BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'

Subject: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 02:42 PM

Perhaps the US should not inspire people to do so. The "anti anti anti ballastic missile defense" sounds like the same ole cold war escalation to me. OF course they miss their target but thats why they call them missiles. The US did not sign the last bio warfare treaty either so it should be clear that bio-war labs are busy at work. I think Bush has a screw loose and it is causing his sabre to rattle. Oh Yeah its all about money - until something screws up big time and then it is all about survival.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Justa Picker
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 02:53 PM

Well it's a matter of when and not if.
When that nuke delivered from [name your terrorist group] strikes a major U.S. city, don't say GW didn't warn you. On this missle defense thing, I'm in agreement. Probably one of the only things I agree with GW on.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 02:56 PM

sorry about the double post,it was taking over a minute to contact so pressed stop and tried again. While I'm here...

Anyone notice the schizophrenic values we have : such as if a 14 year old from Kansas did to a dog what adults at slaughter houses are paid to do to cows , people would want him tried as an adult. In Korea people wouldn't call it a crime , they would call it " its whats for dinner ".

Bill gets a hummer which he says he was sorry (right) but when a Republican gets one it is youthful indescretion (at age 41) .

Save the snail darter but sacrifice the humans near chemical plants.

any others?

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Amergin
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 02:58 PM

yawn....

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Mountain Dog
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 03:01 PM

Spaw, this thread's title gives me an idea for another bum-blown ocarina - sort of a combination of the little pisser that so offended Cleigh and the little pisser in the White House. And just to be safe, you'd want to put him down a rung from Cleigh...and downstream from the leaky Belgian laddie! Just a twisted thought...

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 03:03 PM

Justa Picker , small terrorist groups would deliver their prize by suitcase. Your anti missle isn't much help. Large nations would defeat the anti missle defense with multiple launches to assure delivery. Of course Tesla said he had the defense shield answer 60 years ago.

when not if?... Einstein thought so 57 years ago - and he was right.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Justa Picker
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 03:11 PM

Better to have some form of deterent than none at all.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 03:12 PM

The problem with Star Wars defense systems and all their permutations:-- how can we be so sure that there is not a hydrogen bomb already stashed in every major city (and a few minor ones) in the world, just ready for whoever to poke a button on his control panel? If I were a maniac with the means (and I'm afraid there are some), that's the way I would do it.

Of course defense spending provides jobs. But if we need to find things to do, I can think of a few other things that could use a little attention. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 03:21 PM

Don Firth , Your idea is applicable without even having to locate them near cities. As per Dr. Strangelove " Gentlemen , there is no fighting here ! This is the war room ."

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 03:27 PM

So is biowarfare better for the economy ? With AIDs the count is at 22 million and rising. Africa sounds defeated by media reports. WWII had what (100 million casualties???)

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 04:54 PM

How missiles are supposed to stop people bringing a bomb in in a lorry or a boat is the puzzle.

But then stopping the bombs isn't what it's about - it's really all about putting fat contracts into the hands of the people who bankrolled the White House Resident.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 05:28 PM

As a US senitor once said, all they would have to do, to deliever a nuke device into the US would be to hide it in a bale of marajuana. Remember Eisenhower's warning, beware the military industrial complex. PS If bush is spend BILLIONs on this scam, and cutting taxes, my fellow AMerican's, where do you think the money is coming out of... you'll find out when you go to, try to go to a hospitial... Larry

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 05:44 PM

It's deja vu all over again. Reagan also promised to cut taxes and raise spending. And drove us further into debt than we'd ever been before.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 06:43 PM

Some of the scientists who worked on "Star Wars" told the story on tv that it does not work, because it can not work. It's a multi million dollar boondogle that will only make other countries nervous. Hell, even Canada does not fully trust us! why should Russia? Even the most recent tests have been failures. If we would mind our own business, we would not need such expensive weapons, but, of course, it is not about protection, it is about make work, the worst kind of corporate welfare.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: RichM
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 06:55 PM

Practically speaking, JustaPicker is right: " it's better to have some form of deterrent than none at all.." The Americans' deterrent in this case is the *perception* that starwars will work. It won't.

As a Canadian, I can understand why the American Empire is nervous. What, you didn't think you are an empire? Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto Rico,Panama, Pacific Territories, a naval base in Cuba against the will of it's people, interventions in the Caribbean, Kuwait, and the Far East, Military bases in Korea, DEA interventions in Columbia...the list goes on and on. When I look at the new American Embassy in Ottawa,I see the future, and it's grim. The Embassy looks like a great grey battleship, surrounded by steel fences, and concrete emplacements. Makes me nervous every time I drive by. The only hope I see is in people like YOU americans in mudcat. Hopefully, you will prevail. Cooperation is better than competition and domination!

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 07:12 PM

Justapicker, just keep backing Bush and the lunatic "total defence" fiction, and you'll soon have so many enemies you'll be living in a bunker. (And you still won't be safe.) Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: DougR
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 07:21 PM

Sigh.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: GUEST,aesop
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 08:09 PM

The Cold War is over. Why are they still spending our tax money on more weapons, and on an anti-missle defense which will never work? When it comes to education, or health care, or any social program that helps people live decent lives, the government always cries poverty. Even when there is a surplus, the first thing they want to spend it on is weapons. Bush even wants to junk the few peace treaties we have, and he doesn't even consider diplomacy. It's insanity, and it hasn't changed since the 1950s. "Oh when will they ever learn?"

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 08:18 PM

can YOU say "Maginot Line" ?

umpty-leven billion$$$$ later and some guy will just set a suitcase by a gate

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: thosp
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 08:24 PM

i certainly agree with someone above -- "there are better things to do with the money" if you don't believe it try this blueclicketything

peace (Y) thosp

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 09:33 PM

Recall the other great Peter Sellars film - "The Mouse that Roared".

Rana

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: toadfrog
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 10:32 PM

Gosh! I think I detest that program as much as anybody else, maybe even more, but if Justa picker thinks its right, he should be allowed to say so, without being threatened. I hope the bit about not being safe "even in a bunker" is meant to be jocular. But the threat about "having so many enemies . . ." (ostracism) is quite nasty enough. That is unnecessary.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Peg
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 11:47 PM

no one has brought up Bush's desire to get the old nuclear plants up and working again...there is every indication that, since the anti-missile defense system will utilize nuclear weapon technology, the push to "get our energy infrastructure in line with the times" is actually a way of putting MORE money into Star Wars...

It won't work, ever. It is a fantasy that Uncle Ronnie got all his starry-eyed fans to believe in. And blowing nuclear bombs up ('scuse me, TESTING them) in space is every bit as stupid as exploding them in the ocean or the desert...

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 01:22 AM

I had no idea so many mudcatters were experts in the field of missle defense. I'm a bit awed since I would be among the first to admit I don't know a damn thing about them. I don't know how we got a man on the moon either but fifty years ago the man on the street would have thought it never could be done.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 06:36 AM

to quote the Doctor in Jurrasic Park, "You were so busy asking yourself if it could be done, you didnt't stop to ask if it SHOULD it be done.

I'm not an expert on star wars, but, I do listen to the scientist who ARE! They say it wont work, because, it cant work. Now, Doug, should I argue with them? Do they know more about it than I do? Do they know more about it than that smirking doofus in the White House? Of course they do! It can only set off another arms race where we will be spending trillions on missles that wont work while our senior citizens go hungry and cold because they cant pay for medications and heat. And, how do WE get to be those seniors? just keep breathing, thats all you have to do. It is downright criminal the way those drug companies force their profits out of reason. I thank the creator that we have a woman here in Maine who fought for lower drug prices at the state level, and now she is going to run against Senator Susan Collins for the US Senate. I'm not only going to vote for her, but, also do everything,( legal) to get her elected. Her name is Chellie Pingree for you other Maniacs. Actually, our two republican senators havn,t been too bad in Washington, but, they help keep right wing wackos like Jesse Helms, Strom Thurmond and Trent Lott in power. And, when they voted to confirm Ashcroft, I told them thay did not represent me, and, that I was going to do everything I could to get them defeated. The ball is rolling.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 08:58 AM

Seems like we've got a whole host of issues bundled together here. To get back to missile defense, communicating this objective in a balanced and effective manner is a real challenge, which GWB has not entirely mastered (Reagan, the "Great Communicator," had trouble with this as well). But even though I'm not a big fan of Bush, I do agree with him that we should be putting some effort into exploring the viability of defensive systems, rather than just relying on our good old "mutual assured destruction" strategy. No, missile defense isn't the answer to all potential dangers, but that doesn't mean there's no value in it. I think our government should be working towards this objective.

We should remember that things like this never work at the conceptual and early design stages, so the fact that we don't have a pre-packaged system ready to go does not mean there's no hope for it. Unfortunately, politics requires people to express complete confidence in their ideas, otherwise they are at a rhetorical disadvantage with regard to the opposing politicians expressing complete confidence in THEIR ideas. We're probably stuck with adversarial politics to a large extent, but let's not kid ourselves that this is the best way to get to the truth of matters like this.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 09:04 AM

How many years and billions does it take to admit that it is physically impossible? They didn't just start on this white elephant.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: GUEST,Den at work
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 09:42 AM

A musical interlude:
HOW LONG (by Jackson Browne)

When you look into a child's face
When you look into a child's face
And you're seeing the human race
And the endless possibilities there
Where so much can come true
And you think of the beautiful things
A child can do

How long -- would the child survive
How long -- if it was up to you

When you think about the money spent
On defense by a government
And the weapons of destruction we've built
We're so sure that we need
And you think of the millions and millions
That money could feed

How long -- can you hear someone crying
How long -- can you hear someone dying
Before you ask yourself why?
And how long will we hear people speaking
About missiles for peace
And just let it go by
How long will they tell us these weapons
Are keeping us free
That's a lie

If you saw it from a satellite
With its green and its blue and white
The beauty of the curve of the earth
And its oceans below
You might think it was paradise
If you didn't know
You might think that it's turning
But it's turning so slow

How long -- can you hear someone crying
How long -- can you hear someone dying
Before you ask yourself why?
And how long will it be 'till we've turned
To the tasks and the skills
That we'll have to have learned
If we're going to find our place in the future
And have something to offer
Where this planet's concerned
How long?
And you're seeing the human race
And the endless possibilities there
Where so much can come true
And you think of the beautiful things
A child can do

How long -- would the child survive
How long -- if it was up to you

When you think about the money spent
On defense by a government
And the weapons of destruction we've built
We're so sure that we need
And you think of the millions and millions
That money could feed

How long -- can you hear someone crying
How long -- can you hear someone dying
Before you ask yourself why?
And how long will we hear people speaking
About missiles for peace
And just let it go by
How long will they tell us these weapons
Are keeping us free
That's a lie

If you saw it from a satellite
With its green and its blue and white
The beauty of the curve of the earth
And its oceans below
You might think it was paradise
If you didn't know
You might think that it's turning
But it's turning so slow

How long -- can you hear someone crying
How long -- can you hear someone dying
Before you ask yourself why?
And how long will it be 'till we've turned
To the tasks and the skills
That we'll have to have learned
If we're going to find our place in the future
And have something to offer
Where this planet's concerned
How long?

Den

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: English Jon
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 09:52 AM

If I was a terrorist, I'd poison the water supply.

If I was a Warring Tyrant, I'd cut all trade relations, and poison the water supply.

If I was an assasin, I'd poison my targets beer.

I can't think of any reason why I'd need a nuclear device to do this.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: LR Mole
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 09:52 AM

It wouldn't be quite so bad if we were only letting the gazillionaires play with toys. But, as the sign says, the toys are us.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Fortunato
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 10:22 AM

I am an American. I did not vote for George W. Bush. If there was a referendum, I would not vote to fund a missile defense system. Nor am I an expert on anything except my life (quiet, you!)

My message is this, to you all of you in Canada and around the world: George W. Bush's policies are not mine. My policy on nuclear defense and proliferation is this: total world wide disarmament. Nothing else is acceptable.
Chance Shiver

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Gervase
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 11:24 AM

Well said, Chance!

I'd have more faith in the NMD if other so-called defence systems actually worked. Remember the Patriot missiles in the Gulf War - the ones that stopped Israel from being flattened? They were complete pants.
Not one succeeded in doing what it was supposed to do - which was intercept and destroy incoming ordnance before it posed a threat to Israel.
Thankfully Saddam's Scuds were even less reliable.

Now where did I put that old duffel bag and that lump of U235?

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 11:53 AM

English Jon: think you could sell that message to Saddam?

Last words of those who block continued research and development: "Oh shit."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 12:00 PM

Such heavy chatter for a Friday! My opinion, worth just as much ae the rest expressed here, Bush better wake up and smell the coffee. If he does ANYTHING unilatterally, he'll not only piss off the bad guys, but our allies as well. I don't relish having Canada and Germany leaving the fold. Any idiot would know that if a system such as ABM is scrapped, you'd better damn well have another plan up and running before you do. The stakes are too damn high. Why is Europe so unreceptive to giving up ABM without an alternative, WORKABLE, accepable plan? Simple, they've had two major wars fought on their soil in recent time and are still having major sqwabbles due to the Soviet break up. I think European countries just MIGHT have a little knowledge about so called defense sytems.

I agree with the bomb-in-a bag/truck angle as well. Oklahoma City/Nairobi/ Beirut AGAIN anyone? Lets review this AGAIN for those who didn't get the first time. Bomb makers + bomb + truck/bag = BOOOOOM!

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 12:05 PM

Call it coincidence, but...

1) The spy plane incident with China happened - just about the time Bush was pushing to sell some high-tech gear to Taiwan (considered a rogue province by the Chinese).

2) Cheney holds a press conference and warns that the rolling blackouts California experiences could roll across the rest of the U.S. this summer - about the time Bush is trying to convince everybody that plundering the Alaskan wilderness for oil is a good idea.

3) A study of terrorist countries undertaken by some U.S. government bureaucracy wraps up with a list of those with the most enmity towards the United States - about the time Bush is trying to revive the Star Wars initiative.

The juxtaposition of stories in the media can have a powerful influence over popular opinion. And the media can also be thought of as another manipulative tool for fashioning straw men to be knoced down at a profitably opportune time.

When a man (Eisenhower), made in the military industrial complex's image, turns around and says 'beware' of the same, something must be rotten.... And when two oil men say we should drill in Alaska, it's about as credible as tobacco execs saying smoking doesn't cause cancer. Yeah, right.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 12:30 PM

Amen to that. It just curiouser and curouser.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 12:58 PM

That Chinese pilots real name was Won Dum Phuk

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 01:19 PM

Let's remember a couple of things. First, worldwide disarmament is a lovely idea, provided you get the whole world to go along with it. I don't know how to do that, but I would be interested in hearing a credible plan. Anybody got one? [Emphasis on "credible," please.]

Jackson Browne is a good songwriter, but not much of a policy maker. The song quoted above is a lot like "Blowin' In The Wind" -- it asks a lot of questions, but doesn't provide much of an action plan.

Also, please remember that the existing ABM treaty explicitly prohibits research and development of defensive systems such as those envisioned by Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II (all four Presidents voiced support for continued R & D on missile defense, to varying degrees). If it only prohibited deployment, we could just decide to cross the deployment bridge when we had the systems perfected. Bush says, with some justification, that existing arms control agreements are based on outdated strategic thinking. He wants to modernize our thinking on this so that we don't continue to "fight the last war," as military strategists are prone to do.

Bush may not be the most effective messenger, but there is some value in what he is saying, if you can cut through the rhetoric on both sides of this issue. Unfortunately, the battle lines were drawn on "Star Wars" as soon as Reagan mentioned it in the mid-1980's. All the shouting and sloganeering has tended to inhibit reasoned consideration of this, but the world will not stand still, and we will continue to avoid rational discussion of our options at our own peril.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 01:28 PM

And, I might remind my friends who are skeptical that President Bush has emphasised that such an anit-ballistic program is not a unilateral one. Allies of the U. S. would be afforded the same protection as the U. S.

I just heard Daniel Schorr on PBS (who hardly could be described as a conservative) say that we don't know that such a system could not be successful.

I would guess that for every scientiest who says it cannot be done, one could be found who thinks it can.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 01:31 PM

If we could believe in the possibility of developing reliable anti-missile defenses with existing or forseeable technologies, and could believe that they would receive universal deployment, so that NO country would be subject to bombs-from-above, then I might be willing to go along, and maybe our allies would, also. But I don't see it, and neither do they.

alex

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 04:20 PM

Daniel Shorr should stick to the news business. The scientists who actually worked on the project say IT CANT BE DONE!! That the technology does not exist, and, may never exist. Besides, what happens if one of our allies becomes an ememy? Do we reposess his umbrella? How? Why dont we just start acting like Canada. Does anyone want to bomb Canada? Enemies are expensive, and God knows we have made many of them.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 05:11 PM

Oh Ye of little faith.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 05:12 PM

In technological progress? Please.

"I've gone off the idea of progress. It's overrated."
---Arthur Dent

Alex

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 05:51 PM

well As I see it the star wars defense might work but what about other problems that might rise from it as it mistake a space shuttle for a missle and blows it to hell and back. I feel it will ultimately be a waste of money because there are other ways of destroying things and it has been proven that any idiot with a little know how can blow up a building such as terroists do.I feel we should use the money for our education systems our Social Security and disability programs. I could of course go on anout how my government is frecked up and before any says I voted for them I have found most the time that doesn't matter because all poloticians lie and money does corrupt

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 06:50 PM

Hmm. Guest Joe, you sound a bit disillusioned with government.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: toadfrog
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 10:37 PM

Daniel Schorr is one of my heros. He said, we don't know (for certain) that it won't work. I respectfully submit, before we spend that kind of money and make all those foreign enemies, we should be very, very certain that it does work. And no matter who you believe, we aren't certain of that. The possible advantage of SDI is extremely speculative.

The down side, especially taken together with all those tax cuts, is that the scheme could bankrupt the United States government. But if you hate the government, maybe that isn't a down side. And that angle namely, the link to a real right-wing-crazy, hate-the-government standpoint, scares hell out of me.

And another thing that scares hell out of me, is the point George Soros raised the other day on NPR, which is that to justify this project Bush may have to bring back the cold war - make us some more enemies, create some threats. For the moment, I'll give Bush the benefit of the doubt on that, but . . .

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 11:44 PM

Toadfrog: I don't want to disillusion you about Daniel Shorr, he did say what I said he said, but he expressed doubt that it would work. That make you feel better?

The cost of the anti-missle program would cost nothing in comparison to the cost of fighting another world war. In dollars, and in lives.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: toadfrog
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 12:08 AM

Doug, I'm sure you correctly cited Shorr. I'm also sure that building the anti missile shield would be cheaper that fighting another world war. Surely you are correct in saying that.

On the other hand, I don't see any great likelihood of our getting into another world war, things being as they are, unless, in order to justify the SDI program (which serves a number of domestic purposes having nothing whatsoever to do with defense) our leaders feel compelled to alienate a lot of foreign powers and for that reason get us into a world war. That was George Soros's point. I'm not sure I think George Bush is capable of that.

There is not the slightest doubt in my mind but what if the Right Wing of his party had their way, they would quickly make the United States such an unbearable neighbor that everyone would be forced to wage war against us, to preserve civilization.

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From:
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 12:15 AM

In WWII they certainly had a desire to torpedo some Canadian harbors..St. John's and Halifax. mg

Subject: RE: BS:Bush fears US will get 'blowed up'
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 12:36 AM

Kendall mentioned the solution to all of this debate but you have to read it correctly to realize that he has the answer. The solution is in your local vote, not some hopefully candidate on a national level. Support the person who carries your message and support them right into office. If enough local votes for congessmen can get people of a similar mind inyto office then amazing things can be done. But they have to begin on local level first.

We also have to remember that solutions never occur overnight. Problems seem to somehow but the solutions never do. I remebre when Jimmy Carter wanted to promote alternative fuels during the great fuel shortage of the 80's and the Republicans said it was a waste of time, it would take twentu years of work and research before any meaningful and affordable fuels could be developed. So nothing was done and twenty years later the shoe is on the other foot. And we are still twenty years away from fuels that are affordable. ( Iknow about bio fuels and sunflower diesel but there is other parts of the infrastructure needed to make any great changes possible.)

And I too believe that the next nuke will either be power company screw up or it will be delivered by FedEx and come COD.

Don