orchestral folkies

Subject: orchestral/classical folkies
From: Ruthie A
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 05:35 PM

Ey-up! I had auditions for the Young Sinfonia (orchestra for people aged about 12-21 I think, based in the north east of England) a few weeks ago. I'd finished inventing my sightreading, and the conductor asked me what kind of music I like to play the most. I told him, of course. Folk. At this he looked distinctly alarmed, and spent at least five minutes establishing that I don't start clog dancing and yelling 'Hup!' in the middle of Beethoven's 3rd. Later that day at the local folk club, I was sternly accused of classical phrasing and predictable ornamentation. I think the audition was fairly successful - I've got an associate membership for certain - but I was wondering if there are any other Catters out there who have been classically trained, and have to keep the styles separate without hindering either. Especially those poor people like myself who spend countless hours trying to drill it into their classical tutors that folk is a valid music form and does not require the singular qualification of beer quaffing (although it does help!). Thanks! Ruthie

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 06:11 PM

Yes. My musical experience prior to 'folk' was some classical and mostly 'early' music (renaissance and early baroque). I find that my way of thinking about music is entirely different than people who have always played 'folk'.

Playing the accordion is helping me some, though. I'm finding it somewhat easy to learn how to accompany the melody I produce with my right hand with chords I produce with my left hand. I don't know how this is going to work in sessions, though. I haven't tried yet. I may have to settle for just playing basses (chords) under other peoples' melodies.

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: JenEllen
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 06:31 PM

Yes, Ruthie. I was classically trained (still sounds like trying to housebreak a dog, no matter how you say it..) and re-discovered folk music in the last 5 years or so.

I was lucky enough that my first instructor was a woman who let me 'play'. She would allow us to practice on nearly anything we wanted, pop/classical/country/folk whatever, and it opened a lot of doors. Especially now that I am learning another instrument, the ability to take music as music (all forms are valid) and enhance your own playing is a great thing.

All I can add, really, is congratulations on the Sinfonia, and keep your chin up. With the two, you have equally powerful forms of music to brighten your life. And if you ever decide to clog during the 3rd, please be sure and let me know, it would be worth the flight to see it.

luv,
~Jen

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: Benjamin
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 07:28 PM

I'm being classically trained and will probably stick with it as well. However, blues musicians always seem to like my playing. I just have problems with the right hand on fingerstyle. It's fine when I'm playing classical. My teacher though, has encouraged me to think about what is I like about blues (and other stuff I like) and to take what I can take from it (which may or may not be more than you think, I'm not sure). Right now, I'm playing more classical than anything. It could stay that way for a long time!

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: Noreen
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 07:59 PM

Believe it or not, this has been discussed at length here in the last year. Not sure how to find the thread again though, but it was very interesting with discussions over differing techniques.

Anyone else remember?

Noreen

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 08:19 PM

Would this be the one you're thinking of, Noreen?

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: Noreen
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 08:47 PM

No, Carol, though that thread was fascinating too. (Thanks!) The one I was thinking of was more about different techniques for playing classical violin/folk fiddle.

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 09:11 PM

Was this it?

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 09:50 PM

Must you keep your folk and classical styles separate? Melding them works for me on O'Connor, Meyer and Ma's "Appalachia..." stuff.

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: Philibuster
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 10:17 PM

I was trained clasically, on a trombone no less. In my own compositions, the folk and blues rythms and phrasing get mixed in with everything I do. It aggravated the hell out of my Jazz teacher when I was doing improve. Just about everything I write ends up being some sort of fusion of big band, blues, early romantic ballads, and depression era american folk songs. It's just my style, I don't try to keep the music I was educated in appart from what I enjoy, I mix and match. Anyone that accuses you of classical phrasing or predictable chord structures needs to bugger off, nothing should interfere with your style but your own opinions.

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 10:26 PM

Me. Over twenty years ago my Violin teacher got snotty about Old Time/Bluegrass etc. not being Real Music. I quit and started trying to learn to "fiddle" with the help of a guitarist. Took me a lot of years to learn not to sound like a "violinist" masquerading as a "fiddler". Classical technique works best on waltzes, slow airs, stuff like that, but I use a LOT of classical bowing technique on fast dance tunes.

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: Benjamin
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 10:40 PM

Carol, I didn't read too much of the first thread you posted, and would hate to carry on that long discussion here. But I'm going to say two things.
In my experience, blues guitarists have been snobbier about my classical playing than classical guitarists of my blues playing. All my teacher wants from me is to put the necisary work in. If I want to mess around with other stuff, fine with him. Blues guitarists (not all) have assumed I'm imposing my "rules" on them (I haven't) and have let me know how much they appericiate that. I'm not saying that your average CG isn't a snob (I've met many who are) but they seem to accept that I have other musical interests. I don't think that many of the guitarists out their think they're better because their music is better. If they act snobby, maybe it's because of all the work they've been putting in (that doesn't justify it, work just makes people snobby for some reason).
My other point is that someone on that last thread said there is no room (or very limited) for improvisation. While it's true that most guitarists don't improvise much (if at all) that doesn't mean it isn't accepted or there isn't room for it. A friend of mine was telling me about a guy named Roland Dyens he saw in concert. The first 15 minutes were all improvised and he said it was the most amazing thing he's seen in a concert. And he's one of the top composers and concert players in the CG world today.
Of course, this is all coming from a player of a solo insturment. I can't speak for other insturments or insturmentalists. Just my thoughts from where I stand.

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 10:51 PM

Wow, Benjamin. I'd fogotten that I'd posted to that thread.

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: GeorgeH
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 06:13 AM

All I'll say is that some musicians can bridge the difference between the two approaches and some can't, and there's a lot of ignorant prejudice on both sides (and snobbery/inverted snobbery).

Oh, and next time some classical snob starts telling you you're not playing "real" music . . just get them to try to notate your favorite folk track . . they'll soon discover there's more to it than they thought!

[I don't play; my wife's a classical trained musician who's also been playing folk for 30 years, and runs "playing by ear" workshops for those who can only play from the dots. Both our kids have grown up following both approaches in parallel. And there are enormous numbers of outstanding Folk performers with a fairly high level of classical training. On the other hand I can think of one attempt by "folk" performers to "do" art music which is unlistenably bad . . probably the worst CD I've ever heard.]

Good luck in all you do . .

G.

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:37 AM

I was classically trained, and used to be a performing classical guitarist. I have since "merged" those techniques with techniques that I picked up from other styles -- folk, blues, jazz, rock and roll, etc. Like some of the folks who posted before me, I don't see any inherent conflict in this. In fact, there are a lot of folk musicians out there (past and present) whose approach incorporates many elements of classical performance -- including musicians who spring from Celtic, African, Appalachian, and blues traditions. I think that an awareness of a range of traditions, and an ability to recognize the things they have in common, can only make one a better musician.

I also have to agree with Benjamin about improvising in classical music. In fact, improvisation was an integral part of musical performance in the Baroque and Classical periods ("classical" is currently used as a generic term, but it also refers to a specific musical genre and time period in which Mozart, Haydn, and others were composing). A number of people who heard Beethoven perform remarked that his improvisations (which were featured on the program) surpassed his written works, which boggles the mind when you stop and think about it. Classical improvisation fell out of fashion in more recent times (most of the 19th and 20th centuries), which is unfortunate, but it is nice to see some musicians bringing it back. I think that for a while classical music pedagogy did stifle a lot of the creativity that people wanted to bring to the music, and possibly drove a number of them to give up their studies and pursue more folk-centered forms which offered more creative freedom. Let's hope that we "folk" musicians (however one defines that term) can avoid making the same mistake.

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: John P
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:56 AM

I'm a self-taught musician, so I was never classically trained, but I spent a few years in a terribly stuffy early music consort. There was a lot of snobbishness there, enough that I finally quit to get away from it. Maybe the rules that we couldn't play outside of were worse than the snobbiness. At least there was also a lot of improvisation in that group.

I have encountered an equal level of snobbishness from folk musicians. Why are some people so proud of being musically illiterate? What's wrong with the ability to read music being one of the tools in your arsenal? And, for a lot of traditional folk musicians, the rules that you can't play outside of are just as strong. And improvisation, in some styles of folk music, is frowned on as stongly as it is among a lot classical musicians.

I have much more fun finding and celebrating the similarities between different styles of music than in building walls between them.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: Benjamin
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 12:51 PM

That was very well put John. One of these days I'll come into Dusty Strings to meet you.

BMW

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: GeorgeH
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 01:04 PM

Yup, I agree with Benjamin . . Very well said, John.

But on the subject of early music groups . . . In my brief spell as a concert promoter one of the few non-folk events I did was with an Early Music Group . . they are the ONLY performers we worked with we'd never have back again. Apart from the snobbishness, a condescending attitude, an "oh, that's good enough" attitude to their performance and charging us way over the top for their travel expenses (and for their fee, for that matter) they expected us to look after their unrully kids which they'd chosen to bring to their rehearsal! To listen to them they really rated their improvisational skills, which they described as no longer being part of music making. Had the opportunity presented itself I would have told them to go out and listen to folk and jazz, and THEN start talking about improvisation . . .

In the same concert series we had Makvirag who, at our request, did 50% early music programme. For less than a third the fee they gave an altogether far better performance - in every respect. (And their singer was vastly better than the other group's.)

By contrast, the other "classical" concert we presented was an absolute joy in every respect . .

G.

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: Jim Krause
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 01:12 PM

And I'm another classically trained musician. Started on piano when I was a kid, and ended up studying voice in college. I was lucky, in addition to the usual voice repertoire Der Erlkönig by Schubert, selections from Handel's Messiah my voice teacher encouraged me in my interests in both traditional and contemporary folk music. In fact, my senior recital was a combination of original songs, and traditional Appalachian folk songs.

I have heard it said, and it has been alleged in my presence that classically trained vocalists can't yodel. I am here to prove that statement incorrect. I haven't gotten any grief from classical or folk singers so far. And to my utter surprise, audiences seem to enjoy my singing. It seems all too easy. I must be doing something wrong. ;-)

I agree whole heartedly that learning to read music is a valuable skill to have in one's musical tool kit. I have learned a few arcane fiddle tunes because some one like R. P. Christesen wrote them down and put them in books. Some of these tunes have never or seldom been recorded. There are likely other fiddle or song collections out there that are the same as The Missouri Old Time Fiddler's Repertoiry, containing little known pieces that are worth exploring. But if you can't read music, you'll never find 'em.
Jim

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Jul 02 - 11:45 PM

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: Trevor
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 05:02 AM

I was accused of singing down my nose at chamber choir practice the other night. I'll have 'em singing Tallis like octogenarian ploughmen yet!

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: Pied Piper
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 07:07 AM

Arrr Tomas Tallis, English spiritual music at its best. John P hits the nail on the head. I'm self taught and consider any human music mine to play if I like it. The resources available to modern musicians are colossal and from every culture and tradition. We are lucky to live in times when musical boundaries are breaking down and musicians like myself can have experience playing ( in my case) Trad dance, Blues, North Indian classical, Reggae, and Rock. I have no trouble getting my head round Tallis, and Lead Zeppelin. Just keep playing. All the best PP.

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 08:30 AM

I'm a classically trained violinist and have played for many westend shows and musicals. I have been told that I have the ability to make any folk tune sound baroque in style. All I can say is stick with it. I'm still trying and sometimes get mixed up and play classical stuff folkie and folkie stuff classical!!!

cat

Subject: RE: orchestral folkies
From: Ringer
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 09:07 AM

Slightly off the "orchestral" bit of the thread -- is it different for singers?

My daughter (16) is undergoing "classical training" as a singer (she wants to be an opera singer!). When I hear her doing a solo in a concert, I'm impressed by her volume, and she sounds like all other "classically trained" singers: that is, she has the proverbial plum in her mouth. But she greatly enjoys our local session, and there produces a "folk" sound (ie she spits out the plum first). She does say that occasionally her singing teacher accuses her of ... I forget the term she used, but it implies that she's carried folk into her classical style ... but she is quite confident that she'll be able to continue in both genres. Can other singers do that?

Changing the subject: GeorgeH above has commented on his dislike of folkies producing "classical" music. My bugbear is the opposite: as far as I'm concerned that plum really gets in the way of the classical singer's folk-song. Andreas Scholl (sp?), on his recent English Folk Songs (allegedly) CD, I find appalling (but then, I'm not keen on the counter-tenor anyway).

Thanks for the refresh, John.