanto would have found the talk worth the time.

Tonight even as I type, speaking of Esperanto, a venue called Consolidated Works here in Seattle is showing a movie in Esperanto, Incubus, starring William Shatner (his first feature film, I'm told, from pre-Star-Trek days). Most of the reviews I've seen say it's not a great film, so I decided not to waste seven bucks on it. But it is yet another example of the survival of Esperanto, another sort of minority language (and the one I identify most closely with).

Liland

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 03:08 AM

HERE'S WHERE I CATCH HELL FROM ALOT OF PEOPLE THAT I THINK VERY HIGHLY OF.

All my Grandparents learned English after they came here. So did he German, Dutch, Norwegan, Swede, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc etc etc. immigrants. I can see no reason to discourage immigrants from keeping their cultural heritage alive. However, I think that bi-lingual education is devisive. Perpetuating the practice of referring to themselves as "Italian-American" , "African=American" Russian-American" and all the other "hyphenated" nationalities keeps us apart.

No, don't discourage old world traditions, but, we and our Canadian fiends will ever reach our true potential until we get rid of the hyphens and start thinking of ourselves as "Just Canadians" and "Americans". TAKE NOTICE OF THE FACT that England did not attain its status as a "World class" nation until they quit the old practice of, "I'm Norman, you sre a lowly Saxon (or the reverse) and, started thinking of themselves as JUST ENGLISHMEN, nor did Ireland achieve it's staus until the people knocked off their hyphens.

One of the first things I insist of with my Karate Students (Traditional Shotokan, just promoted to roku-dan (6th Degree Black Belt)) is that they think of themselves as Americans and nothing else. Unless, of course ,they are foreign nationals, I have several African Nationals in my clsses, and, I make it plain that as soon as their parents (or themselves) attain American Citizenship they will have to start thinking of themselves as, "just Americans". My students who once thought of themselves as Puerto Rican or Guamanian, now think of themselves as "Americans", and, so do their class mates.
I feel very strongly on this matter, that anything else is counter productive to National Unity. Having signs, labels and directions in languages other than English tends to divide us into groups that could eventually become antagonists.
I recall, with much fondness and familial pride, the first time I introuced my new bride (Joyce, Kate and David's Mom) to one of the Sunday afternoon family gatherings where we were used to speaking "Calabrese" Italian, because my Grandmother, Sophia Puzelli, understood and spoke very little English, that after the first exchange in Italian, My Grandmother said, in Italian, "We must speak in English because Roberta (my wife) understood nothing in italian." "Anything else would be very rude" . She went on to say, "Besides, we are All Americans here and we must make Joseph's wife feel welcome in our family gatherings". These were the last words spoken in other than English, except for translations of what someone else had said and Grandma didn't quite understand, or, what Roberta had said. I can't begin to describe how proud I was of my family as they all agreed, whole heartedly, with what my Grandmother had asked of them. "Bobbie" fell in love with my family, as they did with her, at their very first meeting because of this,

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 03:30 AM

Well and good, CRANKY YANKEE, but surely you realize that your idol National Unity is counter-productive to Global Unity, and that once your students have achieved whatever the ultimate goal is they need to stop thinking of themselves as anything but Earthlings, or Milky Way Dwellers, or whatever.

Liland
who thinks you and your wife should both have learned Mohican or whatever ... better late than never

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 04:01 AM

(continued from preceding)

My first Wife, Roberta Barber, was descended from English, Irish, French Scottish and Naragansett Indian. Add to that Russian-Jewish and Italian catholic(my heritage) and you come up with three kids (ages 49 44 and 40) who have trouble thinking o themselves as anything, BUT, Americans. Well. maybe Yankees, also. But, that too (Yankee, Dam-Yankee and Rebels) has to stop.

For my foreign national Friends here in the Mudcat, YANKEES only live in "New England", a region containing the States of Connecticut, Rhode Island, Masachusetts. New Hampshire.and Vermont. "Dam-Yankees" is what the citizens of what once was "The Confederate States of America". during our "Civil War" call anyone from other than the old "Confederacy". However, real YANKEES don't object if someone from another nation refer to all Americans as, "Yanks". I'm sure that someone from "Bury Saint Edmond or "Ipswich" wouldn't object if an American, Canadian or Aussie called all Englishmen, "Anglo-Saxons". Which a lot of us do. Britt's would probably excuse it with an "Oh! Well, they don't know any better" as we do with you lot calling us all Yanks.. But, amongst ourselves, THIS SHIT HAS GOT TO STOP

And, this whole planet will never reach it's full potential until we're all Human Beings or People, and we have an Earth-wide language. (which, from my point of view ) appears to be "English".

Hey, The European common Market, it's trend of finlly having a common currency and the cross chnnel tunnel sre mighty large steps in the right direction. LETS HAVE THREE CHEERS FOR OUR EURO-FRIENDS WHO ARE ACCOMPLISHING MORE FOR WORLD UNITY AND AN END TO VIOLENCE AS A NATIONAL POLICY, THAN HAS BEEN ACCOMPLISHED IN ALL OF OUR HISTORY, HIP-HIP HOORAY, HIP-HIP HOORAY, HIP-HIP HOORAY.

God Bless all of you (and us too)

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: lady penelope
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 10:13 AM

I've always looked at the ability to speak more than one language to be far more than an identity issue. Being able to think and speak in more than one language has a profound affect on how we think!

I am somewhat biased about this as in england, learning other languages was not considered of any great importance until very recently. Now we seemed to have lost the basic equipment/resourses and most importantly, the attitude to do so.

Learning someone elses language gives you a slightly different perspective of the world. I'm not talking life changing insights necessarily, but little things like finding out about welsh snow flakes and turkish siblings. These things point out that the whole world doesn't think the same way as you.

I live in London and I'm quite often ashamed that I cannot understand basic questions from tourists. Now I'm not saying I should be able to speak all the languages I encounter ( I'd need a babel fish) but even knowing either just french or german or italian can make a big difference.

The funding of language courses is another matter. Whilst I think that every one should be entitled to learn their own 'native' language, I don't think it should necessarily be the government's responsibility to fund it.

In britain there is quite a culture of evening classes, though subsidised ( in most cases, not all ) those who attend are expected to pay for their course. Looking through the lists of courses available, there are a huge amount of languages in london alone! In the end it comes down to how much you want to learn a language.

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: lady penelope
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 10:14 AM

I've always looked at the ability to speak more than one language to be far more than an identity issue. Being able to think and speak in more than one language has a profound affect on how we think!

I am somewhat biased about this as in england, learning other languages was not considered of any great importance until very recently. Now we seemed to have lost the basic equipment/resourses and most importantly, the attitude to do so.

Learning someone elses language gives you a slightly different perspective of the world. I'm not talking life changing insights necessarily, but little things like finding out about welsh snow flakes and turkish siblings. These things point out that the whole world doesn't think the same way as you.

I live in London and I'm quite often ashamed that I cannot understand basic questions from tourists. Now I'm not saying I should be able to speak all the languages I encounter ( I'd need a babel fish) but even knowing either just french or german or italian can make a big difference.

The funding of language courses is another matter. Whilst I think that every one should be entitled to learn their own 'native' language, I don't think it should necessarily be the government's responsibility to fund it.

In britain there is quite a culture of evening classes, though subsidised ( in most cases, not all ) those who attend are expected to pay for their course. Looking through the lists of courses available, there are a huge amount of languages in london alone! In the end it comes down to how much you want to learn a language.

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Rollo
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 03:44 PM

It is very important to recognice that the use of one language or the other has an enormous influence on your view of the world. The eskimo talking about snow to a hawaian mentioned above is a spectacular example, but there are many, many, more subtle ones. There are dying languages that use a hexagesimal instead of decimal system of numbers. Other languages (for example amerindian ones) have a lot of different time, or even only one. We had enormous discussions here in germany about the use of masculine and feminine forms. While in english you say "the worker" to describe a worker independent of the sex, in germany we have the form "der Arbeiter" or die Arbeiterin" depending of the person being masculine or feminine. Women`s Right activists were very angry about the form describing an indistinct person being the masculine one. They argued women were reduced to second choice by language. And they are right.

But the biggest idea transported by language is the own identity. This is the reason why so much countries tried and still try to supress minority languages. I am a great supporter of the idea that national states are no longer modern. But forcing unity is the wrong way. The Danish for example are fearing to lose their cultural identity in a united europe. They are absolutely right. Denmarks economy is completely dependent on german import. Only by giving guaranties to protect small nations from being assimilated by the bigger neighbor will they have a chance to have economical success in the future. But this includes language, too. But when a language dwindles into nothingness without being supressed, this is a sign for the completed integration. It is sad, but not neccessary bad. If you feel no longer "minoritan" but "majoritan" in the first place, there is no necessarity to speak "native" at home. Me being german in the first place, lower saxon in the second, I like our native "Niederdeutsch" very much. But there is no reason for me to speak it daily. I am not forced to preserve it in order to preserve my kinfolk`s identity.

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 01:30 PM

from today's newspaper:

the Worldwatch institute fears that until the end of the 21st century half of the about 6800 living languages will be extinct. 83 year old Mary Smith from Anchorage (in Canada, my newspaper says) is for example the only speaker of Eyak and there are only 6 speakers of Arikapu left. The country with most different languages is Papua Newguinea, they count 832. More than half of all languages come from only 8 countries. Unesco guesses that there are at least 100,000 speakers necessary for a language to survive.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Minority languages
From: gnu
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 01:59 PM

McGrath..... 27 words for snow a myth ? Probably, because there are over fifty. They are not just words which equate to "snow". They are words which describe types of snow, types of formations of snow, types of snowstorms...