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BS: Should UK join the Euro ?

Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 18 Jun 01 - 10:43 PM
GUEST,john c 19 Jun 01 - 02:42 AM
Linda Kelly 19 Jun 01 - 03:19 AM
Steve Parkes 19 Jun 01 - 03:28 AM
Lyndi-loo 19 Jun 01 - 03:54 AM
John J 19 Jun 01 - 04:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Jun 01 - 06:09 AM
Steve Parkes 19 Jun 01 - 06:16 AM
Skipjack K8 19 Jun 01 - 06:29 AM
paddymac 19 Jun 01 - 07:40 AM
Ringer 19 Jun 01 - 08:58 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 19 Jun 01 - 09:20 AM
Ringer 19 Jun 01 - 09:32 AM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 19 Jun 01 - 09:50 AM
Fiolar 19 Jun 01 - 09:58 AM
Terry K 19 Jun 01 - 10:02 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 19 Jun 01 - 10:27 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 19 Jun 01 - 10:45 AM
KingBrilliant 19 Jun 01 - 10:59 AM
okthen 19 Jun 01 - 11:01 AM
Steve Parkes 19 Jun 01 - 11:04 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 19 Jun 01 - 11:06 AM
Steve Parkes 19 Jun 01 - 11:20 AM
Steve Parkes 19 Jun 01 - 11:25 AM
Fiolar 19 Jun 01 - 11:37 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 19 Jun 01 - 12:02 PM
Steve Parkes 19 Jun 01 - 12:21 PM
JedMarum 19 Jun 01 - 12:30 PM
JedMarum 19 Jun 01 - 12:32 PM
Skipjack K8 19 Jun 01 - 12:43 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 19 Jun 01 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,Canadian Driftwood 19 Jun 01 - 02:06 PM
Grab 19 Jun 01 - 02:07 PM
Steve Parkes 20 Jun 01 - 03:32 AM
Steve Parkes 20 Jun 01 - 03:34 AM
pavane 20 Jun 01 - 04:07 AM
Terry K 20 Jun 01 - 04:21 AM
Ringer 20 Jun 01 - 05:10 AM
dr soul 20 Jun 01 - 06:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Jun 01 - 06:52 AM
Wolfgang 20 Jun 01 - 07:33 AM
Ringer 20 Jun 01 - 08:00 AM
pavane 20 Jun 01 - 08:01 AM
Wolfgang 20 Jun 01 - 08:50 AM
GUEST,nick 20 Jun 01 - 09:09 AM
Snuffy 20 Jun 01 - 09:13 AM
Ringer 20 Jun 01 - 01:58 PM
Wolfgang 20 Jun 01 - 02:11 PM
Grab 20 Jun 01 - 02:16 PM
JedMarum 20 Jun 01 - 02:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Jun 01 - 04:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Jun 01 - 04:10 PM
Steve Parkes 21 Jun 01 - 03:41 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 21 Jun 01 - 08:55 AM
Fiolar 21 Jun 01 - 10:03 AM
Wilfried Schaum 21 Jun 01 - 11:00 AM
Fiolar 21 Jun 01 - 11:28 AM
Ringer 21 Jun 01 - 11:46 AM
Ringer 25 Jun 01 - 08:32 AM
Wolfgang 25 Jun 01 - 09:00 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jun 01 - 11:05 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 25 Jun 01 - 11:30 AM
mooman 25 Jun 01 - 12:19 PM
Terry K 30 Jun 01 - 02:02 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 30 Jun 01 - 11:47 AM
GUEST,hot potatoes ... 30 Jun 01 - 02:47 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 30 Jun 01 - 10:23 PM
vindelis 01 Jul 01 - 04:25 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Jul 01 - 04:30 PM
R! 01 Jul 01 - 04:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jul 01 - 07:20 PM
mooman 01 Jul 01 - 07:24 PM
Ringer 02 Jul 01 - 07:56 AM
Wolfgang 07 Nov 01 - 01:50 PM
GUEST 07 Nov 01 - 08:07 PM
Ringer 08 Nov 01 - 06:28 AM
Wolfgang 08 Nov 01 - 06:48 AM
Ringer 07 Dec 01 - 09:38 AM
Wolfgang 07 Dec 01 - 10:38 AM
Gervase 07 Dec 01 - 11:06 AM
EarlofSidcup 08 Dec 01 - 09:54 AM
John MacKenzie 08 Dec 01 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,=QQ= 08 Dec 01 - 12:00 PM
Ringer 08 Dec 01 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,=QQ= 08 Dec 01 - 07:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Dec 01 - 08:01 AM
Wolfgang 10 Dec 01 - 07:16 AM
Ringer 10 Dec 01 - 07:21 AM
Wolfgang 10 Dec 01 - 07:35 AM
MudGuard 10 Dec 01 - 09:28 AM
Ringer 18 Jun 02 - 08:48 AM
Wolfgang 18 Jun 02 - 10:10 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 18 Jun 02 - 10:51 AM
GUEST 19 Jun 02 - 12:41 AM
Hrothgar 19 Jun 02 - 04:33 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Jun 02 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,John from Hull 06 Jun 03 - 08:30 AM
GUEST 06 Jun 03 - 08:39 AM
mooman 06 Jun 03 - 08:43 AM
John MacKenzie 06 Jun 03 - 09:49 AM
mooman 06 Jun 03 - 10:27 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jun 03 - 07:46 PM
John MacKenzie 07 Jun 03 - 07:01 AM
GUEST,sorefingers 07 Jun 03 - 03:07 PM
GUEST,adam 17 Nov 04 - 08:50 AM
Big Al Whittle 17 Nov 04 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,Boab 18 Nov 04 - 02:46 AM
Wilfried Schaum 18 Nov 04 - 07:07 AM
burntstump 18 Nov 04 - 07:15 AM
Wolfgang 19 Nov 04 - 03:55 AM
burntstump 19 Nov 04 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,Terry K 19 Nov 04 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Betsy 19 Nov 04 - 01:36 PM
dianavan 19 Nov 04 - 01:49 PM
Ooh-Aah2 19 Nov 04 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,Wolfgang 23 Nov 04 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,Ferdinand 27 Jan 05 - 11:08 PM
*Laura* 28 Jan 05 - 05:47 PM
Liz the Squeak 28 Jan 05 - 05:57 PM
MudGuard 28 Jan 05 - 05:59 PM
JennyO 28 Jan 05 - 11:16 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Jan 05 - 05:09 AM
MudGuard 29 Jan 05 - 05:46 AM
Wilfried Schaum 29 Jan 05 - 07:52 AM
Terry K 29 Jan 05 - 09:20 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Jan 05 - 08:04 PM
Terry K 30 Jan 05 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,a normal person 03 Feb 05 - 07:25 AM
ard mhacha 03 Feb 05 - 07:46 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Feb 05 - 05:57 AM
Ringer 21 May 10 - 05:54 AM
Ringer 31 May 10 - 03:11 AM
Wolfgang 31 May 10 - 01:39 PM
Ringer 01 Jun 10 - 09:47 AM
Stringsinger 02 Jun 10 - 09:44 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Jun 10 - 07:47 AM

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Subject: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 10:43 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST,john c
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 02:42 AM

I live in Austria, and I tend to travel quite a lot. A quick rumage through my wallet revealed 27 Deutschmarks, 3100 Belgian francs, 20 Bank of Scotland pound notes, 120 Austrian schillings and 20000 Italian lire. Not to mention all the small and totally useless small change I´ve brought back from other countries that I have lying around. In answer to your question - YES!!!
J.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 03:19 AM

yes- one continent one currency. Cannot understand why people link this with sovereignty. For years if you travelled abroad to Russia, China and a host of other countries you had to use U.S. dollars and noone blinked an eye, The use of the Euro will strengthen EurotradeThe downside? Well it will take the enjoyment out of waiting in the departure lounge and seeing how many useless items you can buy with the coins left over frm your holiday. (Got a lovely plastic kalideoscope in Portugal last year!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 03:28 AM

I think the big worry is that this is the thin end of the wedge, and will make it easier to introduce uniform rates of taxation throughout the EU. I seem to remember another continent where the issue of having tax fixed in another country caused serious upheavals. And come to think of it, later on they had more trouble when some states tried to leave their Union ...

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 03:54 AM

Definately. In fact there was a report in the Sunday Times about the euro coming in through the back door with all Virgin stores accepting Euro notes from January 1st and selected Marks & Spencer and other stores also doing this. They've already had their tills fixed to show prices in pounds and Euros. The only thing is that until Britain officialy joins the Eurozone then the exchange rate between the pound and the Euro will vary daily and the tills will have to be recalibrated regularly to reflect this. In fact, I'm in favour of a World currency. How many ponds, euros, lira, france, dollars to the Mundo?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: John J
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 04:10 AM

All very valid points, and as someone in business who does a small amount of business in Europe the answer must be yes. Many people I speak to (including me, not that I speak to myself, well not too often...) dislike the idea of the loss of the pound.

A buddy of mine came up with an idea: why not alter the value of the £ to equal 100 Euros? Also alter the value of the FFranc = 100 Euros etc etc. Make all the European currencies acceptable in all European countries, and hey presto! No problem with exchange rates, no apparent loss of sovereignty etc. It might be a little messy with different names of currencies, but what is wrong with dual marked currency?

To try to keep a country's currency in it's home country, banks could periodically exchange the different county's currency with one another. BUT that would cost the banks, and we all know how little money the banks make, don't we? (Whoops, sorry Ickle Dorritt!)

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 06:09 AM

I'd go for it. Can we have the same rate of duty on wines and beers as the do in France as well please...;-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 06:16 AM

... and can we set fire to their sheep and beat up their lorry drivers too?

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 06:29 AM

Yes from me. I do a lot of Dollar and Euro priced business, and I always lose my shirt converting back into Sterling. Afetr we join, I can whine about all the losses dealing Dollars into Euros!

Skipjack


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: paddymac
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 07:40 AM

Currency usages and disputes can sometimes be a substitute for other, deeper concerns. At bottom, any currency is just an agreed substitute for some less portable form of value. Back in the early 1800s, people in what is now the State of Indiana paid their taxes in pelts. Beaver for county taxes, deer for state taxes, and made change with mink.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ringer
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 08:58 AM

No.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 09:20 AM

Bald Eagle-Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ringer
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 09:32 AM

'Cos it's normal for rats to leave a sinking ship, not to join it. A more considered reply will follow...


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 09:50 AM

I will be interested to see how it works in Greece. Credit cards are unknown outside the cities and mass tourism areas and people even pay their utility bills in cash rather than use cheques. They have a strong preference for wads of drachmae. People hate making change, even when they've got plenty and often round bills down in your favour, how they'll cope with the Euro.....
RtS


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Fiolar
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 09:58 AM

A certain amount of paranoia is already starting to show about Europe. What difference does it make what the currency in your pocket is called as long as one can buy the normal things of life. Again I think I have made the point before that most of the present inhabitants of the UK came from Europe in the first place. Go back to the 1720s and Britain was ruled by a German for God's sake. How many remember that the good old £/s/d (in the days before decimalisation) which most people thought stood for Pounds, shillings and pence really stood for Libera, solidii and denaraii and was a throw back to the Roman coinage. Does any one now remember the "groat" or the "guinea" and I wonder how many tears were shed when they disappeared. Most anti-European feeling in any case has been stirred up by the bottom feeders of the gutter press who use use headlines as "Up Yours Delors" to sell papers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Terry K
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 10:02 AM

If we could reasonably compete with Europe in terms of labour costs and productivity it would be a great idea. So no.

Cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 10:27 AM

Fiolar, we still have the groat, it's 4p. And the Guinea is £1.05 (or is it £1.12?). It occurred to me that the name 'ecu' (for the Euro) was quietly dropped some time ago - I wonder if some German noticed that French coinage a couple of hundred years ago had that very name... Wolfgang?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 10:45 AM

Thanks for all your replies so far,the reason I ask is Tony Blair has promised us a referendum on this within 2 years, I am still not sure wich way I shall vote, but I think I trust you lot, more than I do this government.Maybe I am been cynical but I feel they will just do what they want anyway.I noticed recently a tin whistle internet site accepting euros, sorry I cant remember which one.john


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 10:59 AM

Pedigree dogs seem to be still sold in guineas for some reason. Never quite sussed that.
Sounds dead posh though.
Kris


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: okthen
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:01 AM

AMAZING! We got through the whole election without mentioning politics on MC (unless I missed something)and now we're discussing something so inevitable as if we could change it.

Oh well

cheers

bill


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:04 AM

Americans used to be quite keen on guineas back in the fifties and sixties, as there were, nreas as dammit, three dollars to the guinea. Happy days ...Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:06 AM

King Brilliant-Racehorses as well, I wonder it they will rename the 2000 guineas, Somehow the 2000 euros just does not sound right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:20 AM

Well, as 20,000gns = £21,000, this comes to about €31,400 at the current rate of exchange. Kind of trips off the tongue, doesn't it?!

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:25 AM

BTW, I e-mailed Epiphone ages ago and suggested that the euro symbol infringes their trademark, so they should demand a royalty of, say, 1/100th of 1% on the face value of every note and coin issued. They sad "thanks for your loyalty", but I don't kow if they're planning to do it--I expect they'll cut me in if they do!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Fiolar
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 11:37 AM

Yes I know the groat was four pence (old money) and the guinea was twenty-one shillings but as currency in today's world, they no longer exist in coin form. Same as the farthing and the half-penny and the half-p piece. Likewise the three-penny bit - all gone and now only seen in collectors books. What about the ten-bob note? As far as I am concerned, the sooner we are part of the larger unit, the better for business not to mention the ease of travel etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 12:02 PM

How easy it is to forget that if you surrender your financial control to the European countries, and political control by foreign bureaucrats, you have given away liberty and political freedoms that many died to sustain. Those of who have forgotten history will be forced to relive it the hard way. We have traded for years without surrendering political and monetary controls to others. Think long and hard before doing something that reduces democracy to a single European government. Yours, Aye. Dave ( staunch member of the Commonwealth group of nations)


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 12:21 PM

The Irish Republic has just decided by referendum to reject (for what seem to me perfectly sound financial reasons) plans for the EU to take in more member states; the politicians are very annoyed, because they gave the people the opportunity to chose and they made the wrong choice!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 12:30 PM

One continent - one currency - one government.

I think we should do the same thing in the North America. 'course my US dollars are already worth more then exchange rate for practical use in Central America (and South America for that matter). Now if we could just get those darn Canadians to be so forward thinking!

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 12:32 PM

Steve - I think you hit the nail on the head; next time they won't give the people the choice! After-all; government knows best.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 12:43 PM

Terry, you make the best defence for standing out here, IMHO. I once heard Norman Lamont describe economies as oil importing or oil exporting, and that European financial integration was impossible as the pressures on interest rates are opposing, ie Germany = oil import, GB = oil export. I don't ever recall him saying anything else that made sense, mind!

It may well be a red herring for the duration of this parliament, as even with a 'yes' vote for a carefully worded referendum question will be a side show to the 'correct conditions', which include what you spake of. These will not be met in the short to mid term, and cannot be 'bought' (i.e. Black Wednesday was about trying to buy stability for the Pound in the ERM - and it cost Lamont £30 Billion of my money in a week to find out Soros was right).

Dave, I agree with you that we should not be hostages to history, and loyal to the memory of the lives that were given to protect our freedom, but we are in Brussels, and hopefully will be 'In Europe, and running Europe'. We either evolve or wither off the coast of an economic bloc that will rival, and probably overtake NAFTA, before the nemesis that awaits all empires.

So yes, when the conditions are right.

Skipjack


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 01:37 PM

The idea of European trade is not something new. We have traded with Europe between and during wars for hundreds of years. My point is that the largest group of trading nations in the world is the Commonwealth. European business is in direct conflict with the UK, why surrender control to a European led bureaucracy? We have damaged our relationship within the Commonwealth by becoming Eurocentric I think its the biggest political and monetary mistake the UK ever made. Having said that; I am not opposed to certain principals of international law and economic cooperation. A single currency is simply not necessary; and as such it surrenders political control to a stateless bureaucracy run by the competition. My God is it possible we could vote in Communism by another name? Think long and hard about it first people. Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST,Canadian Driftwood
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 02:06 PM

Jed, I am in the US earning US dollars. When I go back to Canada for a visit a US dollar goes a long way. On the other hand, the relative strength of the US dollar has protected a lot of Canadian jobs during NAFTA. I can't imagine what a common currency would do for this continent, but I doubt if it would be good for Canada.

Skipjack8 Oil exporters / Oil importers seem to fight quite a bit within larger economies. Texas is a at political odds with New York State as Alberta is with Ontario, as Scotland is with England. Seems like the consuming States/Provinces/nations always seem to have more clout and get their way. I don't think that would change with European union. Energy policy would still be set to favor consumers rather than producers and cities rather than regions where the resource resides.

Commonwealth, what Commonwealth, It hasn't been a significant trading block in a long time. In the long run it makes more sense for Australia and India to trade is Asia, For the UK to trade with Europe and for Canada to trade within America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Grab
Date: 19 Jun 01 - 02:07 PM

If every country had the same economic condition, the same types and level of industry, the same government philosophy, the same level of taxation, the same level of national expenditure on health, defence, etc, the same welfare state provisions, then maybe it'd work.

But we have: Greece and Italy, who are not particularly industrialised, are quite poor countries, and have high national taxation and expenditure; Germany, which is highly industrialised with low taxes, whose power stations mainly run on fossil fuels; France, which is highly industrialised and who has a majority (IIRC) of nuclear power stations; etc.

As a side-note, the Mediterranean countries generally have an ethos that bribes, kick-backs and expense fiddles are part of a politician's income. This is not a xenophobic opinion, but the considered findings of the recent investigations into EU corruption. So far there's no sign that this supposed "crackdown" is actually stopping corruption amongst Euro-ministers and their entourages.

OK. So since every country in Europe has wildly different economic conditions, there's no way they can "pull together" on this. Particularly consider Italy and Greece; these are so radically behind Germany in economic terms, it's not even funny. So how can countries with such diverse economic interests set common tax and spending targets? It just ain't going to happen. And once tax and spending are fixed, individual countries are out of options if they want to take their own route on unemployment, encouraging industry or whatever, meaning that they can't take these decisions themselves and will have to ask the central committee to step in - if the central committee is chaired by a country who you've just pissed off, then you can forget it. And then add in the endemic corruption.

What about the old pre-metric currency? Well, what about it? Change 240 old pennies into 100 new pennies, and do the sums. Europe was not a factor. Dragging historical irrelevancies such as the original nationality of the King of England in 1720, or the origins of pre-metric British currency, into this is just as irrational as "Up yours Delors" - neither has any bearing at all on what economic union will give us today.

I'm not against joining a single currency bcos it makes us "less British", or bcos of some "giving away rights that ppl died for" jingoism. I'm against it bcos I can't see any benefits for us, and I can see a lot of ways it can hurt us. Maybe Britain's joining the Euro would strengthen the Euro and stop it slipping further, but I'm not sure it'd do much for Britain.

As far as "withering" without the Euro goes, we're certainly not the only ones without it. Denmark recently rejected joining the Euro, and Norway and Switzerland have both prospered despite not even being members of the EU. The UK has in fact recovered from recession rather quicker than the rest of Europe since ties with the ERM were cut sooner. Incidentally, Norway is also a much closer model for the UK than most other countries, since it too has oil and gas reserves in the North Sea (see Skipjack's post above on oil).

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 03:32 AM

But they've been proposing a unified taxation system for several years now in Brussels--a significant number of people with clout are taking it very seriously.

The original decimalisation proposal was for the pound to be replaced with something else (an Brit-dollar?) that would be worth ten shillings, with 100 cents to the B$, which is what happened in Australia: the Aussies were mostly) quite happy with the A$ and didn't miss the £. I think it was ailny the conservatives whoi wanted to keep the £. Most people of my age and under are perfectly at ease with the decimal (centesimal!) £--you get used to any change in time.
Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 03:34 AM

Sorry--for "$" read "$". You can tell that Netscape was written by Americans, can't you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: pavane
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 04:07 AM

Actually, the introduction of the florin, in the 1800's, worth one tenth of a pound (or 2 shillings) was supposed to have been the first step in decimalisation! The Guinea was a foreign gold coin, and slightly larger than the sovereign, so it was worth more.
Don't forget that Europe has previously had a common currency (In the Roman era), and that didn't last.
As for the Euro, it may be easier for tourism, but it appears we will lose much more in other ways than we gain in convenience. My vote is NO


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Terry K
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 04:21 AM

Grab, you're right, the fear is that there is more likelihood that joining the Euro will harm us than that it will help us. (Incidentally, Italy is quite massively industrialised!).

My biggest concern is that the referendum vote will be carried by totally unqualified people who quite obviously don't know - and can't know - the real issues. It will therefore be decided on emotional or "gut feel" grounds instead of economics.

The economic keys are interest rates and inflation. With a history of high and widely fluctuating interest rates and inflation rates (mainly because we are a property based economy) we will relinquish several of the tools we currently use to maintain stability. The result will be that when we our economy reverts to its "normal" behaviour, we will simply get fewer Euros out of the common pot. Economic suicide - forget all the emotive side issues.

As to the Commonwealth - ah yes, those were the days. But unfortunately they are'nt any more. I much preferred our lamb trade to be with the New Zealanders instead of with the French.

Cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ringer
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 05:10 AM

...when I have time...

Incidentally, JinH: TB has not exactly promised us a referendum within 2 years; he's only promised that the decision on whether or not to offer us a referendum will be made within 2 years -- strictly, he has said that the Chancellor's "5 tests" will be considered and, if they indicate "pass" then we'll get a referendum. But these 5 tests are entirely subjective, there's nothing quantitative in them at all; how, for eg, can you decide whether it'd be a good thing to join if you don't know the proposed joining rate? Anyway, my objections are much more fundamental than these 5 tests or any question of exchange rates: we'd be giving away freedom. There has been (almost - Dave the AM above is an honourable exception) no discussion of the issue of sovereignty, either in this forum or in the British press (which latter I consider to be culpable for not holding the British Government to account). And I find this strange, 'cos it's the most important thing. For one thing, it's open-and-shut fact whereas the economic benefit is questionable in the extreme. Who was it who said "Those who surrender liberty in exchange for economic gain deserve to lose both"?. (Got a bit carried away here -- hope you noted my restraintin my first posting above. This is not yet my considered reply.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: dr soul
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 06:34 AM

Excellent thread, ya'll.

Please think seriously about the changes that might be necessary to make this happen, and the possible effects on the institutions of Great Britain/England/the rest of the European continent.

My mental map for thinking about institutions:

At the core of society are PEOPLE - individuals, their families, and homes. Any given society has a certain TECHNOLOGY and language. Language will nfluence attitudes about other institutions. Technology is also a prime mover - a change in technology will bring about changes in other social institutions.

There are four primary types of social institutions - government, economy, social welfare, and ideology/beliefs.

GOVERNMENT institutions are how a social group makes rules, selects leaders, and resolves disputes. Government institutions include the legislative, executive, and judicial branches of legitimate governments, as well as the "illegitimate" institutions of political parties, lobbyists, vested interests, etc.

ECONOMIC institutions are how the society makes a living - i.e. agricultural activity, credit institutions (such as banks), the degree of industrialization, the nature of cooperative capital, land tenure, types of industries a county has, etc.

SOCIAL WELFARE institutions are how the society educates its young, takes care of its old, and deals with its indigent and infirm members.

IDEOLOGIC institutions provide values and philosophies. They include organized religions, as well as various philanthropic insituions.

So, as to whether "Should the UK join the Euro?", think of . . .

What institutions will be affected by this decision?

Do the benefits of doing so offset the adverse institutional impacts?

[good luck, mate!]


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 06:52 AM

There may be good reasons to worry about some things about the European Union - worries about things been done centrally that should be done locally, and multi-national companies being given a free hand to exploit people in Eastern Europe as a price for entry, and a reduction of smaller countries to second and third rate status. (See the article in today's Guardianby George Monbiot.

And those were the kinds of things that people were voting against in the Irish referendum last week when tghey threw out the Nice treaty.

But the actual currency is a diversion from all that -"save the pound" would make sense if it referred to weights and measures, which are far more important in daily life than currency. I'd have voted to keep LSD, partly because I was aware of the fact it referred to Roman currency and was a symbolic reflection of European unity. But that's long gone - "Save the L" - what the 'ell...


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 07:33 AM

Bald Eagle, you've been inviting this riposte with your picture about the rats and the sinking ship above (evil grin): Who are the British respectively the UK in this picture, the rats or the sinking ship?

Now a more serious look into history. Since the thirty years war or even earlier, in that part of Europe which later was to become Germany, there was a patchwork of statelets, Earldoms etc, with only Bavaria and, later, Prussia, playing a more than local role. They all had different currencies and taxes and tolls. On a fifty miles journey you could pass several customs. Germany played no major role in Europe. The French under Napoleon at the beginning of the nineteenth century could easily overrun Germany and without foreign (British and Russian, foremost) help, Germany would have been under French rule for a long time.

In all major economic indices of that time, Germany was way behind a country of comparable size, that is Britain, despite having more inhabitants. During the second half of that century the picture radically changed and Germany overtook Britain in many indices of productivity. In other indices, Britain was still in front, but the increase was higher in Germany. What had happened?

In 1838, most countries of Germany entered what we now call a common market (Zollverein was the word then), with abolishing tolls and customs within Germany and simplifying and fixing the rates between currencies. In 1871, a single currency was introduced in Germany and it was a success story despite the loss of sovereignity for the individual countries. The growing strength of Germany went hand in hand with the economic unification.

Well, I can understand if some of you say in hindsight you'd preferred all in all a week patchwork Germany to a strong unified Germany (was it a French or a British politician who said: 'I love Germany that much that I can't have too many [parts] of them'). But speaking only in terms of strength and not in what has been done with the strength, the economic and financial unification of Germany in that century was a success story.

So will the Euro and sooner or later Britain will join, reluctantly.

Dai, I can't help you with your question.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ringer
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 08:00 AM

EMU (Economic and Monetary Union (not, note, European MU)) is primarily a political issue: any supposed economic benefits are secondary. Its main objective, freely admitted by its key architects, is a political one - the further integration of the EU into a federal state.

*** Example 1 ***
Wim Duisenberg, President of the European Central Bank: "The introduction of the euro is neither an isolated nor a purely economic event. It is another, yet very important, step in the process of European integration. ... The creation of the euro is not the end of that process either,... economists all too often assess the costs and benefits of European integration in purely economic terms". (Dr. Willem F. Duisenberg 'The Past and Future of European Integration: A Central Banker's Perspective' The 1999 Per Jacobsson Lecture, Washington, 26 September 1999).

*** Example 2 ***
German Chancellor Schröder: the Euro is "an important step on the road to European integration". (Inaugural address to the Bundestag, 10 November 1998)

*** Example 3 ***
Bank of England Governor, Eddie George (OK - he's not a "key architech"): "...monetary union is fundamentally a political project rather than an economic issue." (Speaking at the British-Swiss Chamber of Commerce in Basel, Switzerland, 12 September 2000).

*** Example 4 ***
Arguing that the creation of the euro entails a "federal logic", Michael Barnier, European Commissioner responsible for reform: "...the only question [is] whether the EU should be a federal state modelled on Germany, or whether it should pursue the goal of political union 'through other means'." He conceded that Britain would have "serious difficulties" with his proposals on the abolition of a national veto in all areas of policy. (speaking to a meeting of the Commission on 14 June 2000)

This political dogma of further European integration is the explanation for the willingness of European leaders to press ahead with the Euro, regardless of the economic consequences. But they know well enough that, if ordinary people were to realise the extent of their political hubris, there'd be hell to pay, so they try to sell the project on its economic benefits.

So, first point: joining the Euro is to hand over our economic control to faceless, remote, unelected, undemocratic, corrupt, self-seeking, empire-building bureaucrats. And then there are the economic arguments which I'll address in a later posting 'cos I don't have time now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: pavane
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 08:01 AM

So should we look out, in the future for Brussels to rule on
Common (Harmonized?!?!)European standards for Folk music (None of those awkward modal tunes)
Mandatory dress codes, either breeches & waistcoat or lederhosen for men
Licencing of all folk dancers
Abolition of Morris Dance as non-European


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 08:50 AM

Bald Eagle sees correctly that the common currency will have more than just monetary or economic consequences. My consequence is different: I'd love to see more (direct) democracy on a European level so that the responsibility for decisions is with persons with faces who can be thrown out of job by elections.

Example #2 from above as a longer citation with context: The common currency is an important step on the road to European integration. But it is only a frame, a frame we have to fill with life. We need a quick and believable democratisation of the European institutions. The Federal Government [of Germany] is convinced that our Europe should not replace or abolish national identities.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST,nick
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 09:09 AM

1) I live in France. Since France's currency became tied to the Euro (Jan 99) the value of what little savings I have has been reduced by 20%+. Think about that one... You have £100 in the bank - you don't touch it, and a year later, you have only £80 (and prices are still going up...) 2) The cost of changing currencies (printing catalogs, changing computers, banking, printing the notes, etc, etc - just think about it) is phenomenal. 3) When, in Jan 2002, France actually starts to use Euro currency, I guarantee you prices will be rounded UP (to the nearest 99, as in 471 will make its way rapidly to 499, etc...) 4) At present, the euro essentially works by reducing the economies of France, Germany, Italy and the rest to the lowest common denominator... If they can possibly get away with it, they will bring in Poland, Rumania, etc. The value of the euro will then be tied to the economies of those countries... Guess what? My answer to the question is NO (and by the way, I AM English...) Nick


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Snuffy
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 09:13 AM

Bald Eagle, don't you mean:

So, first point: joining the Euro is to hand over our economic control to faceless, remote, unelected, undemocratic, corrupt, self-seeking, empire-building bureaucrats - but a a different lot to the faceless, remote, unelected, undemocratic, corrupt, self-seeking, empire-building bureaucrats who run it now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ringer
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 01:58 PM

I don't think it is inevitable, Wolfgang. For one thing, if we don't enter within the next few years (say 5), I don't think there'll be a common European currency to join. One function that sliding exchange rates perform is that of a safety-valve. If different countries' exchange rates are locked together, that self-correcting effect is lost. So Germany, now, is pressing the ECB for lower interest rates while Ireland needs higher rates to cool off its inflation. (Irish house prices, I heard, are 30% more than UK equivalents at the moment; don't know if that's true). Give it time, my son, and the sort of public dissatisfaction that was expressed in riots in Gothenburg will bring down governments and destroy the common currency. Sorry to sound like a Jeremiah: please note that my predicting and my wanting public unrest are different things.

As to your longer quotation from Chancellor Schröder, I think that though he talks the democratic talk yet he walks the federalist walk. I don't claim to hang on every word he speaks, but if he is pressing for greater European democracy and accountability, I missed it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 02:11 PM

Bald Eagle,

I hope we'll both be still here in five years. Then we'll probably know who was right. Anyway, I'm looking forward to when you find time to tackle it from the economic point of view.

BTW, what was different (from today) from your point of view in my example from history?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Grab
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 02:16 PM

On the "unelected front": most of the government system in any country is unelected. And that's as it should be - would you rather have professionals running government offices, or amateurs who have been elected bcos they looked pretty? Think about how well electing sheriffs worked in the southern US before you answer...

More to the point is lack of oversight from the ppl who _are_ elected to stop the empire-building. So long as the EU organisation can continue to get money without responsibility to see that it's spent correctly, I'd rather not bother. To be honest, I can't see the point of the UK being a member of the EU at all - if the money poured into that pit was channeled into healthcare and transport, we'd be in a damn sight better shape.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 02:56 PM

Canadian Driftwood - sorry I was joking about unifying Nrth American currency. In truth, if I was Canadian I would highly resent being forced to use a currency standard set by the US. The truth is, there are times the currency difference works in your favor, and it sounds like you can take advantage of that at the moment by earning in US dollars, and spending in Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 04:09 PM

But speaking only in terms of strength and not in what has been done with the strength, the economic and financial unification of Germany in that century was a success story."

But what is done with the strength is always far more important than the strength itself, whether you're talking about people or countries.

Personally I would like to see a Europe of strong regions, weak nations and a central administration that is purely at the service of the regions. Some of the smaller nations might count as regions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 04:10 PM

But speaking only in terms of strength and not in what has been done with the strength, the economic and financial unification of Germany in that century was a success story."

But what is done with the strength is always far more important than the strength itself, whether you're talking about people or countries.

Personally I would like to see a Europe of strong regions, weak nations and a central administration that is purely at the service of the regions. Some of the smaller nations might count as regions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 03:41 AM

All right, we heard you the first time! What would suit a lot of people, certainly in Britain and probably in other EU coutnries, is a confederation, which is not that different from what we have now. of course, we know where that kind of thinking can lead!

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:55 AM

I fear the consequences when people start talking about blocks of countries trading amongst themselves. The only hope for world peace and prosperity, is if we open up trade links globally. Myopic views about European, American and Asian trade blocks, becomes counter productive; insular thinking of this kind will prevent raising the living standards of other countries and truly block the ability to be objective when we try to develop international laws and standards. Just my own opinion, but think long and hard before supporting this type of block mentality. Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Fiolar
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:03 AM

Two points: (1) I don't think the people of Europe need to worry too much about the "riots" in Gothenberg. There's always a crowd of yobs who delight in joining into any passing trouble and with the internet now it is a marvellous opportunity to plan disruption. (2) Most history regarding Napoleon is looked at from the British side. Try the Irish side for a change. Suppose Napoleon had succeeeded in conquering and holding on to Europe? No Irish Famine? No Franco-Prusssian War? I could go on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:00 AM

Hi folks,

when Europe is growing together, it should have a common currency, too. We had the same problems in Germany some centuries ago. In the old Empire nearly every Prince or Imperial Town had its own money. The nominal worth wasn't accepted, because there were some differences of weight of the coins. In 1871 all the different currencies in gold or silver were substituted by the Mark (an old name for the pound - the good Emperor Charlemagne had beaten 240 Pfennigs out of one mark silver). It worked well, and why shouldn't it do so with the Euro? As a librarian I#m doing business with outlandish sellers, and a common currency will be more convenient. Or when travelling, imagine the lots of foreign currency you have to carry with you, loosing every time when changing. What a fellow student of America couldn't understand: Travelling with us from Germany to Sicily, he had to cross the borders of 5 countries with 4 different currencies! He couldn't believe it, but Europe has so small countries. What a blessing the common currency will be!

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Fiolar
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:28 AM

Totally agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ringer
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:46 AM

OK, some of the economic arguments. Much of what follows I've lifted from Lord Pearson's paper. As a matter of interest, I agree with the noble Lord that Britain should leave the EU, not just avoid EMU. Two arguments that I don't think he cites are, firstly, our constitutional (in the sense of psychological make-up) unfittedness. Unlike the other EU nations (some more, some less), we don't like the deceit of saying one thing and then ignoring it or doing the opposite. And not only do we draft in armies of bureaucrats to police Brussels' directives, we add to their detail. Secondly, there's a lot of anti-British feeling within Europe. Mainly, I think, this is because they are aware that we had to dig them out of the mire twice in the first half of last century, and their guilt and gratitude, which their pride won't let them show, finds outlet as anti-Britishness (Ireland, of course, has its own, different, reasons for anti-Britishness); that we did it both times with America's help also accounts for the anti-Americanism to which I alluded here.

EMU's basic flaw is that one interest rate must fit 11 different economies, where mobility of labour is low (probably because there is no common language), and interstate transfers on the scale practised in the USA are non-existent. (To hold the US together, interstate transfers through the federal budget can reach 20% of a state's GDP. The EU budget is at present limited to 1.27% GDP). The Europhile claim that interest and mortgage rates would fall if we join EMU is simplistic. We would certainly be forced to accept an interest rate which would be wrong for us (look at Ireland), risking inflation (look at Ireland), unemployment and, in the longer term, higher rates than if we stay out.

The UK does not have a long-term opt out of EMU, because a number of clauses have been left in the Treaty which commit us to run our economy in a 'communautaire' way, on pain of unlimited fines in the Luxembourg Court, (eg for 'exporting unemployment' or 'unfair tax competition'). Our adherence to the EU's Stability and Growth Pact ensnares us further. (That adds weight to my argument that we should leave the EU.)

The UK's economy continues to diverge from that of the EU, although it continues to converge with that of the USA. So the pound has tracked the dollar naturally, and moved away from the euro (to be more precise, the euro has moved away from the pound).

Thanks to its labour and social policies, the EU's share of world markets is declining (down 11% over the last ten years), while that of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) is increasing (up 21% over the last ten years).

If we join EMU, our eventual share of our partners' unfunded pension liabilities could amount to at least £20,000 per person or £1.2 trillion.

Britain's trade with the EU accounted for only 18.5% of GDP and was in deficit by £8.93 billion in 1999, and is in long-term decline. British exports to the North American Free Trade Area (NAFTA) have been growing at 9.2% a year since 1992, exports to the rest of the world have been growing at 8.5%, but exports to the EU have been growing at just 7.1%. This is despite the claimed "benefits" of the Single Market to trade within the EU. All the Single Market really achieved was a greatly strengthened Brussels bureaucracy regulating and limiting virtually every aspect of business activity.

The Institute of Directors has estimated that EU membership overall currently costs the UK between £15-25 billion each year - equivalent to £1000 per household. (Daily Telegraph, 7 February 2001)

In November 2000, the House of Commons Trade and Industry Committee (which is has a Labour Majority) attacked the government for ignoring the issue of euro transitional costs. The Government, says the Committee, is "unwilling even to discuss the costs" of adopting the euro, which is perhaps unsurprising, since the consultancy KPMG puts the total cost at £51 billion, based on responses from 300 firms that estimated the cost to them of £30 million each. The British Retail Consortium estimates the retail costs for making the changeover to the euro at around 2.5% of turnover, with smaller firms suffering disproportionately high costs. And who will bear these costs? Why, you and I will, of course. In the light of their magnitude, I regard arguments, such as we've seen above, which complain about the odd couple of quid paid in commission to a Bureau de Change, as trivial.

Britain's membership of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) in the early '90s cost one million jobs and sent 100,000 businesses bankrupt; her economy started to recover immediately she was squeezed out so unceremoniously. If you think EMU will be different, you'd better come up with some convincing arguments as to why. EMU is the ERM without the escape hatch.

There won't be a referendum on EMU unless the Prime Minister is fairly sure of winning it, but the country will go on being sucked into the quicksand of the rest of the Treaty, which we can't avoid while we stay in the EU. It's time to leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ringer
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 08:32 AM

Where's everybody gone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 09:00 AM

Bald Eagle,

I know that awkward feeling. While in real life I do not mind to have the final word sometimes, here in Mudcat I'd rather not have it. This has been dealt with in the first few posts of the Kiling the thread thread.

I for one was curious about your economic arguments and am glad for your post (I do not at all mind reading an opinion I do not share), but the many specific details are just bejond my knowledge and so I decided that's it for me (I hate dilettating on fileds where I have not enough knowledge).

Sometimes most is said and I do not at all mind if a political thread stops before the nasty posts start (seems e.g. that nearly all thread about US politics end with the gun question after the hundredth post).

But with your post and my post who knows, maybe there'll be a reprise of this thread.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:05 AM

I think bad eagle might just have swayed me to favour joining the euro after all.

But Wilfried remarks about currency don't really connect for me. About the only time I use coins or notes these days is in pubs and at folk festivals. The actual denominations aren't that important in practice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:30 AM

Thanks for all replies, if we ever get a referendum I think I will vote No.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: mooman
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:19 PM

I have no problem with the Euro personally. I am currently paid in it. My bank is switching all financial transactions to it as of 1 July (I live in Belgium...and before anyone jumps....no I have nothing to do with the European institutions!). I also travel a lot in Europe and the currency will greatly simplify things there. We don't yet have the notes and coins themselves to spend. That will come on the 1 Jan 2002 chaos day!

When I first came here 10 years ago I sold my house in England. Not being sure of the state of the financial markets, I kept part of my money in pounds sterling and the other part in Belgian francs before we bought a house here. Needless to say, that was then time the pound got devalued by about 15% and I ended up losing about GBP (sorry no pounds sign on my keyboard) 7000 to the currency speculators! I still smart about that as it would have bought quite a few nice and still much wanted musical instruments!

So basically, anything that helps reduce the grossly inflated bank accounts and million-pound bonuses of those blood-sucking money-market parasites is fine by me and I'm in general favour of a single European currency as were supposed to be in a single European market.

As some have mentioned above, I'm aware there is an agenda amongst some of the politicians and bureaucrats for wider European federalism and integration. I'm personally certainly not in favour of that.

As for the mass "Up yours Delors" hysteria whipped up by the British gutter press, I can only say that this serves to misinform the general public, contribute towards xenophobia and fill the already swollen pockets of a small group of already fabulously wealthy moneybags. It almost renders having a sensible debate impossible.

I'm quite prepared to accept that there are valid arguments pro- and con- the UK joining the Euro but how can there be a serious referendum unless the person on the number 39 omnibus can be communicated the relevant and accurate facts in an readily assimilatable (is that a proper word?) form and can clearly understand the issues?

Best regards to all,

mooman


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Terry K
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 02:02 AM

The only way to get a serious referendum is to make Bald Eagle's economic points (oh yes, mine too) into a snappy little slogan.

Otherwise the snappy little slogan generated by the pro-Euros will win.

Government by slogan, more opiate for the masses.

Cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 11:47 AM

How sad but very true Terry. Same thing with voters; a few minutes of TV will very often be the only influence on them to make a decision. Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST,hot potatoes ...
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 02:47 PM

Americans whether in US or EU are opposed not only to the Euro but the EU as well.

Why?

World domination that is why.

The UK and the Euro, matters not whether in or out as it looks now as if all of the continent except the UK will be in.

I see all kinds of reason not to join in newsgroups and the press, never seen one good reason yet!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 10:23 PM

I think this is an important thing, I heard somewere that a boss of a car facyory said "If britain does not join the euro I will put my facyory somwere else", I think this would be a bad thing, even though it would not affect me (I am just a delivery driver).I am just thinking of other people.I also feel sorry for the man who lost 7000 pounds, I think the rich people who know a lot about money, just like to rip off the poor people,this is just my opinion I dont know much about this kind of thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: vindelis
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 04:25 PM

I have just spent two weeks in Ireland and I can say for certain, that I for one, will be voting againt in any referendum on the Euro. If the UK were joining on 1 Jan 2002, based on the current value of the Euro, on the open market, every man, woman and child in the UK would see an overnight devaluation of 14 percent on the money in their pocket. (The Euro is currently trading at 61p Sterling, and we would still be expected to pay 70p sterling for each Euro in our pockets. Just thank God that you're not Irish and have to stump up 78.7564 pence for the same thing. (Pushing thirty percent inflation at today's rates). The people I have spoken to all feel thaty have been conned. Someone somewhere will get rich as a result of all this but it certainly won't be Joe Public, who will be well seen off as usual.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 04:30 PM

I post in haste, and have been meaning to make a considered effort on this thread for a couple of days, and the thread keeps growing and I havn't kept up so if I am ignoring or duplicating anyone, sorry.

We have already seen, in the UK, a time when interest rates needed to be cut to provide economic stimulation in the North East, but that was not economically wise for the overheated economies in teh CIty of London (the financial sector).

If we joint the Euro, the situation will be the same but worse - if one part of the EU has a vital economy, those with depression in another cannot be helped by the use of interest rates without risking inflation.

End of story for me. Btu I'm not a capitalist. A capitalist might say that the suffering of those who suffered was necessary to create a stronger overall economy and to allow for "trickle down". I dont't believe a word of it. Greed and selfishness are usually recognisable whatever label they are given.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: R!
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 04:58 PM

Currency issues aside, everying I've read dave me the impression that the UK will enjoy very little benefit - and shoulder a great deal of burden - by joining the EU. These were rather conservative, oh-for-the-good-olde-days publications alarmed at all the changes but surely there must have been a grain of truth there. Is it true that the UK will lose more than it gains? If so, why join? I've been perplexed by this for quite a while.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 07:20 PM

One thing that's true is that a common currency would make it a lot harder for shops and other people in England to rip people off, as they do at present by charging such inflated prices on pretty well everything. Tourists just wouldn't buy it, and nor would holidaymakers coming back again. Different currencies sort of anaesthetize you against recognising that kind of thing. "It's not real money" is how you always tend to feel.

I'm dubious about a lot of things about the EU, but having a common currency just seems like a sensible idea. A common world currency would be better.

So I think the Irish probably got it right - accept the euro without a fuss - and dig in on things that really matter.

Only thing is, as with the change from LSD, it's going to mean a lot of explanations about songs. And pound is a much better word fro rhyming, which is a bugger of a rhyme word.

I think they should change the name and instead call the common currency "the Quid" - which would mean that most people in Britain would accept it cheerfully. And it is a good Latin word, so should have excellent transcontinental street cred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: mooman
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 07:24 PM

Yes McGrath...I'd go along with that. The "Euro" does vaguely sound like something from a public lavatory...!

mooman


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ringer
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 07:56 AM

Rowana: I don't think that the government has ever published an analysis of the costs and benefits of joining. I freely admit that the major reason for my antipathy towards joining is "gut feel" rather than analytical-intellectual, but I'll use whatever economic arguments I can to make my case. And the fact that the powers that be haven't made an economic case leads me to suspect that there is no such case to be made. And, JinH, although such folks as Ghosn (sp?) of Renault/Nissan claim that if the UK doesn't join they'll relocate onto the continent, the UK still attracts the lion's share of inward investment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 01:50 PM

Harrods, Marks and Spencer, and several other London shops have announced today they will accept from next year on the Euro as currency "as part of our service". But they still accept the Pound until further notice (grin).

The French have a problem with the Euro that was unforeseen. The small change under the Euro will be the cent (100 cent = 1 Euro) and now they realise that 'cents' and 'cent' are homophones. So if you ask for a price and you think it is a bargain at 'cinq cents' (5 cents) you might also consider the possibility that what was said was actually 'cinq cent' (500).

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 08:07 PM

I imagine being sensible they'll just call them "centimes". And being French they'll push for everyone else to use the same word, and they'll probably succeed. It's a more comfortable word on the mouth anyway. "Cent" always sounds too abrupt.

Actually what they should do is give people the option of keep the national terms, when they change the money. So in England the Euro would be called the pound (or quid), and the cent would be a penny in France it'd be the franc and the centime, and so forth.

I can't see it'd be much more confusing - they could alsways call them New Pounds and New Francs. Or even Euro Pounds and Euro Francs, if it made peole happier.

I think that in England half the opposition would melt away overnight.

In fact there's no reason shouldn't just do it that way regardless. The same way for a century or so people in England used to call shillings "bobs", and five bob was "a dollar" - and the "quid" has never been an official term for the pound anyway; and the Sapnish talked about "duros" even though officially there wasn't such an denomination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ringer
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 06:28 AM

I heard a funny(?) story the other day: apparently the new euro coins are minted from a high-nickel alloy, and nickel allergy is one of the most common allergies. The article I saw predicted that many shop assistants & bank tellers (those handling currency all day) would come out in painful lumps. Is there any truth in this, or is it just another of those euro-myths (euro-mythtakes?)? What are US nickels, the coins, made of?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 06:48 AM

Article about allergy reactions to Euro coins.
Only the two big coins will contain nickel in quantities comparable to the currencies they< replace. The hard core of the critique is that the governments' tales that the new coins are 'hypo-allergenic' are at best meaningless propaganda.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ringer
Date: 07 Dec 01 - 09:38 AM

Lifted from here.

The Spring 2001 edition of Eurobarometer has recently been published, with a special survey on young people's attitudes to the EU. The most stark result is that young people in Britain view the EU as heading towards the creation of a single government for Europe. In effect, a superstate.

The survey questioned 10,000 young people aroung the EU, and 778 in Britain. They were asked 'which of the following best describes what the European Union means to you?' Most of the permitted responses were predictably all intended to be positive propaganda for the European Union, but a few opportunities for criticism crept in,and the results were as follows:

  • 235 Britons (30%)felt that the European Union did not mean anything to them.
  • 200 Britons (25%) felt that the European Union meant 'a European Government'.
  • 73 Britons (10%) felt that the European Union was best summed up as 'a lot of bureaucracy - a waste of time and money'.
  • 80 Britons (10%) felt that the European Union represented 'a risk to our cultural diversity'.
In contrast, traditional Europhile arguments got short shrift from Britain's youth. The argument that 'the EU guarantees lasting peace in Europe' was accepted by just under 10% of respondents. The claim that the EU meant 'securing a better future for young people' found only 62 supporters out of the 778, and even after months of misleading Britain in Europe propaganda, under 20% thought the EU was a way of creating jobs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Dec 01 - 10:38 AM

I've followed your link, Bald Eagle, but the small print I am interested in was missing (as so often in any popularised reports about surveys): Was there more than one reponse allowed or not? If not, you ask e.g. the people to state what they think the EU will bring and only to name one of e.g. ten preselected alternatives. Then any response in the more than 10% region would be a success. If yes, some of the response percentages are really very low.

However, without that information, I just hold back any comment that I might have.

Wolfgang (looking forward to the first real Euros to touch in exactly ten days)


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Dec 01 - 11:06 AM

Last week's Economist had an excellent supplement on the ligistics of the changeover to the Euro in those states contemplating it in the New Year.
And, like so much else fogging the issue, once one looks at it clearly, it ain't such a big deal (other than Tesco's in Ireland havign to reinforce their floors to cope with the extra small change for three months!).
There's an index of the Economist's coverage of the Euro here - and so far I've seen little to make me rreject the idea of joining and much to commend it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: EarlofSidcup
Date: 08 Dec 01 - 09:54 AM

I am very confident that before Britain has a referendum on joining the Euro, the currency would have got itself into deep trouble and that the French and Germans at least will be very angry about it.

A news item on BBC recently said that 75% of the Portugese had no understanding of the changeover that will be upon them in a few days.

It will all end it tears, mark my words!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Dec 01 - 11:39 AM

I see the euro sadly as an inevitability, and I for one will be sorry to see the end of sterling. With any luck I'll be dead by then,hopefully pre-deceased by TB.
Why does it not seem to have occurred to the EU to balance the exchange rates for each currency till they become a fraction of 100. We could then print one side of a note with whatever we want, £,DM,FFR,or whatever, and the other side with the equivalent amount in euros. There you are, your own currency, European currency,and the ability to compare prices exactly all rolled into one. Plus less chance for the profiteers to artificially inflate prices.It would work for me!!
Failte.....Jock


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST,=QQ=
Date: 08 Dec 01 - 12:00 PM

The replies are very interesting, and with due reverence to the Mighty Lord of Kent, I respectfully disagree!

The Bald Eagle, is this fellow an Amurican?, is, from the beginning of time, opposed to anything that belittles US World Domination by the recently SELECTED Emperor, Georgio the Turd, Coke Dealer, failed assassin/coward and idiot.

The 'NO Euro' views I read, a vast majority, see the BBC Forum, present all kinds of reasons, some good others sillier than a Pig at Ascot!

Few see the obvious up front advantage that traveling and Business in the Market will be easier thus impoving the prosperity of all. These are the same kind of British People who put us on the Frontier of Science, Technology and Economy when Britain was still Great. Again, the nay saying 'dog in the manger' mentality is drowning that point of view. I note with great sorrow the story of the Morris Motor Co, and how it both produced world beating Cars yet was destroyed by such jealousies.

Anti Euro case is always made upon hidden results, if you join 'the following bad things will happen including death by Mc Donalds generic food malnutrition' insert your value here. As if we are not able to figure it out for ourselves! Read my horrid English, I CAN THINK, READ THE NEWS for myself... and thank you for your concern.

Our Islands are very well able to decide this one based upon A letting Ireland try it out, and B if that works well making the decision, allbeit with certain reservations that protect the Pound until we are absolutely certain we will gain from the adoption.

NOT.

Reading Robert Schumans writings enables me to see something else here, I agree with Winston Churchill 100%, this is about Economy NOT Politics. It never was and tell you what, it never will be! If as the Amurican Euroscetpics argue our European Community did begin to meddle with Nationalities, diminsh our diverse and beautiful Cultures, then truely it has failed. Schuman's opinion, not mine. Accordingly the EU should be closed down, abolished, deleted etc and the weak economies ought to have their poulations comit suicide giving their land and property to the millions of Amuricans waiting at Gatwick in cheap hotels, smoking Pot, having sex parties, drinking weak Murican Beer, and posting Murican Propaganda on the Internet.

Seriously, the UK as a satelite of the USA scares, -Muricanism here- the freaking bejeebers out of me! Imagine thousands of Ladinos after they have reduced the US west coast to 3rd world poverty arriving at British Ports in 747s. Imagine them taking your jobs, living by the dozen in one room flats ALL OVER the Uk and Ireland. Imagine the reality of suddenly realizing that the photos overcompensate for color, these people are darker shade of brown! How would you cope? Are your ready to eat Tacos, drink Toquilla, eat Magic Mushrooms, snort Cocaine, kill your family with a Machette? If so then go with the wise, caring, concerned and pervasive Amurican, Uncle soft Voice Sam = SNAKE in yer head!

The Pound as a lone currency, the Commonwealth etc Sorry I am so sceptical it hurts! Who remembers the background of the Irish War of independance? Who remembers that the Commonwealth could have done the right thing and didn't. Who remebers that during the Potatoe Famine the most concerned international agency was a Native American Nation! Who can figure out where Britain begun the slide from The British Empire to the lowly UK?

Rather here is what I see, the Anti Euro camp wins, the UK continues to wobble toward the bottom as a world economy and Good Ole Uncle Sam =snake in yer head, comes to the rescue and the Pound is tied to the Dollar, yup Britain finaly and sadly again enslaved for the first time in nearly 2000 years. Tacos made in Texas from low quality Maize becomes the only food available to British people while the fine grade British grain is annexed and shipped back the the US to feed the ever increasing population of life prolonged retiree's who also conume 99.999999% percent of the world's most vaulable resources. You may eat generic Soy Beef Burgers at Mc Donalds in Worthing, the Murican Citizen in Mc Donlands Washington eats grade one Irish Beef, and guess what, he pays LESS for it!

Instead, I would vote for Europe not America, because in Europe I am by law and right a Citizen of the Continental Community. BUT In America I would be just another resident Alien. In Europe I can be a proud Briton, but in America just another member of the dwindling minority of fair skinned people, called Gringos. In Europe I could continue to expand Enterprise and create job, instead of in the USA having to apologise to the Bank Business Associate for NOT letting her come into my premisses - since her boy friend is a petty thief.

The Euro it is not just about Economics, but economics constitute the bulk of it's benefits.

I say without any reservation or doubt that we the British should join the Euro. Vote or no, I will support it, and if it is rejected, move into the Euro zone to reap the benefits which the US Dollar can now no longer offer.

Have a Nice time, Happy Hannukah, Merry Christmas

Old Muddie member ... now too creaky to sing or pick


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ringer
Date: 08 Dec 01 - 03:14 PM

Sorry, Wolfgang, I have no more information on the survey than I posted, but I don't argue with your thesis that the answers allowed to survey questions can affect the results. I posted without comment, as much to keep this thread alive as for any other reason, but it appears to me that the site I linked puts an overly rosy slant on results which could be interpreted somewhat differently: eg if 30% of British youth have a jaundiced view of Europe, presumably 70% feel either positive or neutral about it (or "don't know"). And how do you come to get your hands on euro cash early?

No, QQ, I am not American, but English. I chose my nom de plume, Bald Eagle, because it was a nickname bestowed upon me by someone I admire, which my daughter then picked up and ran with. You are not alone in having been misled by my chosen name, and in retrospect it was a poor choice.

You are also misled in thinking that my anti-Europeanism (I'm not actually anti-Europe, merely anti-EU and fervently anti-euro) is based on pro-Americanism. At least, I think that that's what you think, but your elaborate sarcasm really interferes with my understanding of the points you try to make. In fact, I am anti-EU because it seems to me that another tier of government is unnecessary, particularly a tier that seems to be run for the sole benefit of politicians and bureaucrats, is undemocratic, corrupt and opaque.

You claim that the only arguments for joining (or not) the euro are economic, not political, but you ignore the quotations from leading European politicians that I cited above which imply the opposite. The most important argument against joining, imo, is that to join would be to give away control of our economy, and that argument is more political than economic (paradoxical though that may sound).

If the argument is to be based on economics, then lets hear the economic arguments. I list several above against joining: do you refute them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST,=QQ=
Date: 08 Dec 01 - 07:28 PM

Hello, Mr Eagle.

Thank You for reading and commenting on my rant, very impressed that anyone has spare valuable time.

Since your thinking is deep and well read you should go and read some more on Banking, esp Costs and Benefits of Single Currency.

I don't need to do any of this since I can see, and would really blind not to, that is costs less to administer, is portable and last but not least is Neutral to all.

The other issue, ignored here, is that World Trade is tending towards a single currency anyway. It most certainly will not be the Pound Sterling!

So instead of becoming enslaved to a joker nation, the USA I choose, notice I have a choice only becuase the UE exists, not to embrace the Dollar but instead the Euro.

Purely self interest here not a Politcal decision. The Euro circulates in a Market of 300 Million with potential for 1 Billion. The Dollar is the Currency of the New Roman Empire, whose aim is Christainize, then enslave the entire world so that it's citizens may enjoy ever increasing material wealth. The UE does not aim at any of this silly nononsense, instead it aims to broaden free trade amoung Democratic States. IOW It's aims are Economic not Political.

I have no intention of trying to persuade any from their opposition to, their deep entrenched views about the UE. Instead I intend to be amooung the British Pioneers who reap the very high rewards of getting stuck in from day one.

Thank You for reading my reply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 08:01 AM

Whatever happens about referendums and formally joining it and all, it's pretty certain that within a few months the euro is going to be in circulation in England and accepted as valid currency, and prices in all kind of places will be displayed in euros as well.

If traders and shops think they are going to lose custom by refusing to deal in euros, they are going to deal in euros.

It's a pity they gave it such a silly name though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 07:16 AM

From 17th of December on, we all (in Germany) can get at our banks a so called 'small change kit' of the new Euro. We are not allowed to use it before the first minute of 1st of January, but we may touch it just to enjoy the feeling and to get used to it. That's their idea of a smooth start and as an incentive you win a minor amount of money by changeing 20 Marks into some assorted coins.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ringer
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 07:21 AM

Is that "minor amount of money" the difference between DM20 and a whole number of euros rounded up? (Be about €10 wouldn't it?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 07:35 AM

Not that much. We gain 0.008 DM by buying the (now comes the official German name:) 'starter kit', not worth walking even to the closest branch except for the fun of it.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: MudGuard
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 09:28 AM

Hello Wolfgang,

I have already touched the coins (they look very nice and shiny - but this might be because they had not been in use) and some of the notes (5, 10 and 20) as my brother-in-law already got his business starter kit.

And I also do not like the German name starter kit (probably an English name was chosen because England is not participating...)

MudGuard/Andreas


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ringer
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 08:48 AM

I thought I'd let you stew for a year or so, Wolfgang (*BG*), before I answered your question of 20-June-01 above (about how/why the single currency introduced in 1871 within the German statelets which became Germany succeeded). I know almost nothing of German history of that time, so feel free to shoot me down. Could it have had anything to do with
  1. a common language?
  2. Bismarck having imposed it by force, suppressing any opposition?
1 is the killer, imo. If the euro is to work, then, since the economic safety valves of floating exchange-rates and individual interest-rates are not available, there must be migration from slump areas to boom areas if vicious circles of slump in the former and boom in the latter are not to get out of hand. But the lack of a common language militates against such migration.

Can you, for example, see unemployed Greeks migrating en masse to Finland for jobs? One or two, sure. I saw a recent survey suggesting that inter-country movement in the EU was only 3% of inter-state movement in the USA (and it's less now than it was thirty or forty years ago). And that's why a single currency in the US works, but in the EU won't.

I saw a reference to Sir Christopher Meyer, US Ambassador to UK, indicating that the euro was almost irrelevant to US companies seeking to invest in Europe. "Factors such as a common language, culture and a more flexible market were far more important" (The Business, 9 June 2002 - can't find it on the Web, I'm afraid).

As regards 2, look at Yugoslavia for an example of how compulsion can keep disparate peoples together, but only for a while; release the force and it all flies apart. And nobody's asked the people of Europe whether they want to be joined in a EU. (Britain, 1973: "remain in the Common Market?"; France & Denmark: "join the euro?" - and France only just said yes, Denmark No; Ireland: "is Nice OK?" - No).

All the pressure for integration comes from hubristic, egotistic, bureaucrato-maniacal politicians motivated to a greater or lesser degree by anti-USA-ism. But this pressure is lessening, I think. Schroeder is less keen on the EU than Kohl was (specially when he's got an election to win - or more probably lose), Chirac than Mitterand. Both know that knocking the EU ups them in the popularity stakes, but neither will (publically) draw the obvious conclusion: "The EU is unpopular. Let's call a halt to further integrationism till people catch up." (An alternative would be: "The EU is unpopular. Let's dismantle it.")

I notice, incidentally, that I'm in good (or at least august) company in predicting the failure of the euro: Sir Alan Walters, economic guru to Margaret Thatcher, recently made the same prediction, and with the same timescale (5 years, though, since I made my prediction a year earlier than he did, my 5 years terminates a year before his). Like or loath his economics, his predicting track-record is not unimpressive.

I make another prediction: the much-vaunted expansion eastwards of the EU will not occur. And it won't be (entirely) Ireland's responsibility, although I hope that the Irish will raise two fingers to the politicians, who simply can't take No for an answer, and overwhelmingly vote No again!

I've wandered off the point, as usual: how does my answer score?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 10:10 AM

My answer here in five years.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 10:51 AM

The alligator vote favours the Euro.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 12:41 AM

NO!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 04:33 AM

Not if the euro concerned is Macropus Robustus, the euro or common rock wallaby. It lives in very uncomfortable places.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 04:36 AM

From what I've seen so far, maybe the Euro should join the pound. It's much healthier.
Then, instead of Britain being ruled by Brussels, King Tony would rule Europe... Bad idea, scratch that one

No! let's keep the pound separate.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST,John from Hull
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 08:30 AM

Hello.,I think no way we should use that foreign money,if they cant be bothered to vote for us in the European song contest,then why should we use there silly money?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 08:39 AM

its probably a big rip off anyway, i bet iff we get the euro here they will round all the prices up.john


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: mooman
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 08:43 AM

You are most welcome UK and we will welcome you wholeheartedly.

Britain ruled from Brussels? No...I don't think so now or in the future Nigel!

moo (in Brussels and a very happy user of Euros as a frequent European traveller but not working for any of the European institutions)


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 09:49 AM

Those of us who are of the more mature persuasion will remember the fiasco in 1971 when the UK went decimal, when everything went up in price virtually overnight. I now hear tales of inflation up to 40% on some items in Greece since they joined the common currency. As GUEST John said above, all it will mean is another increase in the cost of living. Also don't let us forget the VAT exceptions which we enjoy at present which we will certainly lose if we join, kids clothes [I think that still applies], and food, VAT on food would be a killer, for some people food is over 65% of their weekly income.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: mooman
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 10:27 AM

Swings and roundabouts Giok!

Beer is 6% here as it is classed as a "daily necessity"! (and very good it is too - so I'm told)

In Belgium there was very little price increase as a result of the Euro with some cash registers coverting to three decimal places to try to reassure customers.

All the best

moo


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 07:46 PM

Brussels had a far far better Eurovision song anyway...

The main thing that would tend to incline me against the euro is when I listen to the people who are in favour of joining; and the main thing that would tend to incline me to support joining is when I listen to the people who are against it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 07:01 AM

Very deep Kevin! ¦¬]....Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 03:07 PM

The news that there will be a (:uro referendum is a diversion from the very real and enormous - for the UK at least - changes that could result in a Constitutional Treaty for all of Europe being endorsed in the UK by referendum.

If passed -then the EU would begin to do it's thing unimpeded by the naysayers, orif rejected then the rest of the EU would get on with their Federal program - btw this was squished by Bush and his friends in the UK Tories not excluded -.

It looked like a win win situation for the antiEU lobby until last week when oppositiona and backbenchers began asking irritating questions like - where are the WMDs?

The currency is but a very small part of this Global realignment and the US is learning the bitter lessons that Rome once had to; that you can't make people 'free' if they don't want that, you can't force your reality on them while stealing their country - the UK knows all about that one see Ireland for more data - , and you are simply wasting your time thinking superior technology wins every battle - see Adolp Hitler or Nalpolean for more data.

So while in the USA the Repulicons are chanting 'Hail Seizer' the Labor lobby in the UK sing 'Jail the seizers'


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST,adam
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 08:50 AM

hi, i was wandering if anyone could advise me on any websites that will help me understand the financial arguments for and against the uk adopting the euro

thanks


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 09:23 AM

yes even if its only to upset all the old farts at the tory conference. whatever they want for the country is bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 02:46 AM

I don't think that adoption of the Euro in the UK is inevitable. And while I doubt that it would be to my personal benefit [Pensions--not prices-- tend to be rounded down rather than up!], I do think that it would benefit the people in the long run. It would encourage European integration for a start [and by geography and ancestry Brits ARE European], and would harmonise monetary affairs and facilitate trade. I hope the people vote "yes". Britain is an offshore European island. We should accept that, and cease the harking back to the days of Empire. They are in the past, and a good thing too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:07 AM

Oh please, do it and join the €!
I still remeber the days when you lost changing your money at the border (in 1969: five borders and four currencies on one single day!); but now I can visit a lot of European countries and can exactly compare the prices in a foreign land.
How would I have appreciated the € in Hull this year!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: burntstump
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:15 AM

Can anyone explain why the € to £ exchangr rate is so low, I am sure the whole thing is being manipulated to get the UK to join the €.

I travel to Spain quite a lot on business and the prices have soared since the introduction of the Euro.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 03:55 AM

In questions of inflation I never trust personal experiences and anecdotes. People tend to note the high increases and to forget the decreases. The statistics hvae been sampled by the same process before and after the Euro and there was no net increase. The years before and after looked very similar.

The bias in noticing in particular the increases comes from some highly visible increases which are explained easily. For instance restaurant prices have gone up visibly: All restaurants had to change the printed menues from Mark to Euro. So none of them did any price increase in the last two years before the Euro and all of them waited until the day of the introduction. Doing it twice would have meant double costs. The same is valid for instance for our hairdressers. They made the routine increase coincidental with the introduction of the Euro.

Those prices like in the supermarkets we do not usually recollect because they change weekly, did not go up or even did go down.

It is a bias in perception, nothing else.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: burntstump
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 03:59 AM

Is it bias that a cup of coffee went from 100 pesetas to 1€ an increase of 40%?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:46 AM

Think on this - we have recently had a period of rampant house price inflation. The Government's response has been to increase the interest rate to try to slow the market down (very sensible, up to a point) and all the signs indicate that it is working. One criterion for entry into the Euro is that we need parity of interest rates with the eurozone, in other words, our interest rate should be reduced to two point something.

My question would be, what would house price inflation be like now, if we did have an interest rate of two point something?

And if we do join the Euro and suffer a similar bout of house price inflation, what would we be able to do to quell it?

Do we really want our mortgage rate to be controlled by Brussels?

Terry


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:36 PM

No, Non , Nein - never - there's not one of those countries you could count on for support in a hard time.
They're all takers takers takers - leave 'em to it.
Cassius Clay (as he was) said " If you put a load of different animals in a cage - after a day or two - only one will be left ".
In this case - I fear the German would emerge triumphant.
so it will come to pass.
Leave 'em to it !!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:49 PM

Yes, the UK should join Euro and Europe should use one currency.

The U.S. should start using Canadian currency because its so much prettier.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:15 PM

In that case the Europeans should use British money, because it's extremely beautiful - those wonderful chunky pound and 2 pound coins you have, with the words stamped into their rims and Scots thistles, heraldry etc, the wonderful notes - the Euro is plastic monopoly money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:18 AM

Is it bias that a cup of coffee went from 100 pesetas to 1€ an increase of 40%? (burntstump)

No, burntstump, though any single example may be correct, the bias in general comes from selectively recollecting outrageous examples of increases and selectively forgetting instances of decreases. But you could tell that from my post, couldn't you?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST,Ferdinand
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 11:08 PM

Sorry to say igno
rance.The Euro is a good invention.   Ferdinand


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: *Laura*
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 05:47 PM

but pounds are so purty!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 05:57 PM

So why do most German folk I know say they wish they'd never voted to join it? And my Greek friend Christiana says prices have more than doubled since Greece joined.

We cannot have a common currency until we have a common interest rate and a common minimum living wage.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: MudGuard
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 05:59 PM

Hm - my dictionary can't translate "purty". What does it mean?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: JennyO
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:16 PM

Mudguard - "pretty" with a Southern accent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:09 AM

Among many other benefits, joining the Euro would remove the current drain on holiday funds caused by greedy bankers grabbing 15% going in and coming out. So YES!!!

Sovereignty is another issue, and we should be able to indicate our feelings on that one to the government, if we shout very loudly about vanishing votes.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: MudGuard
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:46 AM

Thanks, JennyO (how should a non-native speaker know such things ...)

Don, you mention sovereignty - is the sovereign still used as a coin? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:52 AM

Hi Don - d'accord! Eurogatherings in the UK would be less expensive for us continentals.

Liz - that's the way of prices: they always increase. Some dealers took the chance to increase their prices more than usual; others waited till they had to change their menus to € and so avoided additional printing costs. Others changed their prices in the government ratio between mark and €.
Now guess who lost customers, and who gained?.

All in all: A common currency WILL lead to a common economy system, not immediately, but by and by. And as I said in a post some years ago: The costs of a common currency system are cheaper than the next paneuropean war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Terry K
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 09:20 AM

"greedy bankers grabbing 15% going in and coming out"

- it's the careless use of throwaway lines like this that cause impartial observers to believe it might be true, rather than just the prejudiced shite it really is.

A partially trained monkey could find a better deal than 15% each way, so I suggest you either get your facts straight or stop using unlicensed rip-off merchants to change your money.

best regards, Terry


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 08:04 PM

Do you work for a bank then Terry?

There's always one who's so focussed on examining the tree, that he's unaware he has walked into a wood.

The same partially trained monkey could also assist you by pointing out that the percentage isn't the point. It's the fact that they grab it in both directions, and you lose twice.

regards back at ya
Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Terry K
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:27 PM

No, I don't work for a bank, nor do I necessarily have very much going for them. But I have heard tedious rhetoric like that trotted out ad nauseam, and am heartily sick of it. So the percentage doesn't matter? So why exaggerate to try to make a non-point? Why not use a more likely figure - less effective is it?

I'd like to introduce to you the concept of people doing work and getting paid for it. Someone changes your money, he gets paid for it. Someone else changes the same money, he gets paid for it. Like if a plumber installs a bathroom for you, he may want paying again when he removes it some time later.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: GUEST,a normal person
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:25 AM

get a life, ringer wolfgang...


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:46 AM

All of the large super markets in the north of Ireland take the Euro, as do most of the small shops, it is all money,


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 05:57 AM

If you plan taking another trip abroad in the foreseeable future you might do better to stick the unused euros in a drawer somewhere.

I still think it'd go a down a lot better here if it was referred to as "the (euro)Quid". I suspect we'll end up calling it that anyway. Or (euro)Dollar maybe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ringer
Date: 21 May 10 - 05:54 AM

Are you still here, Wolfgang?

I admit that my 5-year prediction timescale was incorrect. But the euro has only just hit its first "bad time". What odds do you offer that it will survive the next 5 years?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ringer
Date: 31 May 10 - 03:11 AM

Bump

Are you still here, Wolfgang?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:39 PM

I'm still here, but only occasionally and even then mostly reading and not writing. So I didn't see your older post.

I'm convinced it'll be with us in five years as well, though with, I hope, changed rules. The odds for that opinion? 75% probability I'll be right, 25% I'll be wrong.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Ringer
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:47 AM

Thanks, Wolfgang.

Let's come back in 5 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:44 AM

They would be foolish to do it. It is already destroying the Greek economy. It could imperil theirs. There is no advantage to it for the UK.

The problem is that the International Economy is controlled by the World Bank and the IMF.
This centralization of control means that the UK could suffer the same fate as Greece.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should UK join the Euro ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:47 AM

We would certainly need a much more stable situation before tying our currency to an organisation which has so many lame ducks to support.

Don T.


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