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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Wolfgang Date: 21 Jun 01 - 12:52 PM On that website they state clearly that they collect music that I (and other contributors) consider interesting to the atheist point of view. It was my fault to write just 'atheist music' without explaining more. But there are atheist songs on that list and you surely don't want to make me believe, Alex, that within 9 minutes you have scanned the whole list including the link to an outside source to find that there are no atheist songs on that list and been able to post a long response. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: mousethief Date: 21 Jun 01 - 12:59 PM What do you want, Wolfgang? If there really is Atheist music, is it my duty to sift through a whole page of "music interesting to an atheist viewpoint" to find it? If it's there, show it to us. Making us sift for it like diamonds in a sandpile is a bit much. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Wolfgang Date: 21 Jun 01 - 01:05 PM you can't bait me, Alex, maybe at another thread. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Don Firth Date: 21 Jun 01 - 01:11 PM I think all of this pretty well shows that in the same way that most people (including those who regard themselves as Christians) don't have a clue as to what Christianity is all about, they (including atheists) don't have a foggy about atheism either. As far as I can tell, there seem to be two kinds of atheists: those who are rabidly anti-religious, and those who counldn't care less about religion in general. Those who don't care probably don't write songs about religion. Therefore, I think you would be hard-pressed to find a truly atheist song. Don Firth
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: mousethief Date: 21 Jun 01 - 01:14 PM I'm not interested in baiting you, Wolfgang (at least in this thread). But we've got an exchange going like this:
M: Can believers sing atheist songs? Thus your "bait me" comment is something of a non-sequitur. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jun 01 - 01:20 PM LOL! My parents were this kind of atheist when I was a kid: Moderately anti-religious. Mildly contemptuous of people who were religious. Most of the time not thinking much about it. Not having much of a clue about either religion or atheism, in fact. Since then, my mother has become more sort of mystical, and my father still basically doesn't think about it. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: mousethief Date: 21 Jun 01 - 01:47 PM LH, sounds like my folks, except the mystical mom. They both still basically don't think about it. But they seem to have accepted the fact that I became a believer, and the caustic comments have all but died out on that front. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jun 01 - 02:03 PM Likewise, although I am hard to direct caustic comments at...because I do not belong to any specific church or religion...I accept the good points in all of them...and avoid the fanatics who insist their way is the ONLY way. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: MMario Date: 21 Jun 01 - 02:09 PM I always thought it was hard to direct caustic comments at LH because of the stunned looks and the trembling lower lip... |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jun 01 - 02:15 PM Ha! Ha! Mario, you sly bastard....that didn't stop my erstwhile school companions, I can assure you. I remember school the way someone else might remember hell, but it did have its good moments too. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Mr Red Date: 21 Jun 01 - 02:46 PM If a Devout Athiest can sing Amazing Grace (& I do) then the answer in this computer has to be YES. The problem I have is finding an Athiestic song that holds some merit It is in human nature to say "Yes" more readilly than "No" so any song that is negative may very well be unappealing to most listeners. If most people don't like it then it is not likely to be sung. well this is what I believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: M.Ted Date: 21 Jun 01 - 03:10 PM "Stand-up for Judas" is a strange song--if you trim off the last verse (which is not about Jesus or Judas anyway) and soft sell the chorus, it can be read in two antithetical ways--if you are a spiritualist, Jesus seems right, if you are a materialist, Judas seems right--Too bad Leon ruined his own song by pasting on a verse that leads us toward what he thinks at the end, rather than leaving us to consider a rather important paradox-- |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: GUEST Date: 21 Jun 01 - 04:20 PM Somebody suggested I delete this message. I have mixed feelings about it, but I finally decided it had no value and it would be better to delete it. I couldn't see much logic in it - just an excuse to use some crude four-letter sexual references and link them to the Bible. Guest, If you'd like to give me a reason why I should re-post this message and identify you by name and e-mail address, send me an e-mail. You can find my address in Mudcat Resources. If anybody else wants a copy of the message, let me know. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: M.Ted Date: 21 Jun 01 - 06:25 PM Couldn't even be bother to make up a name to attach to your filthy rantings, GUEST? Or were you afraid you'd be criticized for lifting your text from one of those old American Nazi Party Flyers on pornography in the Bible that George Lincoln Rockwell and Company used to send out?
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Amos Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:54 PM Wow! This has to be a milestone!!! I have NEVER known Joe Offer to delete a message uninvited by the author before. Mark the date -- a NEW LOW for the Sewer Profundo crowd, and probably loss of a night's sleep for Joe, but I expect a brave and worthy step in any case, although how would I know? A |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:41 PM I'm a very active Catholic, and I can't say I have any problem with any of the songs listed. "Stand Up for Judas" gives me something to think about, and I don't find it offensive. I learned "Plastic Jesus" and "Vatican Rag" and Has Anybody Seen J.C. at a Catholic seminary when I was a student there in the 1960's - I suspect all three of these songs were written by Christians of the liberal persuasion, which is where I fit in the spectrum. If it were a song that expressed hatred for believers, that might be something I'd find offensive. I think most atheists just don't believe in God - they're usually a lot more tolerant of believers, than believers are of them. I gotta say there's one "atheist" think that has found popularity that bugs me - it's that walking fish with the word "Darwin" in it. It's a parody of the popular Christian fish symbol. I suppose it's kind of funny, but it give the incorrect implication that Christians don't believe in evolution. It's true that some Christians don't believe in evolution, but most Christians I know believe that God created and is still creating the world through the wonderful processes of nature, including the process of evolution. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: mousethief Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:23 PM I saw one of those fish things that I really want to get. It had the familiar fish outline, and inside it it said, "N'Chips" Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jun 01 - 11:29 PM Right on, Joe! How anyone can think evolution and spiritual beliefs are mutually exclusive is beyond me. Most of the spiritual sources I've studied assert that evolution happens on all levels of reality...physical, genetic, emotional, astral, soul level, and even on the level of the divine itself. No surprise to me. As above, so below. The main difference is that reductionists think it's simply a case of natural selection, whereas spiritual teachings indicate that it is considerably more than that...i.e. a purposeful intention on a conscious level to strive for a higher condition and expression of life. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Bill D Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:32 AM well, I'll argue (friendly discussion?) against many religious concepts.....but there just ain't NO doubt, religion IS good for creating songs!...I'll sing with you, from "Ave Maria" to "Standing in the Need of Prayer", 'cause I can't even imagine it making any sense to write Atheist music ....I can even appreciate the moods, needs, cares and concerns that went into gospel and other religious songs.....they were made by people who CARED and felt and loved. I do NOT make fun of honest, deeply felt religious music, (though there IS some that is little more than bad commercials for some TV preachers). (funny...at places like the Getaway, we almost never debate these things, we just sing the songs and enjoy each other)
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: toadfrog Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:33 AM I guess "atheist song" is kind of a peculiar concept, like the "conservative song," on that other thread. There is no feeling in atheism per se; you really can't make a good song about it. The feeling is in the hostility toward human institutions religions may be associated with. And there are lots of blasphemous song, blasphemy being part of the contrarian nature of Man. I think "The Preacher and the Slave" is the closest thing to an atheist song I've ever heard. Maybe there could be a song called "Unsurprising Grace" or "Completely boring and commonplace Grace"? Another thought - Perry Como used to sing "Every time I hear a newborn baby cry Or touch a leaf, or see the sky, Then I know why - I believe! An atheist could easily make up a song structured like that, pointing out all the yucky phenomena that cast doubt on the idea of a just & omnipotent God. |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Bill D Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:38 AM and then I went and read Sourdoughs post about singing gospel and wondered why I can make the point that well |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Bill D Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:39 AM CAN'T make the post |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: GUEST,Rob Date: 22 Jun 01 - 01:36 AM I believe there is at least one truly athiest song. "Spirit in the Sky" (Norman Greenbaum?) It seems very sarcastic and tongue-in-cheek. Strange thing is. A christian could sing every word of it, and mean it. It is a very well-written song. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE QUIET JOYS OF BROTHERHOOD^^ From: Jeri Date: 22 Jun 01 - 02:20 AM While a few folks get it, a large number seem to be missing the point entirely. I personally don't have the slightest bit of interest in singing songs about things I don't believe in, or in singing songs trying to illustrate why something doesn't exist. It sounds like an incredibly dumb idea to me. I prefer songs about things I do believe in. Songs about how beautiful the earth is, or how amazingly compassionate and loving people can be when they stop trying to prove they're better than other people. Let's quit screwing around with what atheists don't believe in. Lets find songs about what we do believe in. I believe people have a spark of Something More in them. I also think people can destroy that spark. THE QUIET JOYS OF BROTHERHOOD (Richard Farina) As gentle tides go rolling by Along the salt sea strand The colors blend and roll as one Together in the sand And often do the winds entwine To send the distant call The quiet joys of brotherhood And love is lord of all The oat and wheat together rise Along the common ground The mare and stallion light and dark Have thunder in their sound The rainbow sign, the blended flower Still have my heart enthralled The quiet joys of brotherhood And love is lord of all But man has come to plow the tide The oak lies on the ground I hear their fires in the fields They drive the stallion down The roses bleed, but light and dark The winds do seldom call The running sands recall the time When love was lord of all From the singing of Sandy Denny on 'Sandy'. JC
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Jun 01 - 04:32 AM Yeah, but that's the thing, Jeri - Atheist "religion" is not to have a religion, so it's kind of a contradiction of terms to have songs about something that isn't. However, atheists have ethics and emotions, and humanistic interests - but none of those things are exclusively atheist. Songs that are critical about religion aren't atheist, because they aren't about atheism. So, I think we end up with the fact that there just aren't atheist songs. Atheists sings lots of songs about lots of stuff, but not about atheism. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: IanC Date: 22 Jun 01 - 04:51 AM Hey, Little Hawk Which one of us are you suggesting can remember hell?
;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Wolfgang Date: 22 Jun 01 - 05:44 AM Amos, it's not the first time Joe has cleared an entry. He does it very seldom and I think he does it just right, but he has done it before. (click for an earlier example) Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: SDShad Date: 22 Jun 01 - 09:42 AM Well, I don't think I can necessarily say "yes" any better than those who already have, but here goes my take anyway, as brief as I can muster: As a believer, I can sing any music that celebrates the positive or that positively calls warning of negative influences in society. I can't and won't sing music, be it from Christians, atheists, Cargo Culters, or Scientologists, or whatever have you, that excludes, belittles, dehumanizes, or demonizes other people and their sincere beliefs. Many of the positive things that atheists of good will and heart may wish to celebrate in song are things that religioius believers of good will and heart can celebrate too, and join in the song: the power of the human will, the necessity of freedom, the inherent dignity of being human. And if nothing else, this thread has been well worth it for Little Hawk's interesting and kinetic posting, those of a man "harpooned by his own flippin' thread." :-) What an unexpected image it was to be asked to "observe [this thread] as it crawls forth, jibbering demonically...." I like yer style, mister.
And what rough post, its timestamp come round at last, Chris |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Wolfgang Date: 22 Jun 01 - 11:26 AM Only remembered for what we have done And the thread around these lyrics is also worth reading. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Jeri Date: 22 Jun 01 - 11:51 AM SDShad/Chris - I think you said what I wanted to say a lot clearer than I did. You can't really write songs about things you don't believe are there. Well, you can, but it would have to be a humorous song, I think.
These Would Be A Few Of My Favorite Things If I Thought They Existed I could write a serious song if I had time, but I have a feeling it would piss off a lot more religious folks than the religious songs piss off the atheists. Maybe I'm just too paranoid. We all sing songs about things we believe in. The fact that I can sing songs about my beliefs and have folks from all religions join in because those beliefs are general is not a bad thing, eh? I'm signing off shortly to go to Old Songs Festival. Love to you all. May you all sing songs that bring joy to yourself and others. No matter what our beliefs are, we're all here on this earth now, and it's our job to make it a better place. Just my opinion, but I think some folks may agree.
When our eyes do see the plight
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: M.Ted Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:14 PM I think that, before you decide if there are atheist songs, or not, you have to consider the different things that "atheist"can mean-- "Atheism" actually pre-existed Christianity, Anaxagoras was called an atheist, because he believed the sun was a rock, rather than a divine being, Theodorus was exiled because he did not believe in anything divine, and of course, old Socrates got into a lot of trouble because he didn't believe in the State Gods--More recently, perhaps in the spirit of Theodorus, Spinoza believed that God was the total of everything, and, since there was no separate, "divine being" in his philosophy, he was denounced as an atheist, an odd situation for a person who was also called"The God-Intoxicated Man"-- Mostly, when people talk about atheism, they tend to mean materialism, which is to say the idea that everything can be explained mechanically, or at least in terms of concrete things, and needs related to those things-- I think it is important to remember that atheism is not fundamentally anti-religious or anti-Christian (though Communists, who embraced Engels dialectical materials certainly were anti-christian)--in fact, it is possible to point out that atheism is a fundamental element in Christian thought, if you consider that it refutes superstition, emperor gods, and idolatry-- Quite a lot of material there for songs, if you asked me--
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Ebbie Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:42 PM You can trust the moon to move the mighty oceans You can trust the sun to shine upon the land You take the little that you know and you do the best you can And you leave the rest to the quiet faith of man. Bill Staines |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 01:47 PM Man, oh, man! This thread gets around to some wonderful stuff. Beautiful Richard Farina lyric. Thanks, Jeri. Thanks also for the Bill Staines quote, Ebbie. M.Ted - Yeah! One man's atheist is another man's holy mystic. I personally think that Spinoza had it right...God is the total of everything. Of course the Church denounced him as an atheist...he was threatening their monopoly on God and worldly power! If everything is holy how can you terrorize and control the population any longer and fight religious wars and slaughter the heathen? Did Anaxagoras believe that the sun was a rock, and therefore not a diving being? Odd. Why couldn't it be a rock and ALSO a divine being? :-) Answer me that! It's sure amusing to think that some, based on my beliefs, would apparently consider me an atheist, while others would consider me quite the opposite. Hilarious! We've got material for a thousand songs here. - LH
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Amos Date: 22 Jun 01 - 02:15 PM Atheism maintains that there is no single Divine Identity which governs the whole spectrum of existence. Such a philosophical position is perfectly reasonable, especially in reaction against the anthropomorphic Sesame Street types who imagine some well-muscled white male sitting on a cloud as a handy way to come to terms with infinity and spirituality. Especially an old bearded white guy who not only sees everything in the universe but is ALSO intensely interested in your personal sexual pecadilloes. Talk about untenable scenarios!!! SOME atheists, of course, are also pure materialists who entertain the equally ridiculous extreme that all spiritual and creative phenomena are entirely attributed to accidents of intersection between electronic fields, atoms, molecules, and mass. Oy!! The sheer mathematical impossibility (compared to the number of changes that woulkd be required to culminate in our full spectrum of operational species just hereabouts in spaace and time) is mindboggling -- probably something on the order of winning the Venusian Lottery telepathically!! Oh, I know, someone is going to pop up and remind me that they DID win the Venusian Lottery telepathically. Sorry!! :>) But to speak to the topic of this thread, by definition a believer can sing anything he wishes to. This is a silly question -- it is like asking if Richard Burton could act the role of a 15th Century Dane while still not believing he was, himself, Danish. Dohhh!!! The very question implies a very ungenerous impression of the capabilities of the human spirit indeed. A |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 02:17 PM Sorry, "divine" being, not "diving" being. Sheesh. If the sun was a diving being, we would be in big trouble...the Pacific just ain't big enough for that, let alone the Atlantic. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: SDShad Date: 22 Jun 01 - 02:29 PM So if that other divine being were also a diving being, would He be the graceful, athletic type of diver, or the tubby cannonballer type? nonsensicalShad |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: M.Ted Date: 22 Jun 01 - 02:47 PM LH--I am not sure what the Church thought of Baruch Spinoza, a rabinical student, he was banned from the synagogue for his ideas--also he was one of the early advocates of free thought and free speech-- Amos, I am not sure if your definition, as per the one divine entity, is a good one, since it would mean that atheism would be consistant with dualism--this seems like a trifling bit of nitpickiness, except that it can be argued that Thomism, which is a fundamental element in modern Catholicism(and like it or not, you Lutherans, modern Christianity) , hinges on the dualistic notion of matter and form--I'll give the atheists Spinoza and Pantheism, materialism, and a chunk of Socratic thought, but if we hand over Aristotle and St. Thomas Aquinas, then, for all intents and purposes, Christianity is Atheism!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Amos Date: 22 Jun 01 - 04:49 PM I'm sorry but the logic here is a bit tortuous, and possibly specious. Atheism by etymological decomposition is a statement of "No God" as a belief. It does not equate except in some local variants as a belief of "no spiritualness" nor one of "no infinity". At least if we accept Theos as the Greek root tyo be translated into "God". If instead you translate it as "godhood", "godliness", or "divinity as a quality of advanced spirituality" then atheism approaches materialism asymptotically. But I was using the usual American sense of "single-identitiy infinitude of spirit", or whatever phrase you wish to put on it. If you believe that all spirituality, for example, is a composite hologram of interactions from the trillions to the nth power of individual spiritual viewpoints that participate in the universe, running bodies or not, on Earth or elsewhere, highly capable or lower than stones and completely overwhelmed, then you can be an atheist and a devout spiritualist, explain all mystic and spiritualistic and miraculous phenomena, and still enjoy physics 101 and quantum mechanics and Darwinian theory PLUS you get to take your own personal responsibility for your code of conduct and sexual activity as a free bonus!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Amos Date: 22 Jun 01 - 04:49 PM I'm sorry but the logic here is a bit tortuous, and possibly specious. Atheism by etymological decomposition is a statement of "No God" as a belief. It does not equate except in some local variants as a belief of "no spiritualness" nor one of "no infinity". At least if we accept Theos as the Greek root tyo be translated into "God". If instead you translate it as "godhood", "godliness", or "divinity as a quality of advanced spirituality" then atheism approaches materialism asymptotically. But I was using the usual American sense of "single-identitiy infinitude of spirit", or whatever phrase you wish to put on it. If you believe that all spirituality, for example, is a composite hologram of interactions from the trillions to the nth power of individual spiritual viewpoints that participate in the universe, running bodies or not, on Earth or elsewhere, highly capable or lower than stones and completely overwhelmed, then you can be an atheist and a devout spiritualist, explain all mystic and spiritualistic and miraculous phenomena, and still enjoy physics 101 and quantum mechanics and Darwinian theory PLUS you get to take your own personal responsibility for your code of conduct and sexual activity as a free bonus!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: mousethief Date: 22 Jun 01 - 04:51 PM Amos, can you say that WITHOUT run-on sentences? I couldn't follow you, wherever it was you went. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 05:16 PM Amos - the hamster read that last post of yours twice, ran around the cage frantically, fell on its back and started foaming at the mouth, then lapsed into unconsciousness. I hold you responsible. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Matt_R Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:05 PM Ah yes, Spinoza. Wasn't he the guy who wrote "The Natural Inferiority of Women"? Lovely fellow. |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jun 01 - 06:22 PM You have to remember, Matt, he lived in a very different time. If you were to hunt around for men at that time who considered women as their equals, it would have been a fruitless search, I'm afraid. Therefore, to judge him simply on that basis is hardly apt, I think. Non-whites were considered naturally inferior as well at that time (by whites, that is...). And so on, and so on... I'm sure that a number of things you and I take for granted will be seen in a different light a hundred years from now. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: GUEST,Les Jones, once of Ellesmere Port now of Man Date: 23 Jun 01 - 03:50 AM Ok, someone else may have asked this question earlier but I can't be bothered to read all the stuff on this microscopic subject. Can a blue man sing the whites? BDDDB |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: M.Ted Date: 23 Jun 01 - 01:51 PM Wash your face with cold water, and sit for a few minutes, Amos--oh, and breathe through your nose! Seriously, I actually understood what you were saying, and, as I said, as far as I am concerned, anyway, that idea that you are putting forth is a theistic rather than atheistic view--when you make a "Composite Holgram" of trillions of individual spiritual viewpoints, you are creating a god-- Appologies to everyone--these discussions always make everyone's head spin-- most of the heated discussion is not from disagreement, it is from trying to figure out what someone is saying in the first place-- |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Amos Date: 23 Jun 01 - 02:21 PM Geez you guys!! What I wrote was perfectly clear to me!!! LOL!!! 1. A-theism comes from two roots meaning NO and "theos", a Greek word usually translated to mean "God". 2. The translation from the Greek is dicey because of all the cultural overload we stick on the word "god" so we should be aware that the Greeks might have had a different view of what it means. 3. So we have two branches of definition of atheism. One is just "No God" , using the usual sense of a Single Cosmic Entitiy. That's what we usually mean by an atheist. If someone posing as an atheist extended that definition to all forms of spiritual phenomena, he would be a pure materialist. 4. Using the FIRST defintion, an atheist is just soemone who rejects the One Big Being cosmology. 5. Such a person could still be devoutly spiritual. For example he could believe in individual spiritual beings who by huge numbers of creative interactions have created this particular hologram we hold to be the physical universe. 6. . The proposition for individual spiritual natures has a lot more evidence going for it than the prposition that there is a gigantic Scout Leader hidden in the wings. 7. Using such a paradigm one could use the best models of phsyics, biology and evolution while ALSO being able to account for a lot of the funny anomalies which medicine and physics often have to ignore as falling outside the framework of their models. These are usually labeled statistical anomalies, experimental artifacts or some other high-falutin' label so we will still think we are "being scientific". Hope this is clearer. As for such a hologram being a "God" that is just semiotic slap-shooting. The fundamental differences are as basic and clear as the difference between, say, "Pearl Harbor", the movie, and the actual sum total of all events centered around that part of the planet in real time on the day of the actual bombing. A |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Lin in Kansas Date: 23 Jun 01 - 04:21 PM Amos--!!!!! That is exceptionally concise, clear, thoughtful, and well-said!!! The only term I had to look up was "slap-shooting"... Lin (and John, lurking at the other computer) |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Lin in Kansas Date: 23 Jun 01 - 04:33 PM Guest, Les Jones--Uh, Nat King Cole?? LOL! And Joe, when I applied my Darwin Fish to the window of my truck I was NOT making a statement about Christians not believing in evolution--although in the state of Kansas, I might have some basis for thinking that (at least that seemed the concensus among a FORMER school board). I simply thought it was funny, and a mildly sarcastic comment about what I perceive to be the Christian habit of proselytizing. Lin |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Amos Date: 23 Jun 01 - 04:38 PM Thanks, Lin!! I feel much better!! I meant slap-shooting to be the hockey equivalent of shooting from the hip. Anyway, I'm glad to hear I can still communicate!!! Those damned gerbils had me worried! :>) A |
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Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs? From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Jun 01 - 04:58 PM Hamsters! I tried to get the gerbils to read it and they point blank refused to... Okay...I get your drift. The way I see it is...there is no gigantic Scout Leader hidden in the wings. God isn't separate from anything else, so how can God hide in the wings? But everything is spiritual. Living beings have different levels of awareness...conscious, subconscious, dream state, automatic body functions, cell functions, nerve systems, immune defenses, superconscious, etc.... What I term "God" is the highest level of purposeful consciousness possible in each being. It is within each being, but may not be expressing itself clearly if it is layered over by lower levels of consciousness. In fact it may not appear to ever be expressing itself at all. That doesn't mean it isn't there, waiting to express itself...if the other levels would shut up, step aside, and let it. Self-realization involves disciplining and calming the lower levels of consciousness so that the God-self can be activated. Which is danged hard to do when you're yakking on Mudcat about all kinds of contentious and extraordinary stuff! EEEEEEYYYAAAAAAAGHHHHH!!! I'm gonna go meditate for a bit. :-) - LH |
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