Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 06:35 AM

Hear! Hear! Sometimes it helps if you lean over and say "I hope you don't mind my eating when you're smoking"*BG* Oh Dear, there do seem to be a lot of anti-smoking postings just now, don't there.

L (cough cough) L

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 07:41 AM

"Spitting and smoking in this restaurant are prohibited"

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Mike Byers
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 08:07 AM

Here in Indiana many men seem to be born with "gimme hats" firmly attached to their heads; they never take 'em off and as far as I know are buried with 'em. If they're going to a fancy restaurant (one where most men wear a coat and tie) they'll usually wear a clean one, though. My group played for a wedding a few weeks ago and, sure enough, the "gimme hat" crew was in evidence, and evidently the clean hat rule doesn't apply to weddings. So I suppose what in my youth was considered bad manners is now considered entirely acceptable. Things change, I know, but I'd feel better if they'd at least wear a dark-colored "gimme hat" at funerals.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: LR Mole
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 10:07 AM

I sometimes wear a church when inside a car, myself, but only when smoking a Quaker. Actually, when with, or meeting, someone whose opinion, or ability, or kindness I value or admire, I look for ways to demonstrate respect. On the other hand, confronted by the hat police or the smoking regulators, I go out of my way to bother them. This is because I am childish, but so what?

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 11:06 AM

Was it George Washington who said, "Manners is nothing more than an effort to make others comfortable" ??

It bugs me to see males in restaurants with caps on. What bugs me even more is, why do I give a damn?

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 12:36 PM

I am not follicaly challenged, I am not differently hirsute, I'm flipping BALD! (Take a look...)

My head gets COLD when I don't wear a hat in a overly air-conditioned restaurant. What's it to ya? There is no logical reason for it. (Manners often fly in the face of logic)

If you don't believe in wearing hats inside, don't! Leave me the FLICK alone and mind your own beeswax!

Wincing Devil   >;-( I'm too sexy for my hair; that's why it isn't there

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:23 PM

What's a "gimme hat"? - it sounds like the sort you'd hold out when you were begging in the hope people would put money in it.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Grab
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:25 PM

It's amazing. Women can wear trousers, miniskirts or bikinis. Men can go for plastic surgery to improve their looks. Both sexes can go for body pearcing and tattoos. And no-one thinks that any of this affects the person's character. But wear a hat indoors, and suddenly you're a rude and disrespectful oaf.

Get a grip, folks. Why should this matter?

You only think that it's bad manners bcos you've been told it's bad manners. No-one, in this entire thread, has raised the possibility that they simply don't know. I certainly never knew about it until I read some Victorian-era novels, and my reaction was "how petty". In the UK in particular, you'll hardly ever see someone wearing a hat - the odd cloth cap amongst older men, maybe, but apart from that, hats are a mere affectation to fit a fashion (this includes baseball caps), so "manners" such as tipping one's hat to a lady are similarly affected, not a natural response.

Kendall's last post says it all - codified manners is merely a way of creating a group of ppl whom you can dislike. In NO way do codified manners equate to politeness, moral behaviour, or being pleasant to others. I'd say Jeepman's first line is exactly wrong - I have always thought that these were pretty well accepted as being dead as a dodo. Do you also look down on women who don't stick their little finger out when drinking their cup of tea? Or ppl whose glass touches their nose when they're drinking? Or who scoop their soupspoon towards them instead of away from them? I sincerely hope that everyone can answer "no" to these...

Or is it just the case that the Old World (England) is moving with the times, and the New World (the US) is stuck in the past? ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: late 'n short 2
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:30 PM

Mike, help me out here. What's a "gimme hat"? Maybe we have the same thing in NJ but call it something else.

Dan

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Bardford
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:43 PM

Um, Wincing Devil - I hate to break this to you, but that isn't a hat. I think it might be a ferret. And it fell off.Allow me to be the first to state that I have no opinion on the wearing of vermin in public places.

One thing I might add though, is that hats, in days of yore, could generally be relied on to differentiate age groups.Look at old photos of hockey or baseball games, or street scenes. Men in fedoras, boys in caps. Now, in North America, anyway, a lot of adult men dress pretty much as their adolescent sons do.Am I alone in noticing this?
Good day to you all(tipping my hat)
Bardford

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:48 PM

I think that wearing hats or caps indoors is rude and the people who do this have very little manners and so do the people who approve of such a thing.

And this wearing the hats backwards, when I was a boy the only people who did this were either drunk, or completly off their heads.

However if there are people out there who think that wearing hats inside I feel sorry for you

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:56 PM

I think that wearing hats or caps inside any building is rude and Ill mannered, unless it's it has something to with relgion then it's all right.

Young people now a days have very little manners today and so some adults as well.

I was brought to be well mannered and it doesn't hurt to be polite towrds people.

I was in Australia and this friend of the family out there couldn't get over how polite I was.

So if there is anyone out there who doesn't like what I've written then I'm sorry if I've upset you Thank you very much. Tom

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 02:09 PM

If you haven't got a cap you can't take it off, as a way of saying something, and you can't keep it on as a way of saying something else; and you can't throw it in the air or wave it, no matter how excited or exhuberant you are feeling - you are in fact depriving yorself of a significant communication tool. .

It's a bit as if you had dogs insisting on having their tails docked.

And you get a lot colder on a chilly day, all over, because that's where you lose the heat.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 02:55 PM

Busbitter:

I just want to know, other than someone having told you that it's rude, why you think it's rude?

What is INTRINSICALLY impolite about wearing a hat indoors?

Wincing Devil   >;-( A Hat is a LOT cheaper than a toupee

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 04:05 PM

Good question Devil, God, I hope it isn't a control thing.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 04:07 PM

Good question Devil, God, I hope it isn't a control thing.If I see something I like in a restaurant, a nice looking woman, a well mannered child etc, I look. If I see something I dont like, I dont look.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 04:30 PM

I did not read any posts to this thread yet but I intend to read the whole thing tomorrow after work. In the meantime, I just want to say that I ALWAYS take my hat off upon entering my mother's house or upon entering any house if she is present. I really don't consider it bad manners to keep my hat on - women don't remove theirs. However, my mother does, and she's the only one that I know that can smack a 260# Irishman and get a thank you in return.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Rollo
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 04:59 PM

Rules how to behave were neccessary once, when society was divided into classes. To know how to behave in a certain situation, in the presence of certain persons, gave you comfort.

Nowadays most of uns live in societies that declare (theoretically) all human beings to be equal. Everyone knows (or oght to know) there are no longer persons superior or inferior to yourself. There is no reason to be nervous about showing the right amount of respect. Therefore it is no longer neccessary to follow special rules about courtesy. But still it is important to show respect at all! I wear my sailors cap nearly allways outside. I do not take it off when greeting or talking to a lady, because only a few people still wear a hat or cap, and so it is not common practice to remove it. But for sure I give my respect by at least nodding and uttering a greeting, if not reaching out for a handshake. I feel it`s inapropriate to wear a cap inside a room, so I remove it.

But showing respect also means to accept someone other having different manners. If he does not respect me, I will recognice it whether he wears his hat or not.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From:
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 05:23 PM

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From:
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 05:27 PM

Sorry...fat finger syndrome hit the wrong key. I believe that a "gimme hat" is one that has an advertising logo on it...but I KNOW I've seen "John Deere" hats in stores!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 05:50 PM

Do you have "hat tricks" in America? (In case you don't, it's when someone scores three times - three goals, three wickets, whatever), and they used to pass the hat round to collect money as a reward.)

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 08:30 PM

Mcgrath when a player in hockey scores a hat trick it is cutomary to throw your hat onto the ice. McGrath I think he means by a Gimmehat is a baseball cap that looks as if it has been passed down the generations,never washed and the bill bent in a curve. Busbitter if I meet you in a restaurant and treat you with nothing but respect would you still treat me differently because I am wearing a hat. Jon freeman about licking the gravy off your plate reminds me of the time when I was a kid and we were all at a restuarant and my Mom was trying to act all prim and proper and get us to do the same and my Dad when we were finished with the meal had me and my three sisters lick are plates clean and he did the same

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Mike Byers
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 09:31 PM

The term "gimme hat" comes from folks walking into the feed store, John Deere(a popular midwestern US make of farm machinery)dealer, etc. where they have free hats with appropriate advertising and saying "Gimme one a'them hats." William Gibson, the SF writer, coined the term "meshback" (from the design of the hat)to describe the culture of the wearers of these in one of his near-future novels, e.g. "Smoking...yeah, it's sort of a meshback thing." Some students of the "gimme hat" culture believe the practice of wearing them backwards came about when the wearers wished to display the high-technology "one size fits all" feature.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 04:11 AM

The reason why i think it's rude is because I was brought up to beleive that taking your hat or cap off indoors was being polite. And Keeping it on unless for religious grounds then it's rude.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 06:24 AM

In other words, you have no reason other than someone TOLD you so. While that is not a logical reason, in my opinion, I will always take my hat off if I were to go to your house, out of respect for you, but in public, I just don't get it.

Wincing Devil   >;-( "The cat was created when the lion sneezed." - Arab myth

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 07:03 AM

How about taking your shoes off in someone's house? (There are quite a few people who go in for that, even aside from when muddy boots are involved.)

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 07:26 AM

I just think it's courteous towrds other people.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:41 PM

I always wondered why it's impolite to put one's elbows on the table, or to sing at table. Seems like singing at table could be uplifting and festive.

I don't bother about the hats, like I said, unless it's obstructing a view. One time, though, I sat behind a lady at a bluegrass show whose HAIR was obstructing my view. I couldn't rightly ask her to take it off. But could big hair be considered rude?

I believe in the epistles of Paul, he said that men should go uncovered in church, and women should have something on their heads. This is probably where the whole thing started.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: MMario
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:47 PM

the shoe thing in private homes - y'know it's all what people are used to; in some homes it would be extremely rude to REMOVE your shoes, while in others it would be the height of rudeness NOT to remove your shoes.

rule of thumb - watch your hosts...and even if they currently have shoes on - presence or lack of a big pile of different shoes next to the doorway is a good clue as to normal custom.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST,Souter
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 07:10 PM

I was always told that one doesn't put one's elbows on the table because then everyone else is crowded out of their seats. I was also told that it is the epitome of bad manners to correct other people's manners in public and if the behavior didn't affect me pesonally I shouldn't get all offended looking. If soneone comes in wearing a hat, and it bothers me, I ignore it. I'm not being harmed by the hat. If the hat is a ten foot monstrosity at a concert and I can't see the stage, I move. I try to be tolerent of ignorant people. Life's easier like that.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Dave Swan
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 07:41 PM

I'm trying to discipline myself to wear a hat more often in an attempt to hide from the sun's damaging effects. I'm pretty comfrotable with hat off indoors, or when in the presence of a lady, that sort of thing, but I had to do research about hat etiquette in that most sacred of places...one's watering hole. I asked my dad, who grew up wearing fedoras, and looked pretty snappy as a plainclothesman in the 1940's, how hats were handled at the bar. He told me that when standing at the bar, hats were seldom, if ever, removed. When seated near the bar, hats were removed somewhat more frequently. Of course, ladies were not seen in these establishments. Kind of an interesting peek at the 1930's through the 50's, I thought.

Steinbeck described Doc Ricketts as a man who would tip his hat to passing dogs. I've always liked that image.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: hesperis
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 08:28 PM

Well, I'm a lady, even when I am being a bitch. (Both the angry and sexual connotations of the word.) And I am a mere 22 years old.

I wear a hat, usually straw, except when I'm at home. I get a lot of stares, because most women don't wear hats around here. I don't take it off indoors unless I'm sitting down, because otherwise I'll put it somewhere and forget to take it with me when I leave!

I have met very few guys who look good in a baseball cap. I have met MANY guys who think tey do look good in a baseball cap. They should get a female opinion on that one!

As for shoes, I usually take mine off in my own home, and don't elsewhere, unless asked to do so. And if I haven't vacuumed lately, I'll warn you not to take your shoes off when you visit!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Ringer
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 05:06 AM

Just read (the early part of) this thread for the first time. Re chemotherapy and it's unfortunate side-effects, may I relate a story? I have a bell-ringing friend, Sue, who, with a toddler & a babe in arms, was diagnosed, about a year ago, with breast cancer. I happened to meet her early one morning, while it was still dark, just before Christmas as I was walking the dog and she was walking to work. She hailed me with "Hey, look, I've got even less hair than you, now", and took off her cap (it was frosty) to reveal a shining dome. And under the street-lamp, her pate glittered. She'd stuck silver stars on it for the Christmas party at work that afternoon! She is one brave lady. (I saw her at a ringing practice last Tuesday: hair grown again, and she seems as good as new; but, of course, she's not out of the wood yet.)

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:40 AM

Elbows on tables

If you look at the one or two histories of etiquette, this had a very practical implication. Originally, tables were trestles. If you rested your elbow on the table, you were in danger of possibly overturning the trestle with all the resultant hassle and general mess.

Many of the other things which are now regarded as "manners" were originally practical in this way.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:14 AM

OhMyGawd!!!
I had no idea so many things were bad manners.
And as for that one about the nose not touching the drinking glass......now how am I ever going to achieve that with a hooter my size??
If I get a hat with a really big brim perhaps I could hide my nose when drinking.
As to standing for the National Anthem - that would depend on how you were feeling about the nation at the time. I don't approve of automatic responses.
I prefer honesty to manners every time - then at least you know where you are. My mum is unfailingly polite and well- mannered, but its hellish difficult to find out what she really wants to do when she will insist on aquiescing to everything.
I think its nice to conform to a set of manners if you know it will please a particular someone (eg your mum..), but I can't be bothered with trying to work out all the ins & outs of etiquette. I don't have that much time.

Kris

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: forty two
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 12:04 PM

Now certainly it is part of his image but Paddy Keenan says he wears his hat because it "captures the sound" and he hears the music better. I'll put up with a hat indoors if that is the result.

But what really annoys me is the guy driving in front doing 20 mph. He always wears a hat!!! Now there is such a thing as road etiquette!!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: forty two
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 12:04 PM

Now certainly it is part of his image but Paddy Keenan says he wears his hat because it "captures the sound" and he hears the music better. I'll put up with a hat indoors if that is the result.

But what really annoys me is the guy driving in front doing 20 mph. He always wears a hat!!! Now there is such a thing as road etiquette!!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Charmion
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 01:27 PM

Many manners conventions arise from the need to demonstrate "no offence" -- for example, taking off your hat to greet someone, taking off gloves when shaking hands and, more recently, taking off sunglasses when meeting someone for the first time. Without the hat, gloves and sunglasses, your face is clearly visible and your hands are obviously empty. Thus, your interlocutor can see that, should you strike him or her, you are unlikely to do extensive damage, and she or he can pick you out of the police mug-book later.

My pet peeve is the ever-so-self-consciousness of the ball cap worn backwards or sideways, especially by someone who is consequently squinting into the sun. It looks fake to me and, as such, a sure sign of somebody I would rather not know.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 04:59 PM

Kris, there's any amount of dumb "etiquette" stuff out there. Seriously, I remember seeing a program with some stuff shirt saying the polite way to eat grapes - you don't strip them off the bunch, you cut a small branch off the bunch with (and I kid you not!) a pair of grape scissors, these being scissors designed for cutting grape stems!

Next time anyone complains about lack of old-fashioned manners around me, I'll start eating with my hands and throw the bones over my shoulder. You want "old-fashioned manners", that's what you'll get... ;-)

There are practical aspects to some things - for instance, eating with your elbows held at your side makes sense, cos when you eat at a canteen (at work or school) you'll be unpopular if your elbows are whacking the noses of your neighbours! Or restraining farts in enclosed environments such as lifts. But if there's no relevance to it, then why should anyone bother?

Graham.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:32 PM


John In Remote Kansas (JIRK) on LIK's cookie

In the traditions of old-time farmers, a GIMME anything is something that is FREE, usually with some sort of advertising on it. Some years back, the traveling reps for farm machinery were one of the most common sources, and would leave things like hats, aprons, yardsticks, coffee mugs, and such with the local Feed and Seed or grocery store.
Hats were always one of the most popular items, because anyone who spends a lot of time outdoors under the sun MUST wear one.
The real cowboys spend a lot of time up on a horse, and can afford to get a nice hat. The guy that's chasing the back end of a mule (or riding a Massey Fergusen) while he tries to hold a plow blade in the dirt is going to go through several hats in a season, so he might just as well wear the GIMME.

As to taking the hat off in public - when you have been in the sun all day, every day, with a hat on, taking the hat off reveals a forehead - sometimes extensive - that has all the virgin pristine glow of a baby's bottom. It is a little like revealing any other part of your body that is normally clothed. I have known a number of good men who would avoid entering a place where they might feel obligated to remove their hat because IT IS AS EMBARRASSING to them as displaying a nose or navel ring - or any other PRIVATE part of their anatomy.

The backward ball cap is a convenience in some cases, since modern farming requires the occasional use of safety glasses, ear protectors, respirators (dust filters) and such, and getting them on and off is much easier without the projecting bill in front.
The more modern generation may do it this way just to be "cool," but then they're dumb enough to PAY EXTRA for stuff with someone's advertising on it.

As for those few of us who aren't in the fields all day and still choose to wear a hat (not a cap), in most public places like restaurants and bars there AINT NO PLACE TO PUT IT if you take it off, so for the most part I'll leave mine on, thank you.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: JudeL
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 01:07 PM

Bald Eagle, I love your story about your friend and the stars & I too salute her courage and I am glad that she is getting better and hope that her progress continues. Yesterday I heard that while I was away last week another friend had lost his fight against cancer. Although we all knew he was ill, none of us expected the end to come this soon. I will miss his company and his ability to cut right through all the waffling bullshit going on around us to say what he belived was right, but most of all I think I will miss his dry sense of humour and that glint in his eye that invited you to be amused at the pomposity of some speaker. And DAMMIT it still doesn't seem possible that he's gone !*^$%£^%&%^*
And now having got all melancholy and maudlin I think it's time I stopped, went down the pub for a pint and find a friend to hug.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:28 PM

Then eat at home!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Gurney
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:38 AM

What a lot of posts!
'Manners' seem to me to be a kind of arbitrary social oil for a very local group. Trouble is, lots of us live in a global society. So, if a woman covers her hair in church, or her whole body in the street, if a man uncovers his head in church, won't eat if there is a woman at the table, burps loudly after a meal, it's all good manners SOMEWHERE.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Ringer
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 07:41 AM

Sue is still fine, JudeL. I saw her ringing only last Saturday. Though only a small lady, she can handle heavy bells better than almost anyone I know (and was doing so).

(PS: I changed my Mudcat nom de plume from Bald Eagle.)

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 07:41 AM

As McGrath says way back in the thread, we Quakers had a tradition about keeping hats on. As a plain Friend I often (daily) go about with a broad brimed Quake lid. However, I do take it off in Restaurants and even before meeting, when in the old days you'd see us all with hats on in meeting. As someone would rise to speak in meeting, all the hats would come off, until the speaker would sit, and they would all go back on, but I have never seen that. that was years ago, though I had a sort of quaint niceness, wouldn't mind seeing it again, perhaps. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 09:45 AM

May I suggest that most of the current hat wearers grew up un an era when there WERE no rules for the wearing of hats? Their parents had abandoned them, they were not passed on. Recent generations will restore or invent rules as they see the need. Isn't this more or less how it started in the first place?

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 11:47 AM

There are certain ways in which one can indicate that one is civilized. Or not.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 11:53 AM

My ex-father in law used to call a cap worn backward unnecessarily an "F A hat," as he believed that anyone who would wear one that way was clearly a F***ing A*****e. Now, it's a fashion statement. But style, at least around here, seems to be driven by the bottom of society.

Back in the 60's when we were out in the field as surveyors, transit men would reverse the cap to keep the brim out of the way. In the older films, I don't recall ever seeing a cameraman working with his cap brim forward, for the same reason. The rest of the time, the caps were worn forward.

The question of removing a cap for the flag or other group situation is clearly a statement of whether the wearer considers that he [since this is a male issue] is part of or respects the group.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: CapriUni
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 12:31 PM

From Larry:

As McGrath says way back in the thread, we Quakers had a tradition about keeping hats on. As a plain Friend I often (daily) go about with a broad brimed Quake lid. However, I do take it off in Restaurants and even before meeting, when in the old days you'd see us all with hats on in meeting.

As it was explained to me (If you've heard a different history, Larry, I'd like to hear it), the practice of taking a hat off indoors started in the Middle Ages, or thereabouts, when it was required for lower born people to take their hats off in the presence of a fuedal lord (and use the formal "you" and "ye" instead of the familiar "thou" and "thee").

But the teaching of the Friends is that we all have the Spirit of Christ within, and therefore are all equal, and so for that reason, they kept their hats on (and also, for that reason, used "thee" and "thou" in their speach instead of "you" and "ye"). Removing the hat when someone is speaking in Meeting is a sign of respect of the Spirit of Christ, who is speaking though them.

The wearing of hats and the use of thee and thou have been dropped by many Friends these days, simply because the social context, and therefore, the meaning of these symbols, has changed.

But I know several Friends who still will not use "Mr." or "Mrs. Miss, Ms." in formal address, because these are all contractions of Master and Mistress... and only God is our Master. Instead, in formal adress, they will use the person's full name (Instead of saying: "Hello, Mr. Smith" they will say: "Hello, John Smith").

...It really blew my grandmother away, when, in the early 1900's my grandfather introduced her to the family as "Josephine Andrews" -- she was her own person, and not just her father's daughter! (Imagine That!)

Mostly, though, since as Gurney pointed out:

So, if a woman covers her hair in church, or her whole body in the street, if a man uncovers his head in church, won't eat if there is a woman at the table, burps loudly after a meal, it's all good manners SOMEWHERE.

And since we cannot know, by looking, why people show the manners that they do (and I'm using that term in the broadest sense possible, as in habits), I think it is most polite of us to assume that they are not being impolite... ;-)

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Jeanie
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 12:37 PM

According to the costume department at the Theatre Museum, Covent Garden, the origin of a gentleman doffing his hat when greeting a lady was that he had a secret stash of scented herbs hidden in the crown of the hat - by waving the hat around as the lady got into sniffing distance, the hope was that she wouldn't be able to tell that he hadn't had a wash since 1542. Good idea !

- jeanie