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BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?

CamiSu 24 Jun 01 - 01:34 AM
JenEllen 24 Jun 01 - 02:05 AM
CamiSu 24 Jun 01 - 02:13 AM
Morticia 24 Jun 01 - 06:45 AM
Naemanson 24 Jun 01 - 07:15 AM
Jon Freeman 24 Jun 01 - 07:29 AM
gnu 24 Jun 01 - 08:00 AM
hesperis 24 Jun 01 - 10:28 AM
RichM 24 Jun 01 - 10:39 AM
Bill D 24 Jun 01 - 10:43 AM
hesperis 24 Jun 01 - 11:17 AM
Bill D 24 Jun 01 - 02:13 PM
GUEST,oj 24 Jun 01 - 03:32 PM
toadfrog 24 Jun 01 - 05:32 PM
Greg F. 24 Jun 01 - 07:41 PM
hesperis 24 Jun 01 - 08:54 PM
Midchuck 24 Jun 01 - 09:08 PM
GUEST,CraigS 24 Jun 01 - 09:27 PM
campfire 24 Jun 01 - 09:52 PM
Greg F. 24 Jun 01 - 10:29 PM
Bill D 24 Jun 01 - 11:17 PM
CamiSu 25 Jun 01 - 12:38 AM
Proudson 25 Jun 01 - 12:43 AM
CamiSu 25 Jun 01 - 01:28 AM
Proudson 25 Jun 01 - 01:48 AM
hesperis 25 Jun 01 - 02:01 AM
SeanM 25 Jun 01 - 02:03 AM
Proudson 25 Jun 01 - 02:09 AM
hesperis 25 Jun 01 - 02:37 AM
hesperis 25 Jun 01 - 03:01 AM
Kim C 25 Jun 01 - 11:22 AM
Steve in Idaho 25 Jun 01 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,who needs Napster 25 Jun 01 - 03:12 PM
Rick Fielding 25 Jun 01 - 04:07 PM
SeanM 25 Jun 01 - 05:44 PM
SeanM 25 Jun 01 - 05:45 PM
Melani 25 Jun 01 - 11:36 PM
hesperis 26 Jun 01 - 02:55 AM

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Subject: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: CamiSu
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 01:34 AM

A couple of weeks ago my husband and I were at a Chris Smither concert (he's a wonderful blues player, but that is another thread) and the guy in front of us told his buddy to buy a CD and he'd copy it. Now, for a long time we have felt that that just is plain wrong and have refused to do that, buying another copy of something if a friend liked something so much we had to give it to them. Well, David told the guy he was stealing Chris' work and they had a bit of a tiff. We asked the guy if he wanted to face Chris and tell him what he was doing, and backed him into a corner. He tried to pass the blame onto us-- "That guy wants me to tell you that I'm loaning my friend money to buy your CD and I'm gonna copy it". Well areally funny series of looks went across Chris' face, and his reply was something like "If you believe in stealing other folks work, go ahead". I felt bad 'cause Chris was hurt and mad 'cause the guy never really seemed to get it. Have any of you ever been in this sort of situation, and how have you handled it?

I should say another friend at the Clearwater told me to copy his disc if after hearing it I liked it. I told him I wouldn't and after a bit he got it. It's his first disk and he's just thrilled to have people hear it, and isn't counting on that income, but I still can't do it.

Any feedback?

CamiSu


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: JenEllen
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 02:05 AM

I've always refused to copy entire albums. if someone wants to hear it badly enough they can fork over the money.
I am guilty, however, of sending 'songs' via tape. For myself, that's more promotion than anything. Folks hear something they might not have otherwise, and generally tend to go out and buy the cd's for themselves.

~J (no help whatsoever:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: CamiSu
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 02:13 AM

Yes, that I do too. As in "You might like this. It's on album X." Hopefully that ends in more revenue for these under-appreciated artists.

CamiSu


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: Morticia
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 06:45 AM

I'm with Jen, I copy the odd song and say what album....if it's still available to buy.Our seedy's I give away quite happily to friends, and don't mind much if they copy them......we are in it for the fun, not the money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: Naemanson
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 07:15 AM

I used to do this in the bad old days, i.e., before I became involved in this funny music stuff. Back then I figured anyone who did this sort of thing must, by definition, be wealthy. Now I know a lot of artists and I cannot condone copying their recordings. It is indeed a form of theft.

However, there is one point on which I will make a recording of a CD and that is for myself. I do not have a CD player in my car. If I own a CD then I consider it mine to do with as I please and making a copy so I can listen to it in the car is OK in my books. Any input on THIS score?


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 07:29 AM

1. Yes it is stealing but I'm afraid I have copied and recieved a few copies over the past few years although these days I tend to just wait for presents and simply do without otherwise. My mum bought me one yesterday - nice CD - cost £12 - nearly 1/4 of my weekly income. Maybe if I start earning money again, my conscience will improve.

2. I think that the copying of individual tracks is likely to do the artist(s) far more good than harm.

3. If I was in the situation CamiSu was in where the artist made that offer, I would thank him/her very much! Oddly enough, if I was given such a copy, I would feel far more duty bound never to make a copy of the whole album for anyone else - my conscience must be weird!

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: gnu
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 08:00 AM

Recently, I exchanged tapes on a few occasions with a fellow to "give a listen". I enjoyed one so much that I copied it outright so that I could listen to it until I had a chance to purchase my own copy, only to find out it can only be had on CD now. So I'm going to have to wait until I get a CD player... but I am still listening to it.

However, when I told this fellow how guilty I felt about it, he responded that he does it all the time and thought that's why we were exchanging tapes. He copied all of the ones I loaned him and has no intention of purchasing any. No more exchanging tapes and I doubt if he'll play in my kitchen again... my Irish temper, again.

Naemanson... I think it's ok to make a "convenience" copy for your vehicle. No ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: hesperis
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:28 AM

I have been struggling with this recently, too. I think that anyone who has the money to buy the work and doesn't is stealing. If you don't have the money... how would you pay for it? It isn't a loss to the artist, because you couldn't have bought it anyway. And if the music is shared, at least that's another fan. Another person to spread the word about you, and tell all their friends to buy your work. (Hopefully.)

I have made my music available in mp3 format, so that the people who can't buy, can still listen.

It's up to everyone, for what they think is right, or just.


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: RichM
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:39 AM

Look at it as promotion.

Anyone who copies rather than buys, isn't going to change his mind about whether its right or wrong. -- BUT, he may be inclined to buy in the future.

Making a scene at a concert about this isn't something I would recommend. It's embarrassing to the other patrons, and could cause a fight.

We've discussed copying many times in Mudcat.
My impression is that some are in favour of copying, others not. Another impression is that most people have either copied or listened to a copy at some time.

If I were cynical I'd say this problem will be solved when everyone has a chip implanted to record what we listen to--and we get automatically charged a few cents every time we hear a song.

Rich


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:43 AM

No easy solution to this, is there? I have always taped copies for myself, but makies copies for others? Well, in the case of older, out of print stuff that no one knows how to find...sometimes....(but, now older stuff is being re-released on CD...do we burn those old tapes?)

And what if you'd sort of like to play it a couple times, but doubt it is a 'keeper'?....etc.etc.....you can 'define' stealing as any unauthorized copying, but there are obvious gray areas where definitions are awkward.

As I have said before, the problem is MUCH worse for the younger crowd whose music is mass produced and out of style in a few months. $15 a pop for dozens of new CDs a month is not easy.

Also....am I the only one who noticed how much prices jumped when we switched from vinyl to CDs? How much of that $15 or so is really justified by costs, and why is $15 a sort of 'standard' price?....Why isn't it $23 for some BIG name and $7 for Johnny Wannabe?..or even the other way around? (yes, I know there are some variations in price, but a lot of the pricing seems to be 'what the traffic will bear')......

All I know is, I buy a LOT less music anymore, as $15 makes a BIG dent in my budget....which means I don't get to hear stuff I'd like to, and I'm not comfortable with stealing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: hesperis
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 11:17 AM

The following is in Canadian dollars:

About $20 is "standard", but I have seen rereleases at $7 in bargain bins, and some artists charge $30, $35...

The cost of a massproduced CD, just the physical stuff, is probably less than a dollar, but a lot is spent for promotion, to persuade people to buy it. (And then a lot goes to pad the record company's bank account.) The "top" artist does't see much of that $20 at all... but if enough sell, then there's a living.

For indie CDs, like mine, the cost of one CD is astronomical, and the more money you have up front, the less it costs to make. One indie friend gets his made locally, $650 for 100 CDs, including art. ($6.50 each.) You could buy the supplies for 100 CDs (CDr, disc labels, jewel case labels) for about $350, making it $3.50 each. Or, if you have the money, you can get 1000 CDs for $1500. (At $1.50 each. If you have the money in the first place, and a way to sell that many!)

I am charging $5 per Artist CD to sell the CD on my site. And I will be charging more per compilation, on top of a production cost. Which will reduce the amount each artist gets from the compilation, but hopefully people will buy their individual CDs after hearing them on the compilation. Out of that $5 comes taxes, discounts, any promotion costs, etc. Fortunately the web space was donated. So I don't have to worry about that for at least a year. And I am going to have to charge shipping, which I didn't originally want to do. Oh, well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 02:13 PM

a lot of information there, but a lot not said..

" but a lot is spent for promotion, to persuade people to buy it." ..how much?

"(And then a lot goes to pad the record company's bank account.".....how much?

"The "top" artist does't see much of that $20 at all..."....how much?

specific answers to those are NOT required

I still am curious about the large price rise when record albums gave way to CDs...(that took art and cardboard and printing & shipping and promotion...etc....too)...and with records almost NO one could do it alone, except perhaps some promotion. Now CDs 'can' be done at home..(I know someone who is doing it).

Perhaps Sandy Paton, who has dealt with both records & CDs for many years, can shed some light. Is it just general inflation? Are folks compensating for digital copying/stealing? Are artists re-evaluating the value of their product? I truly do not know the answers to these things, but I see lots of 'products' today which raise questions in my mind.

(p.s...I also question whether Ice cream from Baskin-Robbins, Häagen-Daz, and Ben & Jerry's is a 'fair' price, or just pushed to the limit of what the yuppies will pay)

(p.p.s., I also have questions about the REAL cost of prescription drugs and hospital bills, but those are MUCH easier to complain about than struggling musicians, hmmm?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: GUEST,oj
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 03:32 PM

fifteen dollars may seem like a lot of money for cds but if you look at the prices of other commodities and inflation it might not work out that way. as i recall when vinyl went away we were paying around 8 or 9 dollars for a new record. that's been about 20 years ago now. and as far as the cost of indie cds, yes you can get 1000 discs manufactured for 1500 bucks but that's nowhere near the cost of the whole project. you can spend anywhere from 1000 to 10000 dollars on studio time, tape, extra musicians,etc. the artwork and graphic design doesn't come cheap if you don't happen to have a pal who is an artist. and if you're trying to promote your music, plan on giving away at least 250 of that thousand to radio stations, promoters, agents, and others who might be beneficial to you in the future. if you add all this up, the unit cost of that indie cd is closer to 10 dollars each so if he is lucky the artist may pocket 5 dollars. of course, if he's an indie artist a lot of that money goes in the gas tank of the rental car that he picked up at the airport after making the long distance phone calls to book the ....on and on and on. so quit yer bitchin and if you are actually a supporter of live and independant music buy a cd,if your friend needs one and can't afford it buy him one for a present and realize that the musician has to pay all the same bills you have, probably doesn't have health insurance and is trying to offer you entertainment, possible exposure to actual works of art and a bit of respite from your daily cares so please help them out a little without getting so worried about 5 or 10 bucks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: toadfrog
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 05:32 PM

I would think that compared to downloading the same or similar material from Napster (or one of its successors), recording a few songs from a CD is an extremely trivial form of "theft." It is reasonable to permit recording of some limited amount of material for your own use. The question is where to draw the line. And where line drawing is the issue, a good rule of thumb is to draw the line where the law says it should be drawn. So there must be a copyright lawyer out there somewhere; what does the law say is "fair use" of a song?


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 07:41 PM

Bottom line is that it is, indeed, stealing. Period. Taping a single cut may be petit larceny, but its still larceny. Either way, you're taking money out of the artist's pocket.

Some folks are comfortable with this, others not. But lets not call it something it isn't.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: hesperis
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 08:54 PM

I am making my own CDs of my own music at home. Those cost breakdowns were just for the physical CD. Eventually, one hopes that the expense of the studio time becomes a smaller portion overall, whereas the physical cost of the CD probably won't go to less than that $1500 for 1000.

And if you can do a half-decent home recording, you're just looking at the cost of your home system, and your time.

Maybe the cost of the art, cardboard, etc, was less back in the record days? I don't know. I do know that a lot more is spent on promotion now, especially for the big acts.

And again, if you honestly don't have the money to buy it, how is it taking any money from the artist? Are you spposed to not pay rent so that you can pay for music? Are you supposed to let your clothing go unwashed so that you can pay for music? Are you supposed to not get a cab so that you can go to your job, so that you can pay for music? Certain priorities are in order...

On the other hand, I create music partly because I wouldn't otherwise have access to enough of it. Because I don't have the money, and do have the time. But I really do not think it can be termed stealing when it would be impossible to pay for it.

Sometimes "legal" is not the same as "right", or even "moral", though it was originally designed to be all three.

But if you have never been poor, you are very unlikely to understand that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: Midchuck
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:08 PM

Why isn't it $23 for some BIG name and $7 for Johnny Wannabe?..or even the other way around? (yes, I know there are some variations in price, but a lot of the pricing seems to be 'what the traffic will bear')......

You've got it backwards. Johnny Wannabe (or Woodchucks' Revenge), not having the volume, has to sell CDs for more per unit to make a profit. Studio time, the artists' own time in recording and such, design, all that, are fixed costs that go down per unit as you sell more units. And you gotta give away a lot of units for promotional purposes, that you have to recover the cost of in the ones you do sell.

The only good thing for the small operator is that he gets most of the money himself. It doesn't get nibbled away by various corporate nibblers.

We have just recently reached break-even on our total costs for our first CD, which came out in August '96; and many who should know have told us we were lucky, because a first privately produced CD loses money the majority of the time.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: GUEST,CraigS
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:27 PM

I can recall mentioning to a venerable British accoustic performer that songs he had just performed sounded like someone else's performance. He replied that he had never heard of the ((someone else)) in question. A day later the ((someone else in question)) told me that he had exchanged CDs with the venerable British performer the previous year, at a festival where both were performing. That's what I call song-stealing! I have since seen the venerable British performer perform, and the songs in question were not part of the performance. Me, myself, I sometimes perform these songs, but that is because I have a very similar record collection to the ((someone else in question)). I make a point of asking people for permission to sing their songs, wherever possible. Even to the point of annoying Tom Paxton's roadie (but not, I would point out, Mr Paxton himself, who was fully understanding of what I was asking, and told the roadie to pipe down).

I don't agree with theft, but I can see situations where the performer would accede to the copying of his music to allow the perpetuation of that music, or where the poverty of the man who wants it would oblige him to give it away. The laws of copyright do not acknowledge the poor and unwaged, so he cannot do so formally. But he would not mind. On the other hand, there are very few people who own a computer capable of copying CDs who could be classified as poor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: campfire
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:52 PM

I'm going to agree with Naemanson on this. I make copies of CDs I have purchased in order to listen to them in my car. I do the same with vinyl records. I would NOT make a tape to give to someone else. (The exception being Grateful Dead tapes, which are openly copied and exchanged, apparently with the band's blessings.)

I exchange CDs (or tapes, or vinyl) with several friends, and as far as I know, we all adhere to the same rules. Listen to it; if you like it, put it on your "want list".

We also each have a few CDs that we bought because we liked the live concert (or were given as gifts, or whatever) that are in the "if you like this, then keep it" category. Better the CD live with someone who will listen to it than sit on a shelf unheard.

campfire


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:29 PM

But I really do not think it can be termed stealing when it would be impossible to pay for it.
ROFL!I can't pay for it, so its OK to steal it....Isn't this the classic excuse half the prison population have used a one time or another? You meant this as a joke- right?

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 11:17 PM

First you throw the dart, then you draw the bullseye.

First you decide what you'd LIKE to be the rule or logic, then you create a justification...*grin*...even the copyright laws reflect someone's attitude and self-interest.

"It all depends on whose ox is being gored"

Like I said, it ain't easy to walk thru moral minefields without a little *boom* now & then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: CamiSu
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:38 AM

Thank you all for making my point so well, particularly Hesperis, Peter, and Guestoj. I know that it is not cheap to make a recording, and I'm blessed if I know how people did it when thay got $5 for a cassette, and still had recording costs. I may print this out and give it to my friend who told me to just tape his CD, though I think he did get my point in the end.

And yes, I was a bit nervous about the thief getting more than vocally belligerent when my husband confronted him. But I hope maybe he will someday at least feel guilty about stealing intellectual property.

Brett, in an answer to your question about taping for use in your car, I would comment that Harvey Reed sells tapes of the proper length to do just that with his CDs. But he also emphasises that it is for your use only.

I must admit that when I gave away the Kallett-Epstien-Ciccone tape to the friends that liked it so much that it was a couple of years before the money and the opportunity to repurchase coincided.

This is also why I have not put any of my stories into the story book. I have permission to tell them, but not permission to publish same.

CamiSu


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: Proudson
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:43 AM

Iteresting thread..funny though ..the Dead never worried about bootlegs...For those who say that the times were different...I would strongly disagree...Kind of whimpy on the question.but if the artist is not known..then I would fimd every path to send the song..


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: CamiSu
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:28 AM

I think they might have worried if everyone bootlegged. And most of the artists I know aren't selling nearly as many CDs. But even if they are, they deserve their cut.

"Kind of whimpy on the question.but if the artist is not known..then I would fimd every path to send the song.. " ????? I think I missed this. Could you elaborate?

CamiSu


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: Proudson
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:48 AM

The Dead encouraged taping of the concerts..but..I digress..has nothing to do with this problem...


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: hesperis
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:01 AM

So I should sell my computer, and have NO way of earning money at all? Even occasionally?

I can't get a "normal" job because I get sick. Sorry. I have to live with it.

Everything I have, I was given. The people who gave to me were merely getting rid of their old stuff - should I have paid them for it so that I wasn't "stealing"? With what?

Until a friend gave me $20 this month, I had -$4.60 in the bank. And nothing is coming in. I have my apartment by the grace of friends. As if the government will give me enough money to live on! If they did, they would be admitting that their environmental policies have created people who cannot live normal, healthy lives. And big business would be liable. Since big business pays for campaigns, not people who have no money anyway, big business calls the shots. And the poor suffer.

Sorry, I was serious. Survival comes first. And while I'm merely survivng, music really helps to lift me out of the depression that comes from NOT being able to pull my own weight in this fucked up society.

I give when I can. And I know that it can never be enough to repay what I have been given. And yes, I would do this again. And so would they.

"It is more blessed to give than to receive" - ever wonder why? Because of the crap that people try to put on you if you're not on the giving end. If you have something to give, you're already blessed.

Oh, and by the way, I tend to stick to INDEPENDENTLY FREE music. But I'm not above thanking a friend for a mix tape, made especially for me.

...But as I said earlier, if you've never been poor, there's no way you'd understand.

So I'm not going to bother to try to explain it anymore. I just wish that it wasn't necessary for people to actually live in poverty to be capable of compassion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: SeanM
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:03 AM

To clarify something mentioned earlier -

Making copies of a recording you legally have acquired for your own personal use (in the United States) is currently considered "fair use" of the copyright protected materials. I know the laws cover this for audio materials, but am unsure about application to other formats.

Set the WayBack Machine - er - the SuperSearch to look for 'copyright' over the last couple years. You'll get more info than you'd ever be able to read. Kinda sad, really.

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: Proudson
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:09 AM

Well..is the computer a needed object if you are serious? If you are not willing to upload free mp3s...I would say no..Would love to listen to your music..I am sure that you can't find a way to play it out here though...Have dowloaded a lot of music..by muscians you would probable hate...only to go out and buy the CD,,


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: hesperis
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:37 AM

I have already uploaded free mp3s of my own music.

And I am selling my own CDs, and those of some local musicians online. I do not make all music available, but if someone really didn't have the money, I would probably let them tape my own stuff. Not the stuff of the Artists that I have contracted with to sell their stuff, of course. (If it was really necessary, then I would even ask the other Artists if the person could tape their stuff.) One of my Artists asked that his stuff not be made available as a free download, and I fully honour that request. (He was fine with 30-40 second samples, but his stuff isn't up yet.)

And now I need a credit card in order to get paypal activated, in order to be able to accept payments for the CDs online. So I'm kinda down right now. But I should probably get a credit card anyway, so that I can pay for some more blank CDs, and labels.

It seems like every way I try in order to earn some money is either illegal, or needs money before I can earn any. And I have already been given so much... that I can never repay. The web space and domain name were donated, and a printer, and the computer too, fer chissake! (Not all at once.)

Anyway, I would be pleased to share what I've got up with you. www.serpent-goddess.com Check out the site, and especially read the "about SG" part, so you know where I'm coming from. And the "news" and "artists" pages.

There's some seriously cool stuff up. Especially Roger Calverley's stuff. Gorgeous Celtic Harp! I can get anyone one or two full mp3s of his if you want it. Don't have space right now, because I had a CD ripping problem last week, and just put only my own stuff up so there'd be something up! But I'll be taking some of my stuff down next week to feature other Artists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: hesperis
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 03:01 AM

Hmmm, I had better clarify this: "It seems like every way I try in order to earn some money is either illegal..."

Last week, I called the bank to enquire about using a name other than my legal one to receive money. They said that I would have to get a business name registration. (never mind that my BANK CARD is itself in a name other than my legal name -already!) They also said that it would be perfectly fine for me to use my personal account for the other name, as long as I had a business name registration.

So, an anonymous angel donated the $68 for a business name search and registration.

When I went to the bank with registration in hand, they insisted that it would be illegal for them to let me use my personal account with a registered business name.

Business accounts cost a lot more money than personal accounts. I would have to sell four CDs per month merely to pay for the bank account, and that wouldn't even cover any other of the expenses.

And because they insisted previously that it would be ok, I went out and got the registration, which meant that I had to get a vendor's permit, and a whole lot of other hassles.

And now I need a credit card in order to get paid??? Let's see... annual fee, monthly charges... yum! It didn't say anywhere on the paypal site that you HAD to have a credit card when I signed up. It said that if you added a bank account, and verified it, you'd be set, even if you didn't have a credit card. So a couple of weeks later, after I change to use my personal name instead of the business name so that the bank will accept the payments, I find out that part of the service is for US only. If you are Canadian, you HAVE to register a credit card with them. Like, thanks for stating that right up front! AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHH!

Ok.. back to the subject. If anyone has as much money as I do, they can tape my stuff for free. Go right ahead. I'm serious. But if anyone has money, and likes my stuff, it would be a very good thing for me if they paid for the CD. And I would be really disappointed if they weren't paying for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:22 AM

Hesperis--- around here, you can open a personal account and just call it Special Account. I guess that doesn't solve anything about your name, though...

I make copies of CDs to have in my car, like several of you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:58 PM

Let's get real here - if one is so poor as to be depressed then you don't qualify. The bottom of the Maslow heap is NEEDS = food, shelter, clothing, and love. You have those. There are others who don't have that.

GregF is right on. Justify what you will, do what you will, but it is stealing.

All the best - -


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: GUEST,who needs Napster
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 03:12 PM

I've got a CD burner that cost $125, blank CD-R's cost less than a buck when you buy them in bulk and Tower's has a no-questions-asked returns policy.

So every week, I pick up a dozen or so CD's, burn copies, xerox the tray cards and booklet, cut them to size with a pair of scissors and voila, a perfect copy of the music and a close enough copy of the tray card and booklet.

Then I return the CD's to Tower's and pick up some more.

So far, I've copied 600 or so CD's at a cost, including the burner, of about $1.25 a CD.

Tower's puts new shrink wrap on the CD and sells it to the next guy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:07 PM

My ex-girlfriend used to do that with dresses (from Eaton's in Toronto)

Ughhhh.

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: SeanM
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 05:44 PM

/-----------------\
| |
| DO NOT FEED |
| THE |
| TROLLS |
| |
\_________________/
| |
| |
| |
\ | |
\\| |
\\ |
________\\_|_________________


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: SeanM
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 05:45 PM

*sigh* So much for copying someone's grand idea. Damn nonbreaking spaces.

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: Melani
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:36 PM

I also tape CD's for my own use, to play in my car. I know too many musicians to feel comfortable taping things to avoid paying for them, or allowing other people to do so. A friend once suggested taping EVERYTHING, to create what the library calls a "user cassette", so that the original is saved from wear and can be retaped when the user cassette wears out. I finally did this with a commercial tape after my car tape player, for some odd reason, ate three copies of it. I guess that brand of tape or whatever just wasn't compatible with my car system. It has no trouble with the homemade tape, and after buying four copies, I think I have paid my dues to that particular artist.

Most of the music I listen to is played in my car, due to competition from my family at home. I have a massive tape collection in the car, and CD's in my workshop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Taping CDs-Stealing?
From: hesperis
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 02:55 AM

Taping CDs for personal use is allowed under "fair use". Most software laws also allow you to make a backup copy for your own personal use, in case something happens to the original.

But because software companies CAN put protection on CDs, they do so, and a copy of that expensive software will not work without a crack. Cracks are illegal, but using one copy for personal use isn't. Go figure.


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 18 April 10:00 AM EDT

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