Can a believer sing Atheist songs?

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 05:45 PM

Good idea. I'll join you....bzzzzzzzzzzzztttttt.......swwssssssstttt.....nnyeeoooowwwww..... whusssssshhhhhhh.......

a

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 05:55 PM

I believe that Carl Sagan once said something to the effect that "Perhaps intelligent life is the the Cosmos' way of knowing itself. Can it be that God is just now being born?"

Just a thought. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 06:03 PM

It's OK, Lin. I can handle it....just don't go puttin' one of them there Darwinfish on my car. ;-)
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 06:39 PM

Depending on what you mean by a "being(a a guy with a pointy hat and glasses, or a woman with a magic wand, for instance)", Amos, according to your definition Christianity, at least post-St. Thomas Acquinas, is atheistic--

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 06:51 PM

I'm sorry, M. ted, but I don't follow the argument -- the whole of modern Christianity asserts a monotheistic Godhead which took a conscious role in affairs on planet Earth, including "having a Son", whatever that means to an infinite being, and "sending him" (ditto) "down" to represent "him" in the affairs of human beings. This is about the extreme of theism, unless you are making a point too subtle for me to grasp. Especially when you take into account all the third-person-male-singular personification with which we have lambasted our spawn into acceptable conduct over the centuries. How theistic could it get?

A

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 07:27 PM

I promise, Joe. But if I could find a fish like Alex was talking about (with "NChips" inside), my truck would be wearin' another one. LOL!

This is a lot of interesting and well-thought-out argument, but ya know, I kinda doubt that anyone is going to change their opinion because of anything somebody else has said here. The very nature of the subject is directed at core beliefs, and those beliefs are seldom changed through discussion.

So--everybody have fun and play nice...I'm outta here. :>)

Lin

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From:
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 07:35 PM

Sorry, I don't believe atheists exist. They're a myth.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Jeep man
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 08:04 PM

PLASTIC JESUS, sounded pretty good when Luke sang it just after his mother died,(Cool Hand Luke.

I like it and I'm an atheist,(Swear to God). Jeep

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 01:18 AM

Amos,

I think my point may be a little more in the subtle range-

Fairly obvious from your posts that you aren't familiar with, say, the writings of St. Thomas Acquinas, or of Aristotle's concepts relating to form and matter--not that you necessarily should, but, if you are going to try to explain what you believe, and especially to relate it to Christian ideas, then these guys should be on your must read list-- (Massive amounts of text were here but have been trashed) Well, I was going to try and explain 2000 odd years of philosphy briefly, which turns out to be impossible, so I will just say that if you were to look into real Christian thought, and not the pablum that is cranked out by the bushel for consumption by people who hope that an hour in church will offset all their failings as human beings--you would really be surprised to find out that your ideas don't fall far from the tree--

Don't misunderstand me, I am not selling anything--just pointing out that, for those few (very, very, few, it turns out) who care to think about such things, these ideas have been worked over by the great philosophers, and make for fairly interesting reading, reflection, and discussion--

The discussions moved beyond the business of a guy on a throne with a pointy hat and that sort of thing a really long time ago (thousand years, at least) and onto concepts, like form and matter, and first cause, with diversions into being and nothingness etc.

Anyway, I my point all along has been that when you step beyond materialism and allow for spiritual areas, you begin to enter the Christian realms--

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:13 AM

Believers fail to realized that they know little about religion. It's like being in a forest. You can learn all about the trees in that forest there, but you have to get out of it to learn about forests. If you stay in a particular religion, you have no rational postulates, just 'divine' dictums, and almost all debate involves circular arguments, and when that fails they just say that 'faith' is the final answer to every question, but it's really just another baseless postulate.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:51 PM

No arguements on that, GUEST--strangest thing in the world to talk with priest and ministers candidly about what they believe and then listen to the way they carry on with their "flocks". I think that it is unfortunate indeed that very few religious leaders dare to talk honestly about what they believe--

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:37 PM

I dunno. Maybe it's because I have a theology degree, but I've heard lots of candid talk from clergy of all faiths. The clergy are more than willing to talk with those who understand the nuances and are willing to listen. Many people want a once-a-week feelgood session and easy answers to complex issues, and don't want to be bothered with being challenged by their religion.
We have 1,500 families in our Catholic parish. I'd say that we have several hundred people who are willing to ask questions and think their own thoughts, and they're truly impressive people. Then we have a vast majority of normal people who are good folks, but not moral or mental giants. Then we have a small number of people who are bound up in superstition, prejudice, and moral rigidity - unfortunately, those are the people that outsiders notice and refer to as "believers."
Give us religious people a break, hey? We're not the mindless robots some people seem to think we are.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: SDShad
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:36 AM

Joe, you said it much better than I coulda. There's really nothing in GUEST's description of believers that comes close to describing my spiritual life.

And, I, uhm had a bunch of other stuff to add on how I really feel towards all those hard, exclusivist, and negative passages in Christian scripture which non-Christians understandably view with a cautious eye, but I typed it all up and accidentally deleted the whole thing when I was making the last revisions on it, so I'll just post the short version:

No exclusivism for me, thanks.

Chris

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:56 AM

Well, in fact I have read both Aquinas and Aristotle, M.T., although certainly not in toto, and not for thirty years or more! :>) It's no problem to me if the deeper students of Christianity want to wind their way into different defintions of their own terms; but it would be nice if they'd get that third person singular male pronoun out of their semiotic mesh. It makes it too easy to associate the deep propositions with the shallow, hearing them encoded in such similar language, if ya see what I mean. I maintain that the common-use defintion of atheism does not equal, necessarily, a-spiritualism. But it is a tiring and abstract point which is not going to bear much fruit, I am afraid. I prefer to escape the tangle foot by using more baggage-feree functional descriptions. But I don't think it makes me a-religious to do so!

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 06:35 AM

Phew, where were we?
I turned my back deliberately on Christianity and any other theistic religions many years ago, but I still enjoy church services (you can't beat belting out good hymns and carols) and just keep my mouth shut during those bits that I find offensive/absurd/incredible, like the creed.
Maybe that makes me a hypocrite (and it wouldn't be the first time I've been called that!), but I see no problem with singing songs that I don't necessarily agree with. After all, how many good songs are there about murder, adultery, whaling or whatever that still get sung?
If someone is a believer (in anything), one would hope that their belief/faith or whatever it is they have would be strong enough to be able to take a bit of gentle ribbing and piss-taking.
After all, this God geezer that a lot of you believe in must have a sense of humour. Look at...insert racial stereotype/morris dancer here
Ultimately it's down to the individual. I wouldn't wish to sing a racist song because I would find it offensive, so if a Christian found an atheist song offensive I wouldn't expect him/her to sing it.
But I'd agree with Wolfgang that Only Remembered makes a superb secular hymn. It's certainly one of my favourites, and one that I'd choose for my own non-Christian funeral.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: JulieF
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 08:40 AM

I tend to think that there are no atheistic songs because being an atheist is a statement of what you don't believe - and this usually doesn't translate into song very well.

I have been an atheist scince I was about eleven but it was only in later year that I firmed up on what I do believe ie that as there was no spiritual guiding presence then we must to our best for each other. This makes me a secular humanist and I do believe that there are many hummanist songs. 'A man's a man for 'a that' for instance. However,people approach hummanism from many angles and thus many belivers may sing hummanistic songs with all their heart.

Julie

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: GUEST,SIMPLEMINDED
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:34 AM

Silly me. All I wanted to do was find Lyrics for "Theres A Hole In The Bucket" and I got sucked into this thread! I have to admit I was intrigued by the question since I have recently been wondering the opposite. Can atheists sing songs of worship to God? Do you all realize how serious you have gotten about such a simple question? I hope I remember to check back for feedback! Anyone know where I can find the complete Lyrics to "Theres A Hole In The Bucket"?

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:38 AM

I'm with simpleminded. My post that pointed out strange things in the Bible, asked straightforward questions in unmistakable language was deleted as pornographic.

Just do the next right thing (as best you can figure it out) and the God (he/she/it) business will take care of itself. Now back to important thing like songs. I'm done here.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:58 PM

I think Gervase hit the nail on the head with the term "secular hymn." "Only Remembered" fits that perfectly, as do some of the songs Bob Franke wrote. "Atheist song" gives the implication of a rejection of belief, rather than simply not having religious beliefs.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: GUEST,g
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 01:26 PM

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 03:27 PM

But of course "Only Remembered" is in Ira Sankey's collection Sacred Songs and Solos, in the section called "The Christian Life". Written by Horatius Bonar, with the tune by Ira Sankey.

It's good that with a bit of tweaking and a verse added by John Tams it's equally suitable for a believer or a non-believer. Or rather its suitable for both kinds of believer.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 03:29 PM

And here's ankther song thaat on one level is atheistr, and oin anither is anything but:

"Friday Morning" by Sydney Carter

It was on a Friday morning
That they took me from the cell,
And I saw they had a carpenter
To crucify as well.
You can blame it on to Pilate
You can blame it on the Jews,
You can blame it on the Devil,
It's God who I accuse.
It's God they ought to crucify
Instead of you and me,
I said to the carpenter
A-hanging on the tree.

You can blame it on to Adam,
You can blame it on to Eve.
You can blame it on the apple,
But that I can't believe.
It was God who made the Devil
And the Woman and the Man,
And there wouldn't be an Apple
If it wasn't in the plan.
It's God they ought to crucify
Instead of you and me,
I said to the carpenter
A-hanging on the tree.

Now Barabbas was a killer
And they let Barabbas go.
But you are being crucified
For nothing, here below.
But God is up in heaven
And he doesn't do a thing:
With a million angels watching,
And they never move a wing.
It's God they ought to crucify
Instead of you and me,
I said to the carpenter
A-hanging on the tree.

To hell with Jehovah,
To the carpenter I said,
I wish that a carpenter
Had made the world instead.
Goodbye and good luck to you,
Our ways will soon divide.
Remember me in heaven,
The man you hung beside
It's God they ought to crucify
Instead of you and me,
I said to the carpenter
A-hanging on the tree.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 04:28 PM

Sometines ambiguity is the best way to convey something. This one made McGrath think. And I want to thank him for giving it to me.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 04:34 PM

To add my 2¢ to the topic: the song is what counts, not the singer. If you don't believe in the song, as a song, then don't sing it. If you're a professional, singing what you're told to sing, for wages, then grit your teeth and do your job.

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 04:46 PM

M.T.:

when you step beyond materialism and allow for spiritual areas, you begin to enter the Christian realms--

You may enter the realms that Christians stake out for themselves, but that doesn't make it so; it is reminiscent of Cortes coming ashore and claiming the whole of North and South and Central America in the name of her Most Catholic Majesty, the Queen of Spain. The prior residents may not be amused.

As for the topic of the thread, the question is ridiculous and without meaning. One may do as one decides one may -- right up to the point where one decides otherwise.

A

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 11:56 PM

I looked at the thread title...thought "Ha! What smartass started this one?" and discovered it was me back in 2001! LOL!

Now I recall that I wrote an atheist song back in the early 70's, when I was a young and very logical-minded atheist. Its main point was: religion is a crock, there is no God, and the only thing people can rely on is their own courage, intelligence, and ability to deal with reality as best they can.

Ironical. I was once the very image of my most devoted philosophical opponents on this forum...

Man, was I lonely in those days.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 01:51 PM

You were so much older then, LH. You're younger than that now...

Subject: RE: BS - Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 03:08 PM

You bring up a good point, Amos - as a Roman Catholic, I belong to the church of the conquistadores, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and all sorts of other bloody episodes. I belong to the church of Pope Alexander VI, the father of Lucretia and Cesare Borgia. Those were Catholics who slaughtered each other in Rwanda a few years back, and Catholics in Croatia slaughtered Orthodox Serbs in World War II. I certainly can't say that Catholics in Ireland behaved themselves admirably at all times, either. It's also a church that has had abusive nuns and pedophile priests. My church has a sordid past, and I think I have to acknowledge it.

On the other hand, it's also a church where I've found a home for all of the 55 years of my life, where I've received a wonderful education and a very positive outlook on life, where I was supported by loving people in good times and bad. It's a church where I've worked 20 hours a week for most of my life. It's a church that operates most of the effective poverty and social service programs in my area.

It's a good church, and I'm proud to be a Catholic - but it is hard for me to reconcile my church's atrocities with the good I've found in it. Many people have suggested that I should leave the Catholic Church and join a church that doesn't have such a sordid past. I suppose I could, but the Catholic Church is home to me, and it has been a good home. The fact of the matter is that every organization has something sordid in its past (or its future), no matter how perfect it pretends to be. Perfect families have embarrassing relatives, even if they don't acknowledge them. Even atheists aren't perfect.

Yes, I see the politicians and the perverts in my church, and I guess I have to acknowledge that they are members of the church as much as I am - but that doesn't mean I have to abandon the church and cede control to them. I think it means that I'm obliged to do what I can to make my church do what it should be doing - and which it often does very well. I must acknowledge that there are many who have done awful things in the name of my church, but I must not give up and surrender control to them.

I think being a Catholic is similar to being an American. America has an idealistic, mythological foundation that most countries don't have and don't understand. We were the result of European conquest of the land of aboriginal people they destroyed, but we are also a nation born of poor, simple immigrants who came here only to seek freedom and survival. The churches have wonderful sacred writings like creeds and scriptures that serve as their founding documents, and Americans have the Declaration of Independence and Constitution and Bill of Rights - and those idealistic founding documents are often used by powerful people as rationalization for all sorts of atrocities. We have our saints - Washington and Jefferson and Lincoln and Roosevelt and Kennedy and Columbus - saints who had very human flaws that you don't see in their portraits and official biographies. We fought questionable wars in Mexico, in Cuba and the Philippines, in Vietnam, in Iraq, and in countless other countries. For most of the history of the United States, we have had presidents and legislatures I cannot respect. Despite our faults, we are a wonderful country, and we have done wonderful things. As a people, we believe in freedom and equality and justice and a good life for all the people of the world - even though our government and our industry do terrible things all over this world.

So how can I, in good conscience, be an American and a Catholic? Well, I'm a good guy, and I always try to do my best to be generous and fair to everyone - and I am just as much a Catholic as the Pope, and just as much an American as George Bush. I choose to have my own values and ideals define my existence as a Catholic and as an American. I believe in the founding ideals and myths of my church and my country, even though I honestly acknowledge their faults. I refuse to acknowledge that George Bush owns America any more than I do, or that John Paul II owns the Catholic Church any more than I do. They may be in charge, and I may have to tolerate them to some extent, but I contend that I and people like me are the heart of America and the heart of the Catholic Church.

So yeah, I'm a Catholic, and I'm an American - but that doesn't make me a bad person. As a Catholic and as an American, I have much to be ashamed of - but I also have much that I can be proud of. Certainly, however, I must have a huge amount of humility if I am a Catholic and an American. And yes, I can sing atheist songs, and I can sing Christian songs, and I can sing the songs of all those that believe in justice and generosity and love and peace. But I cannot sing the songs of hatred and prejudice and war and oppression.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 03:50 PM

Well said, Joe.

As Chesterton wrote "It is not enough for a man to disapprove of Pimlico: in that case he will merely cut his throat or move to Chelsea. Nor certainly is it enough for a man to approve of Pimlico for then it would remain Pimlico, which would be awful. The only way out of it is for somebody to love Pimlico...as mothers love their children."

It's only when we can actually recognise the things that are wrong with something or someone that we can really know whether we love them. That's why, when you come across people who insist that nothing is wrong (with the Church, or America, or anything worth loving), and who get angry at people who point out that there is, that doesn't really feel like loyalty, it feels like panic.

Subject: RE: Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: GUEST,Poppa Gator, cookieless at work
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 04:26 PM

Beautiful essay, Joe.

As someone who generally identifies himself as an ex-Catholic, I'm *almost* persuaded to rejoin the Church! If for no other reason, I can't call myself an "ex-American," and I was entirely persuaded by your description of how being a Catholic is analogous to being an American.

Subject: RE: Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: mg
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 04:38 PM

I'm a Catholic and I find it very difficult and schizophrenic almost..I would have to totally go against my conscience to believe what I am supposed to believe..especially about birth control, which I think should be mandatory for most people most of their lives. I think almost every social ill there is could be gotten around by this....but we used to have pretty songs and the church has done and continues to do some good things....mg

Subject: RE: Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 05:42 PM

Well, Mary, I think I can say that most Catholics believe in birth control. The rules are made by old guys in Rome. They may be saintly old men who think they know what's best for us - but in many cases, I think they're out of touch with real life. I think the same applies to our politicians and our Captains of Industry. Although they may hold authority over us, they often have a warped concept of life. We have to learn to live under their rule without relinquishing our individuality to them.
They are necessary, but they are not all-knowing. We are every bit as important as they are - and there are more of us, and this is our world and our faith. They're in charge, but what does that mean? Does faith demand obedience? I don't think so. I think we are bound to disobey when we disagree - and that doesn't make us less Catholic or less American.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 06:36 PM

Joe, Joe, how have the mighty fallen!! The Pope, God's own personal delegate to human affairs, his incarnation and voice-box in Planet Earth, is now merely "an old guy in Rome"???And "out of touch with real life"????

When did the flavor of the Church of Rome change so profoundly that such perspectives don't make you less Catholic?? Didn't the Holiness of Popes, Bishops and Priests once stand as a pillar of the Faith?

How long has this been going on???

A.

Subject: RE: Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 08:15 PM

Actually, I have now taken the time to read your earlier post more carefully, Joe, and it is truly good. I admire it. My question above was not meant to be quite as wiseacre as it sounded. I am seriously curious about the decline of the divinity of Popes just as, as an American, I am heir to the decline of the doctrine of divinity in kings.

A

Subject: RE: Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 09:19 PM

Church history is a fascinating spectator sport, Amos. Romans watch church politics with a cynical but enthusiastic interest - just as Washingtonians watch U.S. politics. I imagine New Yorkers watch Wall Street in the same way - or maybe they watch all of life in that way. Those in power always struggle to assume some sort of kinship with divinity, and some people actually believe them.

Rome likes to maintain the illusion of serene unchangeability and unquestioned power, but such has never been the case. There have always been saints like Augustine and Francis of Assisi and Martin Luther, there to ask the difficult questions. Throughout the history of Europe there have been times when the kings appointed the popes, and when the popes appointed the kings. The papacy has been heavy-duty politics from the very beginning.

There have been periods of absolute monarchy or dictatorship in most parts of the world, and many parts of the world have also had periods of some sort of rule by the people - the Vatican is subject to the same sort of ebb and flow of political power. And even though power changes form through the ages, most people are largely unaffected by it.

Think of real life, Amos. Most of us are quite effective in our lives, on a local level. In one way or another, many of us have a profound effect on the individuals we have constant contact with. Do rulers in Washington or Rome have that same profound effect on individuals all over their realms? No, I don't think so. The popes are there in Rome, fat and happy and blissfully out of touch with the real world. Most have provided little or no spiritual inspiration to believers, and some have been quite scandalous - and people were well aware of it. The current pope is actually a fairly inspiring sort of person, but he comes at a time when Catholics are generally also quite aware of his shortcomings.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 09:51 PM

I see what you mean, Joe, about the political history. So there is nothing heretical about rejecting the doctrine of infallibility, huh? The God to Man link is individualized? I thought this was a key distinction between Protestant and Catholic doctrine? Or is it just that you're personally unpersuaded by that particular piece of Church doctrine?

A

Subject: RE: Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 10:04 PM

The doctrine of infallibility stands, Amos - but it is widely misunderstood. The process of an infallible declaration is very complex and heavily nuanced - in general, for a doctrine to be infallible, it has to be a statement of faith or morals that has been generally believed by the faithful for the entire history of the church. Since the doctrine of infallibility was declared in the 1870's, it has only been used twice - both times to add titles to the Blessed Virgin Mary that don't make a heck of a lot of difference. The current pope and his minions have made statements that they say "might as well be infallible" - stuff like their declaration that the church can't ordain women because women don't look like Jesus - but they haven't followed the rules for a true ex cathedra infallible statement. Declarations like that are official policy - but there is room for change.
But the older an institution is, the slower it changes. And the Catholic Church is very, very old.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 10:23 PM

Thanks for the clarification, Joe. A complicated old soup, innit?? :>)

A

Subject: RE: Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: PaulineL
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 12:14 AM

Joe, your original essay of 11-19-03 is full of beautiful thoughts beautifully written. I am truly impressed. My favorite part is at the very end, "And yes, I can sing atheist songs, and I can sing Christian songs, and I can sing the songs of all those that believe in justice and generosity and love and peace. But I cannot sing the songs of hatred and prejudice and war and oppression." Many of us are united by our beliefs. Let us not be separated by our religions.

Subject: RE: Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 12:31 PM

"Didn't the Holiness of Popes, Bishops and Priests once stand as a pillar of the Faith?"

If by "stand as a pillar of the Faith" you mean that Catholics have seen it as it is important that priest and bishops, including especially the Pope, should be personaly holy people, that's as true today as it ever has been.

Howevere if you mean that Catholics have believed that somehow the clergy and the bishops are preserved from being sinful human beings, by virtue of ordination, that's never been any kind of teaching - and in fact it would probably be some kind of heresy to assert that.

I remember when there was a case with a bishop having to duck and run because of his private life a few years back, and our Irish Parish Priest commented on it in the Mass: "Well, there's an old saying back home, 'It could happen to a bishop' - and it did didn't it?"

Subject: RE: Can a believer sing Atheist songs?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 01:36 PM

I think Phil Ochs had the right idea when he said that he's rather hear a well written song espousing right wing views than a poorly written song supporting left wing attitudes . Phil, himself, of course was very much on the left.