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BS: Women who drowned her 5 children

GUEST,SharonA 25 Jun 01 - 05:54 PM
Margo 25 Jun 01 - 03:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jun 01 - 02:13 PM
GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com 25 Jun 01 - 02:07 PM
mousethief 25 Jun 01 - 01:52 PM
Amergin 25 Jun 01 - 01:43 PM
KingBrilliant 25 Jun 01 - 12:26 PM
SDShad 25 Jun 01 - 11:39 AM
Kim C 25 Jun 01 - 11:15 AM
Mrrzy 25 Jun 01 - 10:54 AM
SeanM 25 Jun 01 - 02:31 AM
Proudson 25 Jun 01 - 02:21 AM
Proudson 25 Jun 01 - 02:21 AM
Proudson 25 Jun 01 - 02:15 AM
SeanM 25 Jun 01 - 01:57 AM
Proudson 25 Jun 01 - 01:43 AM
Proudson 25 Jun 01 - 01:40 AM
Amergin 25 Jun 01 - 01:39 AM
Proudson 25 Jun 01 - 01:30 AM
Louie Roy 24 Jun 01 - 11:33 PM
GUEST 24 Jun 01 - 10:14 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jun 01 - 08:16 PM
sophocleese 24 Jun 01 - 06:38 PM
Louie Roy 24 Jun 01 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,Joe 24 Jun 01 - 04:53 PM
JedMarum 24 Jun 01 - 01:21 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jun 01 - 12:29 PM
MAV 24 Jun 01 - 12:23 PM
guinnesschik 24 Jun 01 - 12:01 PM
harpgirl 24 Jun 01 - 10:55 AM
alison 24 Jun 01 - 08:50 AM
Fiolar 24 Jun 01 - 07:35 AM
Áine 23 Jun 01 - 11:27 PM
Amergin 23 Jun 01 - 11:26 PM
Sorcha 23 Jun 01 - 11:07 PM
Little Hawk 23 Jun 01 - 10:54 PM
katlaughing 23 Jun 01 - 10:30 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 Jun 01 - 09:54 PM
Mrrzy 23 Jun 01 - 08:35 PM
Little Hawk 23 Jun 01 - 08:33 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 Jun 01 - 08:32 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 Jun 01 - 08:20 PM
Amergin 23 Jun 01 - 07:57 PM
JedMarum 23 Jun 01 - 07:54 PM
SeanM 23 Jun 01 - 07:11 PM
SeanM 23 Jun 01 - 07:09 PM
GUEST,Joe 23 Jun 01 - 06:47 PM
Little Hawk 23 Jun 01 - 06:09 PM
thosp 23 Jun 01 - 06:04 PM
Mrrzy 23 Jun 01 - 05:41 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: GUEST,SharonA
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 05:54 PM

I hope I can say this without starting a forest fire of flaming, but this has been gnawing at me since the news story broke:

How long does it take to drown FIVE children? How long did it take to chase the 7-year-old down? Was it, in total, less time than it took for the husband to leave the house and get to his place of business??? Or was he involved in the murders?????

He says he got the phone call from his wife immediately after his arrival, and then left work. If he were involved in the crime, his co-workers would have had little or no opportunity to interact with him and notice that his behavior was odd... and he would have had an alibi (the trip to work).

In the tapes of his interviews with the media, he appeared awfully calm, not really surprised. His attitude seemed to be "oh, well, that's just Andrea, ya gotta love her" (not a direct quote, of course). The whole thing just "scans" wrong for me.

If he did not murder his children, did he direct his wife to do it? Did he order her to confess? Did he abuse her to such an extent that she would obey in a zombie-like state? I know this all sounds very cruel, and I have nothing but my feelings to support my doubts of his sincerity, but it wouldn't be the first time an abusive husband did something so dastardly.

I hope I'm wrong. I fear I may be right, and the real murderer may be in his glory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Margo
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 03:55 PM

I've been close to the edge myself. I never thought about suicide seriously, though. It did cross my mind. But my depression was due to my situation and not due to any inherited imbalance. My kids are disabled with autism and that is what was driving me nuts. They still have their disability but several things have changed that have mitigated my mental state.

My kids are a bit more mature (every little bit counts) and I am taking better care of myself (exercising daily and taking time to do music). I can't imagine having the notion to kill my kids for months and not confiding in my husband.... I just plain don't understand being that far out. I really have no sympathy for her.

Margo


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:13 PM

although (in total ignorance of any facts) one does wonder where he was with his support the last 7 years

Mrrzy, I think you should take note of what you put in brackets there. And so should the others who are unloading blame on the husband, also "in total ignorance of any facts".

It's not our business to go round making judgement and blaming people when we don't know the facts. Casting blame doesn't help, finding out the reasons and learning from them that is what matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:07 PM

I think punishment in these cases...in most cases, is not the key point..but making dead certain she will never ever do this again. I think mandatory sterilization is absolutely essential in any situation like this...definitely the mother, possibly the father. And it needs to be looked at if a church made her keep having those children when it was clear from the 4th child (she was said to be suicidal after that) that she should have no more children at least till this was resolved. Who made her have the 5th child? They are responsible. If it is the Catholic Church, and I am a Catholic, this is exactly the sort of situation we were trained to keep having babies in...no matter what the situation, no matter what scenario we could come up with, the answer was always that birth control was out of the question. I would like to see this really explored, because I feel we as a church, if she was Catholic (or whatever religion) are really really responsible for this and other tragedies. mg

mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:52 PM

Amergin, I do that too! I thought it was just me.

SDShad: the difference is that we all now know that Newt Gingrich had the morals of Calligula -- that's no reason to try to be like him.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Amergin
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:43 PM

Proudson, have you ever wandered a store...just forgetting about time...just wandering the aisles not even looking at anything....not even really knowing what you are doing, much less why you are there in the first place...I have....I have gone into a store...not even knowing why I was there...and then awhile later...no idea how much later I have realised where I was....it is not a very fun feeling....


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:26 PM

Proudson - your comment about making a folk-song about this is interesting (probably not a nice song though). This is the sort of thing that provokes deep and disturbing thought, and there is a conflict between feeling sympathy for the murdered children and feeling sympathy for the dispairing mother. Songs can be one way of exploring such issues, and dealing with strong emotions. Some songs are like prodding a sore tooth. I like Mrzzy's comment about such songs being like sausages...
Seriously I think we shouldn't now feel songs like The Cruel Mother are innappropriate. Its a truly aweful thing to have happened. It also provokes different resonances in the lives of people who hear the story. Prodding the tooth might help.

Kris


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: SDShad
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:39 AM

Re: Proudson's first post and Dubya:

Well, let's not forget that Newt Gingrich blamed Susan Smith on Bill Clinton and the Democrats, so it shouldn't be too surprising that some might expect the favor to be returned....

Chris


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:15 AM

Well..........

Depression is a funny thing. It's estimated that less than 20% of women with depression ever seek treatment. Most people don't even know what's wrong with them, and others are afraid that all their friends and family will think they're crazy.

Medication helps people. But notice there are several antidepressants on the market... what works for one person may not work for another. Then if someone receiving treatment does something like this, people want to blame the drugs. In a way that's true - maybe the drugs weren't working.

It's possible to be so down that you can't think straight. That's what causes people to do unthinkable things. Because they can't think under the circumstances.

This woman is sick, very sick. I think Susan Smith was just plain bad. But admittedly, sometimes it's very hard to draw that line.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:54 AM

I am respondin to the comment that "'Support' doesn't matter a damn, if what is needed is vinegar and brown paper. Just like TLC goes only so far, if what's needed is a triple bypass." Actually, the bypass without the TLC is pretty much as useless as the TLC without the bypass. People without hope do not survive even healthy lives very well.

Also, please note that I preface my lack-of-fact-based opinions with the fact that I have no facts, so I don't think I'm as bad as I've been painted as being!

Also, having grown up in a more ancient society, I can't say that I agree that all persons who commit crimes should be incarcerated. What happened to making retribution instead of being punished? But that's another thread...

Also, even if she is sick rather than evil, that is should be hospitalized rather than incarcerated, I'm not sure it ought still not to be a life sentence. There are those ones who get out, then have and kill more babies... even if they then also kill themselves, I'm not sure I'm in favor of second chances here...


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: SeanM
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:31 AM

Given the possibility that she was depressed to the point of a psychotic episode, why NOT feel pity for the woman? Where does it say that just because you feel that she's been through something that noone should have to go through say that you must also not think the same of the children?

As to the 'chasing down' - I personally don't see where that enters into it. Yes, it does make the act a bit more horrific (as if that was even possible), but just because she moved around the house while in commision of the murders doesn't seem to say that by default she was not 'impaired' during the act. I'd say that the vast majority of psychotics can move more than a few feet without suddenly turning sane.

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Proudson
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:21 AM

We tend to forget about the husband also...


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Proudson
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:21 AM

Doug R. Guess there are those here who feel like that the wife is the victim...that is the tragedy....


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Proudson
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:15 AM

Sean..I am new here so forgive me....but..she chased her oldest child down...Now if the courts find her not fit..I understand...but I have no sympathy for her..none at all..There has to be a moment when she knew what she was doing...


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: SeanM
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:57 AM

I feel sympathy for the whole family, living AND dead.

It (to me) says a lot for how disposable some people seem to feel life is that there are a substantial body of people calling for her execution before any trial has occured... How would following through with their wishes be any less horrifying than any crime she may have commited? More importantly, how would killing her do ANYTHING to stop future incidents of this kind from happening again?

I find myself (partially) agreeing with MAV on this - IF in trial it were to turn out she'd not only killed the five children, but had been planning it with OJ Simpson since she were in high school AND was a satanistic Klansman who'd sold her and her children's souls to the devil, I STILL think the proper 'punishment' would at most be life in prison.

We teach our children that killing and violence doesn't solve anything.

Then we kill murderers to solve a problem. Well, it DOES teach them that a) we're hypocrites and b) it doesn't work as a deterrent.

*sigh* Sorry for fragmented post. Worked up.

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Proudson
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:43 AM

But why should we feel sorry for her?


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Proudson
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:40 AM

I really am sorry for my last comment...was a very stupid comment on my part


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Amergin
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:39 AM

my god that is one of the most asinine posts I have ever read....

1. I live in Oregon...

2. Yes, I do feel sympathy for the woman. Depression is no bag of tricks. I am also horrified at this, and am deeply saddened. But a human being can only deal with so much before they break. She needs a hospital not a needle.

3. What the hell does Georgey Boy have to do with this? Why would anyone blame it on him? He does enough crap on his own without anyone trying to pin something he had nothing to do with on him....

4. I saw no posts here about anyone glorifying her or putting her on a pedestal...all I saw at the most was that people were a few tears dropped for a broken woman...nothing about heroism...

5. Folks songs don't get "written" they get passed on....


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Proudson
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:30 AM

Hmm...interesting posts here..assume that most of you would want her to live..assume you all live in countries that never avocated the death penalty.....Germany,Britan,France..Very amazed at the sympathty for the woman..She chased her last son down for her last kill...Oh well..guess you will all blame this whole thing on Bush...and not on her own actions...or make a nice folk song about her..and make her a hero...


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Louie Roy
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 11:33 PM

I have come to the conclusion that Little Hawk is from Canada and I don't know what kind of a judicial system they have there but here in the USA we are weak on this type of crime this lady committed and I'm sure through her attorney she will cop a plea of temporary insanity and some judge will grant the request and she will be convicted and sentence to a mental institute for rehabilitation and in two years she will be living back in society again and probably sue somebody for her incarcination.That will be nearly as bad as the crime she committed Louie Roy


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:14 PM

The world would be a better place if MAV's mom had done the same thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 08:16 PM

Thanks, Joe. Well, as usual if we all get a chance to talk about it in some depth, I think we can reach reasonably common ground on these things. First I flew off the handle, then you did, and on it went...

I'm sure we all agree that someone who commits a crime should be arrested and incarcerated, and kept there as long as they are any threat to society. We may disagree about the merits of capital punishment, but we all agree in protecting the public from violence.

I don't think this woman is any danger to the general public, but probably only to herself at this point. She clearly needs to be institutionalized, and for how long...well, I don't know how long...I'm not well enough informed to know that. I'll leave it to people who are better informed than me.

I actually don't believe in the old "eye for an eye" stuff. That's Mosaic Law from the Old Testament. Jesus changed that perspective entirely around when he taught, and he repudiated it. He taught the law of love, not the law of vengeance. I have to side with Jesus on this one, not with Moses. (not that I wouldn't incarcerate murderers, I just wouldn't kill them, that's all...).

I have a friend who's been working in the prisons here, in Ontario, Canada, providing various forms of educational assistance and counseling to the inmates. He helps them find useful work they can do while they're in prison, among other things.

The weird thing is, he tells me that the people he feels safest around, generally, are the murderers who commited crimes of passion...as opposed to people who committed crimes for the sake of money.

He says the murderers usually killed someone they knew personally (most often a family member), because of some emotional situation that got out of hand. He said it's the embezzlers and business criminals that he feels most nervous around, because a lot of them are natural born con artists, and you never know what the hell they're up to. And he says they are far more amoral in most cases than those who commit crimes of passion.

Not that that has necessarily much to do with the case we're discussing in this thread, but I think it's interesting in its own right...

MAV, you are pretty well right that any person who commits a crime of violence can be deemed to be temporarily "out of their mind". I would agree. Although...they may not see it that way themselves. Depends what kind of a life they've had, and what kind of a peer group they hang out with.

It's always a big debate about whether someone is crazy or not, and in the end it's a matter of individual opinion.

A career Mafioso, for instance, sees crime as a normal way of life. Is he crazy? Well, I think he is, but his organization doesn't...and he is going to listen to them, not me. He would figure I am just a small time loser who doesn't have the guts to live close to the edge the way he does and to reap the rewards. As long as he doesn't get caught (or shot) his system of dealing with life appears to be working as he wants it to. I wouldn't trade places with him for a million dollars.

Then there are people who commit financial crimes, like fraud and embezzlement. Are they crazy? Probably just shortsighted and greedy. And amoral. But to me, to be amoral is a form of insanity.

But I guess we're not talking about those kind of crimes here.

Then too, with violent crime...is it insanity, or just stupidity that would lead someone to rob a bank or a liquor store...or is it recklessness....or desperation? Or all of the above. Or none?

Life is complicated, and no single solution any one of us comes up with will fit all cases properly.

That's why being a judge is not an easy job.

I agree, MAV, that life has been cheapened by pop culture. No question of that. It's also been cheapened by overpopulation, consumerism, and dwindling natural resources. I've seen the deterioration happening all around me every with every year that passes.

Soph - Yeah, I was wondering too...why did they have 5 kids??? You've got to wonder about that.

Cheers,

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: sophocleese
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 06:38 PM

The tricky part here is that she did get professional help. She was on prescribed medication for her illness. But I can't see much sign in the reports of any other kind of support for her. Medication is one useful tool for dealing with depression but it should not be taken as the only method of dealing with it.

This is a tragedy and sorry as I am for her kids I'm sorrier for those who are alive and having to deal with it. She seems, despite her husband's support, to have been very, very isolated.

For those who wondered why she (what about him? it takes two to do it) kept on having kids I have some possible answers. Perhaps her hormonal balance while pregnant made her happier. Perhaps she, and her husband, have a religious reason for avoiding contraception. Perhaps depression, which can make simple tasks seem impossible, meant that she wasn't using contraception well. In that case why the hell didn't her husband use a condom or get a vasectomy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Louie Roy
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 05:01 PM

Maybe this tragic and sickening event will alert other families to recognize this sickness before it is to late and get professional help,I surely hope so.I noticed several who responded to this thread berated the Texans,but this tragic crime could have happened anywhere in the world and where the person lived had absolutely no bearing on the crime.Louie Roy


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 04:53 PM

Well well well I seemed to have upset the applecart.Littlehawk Ok I guess I was to harsh on you being a compassionate person. I think if I had put it as Mav did it would of came across better.SeanM No By doing so you show that if you kill someone you in turn will be killed an eye for an eye.Amergin I know a few people with mental illnesses who have not killed anyone I am sorry If you felt I lumped All of them together. My niece is bi-polar,my uncle has post traumatic syndrome,my older sister has suffered from severe depression and the list gos on.SeanM you know you said about killing her husband as well, this does raise some questions where was he when she drowned the children,did he know of her mental condition,and if he was away when she did this then she had enough reasoning to do it while he was away.Ok now I am ready for the retort so let it fly


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 01:21 PM

A few final thoughts;

This issue is NOT the same as the Susan Smith or other recent high profile cases. This woman is clearly a lost soul and had no obvious self-serving motivations which led her to this unthinkable act.

There is actually much compassion for this woman, horrible as her deeds were. There are a few angry people calling for exceution and/or torture (witness a comment or two above) but many more address the extreme sadness of the event, and recognize the utter madness of the murders and the woman who committed them. The press may have hyped the volume of death penalty calls - but I think it is clear that most people (even Texans) are simply shocked and saddened by the event - and willing to the let the legal process work throuh in its own time.

Standing by his wife? Yes, this is a good thing, but I can't help wonder where he was standing before this ... and why he didn't see it coming. I cannot help but wonder how he can so easily talk to the press about his feelings and why he doesn't just act his support for her without explaining his position to the inquiring world ... but I cannot know the details. Maybe there's more there then I can see.

And if somehow the death penalty is the result of the legal process, I expect its application would be a mercy, and her husband and family could continue their support of her through this end. I would. But it doesn't look like that will be the direction this one goes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 12:29 PM

Aine - Thanks. I definitely don't paint all Texans with the same brush. Your song is well appreciated.

Sorcha - I'm curious...what threw you about my last post? Reincarnation references? It's not something I can prove to anyone, and I wouldn't presume to, but it is something I have no doubt of at this point (that I've lived other lives).

I can understand if someone doesn't believe in it, though. I certainly didn't at an earlier stage in this life, but then I had some odd experiences and changed my mind.

Anyway, I'm just wondering.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: MAV
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 12:23 PM

First Think about the Murdered Children!!

Excuses, excuses, excuses!!!...All criminals are now either mentally retarded or temporarily insane.

After all, how could anyone in their right mind knock off a liquor store etc...?

This is not the first time on the national scene. Remember Susan Smith? Her new boyfriend didn't like the kids, so she strapped them into the backseat and then drove into a lake....blaming a mythical "black man"?

We had a case here in Maine, the most liberal state in the US, where a woman killed her three kids, got "treatment", was declared sane and was released. She had three more kids with the same husband and then killed them and herself as well.

We had another horrifying case here where a couple of "born again" but otherwise psychotic "Christians" BAKED their little girl in the kitchen OVEN!!! They thought she was possessed. One cop who responded to the call said he thought it was a doll that he was looking at. Think of his nightmares.

That woman is now out and living in the same community.

Time for a reality check. These are all symptoms of the pop culture's cheapening of life, a woman's right to kill her children (and a man's right to say "Get rid of it..bitch)

THROW UP!!!

These people need civil commitment to an institution until they are no longer a threat to themselves or society, then.....

LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE!!!

Being childless (not by design), I otherwise have no strong opinions on the topic.

mav out


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: guinnesschik
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 12:01 PM

It would truly be interesting to know the husband's role in all this. How much did he help with the raising of these five children? How much support did he offer his wife when she really needed it? The fact that he's going to "stand by" (his words from a news report) her now comes a bit late in the game, if you ask me. There is no way ANY amount of treatment would assuage the guilt and horror this poor woman must feel at her own actions. There is no treatment that will repair the damage done to her psyche. At this point in Andrea Yates' life, an execution would be a mercy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: harpgirl
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:55 AM

...having treated several young mothers successfully,(thank God) for post-partum psychotic depression, I agree with the compassionate remarks made about this tragic unfolding...these mothers are also very isolated; by distance from supportive family, by rigid religious beliefs, by role division which prevents sharing of responsiblities,and often lacking meaningful community support.

Psychotic depression can completely unbutton anyone and make them think their children are demons from hell and must be eliminated. No one is really exempt from becoming psychotic given the "right" combination of stressors.

I think these young people's families', their community, their church, and institutions ostensibly in place to help such familes have failed, to a very tragic end.

Please consult professionals if this could happen to you...And remember, a very enlightened individual who once walked this earth would extend forgiveness to this woman....hg


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: alison
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 08:50 AM

Post natal depression is a terrible thing.... and can change from depression to psychotic VERY quickly..... I've seen it happen in hospital.... I've seen 2 police landrovers bring in one woman who had gone completely over the edge....... someone I knew... who seemed to be OK actually filled the bath with water and was ready to drown her two toddlers, but thankfully walked out of the house instead and found someone to talk to...

unfortunately people tend to ignore the real problem "its not post natal depression - she just needs a good sleep!"... she probably does, but it won't help the depression..... there is still a stigma attached to any sort of mental illness so people don't get the support they need.... and the kindly relatives who may see the signs try to muddle on through.....

I feel so sorry for the family concerned......

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Fiolar
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 07:35 AM

Who can really understand the state of mind of someone who goes to the extreme that the Texas woman did. Was there a previous history of neglect or depression? Was the woman suffering from post-natal depression as I understand one of the children was quite young. What was the husband doing to support her? Questions and more questions. As a psychiatric nurse manager in a British hospital, one of most distressing things I and the nursing staff on one of my wards had to contend with was the case of the wife of an American service man who had killed her two chidren in cold blood. Having spent some time in prison, she was then admitted to us for psychiatric assessment and reports. My problem as a manager was not with her but with the staff who needed a lot of support and counselling as to how to deal with a child killer. To the best of my recollection, she never showed any signs of remorse. She went from us to a hospital in the States. My sympathy is with the Texan woman when the enormity of what she has done finally penetrates the shell. God help her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Áine
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 11:27 PM

Dear Little Hawk,

Speaking as a native Texan, and one who is very proud of her Texas heritage, I'd like you to look at the song in this thread that I posted a year and a day ago, so you'll understand that all Texans aren't cut from the same cloth.

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 11:26 PM

I'm with you, Scorch....people who are prone to depression and other disorders tend to crack when too much shit gets piled on them....I know I have been to that brink myself....and in two cases have actually broken down....I think dear hubby had a bit to do with it....now that he has suffered this loss, he feels remorse....and you are right, Fionn, no one here knows shit about this particular situation....but remember you are coming off as an authority on this case yourself....remember that before you criticise others for their speculations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 11:07 PM

I just plain give up. I thought I was with Fionn until his last post; I thought I was with Little Hawk until his last post.........now I discover I am not really with either of them, just with Andrea.
<>BR>

I will NEVER forget the night I called my mother and told her "if you love these children come get them because tomorrow I am calling Family Services. I just can't deal with it alone anymore". I was not a Single Mother, the Mr. was just away at a Cop Academy for 12 weeks.....one child was 6 and ADD, the other was in the Terrible Twos....

I think it is possible that I could have done this then if I had no support system as Andrea seems not to have had. I only had two children, she had 5.

Executing Andrea will NOT stop the problem!! I don't know just where to go from here, but your friend Sorcha has come awfully close to just choking the living shit out of her children, and she might have if not for a big network of support.........


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 10:54 PM

Thanks, Kat. I am familiar with those concepts, but I sometimes hesitate to introduce them...for fear of triggering a very rabid response from people who don't believe in such things.

But, yes...and that is why I try not to judge the person in any ultimate sense. I am simply not equipped to judge them, because I don't know the whole story.

I'm still trying to understand why I chose my family, as a matter of fact. It's been a pretty tough ride, though it surely could have been a lot worse...

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 10:30 PM

Well, Little Hawk, I know you would understand if I say, besides all of the sadness and feeling of disbelief that something like this could actually happen, the only way I can explain it, for myself, besides the actual physical and mental problems she obviously has, that in my belief system, we choose the families we are born into and we hope to work through any karmic lessons necessary in order to achive soul growth and move on i the next incarnation.

It is difficult to imagine a soul choosing to come into a life where it would be murdered by its mother; that seems like pretty "heavy-duty" karma, but I do believe there are reasons for things happening that we can only hope to someday know.

On the mundane side, I feel a great horror and sadness; it seems so monstrous, even knowing she is mentally ill. My heart goes out to her, her family, and the children, esp. the 7 year old.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 09:54 PM

Mrzzy, right now this guy could probably manage without inuendos from people who know fuck-all about it.

"Support" doesn't matter a damn, if what is needed is vinegar and brown paper. Just like TLC goes only so far, if what's needed is a triple bypass. We've been slower to undertand mental illness than physical, but we surely know enough by now to realise that both will sometimes respond to clinical treatment, and nothing else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 08:35 PM

"For better or for worse, in sickness and in health." Bully for the husband, I say - this is the worse, all right, and the sickness too. The one good point about this whole story, I think, is that he realizes that. She has a much better chance for some kind of recovery with his support - although (in total ignorance of any facts) one does wonder where he was with his support the last 7 years).

Also, the clinical variety of depression can easily be triggered by events, environmental factors or the fact that nobody would listen. The predisposition isn't usually enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 08:33 PM

GUEST Joe - Gosh, that's a pretty compelling argument! I may just have to rethink my whole position on this. Breaking into someone's home and cleaning it? Definitely a sign of insanity. I saw someone throw a whole bunch of litter out of their car on the street yesterday, and after thinking about it for awhile (it was blowing around in the wind) I took a little walk to the grocery and picked up as much of it as I could find on the way and put it in one of the trash cans.

I should probably be executed...or at least committed to the loony bin. I mean, hell, it wasn't my litter, was it? It wasn't my road, either. Who the hell do I think I am anyway? People like me, I mean really ignorant people, should simply not be tolerated any longer. I am scum.

I'm gonna go and turn myself in right after I finish posting this...thanks for opening my eyes.

(not that I don't get what you actually meant, I just thought I should respond in an appropriately respectful manner to it...)

Jed - I may have overspoken my case, cos the thing hit me emotionally. I've suffered a lot of depression in my own life, though it has never driven me to commit a destructive act...it just saps my energy and grinds everything to a halt. It's really an awful thing to go through.

Accordingly, I guess I felt for the woman more than some people might. I also feel terrible for the children, but there's nothing anyone can do for them anymore at this point.

GUEST Joe said that "something must be done" after such an incident. Well, the fact is that really nothing can be done, except to arrest the person and take her off the street (so to speak) and then decide from there, and that has been done. It's before these incidents that something must be done. Afterward is too late.

That's what makes people so mad...they just can't accept that they are powerless to make things right again...nobody likes feeling powerless.

As usual, I thank God I am not a politician...but just another folkie on the forum.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 08:32 PM

Hadn't seen your second post, Jed. I read Little Hawk's post as a criticism of those Texans who have been demanding the death penalty specifically for Andrea Yates.

To me such people are beneath contempt, but if you think they're worth defending, maybe you'd address LH's point and tell us exactly what purpose would be served by killing this woman.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 08:20 PM

What sickens me is the hypocrisy that allows Mooh to sign off a vengeful remark with the word "peace."

Who says a crime's been committed, Mooh? Let's wait and see. Just a guess, but I think it's going to become clear that Andrea Yates was out of her mind when she killed the kids. The fact that she had already been prescribed haloperidol is one indication that she has a serious psychotic illness.

Even if she's convicted, no indication so far that the prosecution is even looking for a punishment. Looks like you might have to organise a lynching, Joe. But I'm afraid you're not going to get any support from the family of the victims.

I'm surprised no-one's thought it worth mentioning that Russell Yates - the the father of the victims - is standing by his wife, which to me is just incredible. So are all other members of the family. Russell Yates said he recognises that Andrea has a psychotic illness, and is going to try to help her through it. He puts some of the people here to shame, and my heart goes out to him.

I go along with Little Hawk on depression, but would just add that in this case it is the clinical variety, and not likely to have been caused by events, environmental factors or the fact that "nobody would listen," as Sorcha suggested.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 07:57 PM

Guest, JoeBlowme, your compassion for those with mental disorders astounds me.

I am deeply shocked and saddened by this tragedy, but I can't help the feeling that people like myself who suffer from mental disorders such as severe depression, anxiety, and whatnot, will be further stigmatised by this event. Folks already do not understand depression....they certainly will be less understanding of it now....

This woman needs a hospital not a needle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 07:54 PM

Sorcha - I know that depression can be 'missed' or ignored by family members. I guess my question was rhetorical, but it is sooo sad that there were probably signs that went un-noticed or un-acted upon. But we cannot know the details.

Little Hawk, your point-of-view about Texans, or some Texans leaves little room for opposing points-of-view. If your comments weren't bigoted, they were at least closed minded. But this is an emotional issue, and I think we all reacted emotionally.

There are good, educated people who examined the issues deeply and who have a real love for their fellow man - and find the death penalty a viable action, as it is currently applied in this society. They are not just Texans, and they are not simply self-centered idiots, and some of them even listen to your points-of-view, different as they are, and don't cast venom back at you. The world is big enough for differing perspectives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: SeanM
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 07:11 PM

BTW, I fully support anti-crimes. If you've got to have criminals, I think breaking and cleaning, criminal giving, and unauthorized civic cleanup are great ways to vent.

Start a crime wave now! Go to your nearest park and weed and mow the lawns! Repaint the basketball courts! Anarchy!

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: SeanM
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 07:09 PM

Wow... what... interesting views we have, Guest.

I agree! Kill EVERYONE who's attached to the story! Kill the mother! Kill the father, for not being there to stop her! Kill the neighbors for not noticing that she was that depressed! Kill the guy at the local grocery store who bagged her last order of groceries for not stopping her! Kill EVERY police officer in town, because obviously they're criminally negligent for not stopping not one but FIVE murders! Kill every judge in the nation, for not knowing who this woman was, and not ordering her to stay away from her children! Kill everyone working for the media, because dammit they HAVE to have caused this somehow! Kill everyone reading this thread, because they didn't figure out how to stop this before it was too late!

Or better yet, realize that by teaching people that killing is the way to remove something (or someone) undesirable from society and/or your life you teach them that life is cheap, and figure out something new to do with 'captial' criminals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 06:47 PM

Damn sad ,I have to say there is no excuse for such a thing and it is your type of thinking little hawk that allows our society to let this type of person to live and lets others think they can get away with heineous crimes because they were depressed or had their ass beat when they were a child. I feel the Bitch should be dunked just like they did when they tryed to get someone to admit to witchcraft.I also feel if she commits suicide it will save us some tax dollars on the trial.I know not very compassionate and it will not bring those children back but something must be done remember the woman who drowned her children in the car by driving it into a lake and then tryed to blame it on someone else. I believe she got off fairly easy because she was not in her right mind, How would you feel if those Texans decided they were not in their right mind and had a good old fashion lynching.But they wouldn't be because murder is a part of human nature there fore how can you be mentally ill now if you broke into some ones home and cleaned it I would say that is mentally ill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 06:09 PM

Exactly. Some Texans. However, I am not surprised some of you didn't like my post. If one makes a strong statement about anything, there will always be some people who don't like it. I don't like capital punishment. Nor do I like murder. Judging from what I read about the woman in the article, she sounds like a person in a truly pitiful state, and I felt a sense of pity for her accordingly.

I don't necessarily feel as much compassion for people who sit comfortably at home, safe and sound, watch their TV, and demand that someone else be put to death.

But maybe I should...?

Well, can't expect to please everyone.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: thosp
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 06:04 PM

it's heartbreaking -- makes me want to cry -- i agree with Sorcha that the woman might very well commit suicide --- i just wish she could be touched by the finger of God and be made well---

peace (Y) thosp


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 05:41 PM

I didn't find Little Hawk's posting bigoted - now had the phrase been "Texans" instead of "some Texans" - it would have been. But some Texans ARE calling for the death penalty, and it isn't bigoted to notice them. Nor to think uncharitable things about people who'd want to kill someone for doing something so beyond the pale that it has to be insane, almost by fiat. Not that I have anything against little Italian cars, either!


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