BS: Women who drowned her 5 children

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Louie Roy
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 05:01 PM

Maybe this tragic and sickening event will alert other families to recognize this sickness before it is to late and get professional help,I surely hope so.I noticed several who responded to this thread berated the Texans,but this tragic crime could have happened anywhere in the world and where the person lived had absolutely no bearing on the crime.Louie Roy

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: sophocleese
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 06:38 PM

The tricky part here is that she did get professional help. She was on prescribed medication for her illness. But I can't see much sign in the reports of any other kind of support for her. Medication is one useful tool for dealing with depression but it should not be taken as the only method of dealing with it.

This is a tragedy and sorry as I am for her kids I'm sorrier for those who are alive and having to deal with it. She seems, despite her husband's support, to have been very, very isolated.

For those who wondered why she (what about him? it takes two to do it) kept on having kids I have some possible answers. Perhaps her hormonal balance while pregnant made her happier. Perhaps she, and her husband, have a religious reason for avoiding contraception. Perhaps depression, which can make simple tasks seem impossible, meant that she wasn't using contraception well. In that case why the hell didn't her husband use a condom or get a vasectomy?

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 08:16 PM

Thanks, Joe. Well, as usual if we all get a chance to talk about it in some depth, I think we can reach reasonably common ground on these things. First I flew off the handle, then you did, and on it went...

I'm sure we all agree that someone who commits a crime should be arrested and incarcerated, and kept there as long as they are any threat to society. We may disagree about the merits of capital punishment, but we all agree in protecting the public from violence.

I don't think this woman is any danger to the general public, but probably only to herself at this point. She clearly needs to be institutionalized, and for how long...well, I don't know how long...I'm not well enough informed to know that. I'll leave it to people who are better informed than me.

I actually don't believe in the old "eye for an eye" stuff. That's Mosaic Law from the Old Testament. Jesus changed that perspective entirely around when he taught, and he repudiated it. He taught the law of love, not the law of vengeance. I have to side with Jesus on this one, not with Moses. (not that I wouldn't incarcerate murderers, I just wouldn't kill them, that's all...).

I have a friend who's been working in the prisons here, in Ontario, Canada, providing various forms of educational assistance and counseling to the inmates. He helps them find useful work they can do while they're in prison, among other things.

The weird thing is, he tells me that the people he feels safest around, generally, are the murderers who commited crimes of passion...as opposed to people who committed crimes for the sake of money.

He says the murderers usually killed someone they knew personally (most often a family member), because of some emotional situation that got out of hand. He said it's the embezzlers and business criminals that he feels most nervous around, because a lot of them are natural born con artists, and you never know what the hell they're up to. And he says they are far more amoral in most cases than those who commit crimes of passion.

Not that that has necessarily much to do with the case we're discussing in this thread, but I think it's interesting in its own right...

MAV, you are pretty well right that any person who commits a crime of violence can be deemed to be temporarily "out of their mind". I would agree. Although...they may not see it that way themselves. Depends what kind of a life they've had, and what kind of a peer group they hang out with.

It's always a big debate about whether someone is crazy or not, and in the end it's a matter of individual opinion.

A career Mafioso, for instance, sees crime as a normal way of life. Is he crazy? Well, I think he is, but his organization doesn't...and he is going to listen to them, not me. He would figure I am just a small time loser who doesn't have the guts to live close to the edge the way he does and to reap the rewards. As long as he doesn't get caught (or shot) his system of dealing with life appears to be working as he wants it to. I wouldn't trade places with him for a million dollars.

Then there are people who commit financial crimes, like fraud and embezzlement. Are they crazy? Probably just shortsighted and greedy. And amoral. But to me, to be amoral is a form of insanity.

But I guess we're not talking about those kind of crimes here.

Then too, with violent crime...is it insanity, or just stupidity that would lead someone to rob a bank or a liquor store...or is it recklessness....or desperation? Or all of the above. Or none?

Life is complicated, and no single solution any one of us comes up with will fit all cases properly.

That's why being a judge is not an easy job.

I agree, MAV, that life has been cheapened by pop culture. No question of that. It's also been cheapened by overpopulation, consumerism, and dwindling natural resources. I've seen the deterioration happening all around me every with every year that passes.

Soph - Yeah, I was wondering too...why did they have 5 kids??? You've got to wonder about that.

Cheers,

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:14 PM

The world would be a better place if MAV's mom had done the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Louie Roy
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 11:33 PM

I have come to the conclusion that Little Hawk is from Canada and I don't know what kind of a judicial system they have there but here in the USA we are weak on this type of crime this lady committed and I'm sure through her attorney she will cop a plea of temporary insanity and some judge will grant the request and she will be convicted and sentence to a mental institute for rehabilitation and in two years she will be living back in society again and probably sue somebody for her incarcination.That will be nearly as bad as the crime she committed Louie Roy

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Proudson
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:30 AM

Hmm...interesting posts here..assume that most of you would want her to live..assume you all live in countries that never avocated the death penalty.....Germany,Britan,France..Very amazed at the sympathty for the woman..She chased her last son down for her last kill...Oh well..guess you will all blame this whole thing on Bush...and not on her own actions...or make a nice folk song about her..and make her a hero...

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Amergin
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:39 AM

my god that is one of the most asinine posts I have ever read....

1. I live in Oregon...

2. Yes, I do feel sympathy for the woman. Depression is no bag of tricks. I am also horrified at this, and am deeply saddened. But a human being can only deal with so much before they break. She needs a hospital not a needle.

3. What the hell does Georgey Boy have to do with this? Why would anyone blame it on him? He does enough crap on his own without anyone trying to pin something he had nothing to do with on him....

4. I saw no posts here about anyone glorifying her or putting her on a pedestal...all I saw at the most was that people were a few tears dropped for a broken woman...nothing about heroism...

5. Folks songs don't get "written" they get passed on....

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Proudson
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:40 AM

I really am sorry for my last comment...was a very stupid comment on my part

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Proudson
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:43 AM

But why should we feel sorry for her?

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: SeanM
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:57 AM

I feel sympathy for the whole family, living AND dead.

It (to me) says a lot for how disposable some people seem to feel life is that there are a substantial body of people calling for her execution before any trial has occured... How would following through with their wishes be any less horrifying than any crime she may have commited? More importantly, how would killing her do ANYTHING to stop future incidents of this kind from happening again?

I find myself (partially) agreeing with MAV on this - IF in trial it were to turn out she'd not only killed the five children, but had been planning it with OJ Simpson since she were in high school AND was a satanistic Klansman who'd sold her and her children's souls to the devil, I STILL think the proper 'punishment' would at most be life in prison.

We teach our children that killing and violence doesn't solve anything.

Then we kill murderers to solve a problem. Well, it DOES teach them that a) we're hypocrites and b) it doesn't work as a deterrent.

*sigh* Sorry for fragmented post. Worked up.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Proudson
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:15 AM

Sean..I am new here so forgive me....but..she chased her oldest child down...Now if the courts find her not fit..I understand...but I have no sympathy for her..none at all..There has to be a moment when she knew what she was doing...

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Proudson
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:21 AM

Doug R. Guess there are those here who feel like that the wife is the victim...that is the tragedy....

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Proudson
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:21 AM

We tend to forget about the husband also...

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: SeanM
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:31 AM

Given the possibility that she was depressed to the point of a psychotic episode, why NOT feel pity for the woman? Where does it say that just because you feel that she's been through something that noone should have to go through say that you must also not think the same of the children?

As to the 'chasing down' - I personally don't see where that enters into it. Yes, it does make the act a bit more horrific (as if that was even possible), but just because she moved around the house while in commision of the murders doesn't seem to say that by default she was not 'impaired' during the act. I'd say that the vast majority of psychotics can move more than a few feet without suddenly turning sane.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:54 AM

I am respondin to the comment that "'Support' doesn't matter a damn, if what is needed is vinegar and brown paper. Just like TLC goes only so far, if what's needed is a triple bypass." Actually, the bypass without the TLC is pretty much as useless as the TLC without the bypass. People without hope do not survive even healthy lives very well.

Also, please note that I preface my lack-of-fact-based opinions with the fact that I have no facts, so I don't think I'm as bad as I've been painted as being!

Also, having grown up in a more ancient society, I can't say that I agree that all persons who commit crimes should be incarcerated. What happened to making retribution instead of being punished? But that's another thread...

Also, even if she is sick rather than evil, that is should be hospitalized rather than incarcerated, I'm not sure it ought still not to be a life sentence. There are those ones who get out, then have and kill more babies... even if they then also kill themselves, I'm not sure I'm in favor of second chances here...

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:15 AM

Well..........

Depression is a funny thing. It's estimated that less than 20% of women with depression ever seek treatment. Most people don't even know what's wrong with them, and others are afraid that all their friends and family will think they're crazy.

Medication helps people. But notice there are several antidepressants on the market... what works for one person may not work for another. Then if someone receiving treatment does something like this, people want to blame the drugs. In a way that's true - maybe the drugs weren't working.

It's possible to be so down that you can't think straight. That's what causes people to do unthinkable things. Because they can't think under the circumstances.

This woman is sick, very sick. I think Susan Smith was just plain bad. But admittedly, sometimes it's very hard to draw that line.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: SDShad
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:39 AM

Re: Proudson's first post and Dubya:

Well, let's not forget that Newt Gingrich blamed Susan Smith on Bill Clinton and the Democrats, so it shouldn't be too surprising that some might expect the favor to be returned....

Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:26 PM

Proudson - your comment about making a folk-song about this is interesting (probably not a nice song though). This is the sort of thing that provokes deep and disturbing thought, and there is a conflict between feeling sympathy for the murdered children and feeling sympathy for the dispairing mother. Songs can be one way of exploring such issues, and dealing with strong emotions. Some songs are like prodding a sore tooth. I like Mrzzy's comment about such songs being like sausages...
Seriously I think we shouldn't now feel songs like The Cruel Mother are innappropriate. Its a truly aweful thing to have happened. It also provokes different resonances in the lives of people who hear the story. Prodding the tooth might help.

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Amergin
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:43 PM

Proudson, have you ever wandered a store...just forgetting about time...just wandering the aisles not even looking at anything....not even really knowing what you are doing, much less why you are there in the first place...I have....I have gone into a store...not even knowing why I was there...and then awhile later...no idea how much later I have realised where I was....it is not a very fun feeling....

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:52 PM

Amergin, I do that too! I thought it was just me.

SDShad: the difference is that we all now know that Newt Gingrich had the morals of Calligula -- that's no reason to try to be like him.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From:
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:07 PM

I think punishment in these cases...in most cases, is not the key point..but making dead certain she will never ever do this again. I think mandatory sterilization is absolutely essential in any situation like this...definitely the mother, possibly the father. And it needs to be looked at if a church made her keep having those children when it was clear from the 4th child (she was said to be suicidal after that) that she should have no more children at least till this was resolved. Who made her have the 5th child? They are responsible. If it is the Catholic Church, and I am a Catholic, this is exactly the sort of situation we were trained to keep having babies in...no matter what the situation, no matter what scenario we could come up with, the answer was always that birth control was out of the question. I would like to see this really explored, because I feel we as a church, if she was Catholic (or whatever religion) are really really responsible for this and other tragedies. mg

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:13 PM

although (in total ignorance of any facts) one does wonder where he was with his support the last 7 years

Mrrzy, I think you should take note of what you put in brackets there. And so should the others who are unloading blame on the husband, also "in total ignorance of any facts".

It's not our business to go round making judgement and blaming people when we don't know the facts. Casting blame doesn't help, finding out the reasons and learning from them that is what matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Margo
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 03:55 PM

I've been close to the edge myself. I never thought about suicide seriously, though. It did cross my mind. But my depression was due to my situation and not due to any inherited imbalance. My kids are disabled with autism and that is what was driving me nuts. They still have their disability but several things have changed that have mitigated my mental state.

My kids are a bit more mature (every little bit counts) and I am taking better care of myself (exercising daily and taking time to do music). I can't imagine having the notion to kill my kids for months and not confiding in my husband.... I just plain don't understand being that far out. I really have no sympathy for her.

Margo

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: GUEST,SharonA
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 05:54 PM

I hope I can say this without starting a forest fire of flaming, but this has been gnawing at me since the news story broke:

How long does it take to drown FIVE children? How long did it take to chase the 7-year-old down? Was it, in total, less time than it took for the husband to leave the house and get to his place of business??? Or was he involved in the murders?????

He says he got the phone call from his wife immediately after his arrival, and then left work. If he were involved in the crime, his co-workers would have had little or no opportunity to interact with him and notice that his behavior was odd... and he would have had an alibi (the trip to work).

In the tapes of his interviews with the media, he appeared awfully calm, not really surprised. His attitude seemed to be "oh, well, that's just Andrea, ya gotta love her" (not a direct quote, of course). The whole thing just "scans" wrong for me.

If he did not murder his children, did he direct his wife to do it? Did he order her to confess? Did he abuse her to such an extent that she would obey in a zombie-like state? I know this all sounds very cruel, and I have nothing but my feelings to support my doubts of his sincerity, but it wouldn't be the first time an abusive husband did something so dastardly.

I hope I'm wrong. I fear I may be right, and the real murderer may be in his glory.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 06:39 PM

Once again "in total ignorance of the facts"... There's a lynch mob mentality out there in a few places. And that isn't a flame, it's a sober and worried comment. This is a public place were talking in.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 07:17 PM

hello SharonA you seened to have brought up a few good points so SeanM we may just have to kill the husband as well.I know you think I believe life is cheap when actually I feel why should I put value on some ones life when they don't think anyone elses is worth a damn.LittleHawk well as a good Christian I can see why you have compassion unfortunately I am not a good enough Christian to forgive such an act.Mgarvey it is not the fault of the church for this or anyone else it is hers she did the act whether her Husband had anything to do with this will have to remain to be seen.SharonA if that was the case why the frell didn't she just kill him?So many whys and hows,Little Hawk you said earlier I might feel this way because I was powerless as we all where to do anything about it,I have to say your right I know I will not gain any power or become mightier but might feel a sense of peace with severe justice being served.They weren't my children so why should I feel this way maybe in the hopes it will be a deterent,maybe so others will be shown they can't get away with this type of thing and other children won't have to suffer.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 07:41 PM

It's not your place to forgive, or not to forgive, Joe. That goes for all of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Burke
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 08:21 PM

My first reaction to the little I first heard was the sadness expressed in the first messages here.

I've been reading the news stories on Yahoo to get more information. The more I read there, the more I'm bothered about the father. It sounds as if Andrea had given up all she wanted to in life for her husband. Not working and home schooling both sound like what he wanted. She's from a Catholic family of 5 children, but the size of the family sounds like his idea as well. How can any one woman be expected to care full time for 5 children under the age of 7? At the very least having the older ones in school would have helped. No wonder she felt she was doing a terrible job & was damaging them.

Before her first depression & suicide attempt they had sold their house & furnishings, to either buy bigger or take off & travel (different neighbors, different accounts). Never doing either, they lived with her parents first, then bought a smaller house. Their old neighbors seem to have known her, but the new neighbors did not. Sounds to me like something was unravelling for some time.

My heart breaks for the children who knew Mom was killing them. I feel deeply distrubed by her actions, if she could call for help immediatly after, why not before? I also respect Sorcha's "been there" story. Sorcha could have, "I stopped myself, why not her?" Instead she tries to give us understanding.

I have a co-worker who served on a jury for homocide. New York did not have the death penalty at the time, but still she found it an awful & awesome responsibility. I came close to being on a jury for a child abuse case & was glad when others were selected. It's so easy to pass our coffee break verdicts, but being called on to actually judge would be terribly difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:06 PM

wow. I am stunned by all that which went on before my little bit.

I think we are all just plain human beings who can sometimes get twisted into something frightening and muderous. I remember a "folk" song which is more to the point of this story than The Cuel Mother:

His name was Charlie Lawson He had a loving wife And nobody knows what caused him To take his family's life

They say he killed his wife at first As the little ones stood by Oh Daddy do not take our lives We are too young to die

But the raging man could not be stopped He did not heed their call He gave them five and fatal shots Ubtil he'd killed them all

They did not carry him to jail No lawyer will he pay He'll have his trial in another land On that final judgement day

I weep for the mother, the children, the father; all who have been smothered with this thing, seared by this thing, saddened by this thing

All of us

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:20 PM

Thank you, Burke. There were several other incidents as well--if I related them here, I could be arrested for child abuse. I loved, and still love, ,my children, but raising children without a Support System is impossible.

I find myself still wondering about the "religion" involved and the involvement of the husband......

I thought I was through posting to this thread, but I guess not......

(Little Hawk--now I don't know what it was that tripped my trigger--forgive me, OK? It sure wasn't the "lives" thing.)

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 07:51 AM

I still think pointing a finger of blame at the father without knowing a hell of a lot more about it than any of us do is not right.

It's as if people think there is a limited supply of compassion. If they feel they should give it to one person, they have to take it away from someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: GUEST,SharonA
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 10:32 AM

McGrath, please tell me what facts I was ignoring in my previous post (mostly, I raised questions and spoke about my own impressions). I absolutely agree that we would need a hell of a lot more information about the father before absolutely blaming him. I'm not about to "lynch" him. On the other hand, I'm not ready to call him a saint, either, without knowing a hell of a lot more about the situation. And every tidbit I read and hear about the man, such as Burke's posting above, cause me to doubt him a little more.

At best, the guy turned a blind eye to a dangerous situation. The wife had a history of attempted suicide AND it was stated that she was too depressed to attend a party with her children the previous weekend (NOT stressed out & needing a break, DEPRESSED). According to the link that katlaughing provided on June 23 @ 11:30 am, Andrea Yates had just been taken off Haldol two weeks previously, and on the Monday prior to the murders had just started a new dosage of several anti-depressants and had discussed starting therapy with her doctor, so apparently she wasn't even in therapy at the time. At the very least, her husband should not have left her alone with the kids for fear that she might kill HERSELF and leave the young ones in the house without supervision. Was he in denial? Is he just not too bright? Or what???

The link also says that the wife's brother stated that the Yates couple "didn't like to ask for help... didn't want to talk." Sorry, but such behavior CAN be a sign that there's spousal abuse in a home. OR it could simply indicate embarrassment about or fear of discussing mental illness, even with close family, which again points toward denial, pride and an unwillingness to accept emotional support. Either way, not good.

Does anyone know if autopsies have been performed on the kids to determine whether, in fact, the cause of death was drowning, and to determine the time of death? The wife's confession wouldn't amount to much if the kids had been killed the previous night, and the bodies dipped in water in the morning. BTW, how much credence DOES the law give to the confession of a person deemed to be psychotic?

Yes, we do need more info before we draw ANY conclusions about this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 12:00 PM

Hey, Sorcha, no sweat...

You didn't hurt my feelings any. I was just curious what it was that bothered you, that's all.

I think, if nothing else, this thread has helped some of us understand where someone else is coming from, anyway...

I hope so.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: sophocleese
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 12:20 PM

When I was depressed I didn't talk about with people, even family members, until things blew up in my face and I had to talk about it. My interior dialogue usually included these kinds of lines. "Why talk about it with others? They've got far more serious things to think about.I'm not important." "Its not really depression I'm just feeling down a little. I'm okay really." Hell If I want to kill myself its because I'm not worth anything alive." Better if I don't say anything because it just upsets people and then they get hysterical or think I'm just saying it to get attention."

Part of being mentally ill is that you don't make the best decisions that could be made. You don't always make the wrong ones but you're not thinking the same way you usually do. Wondering why the mother didn't do any number of sensible things doesn't help because she wasn't able to make consistently sensible decisions. Ideally the father should have been able to make many of these decsions himself but he probably didn't know what he needed to do. The father may well have thought that he was being supportive but was instead woefully ignorant of what kind of support was really needed. He may also have made lousy decisions because of stress and embarassment.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 12:21 PM

"Was he in denial? Is he just not too bright? Or what???"

Maybe. Or maybe there was one of a load of other explanations, or maybe some of the "facts" aren't quite right or there are other that haven't come out. Who knows - I certainly don't, and nor do the people who've been leaping in here with accusations.

In time the full facts can be properly looked at. But grabbing facts out of the air at a distance and casting blame that way is in my view just a wrong thing to do. It's rushing to judgement, and that is a key part of the lynching mentality.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Fiolar
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 12:46 PM

Not knowing all the facts I have little wish to comment on the reasons why the kids were killed. I would hesitate to blame religion, Roman Catholic or other that is too simplistic. Many thousands if not millions of families have been more than five and there is no history of multiple killings. I would assume that in all probability the woman had post-natal depression and got little if any support from relatives. The attitude in many of these cases is "come on snap out of it." The medical profession can on occasion be less than helpful - "have another pill Mrs, and if that doesn't help come back and see me again."

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: GUEST,SharonA
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:13 PM

You're right, McGrath; casting blame is wrong. I'm sorry if I've fired up anyone to "go after" Mr. Yates. I'm just alarmed at all the people ready to string up MRS. Yates without considering the possibility that she may not be telling the whole truth of the matter, that she may not even be able to discern truth and reality. As many here have said, we don't know ALL the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:19 PM

In a situation like this any talk about punishment isn't relevant, because she's already inflicted on herself a worse punishment than any court could ever impose. And that goes for her husband too, regardless of whether he's a saint or a villain or just something in between like most of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: MMario
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:25 PM

" How can any one woman be expected to care full time for 5 children under the age of 7?

My Mom did - so did at least 4 mothers of kids who were in school with me. I can think of 5 or 6 more who had at least 4 within seven years.

None of them Roman Catholic. None of whom killed their kids, themselves or their husbands. Most of whom are still active and happily grand-parenting and great grand-parenting.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:54 PM

SharonA, I am glad you brought up those questions. I didn't want to say it because it sounded too paranoid, but I've really been wondering about the father; whether he might have been involved, driven her to it, or whatever.

This is not judgement, just speculation. Religion may have had a part in it, especially if one considers her supposed comments that her children were damaged. Where did that judgement of herself and her children come from? Yes, it could have come from deep within her apparently damaged psyche, but could easily have come from years of verbal and mental abuse.

I am fortunate that I grew up being praised and therefore had a healthy ego. Married at 16, with a baby on the way, whom I had at 17, my first husband who was 19, came from an abusive, alcoholic family. From the day we were married until the day I left him 5 years later, there was never a time went by that he did not mentally and verbally abuse me. At 5'2", I was 110 lbs and I had a name, but I was "short, fat, & dumpy" and "Hey, you!" as far as he was concerned. He beat on one of our dogs (before I gave it away), except when I pointed a small gun at him and told him to stop and one time shot it over his head to stop him.

I am convinced the main reason I didn't wind up beaten or dead, or worse, killing him myself, is because I met a man who told me how beautiful I was and treated me just as beautifully. With his support and nurturing of my very bruised ego, I was able to take my by then, two children and leave. There were other supportive factors, family members to live with, friends to talk to, BUT in those days, spousal abuse, and even child abuse were still not really talked about or considered that awful.

Anyway, I just meant that as an example of how a spouse can have profound effects on the other. We do not know if that is the case, but something in me does not trust this father.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 02:25 PM

"Could have" - blaming the victim takes a new twist here.

This is a public forum. Hints and rumour and speculation feed on hints and rumours and speculation, and real people can get hurt.

Just try and imagine it - your wife has killed your five children, and you're probably trying to work out whether there was anyway you did or didn't do that contributed to it happening, as inevitably you would, whether there was orvthere wasn't. And out on the net total strangers who don't have the facts about it are pointing fingers of blame at you and saying they reckon you are responsible.

And if that kind of thing is happening in a restrained kind of way here, on what is a pretty decent forum, God knows what kind of stuff is being thrown around on some of the other sites around.

And I suppose if the man were to kill himself now, people would just say "well, that shows he must have been to blame".

Tragic terrible things happen to people. Rushing to judgement and playing "blame the victim" is a horrible game.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: GUEST,SharonA
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 02:31 PM

Thank you, kat. I'm so sorry you went through all that horrible abuse, and I'm glad to hear that you got out of it with your life and the lives of your children. I hope you continue to find love and support; from what I've read on the Catspaw-Update threads, I think you will. Just in case you haven't heard enough good stuff there, let me chime in with all the other voices: I think you must be a fantastic person to know!

For my own part, I don't care to go into the details but I too have been abused verbally, emotionally and in other ways, by an alcoholic boyfriend and others. Thankfully, I have no children who had to share that. Thanks to all you Mudcatters for providing a caring, supportive environment; it helps!!!

SharonA

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: harpgirl
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 02:31 PM

...I thought similar thoughts, kat. But I didn't want to start a firestorm. (At any rate, now that I understand McGrath better, I can say to SharonA that he isn't mad or trying to stir up trouble. He likes to debate and enjoys turning the subject every which way to have a look at it.)

Regardless of who is to blame, this tragic situation might have been avoided if the FAMILY had the right kind and MUCH more support...hg

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 05:16 PM

Thanks hg, I agree.

SharonA, thank you,too. That was a long time ago. I've been through a second, very short marriage, and my third one, which has lasted 21 years with him having adopted all three of my children and helping to raise them. It hasn't always been ideal, but there has never been that type of abuse ever again in my life. Thank you very much for your concern and compliments. The Mudcatters are a very incredible lot of people and will do anything possible to help anyone who asks. I hoep you can join as a member sometime, soon. That way you can share private messages, as well as do other things, such as trace specific threads, etc. I hope you have found ease form the abusiveness you've experienced, too.

McGrath, what can I tell ya? We went through this during COlumbine, during the Russian submarine sinking with all of the men trapped. We are a curious lot and we do try to be careful about how we term our speculations. It is human nature to discuss the horrors and the joys of our times. I understand the horror of what less kindly sites may be saying and I understand your concern that it is not fair.

As you have seen, though, I have been a victim, of much mroe than I worte of above. I did not say I was blaming the father, only that I had questions, most of which will probably never be answered.

As for how he might feel if he read or heard the speculations of complete strangers? That goes back to one of my earliest posts on this thread and my belief system of karma and choosing our families, etc. It does not mean I think he deserves this and has to go through it without any support etc.; just that at some level, his higher consciousness had an awareness and will help him to deal with this. Some would use the old adage about god not giving us more than we can handle.

Well, I hope I didn't just make a muddle of what I was trying to say.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 05:35 PM

This time anyway I'm not trying to stir things up, but to damp them down.

I've seen how this kind of thing can get out of hand, and get a bit nervous at times. When the target of speculation and so forth is some government agency or whatever, I tend to think they can take it, it comes with the job and with the rewards of the job. Also they are in the business of hiding the truth if it's embarassing to them, and sometimes wild speculation can be a way of opening things up.

But this one is a bit different. It's about two people in whose life something indescribably awful has happened, and the right thing is to stand back and avoid saying anything out of hand.

More important, we should maybe be looking around the people we know, and imagining whether there might be someone or some family desperately needing support or intervention of some kind, and is there anything we might be doing. (The publicity around this kind of thing can be a factor in triggering it off elsewhere, as has been repeatedly demonstrated.)

And I am quite sure that there are in fact going to be people round the Mudcat who are doing exactly that right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Burke
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 05:54 PM

I know there are people who have 5 children in 7 years. How many of them try home schooling with little or no extra help? Unless there are multiple births involved at least one, probably more, will be school age by the time no. 5 comes along. She was supposed to be teaching 5 & 7 year olds to read while nursing maybe? Notice her first post-partum depression set in about the time no.1 should have been going off to school and when no.4 came she had no home of her own? It sounds to me like more pressure than hormonal imbalance; pressures the father could at have helped alleviate but may actually have created.

Ultimately the official investigators should be talking to a lot more people than those who talk to the media. There will be no official recommendation for 30 days. The trial will, no doubt, bring in family members who have a much better picture of her life the past 7 years than we can glean from brief news articles.

Perhaps the value of all this speculation is not in what happens to the Yates family, but helping to sensitize all of us to the possibility of these kinds of situations existing around us. Maybe we can try to learn what we can do to help them in their time of need. It's great to talk about being supportive, but some of us don't know how.

We've heard that Andrea needed support, but how do we know & what can we do? The neighbors barely knew the family, but respecting privacy is a really important value these days. Someone who'd been a friend since 8th grade & gone to with her nursing school & her wedding, admitted "that the two had not spoken in several years." Hmm, I can think of a couple of people I've been too busy to be in touch with for a while.

It sounds like they may have been religious & attempting to live those values as they understood them, but not involved in a church. I know it's popular to say we can be religious/spiritual without going to church, but maybe church participation could have helped create the community they did not seem to have otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 06:00 PM

Well, in England people are always saying thigs like "They are very good neighbours - you wouldn't know they were there". I'd imagined that, outside big cities anyway, it might be a bit different in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 07:53 PM

McGrath no usually we say he was such a quiet young man I can't believe he killed those people and stuffed them in his fridge. McGrath your right about rushing to judgement but when they find all the guilty parties involved in the murders I think they should be executed. I am replying this way in that one of your posts you seemed to make it as if neither of them was quilty.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 08:06 PM

If Joe can imagine a worse punishment than having killed your five children, I can't. Death wopuild be nothing compared to that. In fact most people who kill their children kill themselves, if they aren't prevented.

Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Burke
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 08:07 PM

Here's what they're actually saying.