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Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation

GUEST,leeneia 18 Jun 01 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Willa 18 Jun 01 - 02:17 PM
BanjoRay 18 Jun 01 - 08:12 PM
Helen 18 Jun 01 - 09:03 PM
Snuffy 18 Jun 01 - 09:23 PM
GUEST,leeneia 18 Jun 01 - 10:47 PM
Lyndi-loo 19 Jun 01 - 04:13 AM
GUEST,sian away from work 19 Jun 01 - 11:26 AM
Lyndi-loo 19 Jun 01 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,leeneia 19 Jun 01 - 11:46 AM
MMario 19 Jun 01 - 11:56 AM
BanjoRay 19 Jun 01 - 03:21 PM
Lyndi-loo 20 Jun 01 - 04:36 AM
sian, west wales 20 Jun 01 - 06:34 AM
Jon Freeman 20 Jun 01 - 07:07 AM
GUEST,Carwen 02 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM
sully3561 22 Feb 09 - 04:30 PM
Trevor 23 Feb 09 - 12:08 PM
sully3561 23 Feb 09 - 01:30 PM
sian, west wales 23 Feb 09 - 02:07 PM
sully3561 23 Feb 09 - 07:29 PM
sian, west wales 24 Feb 09 - 09:19 AM
sully3561 25 Feb 09 - 11:15 AM
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Subject: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 01:20 PM

In a couple of weeks, we are going to a do program of Welsh folk music for the St David's Welsh Society, and we want to teach the members how to sing Huna Blentyn in Welsh. For various reasons, including the fact that many members are elderly and get flustered by change, we want to print the real words and below them a phonetic version using English spelling. Like this: Heena blentin, un vee (or would it be vuh?) min-wes.

Here are the Welsh words:

Huna blentyn yn fy mynwes
Clyd a chynnes ydyw hon
Breichiau mam sy'n dyn am danat
Cariad mam sy dan fy mron
Ni cha dim amharu'th gyntun Ni wna undyn a thi gam
Huna'n dawel, anwyl blentyn
Hun'an fwyn ar fron dy fam.

I have a friend who has studied Welsh and we are aware of how consonants are pronounced. (f = v, ch as in loch) It's some of the vowels she is unsure of. As in "ydyw," for example.

I would appreciate it if a person who knows English and Welsh would supply the phonetic spelling. I think the easiest way would be to copy this message (Ctrl + C) and save it somewhere else so you can see it and type on the same document. Then copy it again and post it.

The original is from the Internet. There was a caret, which I cannot type, over the a in the 6th line.

Merci


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: GUEST,Willa
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 02:17 PM

No expert on this, but I did have some help from a Welsh speaker; I haven't dared to sing it yet. There are some Welsh language sites which will give you some help. An added problem is that there are apparently regional variations in the pronunciation of the u sound. I was told that Welsh is essentially a phonetic language, so much is said as written. Single f is v, ch is usually soft as in loch,y is sometimes short i and sometimes short u.
This is the nearest I can get to it, but I think a Welsh speaker will be along soon to help us both out, this being Mudcat. It's a beautiful lullaby, and I'd really like to sing it.
huna blentin,in vu munwes
chlid a hin nes ud you hon
bry kee ow mam sin din am danat
carry ad mam sin dan vu mron
nee ka dim am ha ruth (short u) gintun (hard g)
nee na un din ar thi (as in thin) gam
hun an dowel (like towel)an will blen tin
hun an vwin ar vron du vam
I do have another verse.
remember that Welsh is a beautiful lyrical language, so the above attempt at translation is far too harsh; the sounds blend and flow much better than i can show.


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: BanjoRay
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 08:12 PM

This is my attempt. I spoke only Welsh until I was about 5 years old, though I don't speak too much of it these days - I live in England.

Huna blentyn yn fy mynwes
Hinna blentin unn ver munnwess

Clyd a chynnes ydyw hon
Cleed ah chunness uddew honn

Breichiau mam sy'n dyn am danat
breyechiai mamm seen deen am dannat

Cariad mam sy dan fy mron
carriad mam see dan ver mrron

Ni cha dim amharu'th gyntun
knee chaa dim ammharreeth gun-tin

Ni wna undyn a thi gam
Knee oona inndin ah thee gamm

Huna'n dawel, anwyl blentyn
Hinnan da-well ann-ooil blenntin

Hun'an fwyn ar fron dy fam.
Hinnan vooeen arr vronn duh vamm

Notes: TH is always pronounced like THICK not THIS.
I've used double vowels to show the sound, not the length.
Emphasis is always on the last but one syllable.
WYL (OOIL) is pronounced like OIL, but with an OO instead of O
What I've called VER is pronounced like in EVER but without the R

I hope this helps
Ray


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: Helen
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 09:03 PM

The name of the song is Suo Gan, isn't it?

Somewhere in my piles of music is a folder with these "phonetic" spellings for lots of Welsh songs, from when I was in a Welsh choir, here in Oz. What BanjoRay put in is fairly similar to what we sang, I think.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 09:23 PM

There is an English phonetic transcription of Suo Gan on this thread SUO GAN Lyris needed please, plus several English translations. There are also other threads discussing the song where it is called Sou Gan or Sho Gan. Just type Suo Gan in the Digitrad and Forum Search box on the main threads page and you'll get them all


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 10:47 PM

Thanks, everyone for your help. We are making progress here. Many people call the song Suo Gan, but the term is merely a rough equivalent to "lullaby," so that isnt' much help. So we just call it Huna Blentyn.


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 04:13 AM

I believe that this is the song that was used as background music in the film "The Empire of the sun" A beautiful song. Being a Welshwoman, the words look as they sound to me, but reading Banjo Ray's transliteration I can see why they might be difficult to a non Welsh speaker.

F is always pronounced v FF is F C is always hard Ch as in Loch dd sounds like th in Then


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: GUEST,sian away from work
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:26 AM

Banjo Ray is pretty spot-on, but I'd make a couple of points...

Huna blentyn yn fy mynwes Hinna blentin unn ver munnwess

I've never seen "yn fy mynwes". It's usually "ar", pronounced 'are'

And "ver" should be "vuh"

Also 'huna' is closer to 'heen-ah'.

Clyd a chynnes ydyw hon Cleed ah chunness uddew honn

Breichiau mam sy'n dyn am danat breyechiai mamm seen deen am dannat

Perhaps more like Breye-chee-eye, and 'dyn' would be 'din' (short 'i' sound)

Cariad mam sy dan fy mron carriad mam see dan ver mrron

Again, not 'ver' but 'vuh'

Ni cha dim amharu'th gyntun knee chaa dim ammharreeth gun-tin

Ni wna undyn a thi gam Knee oona inndin ah thee gamm

'undyn' = 'een-deen'

Huna'n dawel, anwyl blentyn Hinnan da-well ann-ooil blenntin

'huna'n' = heenahn

Hun'an fwyn ar fron dy fam. Hinnan vooeen arr vronn duh vamm

'huna'n' as above.

Makes you break into a sweat trying to think this out, doesn't it!? I think the Welsh National Gymanfa Ganu Assoc. in N. America is going to republish the (very) old phonetic hymnal - I don't know if they're thinking of doing anything similar for their folk book...

sian


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:31 AM

Depends if You're South Walian, North walian or West Walian. hee hee


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:46 AM

Thanks, Sian. You addressed some of the questions I posted in a second message. Our thoughts crossed in the mail.

Two sources have "ar" in the first line, so I think I'll go with that.

Let's close this thread and add any new thoughts to the thread called Huna Blentyn step 2.


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: MMario
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:56 AM

would actually be helpful for people later on if discussion continued in THIS thread (at least until it gets to about 100 posts)


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: BanjoRay
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 03:21 PM

Lyndi-Loo, are you not totally unknown to me?

Cheers
Ray


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 04:36 AM

No Banjo Ray I am not totally unknown


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: sian, west wales
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 06:34 AM

L-l, you're right about north/west/south but how do you explain how to say the North Walian "u" by internet phonetics? Awkward crew, those Gogs.

sian


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 07:07 AM

Sain, Gogs rule - just you wait... Caernarfon is the true capital of Wales... one day you will realise and learn to speak proper! ;-)

Seriously, I wish I could help with the pronunciations but I am a Saes. I did do some Welsh in my first period in N Wales (67-72 - age 7-12) but I can't really remember it - all I have these days is a confused mix of French and "pigeon Welsh" and there was never really much Welsh spoken in Llandudno. I'm not even sure what Welsh we were taught but I've a feeling they could not even get a cup of tea, a headache or smoking right - what sort of word is smocio?

Jon (an ysmugier);_)


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: GUEST,Carwen
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM

I come from near Rhosneigr any questions are welcome


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation (revisited)
From: sully3561
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 04:30 PM

I sang this song as a boy treble many years ago. Now, my young son has been tasked with it and has asked for my help with pronunciation of the last two verses. Gulp! It's been nearly forty years, but this is what I've dredged from my poor old memory. Any help greatly appreciated!


Huna'n dawel, heno, huna,
Heen-ah'n da-well, hei-noh, hee-nah,

Huna'n fwyn, y tlws ei lun;
Heen-ah'n voo-een, ah tloos ei leen;

Pam yr wyt yn awr yn gwenu,
Pahm arr oo-weet ahn, awur yoo-uhn gwe-nee,

Gwenu'n dirion yn dy hun?
Gwe-nee'n dirr-yohn, uhn duh heen?


Ai angylion fry sy'n gwenu,
Aye ahn-gahl-yohn, vrree seen gwe-nee,

Arnat ti yn gwenu'n llon,
Arr-nat tee uhn gwe-nee'n chlon,


Tithau'n gwenu'n ôl dan huno,
Tee-tha'een gwe-nee'n ohl dahn hee-noh,

Huno'n dawel ar fy mron?
Heen-oh'n da-well arr vuh mrron?




Paid ag ofni, dim ond deilen
Pah-aye-d ahg ahv-nee, deem ohnd dei-len

Gura, gura ar y ddôr;
Gee-rrah, gee-rrah arr ah thorr;

Paid ag ofni, ton fach unig
Pah-aye-d ahg ahv-nee, tohn vahch ee-neegh

Sua, sua ar lan y môr;
See'hrah, see'hrah-arr lahn ah mohrr.


Huna blentyn, nid oes yma
Heen-ah blen-teen, need oei ah-mah

Ddim i roddi iti fraw;
Theem ee rrohthee, eetee vrraw;


Gwena'n dawel ar fy mynwes
Gwe-nah'n da-well, arr vuh muhn-wess

Ar yr engyl gwynion draw.
Arr yoo-urr ein-hyeil gwuhn-yohn drraw.


Where: Aye = English long 'I', ei approximates English long 'A', oh = somewhere between English short and long 'O', hr approximates German 'hr' (as in fuhrer).

Gosh, how can such a bloody jaw cracker sound so smooth and sweet when sung?

Cheers,

Tim from Texas


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: Trevor
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 12:08 PM

We (Rapsquillion) do this from time to time and we have it written phonetically to help us Sassenachs sing it.

If you p-mail me your e-mail address I'll attach it for you.

(One of our number once introduced it in a set of songs we do in 'foreign languages'. We were in Montgomery, Powys, at the time!).


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: sully3561
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 01:30 PM

Trevor - LOL!

p-mail on the way... Thanks!


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: sian, west wales
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 02:07 PM

Not bad, sully. I've made a few tweeks. Very "Empire of the Sun"!

Huna'n dawel, heno, huna,
Heen-ah'n da-well, HE-NOH, hee-nah,

Huna'n fwyn, y tlws ei lun;
Heen-ah'n voo-een, UH tloos ei leen;

Pam yr wyt yn awr yn gwenu,
Pahm UR oo-weet UN, awur un gwe-nee,

Gwenu'n dirion yn dy hun?
Gwe-nee'n DEER-yohn, uhn duh heen?


Ai angylion fry sy'n gwenu,
Aye ANG-UH-LEE-YON, vrree seen gwe-nee,

Arnat ti yn gwenu'n llon,
Arr-nat tee uhn gwe-nee'n LLON, (shape mouth for "L" and exhale)

Tithau'n gwenu'n ôl dan huno,
TI-THAYE'n gwe-nee'n ohl DAN hee-noh,

Huno'n dawel ar fy mron?
Heen-oh'n da-well arr vuh mrron?



Paid ag ofni, dim ond deilen
Pah-aye-d ag Ov-nee, dIm ohnd dei-len

Gura, gura ar y ddôr;
Gee-rrah, gee-rrah arr UH thorr;

Paid ag ofni, ton fach unig
Pah-aye-d ahg Ov-nee, tohn vahch ee-neegh

Sua, sua ar lan y môr;
See'AH, see'AH-arr lahn UH mohrr.


Huna blentyn, nid oes yma
Heen-ah blen-TIN, need oeiS UH-mah

Ddim i roddi iti fraw;
THIM ee rrohthee, eetee vrraw;


Gwena'n dawel ar fy mynwes
Gwe-nah'n da-well, arr vuh muhn-wess

Ar yr engyl gwynion draw.
Arr UR ein-GIL gwuhn-yohn drraw.


If you want to PM me with a phone number I'll go over it with you.

Falch eich bod chi wedi pasio'r can ymlaen i dy fab!

sian


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: sully3561
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 07:29 PM

Sian,

Thanks so much! That softens it up a bit. My old Jesuit choir master was German, which accounts for my memories of a harsh "chllon" (llon) and "see'hrah" (sua), I suppose. Imagine a poor German's frustration while trying to teach a bunch of American kids with deep southern accents to sing in Latin, let alone Welsh! :) My son, Sean, is also challenged, given his west Texas twang edged by Spanish. This will help him, I'm sure. I had to Google "Empire of the Sun." I must have missed it, but I think we'll give it a go this weekend.

Best,

Tim

PS - No language skills here; but, if you said something to the effect that I should be proud to be passing along the legacy to my son, you're quite right. I am! Thanks again.


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: sian, west wales
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 09:19 AM

You're welcome, Tim. The offer still stands. If you send a phone number, I can ring you (Skype-out is a wonderful thing for cheap international calls. Or, if you're on Skype, you can get me on tracdir)

Any reason why you aren't using the first verse?

sian


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Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation
From: sully3561
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 11:15 AM

Sian, PM on the way... At first, we thought another boy was going to sing the first verse. That has apparently changed, and my boy will now sing all three. :) I think we covered the pronunciation of that one fairly well from the early comments in this thread. Talk soon...

Tim


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