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Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger

Fedele 16 Jun 01 - 07:54 PM
DougR 16 Jun 01 - 09:00 PM
M.Ted 16 Jun 01 - 10:22 PM
DougR 16 Jun 01 - 10:51 PM
Rick Fielding 16 Jun 01 - 11:34 PM
GUEST,LynnFedele 17 Jun 01 - 12:18 AM
Fedele 17 Jun 01 - 06:07 AM
paddymac 17 Jun 01 - 06:44 AM
Peter T. 17 Jun 01 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,Tone 17 Jun 01 - 11:20 AM
DougR 17 Jun 01 - 12:06 PM
raredance 17 Jun 01 - 09:32 PM
JenEllen 17 Jun 01 - 10:12 PM
GUEST,fasfreight 17 Jun 01 - 11:56 PM
paddymac 18 Jun 01 - 12:49 AM
GUEST,Claymore 18 Jun 01 - 12:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jun 01 - 12:35 PM
GeorgeH 18 Jun 01 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,UB Dan 18 Jun 01 - 02:19 PM
Kim C 18 Jun 01 - 05:15 PM
mousethief 18 Jun 01 - 05:24 PM
Peter T. 18 Jun 01 - 05:32 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jun 01 - 06:27 PM
toadfrog 18 Jun 01 - 09:02 PM
GUEST,Claymore 18 Jun 01 - 11:39 PM
DougR 19 Jun 01 - 12:38 AM
GUEST,Fedele 19 Jun 01 - 06:57 AM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 19 Jun 01 - 07:11 AM
paddymac 19 Jun 01 - 07:28 AM
bassen 19 Jun 01 - 08:03 AM
Grab 19 Jun 01 - 09:07 AM
Wavestar 19 Jun 01 - 09:58 AM
Peter T. 19 Jun 01 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 19 Jun 01 - 11:13 AM
Auxiris 19 Jun 01 - 11:15 AM
Peter T. 19 Jun 01 - 11:23 AM
M.Ted 19 Jun 01 - 11:31 AM
mousethief 19 Jun 01 - 11:31 AM
DougR 19 Jun 01 - 01:16 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 01 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,Claymore 19 Jun 01 - 03:26 PM
Peter T. 19 Jun 01 - 04:55 PM
mousethief 19 Jun 01 - 05:24 PM
Greg F. 19 Jun 01 - 06:11 PM
GUEST,Wavestar 19 Jun 01 - 08:18 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 01 - 08:20 PM
Fedele 21 Jun 01 - 04:39 PM
Fedele 21 Jun 01 - 04:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jun 01 - 05:34 PM
mousethief 21 Jun 01 - 05:58 PM
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Subject: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Fedele
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 07:54 PM

An international campaign has been launched to revoke Nobel Prize assigned to Henry Kissinger. His responsability in plotting against democracy and supporting dictators and repression everywhere in the world is so clear that I don't need to remind you.
So we could ask Greenpeace to give a Environment Protection Prize to George W. Bush. Or maybe Amnesty International could give a Human Right Prize in memory of Adolf Hitler; this is one way to be coherent, the other way is signing the petition at
www.peacelink.it (click on Kissinger's face)


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: DougR
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 09:00 PM

Gee, Fedele, what an idea. What if Kissenger doesn't want to give it back though?


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 10:22 PM

I bet he spent the money--


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: DougR
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 10:51 PM

M.Ted: You're probably right. He probably needed it. :>)


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 11:34 PM

Wait a minute guys...wasn't Nobel the guy who invented Dynamite or something?

How 'bout you just revoke his Miss Congeniality award?

And while we're at it, I would like THESE awards revoked:

Brando's Oscar for "Last Tango in Paris". Sheesh! He was awful in that.

Seriously, are folks JUST discovering that Henry K was a devious strategically Machiavellian creep?

I'm trying NOT to be totally cynical, but aren't these awards STRICTLY Politically motivated? Like awarding the Olympic games or something... surely there are more important current issues....I mean They aren't ACTUALLY gonna revoke it. I suppose if it's JUST to stir some shit then I can understand the motivation, but what are they gonna do, send a FEDEX truck to his house to get it?

Rick


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: GUEST,LynnFedele
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 12:18 AM

Hi all. I caught a blurb in a zine about Kissinger having to flee France last week in front of a subpeona regarding Operation Condor. None of the major US press reported the story. Any info on what actually happened?


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Fedele
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 06:07 AM

Of course, I don't think any Special Squad will go to Kissinger's home and force him to give back that prize. But these are some thoughts:
Yes, there are more important issues, but this doesn't exclude others.
Yes, it won't work, but I use to do what I think is right, not what I think it works.
Yes, it won't work, but everybody must know that we know, we remind and we care.
Yes, Nobel Prize is always political, but it should be given to people who did at least a bit effort to make a better world, not to people who consciously supported dictators and massacres.

Of course, majpr medias are too concerned about shit to tell things like these. I knew about Kissinger's problem with European courts through the indipendent Italian newspaper "il manifesto". You can try www.ilmanifesto.it but it's in Italian.


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: paddymac
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 06:44 AM

How about reclaiming the Nobel given to David Trimble as well.


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 10:53 AM

I think Henry Kissinger is a swine and a monster, but he will have to stand in line for prize revocation, etc. Pearl Buck got the Nobel prize for Literature instead of James Joyce. Luise Rainer got the Best Actress Award for "The Good Earth" over Garbo's Camille. What did these have in common -- Pearl Buck wrote "The Good Earth"!!!!!! Conspiracy theorists, start your engines.
yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: GUEST,Tone
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 11:20 AM

Paddymac: why?


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: DougR
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 12:06 PM

Let's revoke 'em all!


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: raredance
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 09:32 PM

A quarter of a century ago Tom Paxton wrote"

"It's Kissinger in China, oh it's Kissinger in Cairo,
Kissinger at NATO in the grand old power play.
But the white bones of Allende tell another darder story;
For you never got to Chile but you killed it just the same.
....
O the white bones of Allende and the scattered bones of Chile
Are not silent, they are screaming, they're your peace prize Dr. K."

But then Tom always has been ahead of the curve on things.

"White Bones of Allende" from "New Songs From the Briarpatch" by Tom Paxton.

rich r


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: JenEllen
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 10:12 PM

Of course it is politically motivated! Why else would folks make the same stupid mistakes time and time again, and then devote so much energy and fervor to 'righting the wrong' instead of making sure that similar mistakes don't happen in the future? Politics survives on hype.


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: GUEST,fasfreight
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 11:56 PM

It's all in the new book, The Trial Of Henry Kissinger by Christopher Hitchens.


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: paddymac
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 12:49 AM

Tone - I suggest starting w/ McPhelimy's "Committee" (recommend the revised version), and then follow Trimble's efforts to collapse the GFA and the entire peace process in NI. I can appreciate his precarious position viz-a-viz the hard-liners in his party, though I'm not sure I really understand all the nuances of his pandering to them.


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 12:24 PM

CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS! (Next sentence reread and then deleted during the reflection that mind-numbing ignorance is sometimes not the result of choice, but of circumstance.)

Someone with an ounce of integrity or brains please do a background search on him, before you accept one word of what this fraud has to say.

Why am I not suprised that no one in this thread has mentioned Lee Duc Tho, who declined the Nobel because, as one of his biographers revealed, he knew that the NVA would attack as soon as the Americans were gone. Kissinger was at least trying to remove the Americans from the war. Tho knew that the only thing waiting for the South Vienamese was torture, rape, and re-education, as soon as Tho's bosses could impose it.

And remember that in the openings to Red China, as clumsy as they were for the murderous bunch that "tanked" free speech at Tiennamein Square, Kissinger did more for peace than any politician of his day.

The Left has always relied on two propositions, that fools are born every minute, and that diplomacy, like making sausage, is a messy business, and later subject to the clucking tongue review by those with an agenda. And a review of ex-communist Mark Radosh's new book, "The New Left, the old Left and the Left Behind Left" postulated that "Unless the Left rewrites it's failures, or blames them on some evil plot that twarted the desired outcomes, it will be doomed to relive them, to the quiet ridicule of history."

DBBTCMO (Dogs Bark, But The Caravan Moves On)

PS: And the song that Tom Paxton wrote about the Killing Fields, or Pol Pot, or Tienamien was... hello... anybody there?


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 12:35 PM

I suppose it's something that they didn't give one jointly to Hitler and Chamberlain after Munich...

And how come Milosevic missed out? Or Ariel Sharon?


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: GeorgeH
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 02:03 PM

Small injection of fact here . . misguided and plain wrong they may be at times (Kissinger being a prize example) but Political they ain't! (conservative - possibly . . )

As for Claymore's Claptrap, sorry, life's too short to take it seriously . . . "Justifying" Kissinger on the basis of the Red Chinese being even worse is the politics of the Kindergarten (and remember THEY don't claim, with God's Given Grace, that they are the moral superiors of the rest of the world ...)

G.


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 02:19 PM

okay, okay...let's have a "do over"


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Kim C
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 05:15 PM

when I was a wee little girl, I had a crush on Henry Kissinger. I think it was the accent.


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 05:24 PM

I'll bet it wasn't the nose.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 05:32 PM

The Left has certainly never relied on the proposition that fools are born every minute -- I thought that was what advertising was for -- and I have never heard a Leftie ever once remark that diplomacy was a messy business. In my experience of diplomacy, diplomacy is tedious business, left to dullards who find trade missions interesting. The Left has usually relied on propositions such as a society is judged by how well it treats its most vulnerable, as opposed to how it treats its most powerful. Just because Christopher Hitchens is an idiot, and the Chinese think they are the moral superiors of the rest of the world (which many of them do, and which of us does not?), doesn't mean that Henry Kissinger isn't a murdering swine. (Thought for the day!)
yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 06:27 PM

Gosh, Claymore, what on Earth makes you think that only rightwingers and conservatives would be appalled by the atrocities perpetrated by China at Tiananmen Square, or by Pol Pot in Cambodia? Or China in Tibet? Or any number of other examples? I am appalled by atrocities regardless of whether it is a right wing or a left wing government which commits them...and I am what you would call a leftist, to say the least.

Gimme a break.

You make the usual facile assumption that all people of any opposing political viewpoint to your own on any substantive issue must be "fools", to use your term.

I make no such mistake when assessing conservatives. Some of them are very bright people, and deserving of respect.

Of course, you can be very bright and still sometimes be mistaken...with regard to some particular matter.

I think you would find many leftists in agreement with you on a variety of issues, while disagreeing with you on others...so don't be so hasty as to dismiss all leftists as "fools". That is just really lazy thinking on your part. In fact, it sounds kind of like unconscious bigotry to me.

I regard both the political left and the political right as having failed humanity miserably at this point in history. Mainly because they have wasted their talents and energies in fighting each other, instead of finding common ground. Their victims fill the graves of places like Cambodia, Vietnam, and Guatemala.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: toadfrog
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 09:02 PM

Right on, Little Hawk! But the godawful failures of the political Right and Left, appalling as they are, are as nothing compared with the ghastly failures of the Political Center! O Lord help us all!!


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 11:39 PM

LH, At no point did I make the "lazy" or "ususal facile assumption" that people who disagree with me are fools. A more careful reading would show that I confined my remarks to this issue. There are many liberals whom I completely disagree with, and yet profoundly respect, ie Joe Biden, Charlie Rangel, and Mario Cuomo to name just a few, and I have to believe that whether or not they would say so in public, they would regard this issue as utter claptrap by slathering loonies whom they cannot afford to offend since they fill up the back of the classroom on very cold nights at Democratic rallies.

(Those who know me are not suprised that I regard vociferous fundamentalists of either stripe with the same weather eye, and became pro-choice after I had to guard an abortion clinic from the lunatic fringe of the Catholic and Baptist churches. And be advised, this was not a knee-jerk reaction, but the cold calculation that abortion might eventually reduce the potential number of these wackoids).

And wasen't it a Lazy Assumption on your part, about my having lazy assumptions?

Additional points I made, which I still wait to see repudiated by something other than vitriolic invective:

1. Any diplomatic move with the world importance of Kissingers drive to open up China, especially in view of the fall of the Soviet Union, (one of the more consumate products of the "China Card").

Even though I stated "Kissinger did as much for peace as any politician of his day", unlike the statement about Paxton, Kissinger was the one truely "ahead of his day".

Paxton was one of a maudlin herd of folksingers writing tantrum songs that took a day at the most to finish. Kissinger is regarded universally as the architect of the China policy, fighting single-handedly against the very conservatives you decry, to sell the plan to a very (as usual) suspicious Nixon. And it took years to develop, in absolute secrecy.

Like most winners of the Nobel Peace Prize, Kissinger won it for partaking in talks which ended a regional conflict , but his greatest contribution to world peace went unheralded by any prize. Even though China is now the only nation even remotely capable of taking on the US, we are on a better footing with it now, due to Kissinger, than we ever were with a nation that three years after being an Ally, pulled Eastern Europe behind the Iron Curtain.

2. My second point was to ask anyone to name any song by Tom Paxton addressing Tiennamien Square, the Killing Fields or Pol Pot. Since he was so "of his time", this should be easy to refute. (Are there ANY english language songs about these subjects written by liberals who were "appalled by the atrocities". It sounds "apallingly" quiet to me... maybe some poetry?)

3. And this "international campaign" sounds like a group of ESL types, with free email, nobody to speak to, and too much time on their hands. Certainly more time than I have... (changing jobs from Disaster Planning to a new job as Safey Director at a Job Corps training center, after a riot tore the place up. "There's a new sheriff in town".)

I may not be able to get back to this debate soon, but I will look it up...


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: DougR
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 12:38 AM

Claymore? Charlie Rangel?


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: GUEST,Fedele
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 06:57 AM

Never thought that anyone of you was a fool and never said I like Chinese "communist" government and the things it does and did. Two wrongs don't make a right thing.


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 07:11 AM

I never thought he should have had it in the first place, but no-one asked me. Now we're upsetting the Canadians by forcing knighthoods on their citizens! As a protest I'm going to send back my...(Oh, wait a minute, I've not got anything to send back!).OK, I promise to refuse a life peerage when they offer it to me OK? ("for services to life support systems for ailing geriatric jokes")
RtS


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: paddymac
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 07:28 AM

Fedele's right, er, correct. Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts will. :>)


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: bassen
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 08:03 AM

Check ALL the laureates as they're correctly called at www.nobel.no before you make broad, sweeping judgments. Consider the depressing number of times a prize hasn't been awarded.

Bear in mind that the prize hasn't always had the same status, provincially Scandinavian in some periods... Take into consideration that many of these laureates made considerable contributions to lessening the level of human conflict, not necessarily glory boys and not necessarily resolutions of conflicts; Just good, journeymen work that did well for many...even though we haven't a clue as to who they are today.

bassen


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Grab
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 09:07 AM

Question 2: I know of a song by David Knopfler (MK's little bruv) about Cambodia, at least.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Wavestar
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 09:58 AM

Joan Baez wrote a damn good song about Tienemein Square.

It's called China. Also wrote one called Cambodia, about... can you guess? I'm guessing you don't really listen to the folksingers you degenerate, Claymore.

Lyrics for both found here: http://www.joanbaez.org/jblyrics.html

-J


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 10:03 AM

It is hard to know where to start on this. How the fall of the Soviet Union had anything to do with "the China card" is too deep for me. I thought it had something to do with Poland, the collapse of East Germany, etc. Oh, Henry Kissinger probably believes that he was responsible for the fall of the Soviet Union, and Mark McGwire's 70 home runs, but why anyone else should believe him is a mystery.

Next, the idea of China "taking on" the U.S. is so pathetic. China has under 50 active nuclear missiles, which it will bump up to respectable numbers if the Americans persist in driving them to do so with this stupid missile shield nonsense. If you want to create a nice new enemy, you are doing a good job of it. But anyway -- The "only nation remotely capable of taking on the United States" and indeed obliterate the U.S. in 20 minutes is RUSSIA. HELLO?????Remember Russia? Thousands of missiles? Still aimed at you. Right now. Today. The country George Bush just cut funds to to support the dismantling of the nuclear apparatus there.

.What is all this nonsense about Kissinger opening up China as his big deal? It might be remembered, if priorities matter, Western opening to China was inaugurated by Pierre Trudeau and the Canadian government; and the French and the British and others were not far behind. All Nixon did was open China to America. Be still my beating heart. Meanwhile, if China was closed at all, it was because the Americans refused to have anything to do with the Communist Chinese government because they were so obsessed with Chiang Kai-Shek. Joe Stilwell spent much time in vain trying to get his own government to see what was happening, to no avail, and, among the other pieces of blind nonsense, they threw out all the people who knew anything about Asia out of the Foreign Service as soft on Communism, which is one reason why the Americans found themselves bewildered by the Korean War, and stumbled around lost in Vietnam. Convincing American right-wing conservatives that they were a bunch of stupid bastards and had been wrong for 30 years was something of an achievement, perhaps worth the Nobel Prize in Physics, as the only known instance of refuting a natural law, i.e. the inexorable gravitation of right wing Americans towards even deeper pools of lunacy.

3) Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon came into power as liars, that they had some plan for peace. This turned out to be another 4 years of a stupid war to absolutely no purpose, which led to thousands and thousands of deaths, American, Vietnamese, the bombing of a neutral country, and more lies.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:13 AM

While we're on honours did anyone notice Bert Weedon (guitar teacher to the masses) got an OBE and James Galway, flautist was honoured as well.
RtS


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Auxiris
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:15 AM

Well, Clay, I've heard that people who respect the law and love sausage should never watch either one being made.

Aux


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:23 AM

Here you go, that Joan, Commie flake:

CHINA
(Words and Music by Joan Baez)

In the month of May, in the glory of the day
Came the descendants of a hundred flowers
And their fight it did begin with the aging Mandarin
And they fought with an extraordinary power
Everyone was smiling, their hearts were one
In Tiananmen Square

But it seems that the Spring this year in Beijing
Came just before the Fall
There was no summer at all
In Tiananmen Square
China... China

There's peace in the emerald fields, there's mist upon the lakes
But something is afoot in the People's Hall
The spirit of Chu Ping is alive in young Chai Ling
And the Emperor has his back against the wall
Black sun rising over Tiananmen Square
Over Tiananmen Square

But it seems that the Spring this year in Beijing
Came just before the Fall
There was no summer at all
In Tiananmen Square
China... China

In the month of June, in the darkness of the moon
Went the descendants of a hundred flowers
And time may never tell how many of them fell
Like the petals of a rose in some satanic shower
Everyone was weeping in all of China
And Tiananmen Square

But it seems that the Spring this year in Beijing
Came just before the Fall
There was no summer at all
In Tiananmen Square
China... China

And even the moon on the fourth day of June
Hid her face and did not see
Black sun rising over Tiananmen Square

And Wang Wei Lin, you remember him
All alone he stood before the tanks
A shadow of forgotten ancestors in Tiananmen Square

And my blue-eyed son, you had no one
You could call a hero of your age
You have the rainbow warriors of Tiananmen Square, singing
China Shall Be Free
China Shall Be Free
China Shall Be Free

© 1989 Gabriel Earl Music (ASCAP)


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:31 AM

Claymore,

From this comment," Paxton was one of a maudlin herd of folksingers writing tantrum songs that took a day at the most to finish", one is inclined to think that you are not really interested in folk music--this is, after all, a rather precipitous dismissal of the reason that the rest of us are here--

I personally don't have a problem with the way the express your political views, but if you don't like folk music and folk singers, then you shouldn't be here. You won't find another place in cyberspace that has as many members of that "maudlin herd of folksingers" as at the Mudcat--


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:31 AM

Golly, will Claymore eat his words? Out of honor?

Alex


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: DougR
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 01:16 PM

One thing about it, Peter T., no one can ever accuse you of being a U. S. admirer, can they?

DougR


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 01:25 PM

Okay, Claymore, I will concede that you are not a total raving loony, and that you have some ability to engage in rational thought...

I am a generous sort.

Not only did Joan Baez (how liberal can you get?) write protest songs about Tiananmen Square and the Killing Fields, she also protested human rights violations by the present Communist government of Vietnam against its own people. Quite a number of other leftie folksingers wrote similar songs about the same events. I've heard them at the folk festivals. They don't get played on the radio, which might be why you haven't heard them. And guess what? I wrote a protest song about Tiananmen Square. I've never see anything else in my whole life that made me as angry as what the Chinese Army did at Tiananmen Square.

I guess we're not all as maudlin and one-sided as you think.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 03:26 PM

Not much time but I'll try

Wavestar the word is denigrate, (unless you know something about my sex life that shouldn't be public) ;) but most of the songs I love have no politics involved. (However I was probably the only Marine officer with an Autoharp in VN in 69.)

Mouse, my point with Paxton still stands - no songs. But to come up with just one song by Joan Baez, and a smattering of other songs about China, Cambodia etc. against the hundreds that protested the VN war, is just a tad unbalanced. But judging from some of the responses, it must have been the thought that counted. I'm sure the Chinese have a few, but its hard to hear them from the re-education camps. But to concede the point, at least there was one song... now does anybody really feel better?

LH, I appreciate the generosity and will do my best in the future to extend the same. I just think that bringing up a subject that is almost thirty years old, with vociferous opinions expressed by people who were sperm counts at the time, does try my patience, though God knows they are welcome to express them. No one has yet come up with a more significant achievement by one person than the "China Card".

Peter T, you do need to review some of the unclassified needs assessments by the US military. All of the ones just released under the Rumsfeld options studies point to China. Things can change, but a study of the national growth patterns of the US and China point to an economic, as well as geo-political, head butting in about 15 years. Russia now has too much to lose, and is surrounded by ex-captive nations. In a nuclear exchange, China just backs off it's one child, forced abortion policy. I repeat that China is the only nation remotely capable of taking on the US. (But your point about the important opening of China by Trudeau was well taken, I honestly didn't know Canada had a fleet off China).

I will try to get back, on my newly purchased but still boxed Blue Screen Beast.


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 04:55 PM

I am a great admirer of the U.S., which is why I am appalled at its behaviour sometimes. Yes, there is nothing like the old Rumsfeld options studies for a really unbiased look at China. And those Chinese, the old yellow peril, they sure don't care about their people, unlike us who are real human beings who care about their children, they will just breed us into extinction, and after the BIG ONE GOES OFF they will just put their new babies on the top of their rockets and send them over in the dead of the night, and one day we will wake up and all be eating with chopsticks. Give me a break.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 05:24 PM

Golly, Tienanmen lasted 1 day, and the Vietnam War what? 30 years? I just can't imagine why there would be more songs about the one than the other. Further, the V.W. was something OUR gov't was doing. Protesting what some other gov't is doing, far away across the ocean, seems kinda pointless. The whole POINT of protest songs is to get something to change, right?

Alex


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 06:11 PM

Not quite fair to revoke an award already given to Kissinger- and that misses the point anyway. He should be tried in the Hague for war crimes & genocide. He's responsible for more deaths than Pol Pot. Why he's escaped endictment this long is a mystery.

And in fairness, too, LH this is a bit off:

... it sounds kind of like unconscious bigotry to me."
From the above posts, the bigotry is quite conscious; most know-alls tend to be bigots of one sort or another. Question is: does the assumed 'omniscience' create the bigotry, or the other way round?

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: GUEST,Wavestar
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 08:18 PM

Correction noted, Claymore. As you surmised, that's what I meant. My apologies.

My correction of you, on the other hand, has been quickly brushed off...

-J


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 08:20 PM

LOL!!! By God, this has become one entertaining thread...

Peter - I like eating with chopsticks! After you get the hang of it, it seems to make the food taste better... :-)

Greg - Well...I think virtually everyone is bigoted about something (including me), only we usually aren't aware of it as bigotry, that's all. Being a know-all, as you suggest, certainly can exacerbate the problem.

Kissinger won't be tried for anything, because he has powerful friends in high places among the elite that rule the West at present.

Claymore - You have certainly spiced up this thread! I think I could get to like you. I tend to agree with your assessment that there is a looming possibility of confrontation at some point between America and China...in maybe 15 or 20 years from now. In the nearer future I think there is much more danger of a local war between India and Pakistan...or worse...India and China. Either could have very serious repercussions.

There is also still the danger that some unforseeen crisis could lead to a short and deadly war between America and Russia...but only if one or both of them totally loses its mind. It would be a suicidal war for the Russians and for most of us in North America as well.

I have a very, very low opinion of the ruling Chinese leadership (although I like Chinese people just fine) and I regard them as capable of just about anything, given the right circumstances.

I have a very low opinion of Henry Kissinger too (in a moral sense), although I think he's a smart cookie...and he did pull off some very canny political maneuvers, no doubt.

And hey, I'm 52, so I'm old enough to have an opinion about Henry Kissinger. I think a majority of us here at Mudcat are somewhere around that age range.

Cheers,

- LH


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Fedele
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 04:39 PM

My mother is a retired teacher. One thing that she often tells is: when some of his pupils were making noise and she called one of them to be quiet, he sometimes told:
"But also Xxx was making noise!"
"Were YOU making noise? Be quiet!"

This story isn't so amazing and interesting - also because I still have problems with English language - but it's to tell that if I accuse Kissinger, your answer can't be "why don't you also accuse X and Y and Z and ... and ..." - and the same things goes for folksingers, you can't say "well, you wrote a song about Kissinger, but you didn't any about X and Y and Z".

In my point of view, so it's also a nonsense quarreling about "who is the worst s**t". I'd rather say a more poetical "A s**t is a s**t is a s**t is a s**t".

I must also remind you all that despite of its ruman rights violations China is a strong business partner for the U.S.: "business is business".

And some questions:
Which country refers to itself as "Home of the Brave, Land of the FREE?" China or U.S.?
Which country wages war everywhere in the world proclaiming itself Advocate and Defender of Human Rights? China or U.S.?
Which country has a lot of military garrisons and air bases in Italy and strongly conditioned my country's politics, both foreign and internal, during the whole Cold War? China or U.S.?

(Just the first ones that came to my mind. A lot of questions like these could be written).

PRESIDENTE SALVADOR ALLENDE:
PRESENTE AHORA Y SIEMPRE!

(I tried to avoid rhetorics till now but I couldn't resist...)


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: Fedele
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 04:43 PM

Oh, the thing started to revoke his Nobel Prize for Peace. I hope people who have this opinion will sign the petition:

http://www.peacelink.it/tematiche/latina/nobel/


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 05:34 PM

people who respect the law and love sausage should never watch either one being made

Especially in the case of the love sausage. (Well, spaw's out of action for the moment, or I'm sure he'd have made the necessary comment...)


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Subject: RE: Revoke Nobel Prize to Henry Kissinger
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 05:58 PM

My love sausage ....

No, I can't do it. Never mind.

alex


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