Origins: Arthur McBride - What's the background?

Subject: Arthur McBride
From: Mike Byers
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 12:43 PM

I was wondering about the origin of this song; most of the references I've found list it as Irish in origin, but some of the lyrics I've come across seem to be in Scots dialect. Does it date from the 1800s or was it written later?

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride
From: Frug
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 12:50 PM

Try the notes attached to the song on Henry and Susannes Folksong Index which place it at or about the 18th C.

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride
From: Midchuck
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 01:15 PM

Always thought Arthur was a good deal brighter than Willie...

P.

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 01:18 PM

Supplementing what's already in this forum (search for arthur). Song is Roud #2355 (folk song index), and he lists 8 traditional versions. He lists (broadside index) a broadside copy in the Madden collection with handwritten date 1836. That makes it older than the copies on the Bodleian Ballads website.

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 01:35 PM

Here is a link to Henry and Susanne's text and notes:  Arthur McBride #1.  The first few quoted are from A.L. Lloyd, Folk Song in England, 1967, and indicate that the song was known in both Ireland and England in the 1830s/40s, and in Scotland perhaps a little later.  It has also been found in America: as has been pointed out before, the version recorded by Paul Brady (and posted here several times) was an American one.

There are three broadside copies at the  Bodleian Library Broadside Collection:

Arthur Macbride: A New Song  Printer and date unknown.
Arthur M'Bride  The Poet's box (Glasgow) Oct. 8, 1870.
 Printed between 1840 and 1866 by J. Harkness of Preston.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 02:37 PM

According to Roud, "Arthur McBride" in the Madden collection had no printer's name or place, but Madden filed it with broadsides from Dublin. I.e., title is not the same as that listed by Malcolm as the 1st above at the Bodleian Ballads website, so 1836 remains the best date we have for it.

Subject: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 03:40 AM

I was just listening to a song called, Arthur McBride, a nice song, but was wondering what the background is to the song.

Listening to the lyrics it sounds like he's been asked to join the army and doesnt want to enlist.

But whats the whole story?

Can someone tell me the background to this song, like where it comes from etc.

Regards

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 03:40 AM

oops... where did the Ella bit go?

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:00 AM

The story dates back before to conscription when recruiting parties were sent out to entice likely young lads to enlist. They were then paid a bounty, but served for something like 20 years (if they lasted that long). For poorer people sometimes it was the only way they could survive, hence a larger proportion of Irish, Scots and Welsh served in the British Army than we would normally expect.

Arthur is wise to all this and refuses. The recruiting sergeant takes this as an insult, but before he and the Corporal can attack them, they beat them up. Many Irish people resented that they were expected to fight in the British Army when then had few freedoms at home.

Hope this helps
Les

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:04 AM

Thanks... Les...

It's along the lines of what I thought, but good to get some sort of clarification on things.

Thanks

Ella

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:08 AM

of course there were no English in the British army because they all lived in luxury

*seethe*

JC

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:13 AM

Jim . . and your point was??

What's there to seethe at? No-one's denied that the army was a "last resort" for many of the English poor, too . . There are songs reflecting English relations with the army (The Recruited Collier springs to mind); this one happens to feature an Irishman.

Interestingly (in contrast to your seething) the song seems to have been popular with English squadies, too!

G.

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:14 AM

There were plenty of poor Englishmen in the British Army as well, Jim. My dad, for one.

Les

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:34 AM

Les, I think we're saying the same thing from different angles. What I am suggesting is that it would have been sufficient to say 'many people resented' without needing to specify nationality.

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: English Jon
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:43 AM

The song is east anglian, not irish.

EJ

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: English Jon
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:45 AM

And so's the wild rover.

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:04 AM

the woild roover?

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: English Jon
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:12 AM

Earliest known version collected from Henry Payne of Thetford (1813 - 1898) who was a town bandsmen and conductor of the choir of St. Stevens, Little Thetford.

Or have I just made that up?

EJ

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Big Tim
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:15 AM

I read somewhere that the song dates from the 1840s. I would say that Planxty put it on the map (1973) and that Bob Dylan spread it even further (1992), if memory serves.

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:51 AM

Hello All. If a man with the name of McBride didn`t come from Donegal, then, I am an East Anglian. Of course the English poor resented joining the rest of the Scots Welsh and Irish to be used as cannon fodder, Well those with brains did. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:06 AM

Fen or broad?

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:25 AM

If you put Arthur McBride in the Digitrad and Forum Search box at the top of the main forum page, you will get a long list of previous threads discussing this song and its varous versions.

Try these:

Paul Brady \ Arthur McBride

Paul Brady's version of Arthur McBride

and

Lyr Req: Planxty´s Arthur McBride

Paul Brady's version was collected in Maine.

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:25 AM

Here's some fun.

The DT has 2 versions

Both are apparently English, but one at least looks to have Irish forebears.

The Bodleian Collection has 3 broadside versions.

One (Harding B25(82)) on a slip, undated and unattributed claims it as "A New Song" Broadside Version. Though the typeface appears to be rather older than the other two versions (below) I'm sceptical about its claim to be "New" as I know that publishers frequently claimed this erroneously.

The other 2 versions in the Bodleian are by J. Harkness (Preston) betweeen 1840-1866 and from The Poet's Box (Glasgow) 1870.

It doesn't appear to be in any of the C16th or C17th ballad collections I have searched.

Though I can't find any evidence of this on the net (nor in any printed sources as yet) I have been told by a normally reliable source that it was, in fact, composed by a well known Scottish songwriter in the C18th. If I could remember his name, I could try and confirm it. More later.

Cheers!
Ian

PS Ard, the earliest spellings appear to be MacBride. if it proves to be Scottish, are you saying you're East Anglian? (if so you're welcome far & near ... "If you're East Anglian, Come into the parlour ...").

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:39 AM

For some attempt at joined-up background, here are the 3 previous threads on Arthur McBride

Arthur McBride
Paul Brady \ Arthur McBride
Paul Brady's Version of Arthur McBride

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:42 AM

Ian, As a matter of interest, how do you account for the reference in the broadside version to 'shelalas', was this Irish word (I'm assuming this is a variation on shillelagh) common parlance in 19th century East Anglia?

Brian

(Not trying to stir, just interested to know!)

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:51 AM

Brian

I don't. I never said nowt about it being East Anglian (read my posts). The shillelaghs are one of the things which point to Irish forebears in the DT version. However, it was quite common to "Irishise" or "Scottishise" broadsides, so I wouldn't get too hung up on it.

My guess is that it may well end up being Scottish, for the reasons I have given. I can't support that at the moment, though, so I'll just have to go away and dig deeper.

Cheers
Ian

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 09:02 AM

Sorry Ian, it was EJ that pointed to East Anglian connections.

Brian

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 09:12 AM

Here's more detail, but mainly smoke.

Susannes´s Folksong-Notizen [1967:] By no means all country workers were credulous bumpkins, as Arthur McBride shows, that most good-natured, mettlesome, and un-pacifistic of anti-militarist songs. It has been a remarkably widespread and well-favoured piece. Patrick Joyce learnt it in Limerick during his boyhood in the early 1840s, and around the same time George Petrie received a version from a Donegal correspondent. Sam Fone [...] remembered it as his father's favourite in Devon in the 1830s, and he sang a good set of it to Baring-Gould in 1893. The song had made its way to the Scottish north-east during the latter half of the century, and Gavin Greig recorded a version, 'Scotticized to some extent', from Alexander Robb, his school caretaker at New Deer, Aberdeenshire. More recently, a singer from Walberswick, Suffolk, recorded it for the BBC early in 1939. [...]

Throughout the whole period from the Restoration to the accession of Victoria - that is, during the liveliest time of folk song creation - the discipline of army and navy was brutal and callous, ruled by the lash. [...]

Desperate recruitment, barbarous treatment, low pay (fixed after the Restoration at eightpence a day for foot soldiers, and so it remained for 123 years regardless of the raised cost of living). [...] (Lloyd, England 239ff)

[1969:] I have always assumed that this highly subversive song was from East Anglia, but in fact I don't know. It is probably 18th century in origin and I learned it from Redd Sullivan. (Notes Martin Carthy, 'Prince Heathen')

[1976:] After the landlord's agent, probably one of the most hated persons in Ireland was the recruiting sergeant. The Irish peasant, destitute of worldly possessions and ground down by poverty, was forced of necessity to fight for a power which he despised. The balladmaker, being aware of this, was not slow to express his feelings in some of his most vicious ballads, always with a sarcastic edge. The earlier ballads such as this one, Mrs McGrath, The Kerry Recruit and Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye, set the tone for the later anti-recruiting songs such as Sergeant William Bailey and The Tipperary Recruiting Sergeant, written during the 1914-18 war, when England was attempting to enforce conscription in Ireland. The sarcasm of the song cannot hide the terrible conditions under which soldiers were forced to serve after they had accepted the shilling, and Arthur's words "I would not be proud of your clothes ...", are only too true, when one considers that twenty-five lashes with the cat-o'-nine-tails was the minimum punishment and a staggering 1500, the legal maximum. All this for eightpence a day. The song was collected in Limerick by P.W. Joyce about 1840. On account of its phraseology, he was disposed to think that it came from Donegal. The version sung here by Paul is one which he heard in America. (Frank Harte, notes 'Andy Irvine & Paul Brady')

[1977:] The reference to 'a shilling a day' [not in the above versions] must date the song to the nineteenth century, but it has all the economy and directness of the older traditional ballads. [...] The song presumably originated in Ireland, but it was also known in England and Scotland. Our version [close to all the above, but with Arthur McBride the name of the recruiting sergeant] is from the north-east of Scotland, where it was taken by migrant harvesters from Ireland, and became a favourite in the farm bothies. (Palmer, Soldier 56f)

[1988:] This famous song would appear to me to have originated in Donegal or in Scotland. Its popularity was such that it travelled to England and America [...]. The recruiting sergeant and his party must have been a curse to the common people of Ireland at the time of the Napoleonic Wars, especially as most of them would have had more sympathy with Napoleon than with the British. (Andy Irvine, Aiming for the Heart 13)

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 09:15 AM

Read Susanne's notes to Arthur McBride and you'll get opinions on this question from Lloyd, Palmer, M. Carthy, Frank Harte, Andy Irvine with as many possibilities left as have already been mentioned here.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 09:16 AM

easier still, read Ian's post.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 09:28 AM

:0)

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 09:45 AM

While I've been off checking references, most of the material I had intended to point to has been covered.  It remains only to mention a few small points:

The use of Irish names, locale and words such as shillelah (however spelt) are not in themselves indicators of Irish origins in a song.  "Stage Irish" songs, largely written in London, were popular from at least the 18th. century.  Some used existing melodies, others had new tunes made in an "Irish style".  By the 19th. century, the USA was also a major source of "Stage Irish" songs.

The earliest known examples of this song appear to have been found in England.  That doesn't necessarily mean that it didn't originate in Ireland, just that we don't have evidence going back that far as yet.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: paddymac
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 10:05 AM

Mention of the miserable wages paid to soldiers in the service of the crown has many implications, one of my favorites being that it was those low wages, and the consequent need to find outside employment, that led to the famous (if not entirely accurate) "Boston Massacre". Starving British soldiers tried to get jobs at a "rope-walk", where they were run off by colonists already employed there. The "incident" degenerated as tempers flared, and one result can fairly be said to be added fervor to the cause of American independance. Christopher Hibbert tells the story in his "Redcoats and Rebels: The American Revolution Through British Eyes". A good read.

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 10:09 AM

The Harding broadside mentions 'fourpence a day'. Even during the Napoleonic Wars a private soldier got a shilling a day. Perhaps it was fourpence after deducions for 'necessaries'. Any ideas?

Also there's the phrase 'smell timmer'. I can't trace that in a slang dictionary. Someone?

Ta! Les

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 10:20 AM

TIMMER

Timber \Tim"ber\, n. [Probably the same word as timber sort of wood; cf. Sw. timber, LG. timmer, MHG. zimber, G. zimmer, F. timbre, LL. timbrium. Cf. Timmer.] (Com.) A certain quantity of fur skins, as of martens, ermines, sables, etc., packed between boards; being in some cases forty skins, in others one hundred and twenty; -- called also timmer. [Written also timbre.]

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

timmer \Tim"mer\, n. Same as 1st Timber. [Scot.]

______________________________________________________

This doesn't look very good in the context unless it means they were bludgeoned with something made of wood. From the context, I would have guessed it meant something like "smell fear".

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 10:37 AM

Great stuff folks...

Think I've got me answers now!

Thanks Noreen, I'm terrible at remembering the search thing u mummy...

E

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 10:42 AM

There are two issues by Harding; the other gives We made him smell timber.  That would probably be because he had just been hit over the head with a large lump of it.

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 10:50 AM

Thanks, Malcolm. That about sews that one up!

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: English Jon
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 11:17 AM

Ard Mhacha, I never knew Arthur was an Irish name ;)

Kind of like suggesting that Henry Martin is French.

EJ

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 12:23 PM

Comments by IanC and Malcolm Douglas above are very valuable in terms of viewing folk song in general.

One other point I's like to make is that it should never be a mystery when there are indications that a song which appears to be Irish may have been written in Scotland, England or anywhere else outside of Ireland. One possible explanation always is that it may have been written by an Irish person living there.

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 01:36 PM

Hello English Jon, In Ireland it is by no means unusual to hear a person called Arthur, I couldnt believe the many people in England I heard called Brian and Kevin. Very shallow argument, take it from me ArthurMcBride is a Donegal song. Slan agus Beannacht Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 04:46 PM

I have posted two links below to the oldest text I can find for Arthur Macbride.

Bodleian Library Link to Arthur Macbride
The Bodleian Library Home Page

While the text has not yet been dated, from the style of print it can safely be estimated that this version is , at the latest, very early 19th C. in origin. The lyrics ares lightly different to that commonly known today but there is no doubting the link.

The style of the language used is certainly not that of the common labouring classes of Ireland at that time and it was surely written by one who was blessed with an education. The use of the word "shelals" would imply that the main characters were of Irish origin but does not neccessarily mean that the author was Irish.

I have emailed the researcher in charge of the project for extra information but in the meantime I will be facinated to hear your views and comments.

Frank

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 05:05 PM

Hello Guest, You may be ignorant of the fact that from irish Hedge Schools came great poets and writers. So writing an anti-recruiting song was not beyond the"ignorant irish" Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 05:33 PM

The thing is, they never managed to introduce conscription into Ireland, and moves made to introduce it in the latter stages of the Great War led to an energetic, and in the event, a successful, movement against that happening - which provided a chance for republicans and others to get back into organised campaigning in the wake of the Easter Rising.

This song became extremely popular around that time, understandably.

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:46 PM

I would imagine that Frank knows about the hedge schools, and he certainly made no reference to ignorance.  The style of print in the broadside he refers to (which Ian C also linked to earlier on; I do wish that I'd got back here sooner so that all the references could have been in one place) in itself proves nothing, as broadside printers continued to use old type long after more upmarket printers had abandoned it.  As has already been said, the earliest attested reference we have to the song dates it to the 1830s (in England) and to the 1840s (in Ireland): it seems perfectly reasonable to place the song's origins in Ireland, but there is no point at all in getting worked up about it unless we have specific evidence.  Which, at present, we do not.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 09:08 PM

My cookie expired, hence the "Guest" tag. Refreshed since though.
Ard Mhacha, my great, great grand father was a well read man thanks to the hedge schools. And thankfully the love of the written and spoken word has been passed on through the generations since.

However, my great, great grand daddy would not have written or spoken lines such as, "We made them smell timmer when they were in town" or "The saucy wee drummer, we level'd his pow". Such dialect in the English language was not "of the people". Certainly not in Munster or Connaught. The person who wrote such words was probably in the habit of speaking words like these also. This is not the style of language of the majority of Irish people of the time. It would have been the dialect of the privileged few.

Frank

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 09:17 PM

Thanks for the backup Malcom and I take your point on the style of print.

Frank

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 05:57 AM

Hello All, According to Frank McGrath "such language was not of the people", Well Frank and Malcolm, look up "The Blarismoor Tragedy",. YoU will find it on the list of songs on this site. The words are by a hedge school poet James Garland of Lurgan Co Armagh. James also wrote songs on "The Market Cross of Armagh", "Dobbins flowery vale" etc. And come back to me and tell me the dialect used in this song "is of the people". And Malcolm more power to you I appreciate your contribution and all the rest of the helpful people on this site. Slan agus Beannacht Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: English Jon
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 06:27 AM

I know a few English Kevins (and the odd Brian), Ard Mhacha. I think you've missed the irony! My point is that just because someone's name is "Arthur MacBride" it doesn't follow that automatically they are Irish. My family name is French, but I'm not. etc etc. A shallow argument indeed. There's a lot of McBrides in Cambridge.

With reqard to the text of the song, Donegal seems very likely for all sorts of linguistic reasons, syntax conventions of hiberno-english etc. But the earliest written source we have is English. But then again, is it really necessary to identify "authorship" of "traditional" material?

I reckon it doesn't matter. If it's a good song sing it, but why call the folk police over it?

Cheers

EJ

Subject: RE: Arthur McBride- What's the background?
From: Paddy Plastique
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 06:40 AM

English Jon, Why of course Henry Martin is French.... :-] just need to get rid of that 'y' and slap in an 'i' instead... and isn't Ireland's other patron saint an Arthur ? St. Arthur of James's Gate, that is or Uncle Arthur as we know him in Dublin... or no, actually, now that I think of it e's English too... bleddy 'ell it's confusing all this border-hopping...