BS: Do we still need unions?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we still need unions?
From: wdyat12
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 10:48 AM

Well said psycodelek.

wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Do we still need unions?
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:24 AM

Kendall, you know I agree with you on 75 to 90% of everything you say of a political nature; all that's really necessary any more is to tease you for your misspellings.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Do we still need unions?
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 01:25 PM

Go for it MT! but, watch your ass, this means WAR LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Do we still need unions?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 02:16 PM

I was talking to a young friend at the weekend who is working at a mind-numbing job for our (recently-established) minimum wage. In order to get this job he'd had to sign a form waiving his (recently established)right to a maximum working week of, I think, 40 hours. True, nobody twisted his arm to make him sign it, but there was not much option. we still need unions, and I think the unions are missing out by not bringing in the unemployed in some way.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we still need unions?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 08:53 PM

kendall - It's not considered proper to "watch your ass" anymore. It's a form of sexual self-harassment! I am shocked that you would recommend such behaviour to Mousethief! A woman in a local business here has brought a lawsuit against herself for this very abuse, and is seeking damages to the extent of $3 million.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Do we still need unions?
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 09:16 PM

I'm not worried, MT's ass is not worth that much! Besides, that was a suggestion, not an order.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we still need unions?
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 01:11 AM

Are you saying that I'm suggestible?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Do we still need unions?
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 09:42 AM


John In Remote Kansas (JIRK) on LIK's cookie
[We gotta get me my own email address. I want my own cookie.]

To Mousethief
According to a small item buried on page 14A of our local newspaper this morning, you get your chance to vote on Thursday. Although I don't have any inside knowledge, based on precedent with Boeing unions, some of the things you might expect:
PC2 clericals could get a local charter much like the shop workers, with strict seniority rules and published payrolls. I believe, however, that you are one of the PC6 people, and you could expect an organization – and eventual contract – more like the existing Engineering and P&A groups.
Washington State permits union shops, where you can be required to be a union member in order to work there. Because Boeing does business in so many places where this is not permitted, it ain't gonna happen. Washington state also permits dues checkoff. What this means is that, if you work in a bargaining unit represented by a union, you can be required to pay dues even if you choose not to be a member of the union.
The shop unions at Boeing in Washington State have been working to get dues checkoff for many years, and may have succeeded for some shop locals, but the company has to agree to make it part of the contract, and it is unlikely to happen for a "professional" bargaining unit. (If dues checkoff is contracted, nonmembers usually pay less than full dues.) There is possibly some justification for this, since the union must "represent" all members of the bargaining unit, whether or not they are members of the union. That's the LAW.
I'm not sure about Philadelphia, Huntsville, California, etc where Boeing has facilities, but Kansas is one of those "Right to Work" states where the dues checkoff is NOT legal.
If representation is approved, you will eventually get a contract. In all likelihood, it will not immediately change things by very much. The important thing for the union to do now is to establish a baseline and terms for negotiation. If they do that well, then they have done well.
Having a contract is a good thing. The next time someone tells you that they prefer to make their own contract – ask to see a copy of it. It don't exist. Some may point to their hiring offer as though it is a contract, but the first time you accept a change in that agreement (your first raise?) that contract is superseded and you are an employee at will (if you made through probation).
One of the MOST important results of having a contract is that the union is entitled to have proof, from the company, that the company is in compliance with the contract. This means that the union will soon know, and will tell you if you ask, what the pay ranges are for your skill code, and the distribution of pay by experience, years of service, and other criteria. While they are generally (in the white collar contract case I would expect for PC6) not permitted to tell you what any specific other person is earning, at least you have a chance to know where you stand within the group.
Even if you could write your own individual contract, you wouldn't know if it was a good one unless you know what everyone else is earning for doing similar jobs. Ask Boeing for yourself if you don't mind being ridiculed – you know how much you'd find out that way.
Especially with Boeing's penchant for "merit" raises – given only to those with warm lips or other meritorious performance qualifications, it sometimes seems – it is also helpful that the union can tell you, in general terms, how those raises are distributed. It's important to know if you are k(colloquial term deleted) impressing the right bosses when you plan for your future.
Boeing at Everett alone has approximately 60 open "human rights/discrimination" complaints at any given time. A very few years ago one of their "facilitators" indicated that they settle about 30 per month. They have only been taken to court once, so far as I know, and that was in a class action involving several hundred claimants. When I tried to consult an attorney about a personal difficulty with Boeing, I was told by one attorney (who answered the receptionists phone by mistake) "Boeing has such a record of harassing attorneys that they would drive me out of my practice if I took a case against them." Two receptionists said that the attorneys in their office would not even consider taking a case against Boeing for the same reason – almost as if they were all reading from the same script. Thirty eight other qualified attorneys simply refused to return my calls. My union was helpful, to a degree, but even with their help it seemed more rational for me to take the early retirement that Boeing offered at about that time.
Hopefully, you will never have a problem. But if you do, do you think you can do it alone?
Representation – yessss maybe. INFORMATION is the most important thing you can get from being in a bargaining unit at Boeing.
Keep your ears up – and good luck.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Do we still need unions?
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 11:35 AM

Wow John, thanks for the very informative post! Yeah, to me it kinda boils down to a few things, not least of which is: which would I rather be rewarded for, ass-kissing ability, or tenure? Since I'm lousy at sycophancy, I'll take tenure.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Do we still need unions?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 04:37 PM