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BS: You can't trust the US (military)!
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BS: You can't trust the US (military)! |
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Subject: You can't trust the US (military)! From: GeorgeH Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:03 PM I just saw another "Bush scares me" thread here, so I thought I'd share this with you . . If only for geographical reasons most of you won't have seen the Correspondent programme on BBC last night (it's certainly the best Current Affairs series on UK television these days). This was more than usually enlightening . . . Ever since the European "Rapid Reaction Force" was set up, as a rival to Nato (sorry, to "complement" Nato), I'd wondered why that idea had gone through so smoothly; this programme provided some of the answers. It concerned the duplicity of the US military towards her "allies" during the Balkan crisis. Sticking with her star achievements . . . a) The US's main role was to supervise a "no fly" policy in the area, partially intended to enforce a UN embargo on supplying arms to any of the fighting parties. However the US had decided (unilaterally) that she didn't agree with the UN policy and so - behind the backs of her allies - she decided to arm the Muslim army (what is it about the US and muslims??). To allow this re-arming the US stood down the AWAX monitoring she was running as part of the Nato operation, put up her own independent AWAX and under cover of this flew an arms drop into the area. (And put on a flying display to distract the locals from the drop . . ) b) It seems the US was concerned that the routing surveilance/intellegence operations in the area would produce evidence of her "dirty tricks". So she simply turned off the supply of this information to Nato and specific of her "allies" - including Britain and Norway, with whom she has additional specific treaties to supply this material (in return for our providing sites for the monitoring equipment). It might have kept us "in the dark" over the US activities (except it seems we were already well aware of them); it also increased the very real risks to Nato forces "on the ground". With friends as trustworthy as these we certainly don't need any enemies . . . For info, try: Click here And before anyone says it, I do make a very clear distinction between the US military, Government and her people - especially 'catters . . Cheers! George |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: Kim C Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:24 PM Maybe the Generals have their heads on backwards... but remember it's the privates and NCOs that do the dirty work, and I would trust my friend the Sergeant any day of the week. |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: GeorgeH Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:04 PM Yes, I've no problem with that, Kim . . indeed the retired European military persons interviewed sometimes suggested much the same . . The problem, as ever, is the politicians rather than the guys on the ground! (Not that the US "no risk to our boys" policy helps, but that's another matter. G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: Kim C Date: 25 Jun 01 - 03:13 PM You are right about that George. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: Mrrzy Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:30 PM *sigh* why am I not surprised? |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: katlaughing Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:43 PM Hi, Geroge, thanks for making us aware of this. I believe your thread title is unfortunate. I know you've said it's the pols, generals, etc., but the title does not make that distinction. My niece and her husband just finished a tour of five years in Italy and I know he was responsible for all of the tires on all of the planes out of Aviano, from where many flights to the areas you mention flew. He has just shipped out to South Korea. I can assure the young families out there who make up the US Military have no knowledge of the machinations of the bigwigs. Be that good or not, I do resent the implication of your title and you know I am NOT that pro-military. It's just close to home. Again, though, I do thank you for the link and information. We need a non-violent revolution in this country; politics have become so disgusting, it's no wonder people feel disenfranchised and that their vote is worthless. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: GUEST Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:51 PM " 'No risk to our boys' policy" ??? In the US, we see "newsmagazine" TV programs that fairly frequently profile military personnel whose lives have been put at risk and who have sustained injury; the military's health programs are not only not adequately treating these injuries but are denying that the injuries were sustained during a military operation! Can't trust the US military? So what else is new? |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: Grab Date: 25 Jun 01 - 05:33 PM "No risk to our boys policy"!!! Such as carpet-bombing targets from 30k feet, which minimises risk to the pilots, but maximises the chance of bombs landing on civilians. And carpet-bombing in the first place, when the bombing has no effect on moving the bombees out of the area they're occupying. The generals on the ground are not always the issue either - witness Michael Rose, who had the misfortune to be technically "in command" of forces in Bosnia but was stopped by his political bosses from using his troops to protect the civilians, and had to sit and watch while they were massacred. Poor bastard - either you break orders, in which case you get booted out damn near immediately (a 2-seater jet with a new General could get from England to Bosnia in a couple of hours, easy), or you break your heart following them. I'm interested in the near-fanatical US opposition to the EU RRF. On the one hand, the US government has made it pretty clear that they don't want to be involved in peace-keeping operations, particularly in areas like Europe where other countries closeby also have a military presence; and yet on the other hand they complain when the European countries do something about it. One possible reason could just be that the European armies have got the right idea, and the US Army is miffed that they didn't think of it first... The other reason is that the US military might need some cutbacks if it becomes apparent they're overstaffed now the EU RRF can take some of the load, since military cutbacks are always a hot issue. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: GUEST,Joe Date: 25 Jun 01 - 08:42 PM hello I personally feel we should stay out of others business.To often are government has been willing to send our troops to places we didn't need to be.I thought the UN was to insure peace in the world and it was to follow a specific code. So why in the hell are we always going into these places.I also feel if we are called in we shouldn't be sitting targets. I feel we shouldn't but if it is absolutely necessary then we should have a fighting chance.You know though maybe it was because we were criticized during WW2 for our lack of involvement so now we have to make up for it.who knows what the powers that be think all I know is when it comes down to it the little guy always carries the load. |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: Jeri Date: 25 Jun 01 - 09:49 PM As some have already pointed out, it's not the military that's responsible for what they do - it's the politicians. The decision to get involved is based on policy, and the national policy is most often driven by money and power. So George, as for knowing the difference between the government and the military... Pedantic point: it's "AWACS." There, I feel better now. The thing is, if a government has the power to do something there's very little stopping them from using it, other than concience and the rest of the world, and governments don't have conciences. Kat, hope niece and nephew-in-law are at Osan. If so, tell them to stop by Public Health and say "Hi" to Mrs Kim (Kim Sun Sin) and Miss Kwak (don't have her whole name) for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: thosp Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:00 PM what was that Eisenhower said when he left office? anyone remember? peace (Y) thosp |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: thosp Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:05 PM After reading this book I realized how prescient President Eisenhower was when he delivered his farewell speech on leaving office. Some pertinent remarks were: '...we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence...by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist...we must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together...' peace (Y) thosp
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: thosp Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:19 PM for complete text (hopefully)try this blueclicketything peace (Y) thosp |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: thosp Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:23 PM or thisblueclicketything i hope |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: artbrooks Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:29 PM While I didn't see the program referred to in the first post, and the BBC generally (or is that historically) deserves a lot of respect, many highly respected news shows on US television (e.g., "60 Minutes") often make statements that are dubious at best. This may be one of those cases where the lies are in the omissions, however. It sounds as though the Balkan conflict being discussed was the most recent iteration of the Serbs vs. the Croats vs. the Bosnians. If my memory serves me, the Serbs and Croats essentially had the Yugoslavian Army split between them and the Bosnians (who weren't all Moslems by any means...and not muslems, who are a different group all together) had little else than the Mauser that grandfather had taken from a German in 1943. There was a lot of discussion at the time about the arms embargo having no impact on the Serbs (who were regularly resupplied from Belgrade) and not much on the Croats, but it was preventing the Bosnians from effectively defending the city of Serajevo. If the US political leadership decided to bring arms in, good for them. As previously noted, it would be very unlikely for the decision to have been made by the military without political approval, unless the general involved was seriously interested in premature retirement at a lower rank. |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: Coyote Breath Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:30 PM You over-the-water folks ought to LIVE here. We can't trust the military, the IRS, the FBI, the NSA, the ATF and so on ad nauseum. Consider. Ruby Ridge, Waco The Black Panther murders, and ad etc. I trust my next door neighbor, and most of the people in my small (1,800 souls) town. I don't even trust my COUNTY government. But that is what "eternal vigilance" is all about. Descriptions I've read of the laws of the British Isles have scared me, don't they scare you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: katlaughing Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:34 PM Jeri, they don't let families go over anymore, at least not in the Air Force. My niece and her son are living with my sister, bet, for the next year. I will ask her next time I talk to her, where he is and get his email, so I can pass on your hellos. Thanks, it'd be ncie for him to have a connection like that to make right away.:-) Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: InOBU Date: 26 Jun 01 - 07:56 AM Hi George: I'd subtract the word US and say you just cant trust the military, or government's per se. Remember that Churchill's order to hang any captain of an unarmed English PASSINGER vessel that surrendered to a U Boat on the surface, without an attempt to ram said vessle, would be treated as a capitol offence during WWI leading to unrestricted submarine warfare and the loss of the Lusitania. And I seem to remember the sacrifice of Coventry's population... It is the old oximoron, military intelligence at work. Cheersmadears Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: Matt_R Date: 26 Jun 01 - 08:49 AM Jeri, I was gonna say the same thing lol. When we lived on Okinawa, it was an everyday thing to see the big AWACS E-3 from Kadena Air Base coming in for a landing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: Peter T. Date: 26 Jun 01 - 08:55 AM It is worth noting (as only Tom Friedman in the New York Times seems to have done) that the American military has become so terrified that last week they literally fled from 3 Arab countries -- the Yemen, Bahrain, and Jordan -- because they had vague intelligence reports that some terrorists might possibly be thinking about doing something to them sometime. The F.B.I. and escorts left Yemen (they were investigating the Cole), ships of the Fleet steamed away from Bahrain, and the U.S. Marines (The MARINES!) on exercises packed up and left, so frightened were they. It is almost enough to make you sorry for them. yours, Peter T. P.S. The reasons for not warning Coventry have been hashed out many times -- it hardly warrants the bashing of military intelligence or beating up on Churchill (who said and did many foolish things while saving the free world). |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: pavane Date: 26 Jun 01 - 08:57 AM Remember, just because you are paranoid, it doesn't mean they are NOT out to get you... |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: RichM Date: 26 Jun 01 - 09:12 AM Everyone in any military force shares responsibility for its actions. Granted, politicians are the leaders. But generals, and to lesser degrees, everyone under them is responsible as well. At least, since the Nuremburg trials.
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: GeorgeH Date: 26 Jun 01 - 10:54 AM Sorry, RichM, I disagree . . If you sign on, you have to obey orders . . the circumstances where you are permitted not to do so - even since Nurenburg - are very limited, and in many circumstances "obeying orders" IS an adequate defence (of course the more senior you are the less this holds true). I'm not too keen on Military (OK, it shows) but on balance we do need them . . but I wish to hell we'd make their leaders, and our political leaders, more accountable . . Yes, I do distrust ALL "forces which are under direct Government control" (does that place responsibility in the right place, folks . . ?) artbrooks, why not follow the link before judging its journalistic message. And whatever your personal view (mine is that shipping weapons into a war is usually going to make things worse) it is indefensible for any Government to be conducting two different policies at the same time, and to be deceiving its supposed allies. All too often the US's belief in its own superior judgement in "World affairs" leads to many thousands of additional deaths - often amongst those they are seeking to help. Certainly the Balkans is an immensely complex problem. Western "bungling" has, almost certainly, added considerably to the death toll. The US is certainly not uniquely at fault here, but IMO this particular report was particularly interesting, not least because of the light it sheds on the formation of the European Rapid Reaction Force. Now if the US would care to get its military out of Europe and out of Nato that, too, would be fine by me - but that is another matter. Finally - apologies to the un-named Guest - the "no risk to our boys" policy was an over-simplification, and I do accept your point. Indeed, friendly fire is just as deadly as enemy fire, but less likely to be "owned-up" to. G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: RichM Date: 26 Jun 01 - 06:14 PM When you deliver your conscience into the hands of your superiors, you-and your society- are in trouble. And I still maintain that each person is responsible for his/her actions. I know its more convenient to say 'I was just following orders' ...(where did I hear that before?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: Jeri Date: 26 Jun 01 - 06:31 PM As far as obeying orders, US military members don't have to obey orders that are illegal. Once they are court martialed, if all goes well, they'll be exhonerated. The problem with blaming the "little guy" for what a country as a whole is doing is that the little guy often has no idea what the big picture is. The real mission and its pupose maybe be classified. The little guy fixes aircraft or trucks, answers the phone, replaces wiring, etc, just like he does anywhere. The little guy is told the same reason you are for why he's wherever he is. The little guy, in this case, was supporting supervision of the no-fly zone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Jun 01 - 06:36 PM Of course the corollory to "I was only obeying orders" is "There is no record of my having given those orders." Nod and a wink stuff. "You know what to do..."
The bottom line is, or should be, that you carry responsibility for anything troops under your command do. And that applies right up to the top of the command structure, which in the USA is the President. And you carry full responsibility for anything you do as well, and that applies all the way down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: Matt_R Date: 26 Jun 01 - 06:46 PM Well, I'll be happy to inform my dad who fixed cargo trucks and forklifts for 20 years that he is responsible for every mistake the U.S. military made from 1980 to 1999. And that he pissed off a bunch of Brits! |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Jun 01 - 01:20 PM If the trucks broke down because he hadn't done the job properly, he'd have been responsible and held responsible; if people working under his direction whomhad the job of fixing them screwed things up so the trucks broke down, and he'd been goofing off and letting them get away with doing a crappy job, he'd be responsible as well. And I imagine he'd see it that way. My father would have, when he was doing the same kind of job in the 8th Army.
All I'm saying is the same principle should apply throughout the armed services. |
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Subject: RE: BS: You can't trust the US (military)! From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Jun 01 - 01:30 PM George H - I distrust forces which aren't "under direct government control" too! Like...the mafia, and the Hell's Angels, for example... :-) Just thought I'd mention that. - LH |