Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2]


Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto

DigiTrad:
MONTO
THE WAXIES DARGLE


GUEST,Bob 03 Jul 01 - 06:02 PM
Abby Sale 03 Jul 01 - 06:44 PM
Abby Sale 03 Jul 01 - 07:38 PM
Matthew Edwards 03 Jul 01 - 08:03 PM
MartinRyan 05 Jul 01 - 06:33 PM
Matthew Edwards 05 Jul 01 - 08:29 PM
Abby Sale 05 Jul 01 - 08:56 PM
Matthew Edwards 05 Jul 01 - 09:16 PM
Matthew Edwards 05 Jul 01 - 09:28 PM
Abby Sale 06 Jul 01 - 09:19 AM
Matthew Edwards 06 Jul 01 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Bob 06 Jul 01 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Bob 06 Jul 01 - 03:05 PM
Abby Sale 06 Jul 01 - 03:54 PM
GUEST 06 Jul 01 - 05:15 PM
Matthew Edwards 06 Jul 01 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 04 Jun 02 - 02:41 PM
katlaughing 04 Jun 02 - 03:53 PM
michaelr 04 Jun 02 - 08:35 PM
Mrrzy 05 Jun 02 - 03:04 PM
AKS 17 Feb 04 - 04:07 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 17 Feb 04 - 05:28 AM
GUEST,Maritn Ryan 17 Feb 04 - 05:34 AM
Dead Horse 17 Feb 04 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 17 Feb 04 - 09:43 AM
HuwG 17 Feb 04 - 11:37 AM
Matthew Edwards 17 Feb 04 - 01:57 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 17 Feb 04 - 02:00 PM
Big Tim 17 Feb 04 - 02:27 PM
Matthew Edwards 17 Feb 04 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 17 Feb 04 - 03:19 PM
Micca 17 Feb 04 - 06:59 PM
Cluin 19 Feb 04 - 01:15 AM
Abby Sale 19 Feb 04 - 10:37 AM
Big Tim 19 Feb 04 - 11:53 AM
Abby Sale 19 Feb 04 - 07:48 PM
Abby Sale 19 Feb 04 - 09:45 PM
MartinRyan 20 Feb 04 - 06:17 PM
GUEST 21 Feb 04 - 12:01 PM
Abby Sale 21 Feb 04 - 12:54 PM
MartinRyan 22 Feb 04 - 05:43 PM
Big Tim 30 Jun 04 - 05:11 AM
Big Tim 30 Jun 04 - 09:35 AM
Big Tim 30 Jun 04 - 09:43 AM
MartinRyan 30 Jun 04 - 10:56 AM
John MacKenzie 30 Jun 04 - 01:33 PM
John MacKenzie 30 Jun 04 - 01:36 PM
Herga Kitty 30 Jun 04 - 03:31 PM
John MacKenzie 30 Jun 04 - 05:13 PM
Abby Sale 30 Jun 04 - 09:02 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: Monto
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 06:02 PM

I would just like to ask a few quick question regarding the exact meaning (assuming there is one) of a few lines of Monto: 1. The reference to the Duke of Gloucester as a dirty old imposter who lost his Mot, 2.The reference to the Dublin Fusiliers getting the childer, and the reference to the Linen hall and the cannonball 3.The reference to the Lord Mayor and Queen Victoria.

Basically I am wondering if the verses have a meaning in the same way as the "Carey told on Skin-the-goat" verse does.

Bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Lyr Add: TAKE ME UP TO MONTO (George Hodnett)
From: Abby Sale
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 06:44 PM

I'm a-gonna give you (nearly) all the answers in the world. Likely more than you wanted. This is an extremely clever & funny song in its origins but the references (as you've discovered) are now so obscure that not even the Dubliners get it right any more. You also need to have the earlier text - there are several Mondegreens that have snuck into most renditions that obscure the obscure more.

TAKE ME UP TO MONTO
(George Hodnett)

Well if you've got a wingo take me up to ringo
Where the waxies sing-o all the day
If you've had your fill of porter and you can't go any further
Then give your man the order back to the Quay.

Chorus:

And take her up to Monto, Monto, Monto,
Take her up to Monto, langeroo to you.

You've heard of butcher Foster, the dirty old imposter
He took a mot and lost her up the Furry Glen
He first put on his bowler, then he buttoned up his trousers
And he whistled for a growler and he said, "My men,

Chorus: Take me up to Monto, etc.

The fairy told him, `Skin the Goat,' O'Donnell put him on the boat
He wished he'd never been afloat, the dirty skite
It wasn't very sensible to tell on the Invincibles
They took aboard the principals, day and night.

Chorus: Be goin' up to Monto, etc.

You've seen the Dublin Fusiliers, the dirty old bamboozaliers
They went and got the childer, one, two, three
Marchin' from the Linen Hall, there's one for every cannonball
And Vicky's goin' to send youse all o'er the sea.

Chorus: But first go up to Monto, etc.

When the Czar of Rooshia, and the King of Prooshia
Landed in the Phoenix in a big balloon
They asked the Garda Band to play, `The Wearin' O' the Green'
But the buggers in the depot didn't know the tune.

Chorus: So they both went up to Monto, etc.

The Queen she came to call on us, she wanted to see all of us
I'm glad she didn't fall on us, she's eighteen stone
`Mr. Neill, Lord Mayor,' says she, `Is this all you've got to show to me?'
`Why no, ma'am, there's some more to see - pog mo thoin

Chorus:

And he took her up to Monto, Monto, Monto,
Took her up to Monto, langeroo - Liathroidi to you.
 

Monto (short for Montgomery St., near the customs-house) was, up until 1926,
a largish red-light district which featured some 1600 or so prostitutes.

I quote some research I found in Dublin:

Montgomery Street, near the Custom House, was reputed to be the biggest red-light district of its kind until its closing down occurred in 1925. The song itself, with its child-like, almost nursery-rhyme style delivery, is quite amusing but if the words are examined, it can be seen to be quite a clever and sometimes very sharp view of some recent historical events. The first verse is principally praising alcohol. In the second verse "Butcher Foster - the imposter", is Chief Secretary Forster, more usually known as "Buckshot". He had introduced Coercion Acts in the late 19th Century which allowed people to be arrested and imprisoned on suspicion of being involved in criminal activity. He was not a very popular individual which can be seen in the unfavourable way he is presented in the song. The bowler connects him to the crown and to loyalism, the growler to the English "Bulldog".

"Skin the Goat" was the nickname of James Fitzharris, the cabman who drove the murderers of Lord Cavendish and T.H.Burke to and from the Phoenix Park. He was sentenced to penal servitude for conspiracy because he refused to identify his passengers. Patrick O'Donnell, in another song was "a deadly foe to traitors". He had met the informer James Carey, who although he had played a leading in the murders, was freed for turning Queen's Evidence. Of the 27 members of the Invincible society who were arrested, Carey's evidence helped to send six for execution. Carey was then secretly dispatched to South Africa by sea and met O'Donnell "afloat". Then while travelling to Durban from Cape Town on the "Melrose" O'Donnell killed Carey and was sent back to London, tried and sentenced to death.

The Dublin Fusiliers come in for abuse also, and are mentioned in connection with the Boer War "oe'r the sea". The new police force, An Garda Siochana, come under suspicion too because their loyalty to the new "Gaelic" state is questioned when they can't play a nationalist melody. Queen Victoria comes in for the greatest abuse of all in the song when she is described unfavourably and is also grossly insulted in a most crude manner by the Lord Mayor of the city, before bringing her up to Monto!

per "THE WAXIES DARGLE," Waxies are candlemakers
per Dictionary of Slang, 'mot' equals any of girl/wench/doxy
per Brendan Behan, "mot" is Dublin slang for girl/woman (even mother) - perhaps from the Latin for mater

The in DT version agrees with Luke Kelly's.

In verse three, 'Garda Band,' not 'polismen' will be accurate but since they were police, it doesn't matter.  Line 4, however, should certainly be 'Vicky' and that's clearly what Kelly sings.  DT, we conclude, has misprinted.

Other differences may be attributed to Process but the explanation below does certainly support (or follow???) the printed source above.
 


Take Me Up to Monto
Words & music by George Hodnett


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Abby Sale
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 07:38 PM

Oh! 2.The reference to the Dublin Fusiliers getting the childer, and the reference to the Linen hall and the cannonball

I'm not sure on this one at all but I see it as conscripting the young men. The Linen Hall as the main barracks. The "one for every..." is certainly 'don't worry, Vicki, there'll be plenty of soldiers available in the Boer War (where she's gonna send yiz all) - in fact one for every cannon ball.'


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:03 PM

I have a booklet published by The Mercier Press in 1978 The Story of Monto by John Finegan (about 50 years too late for any sex-tourists!).It tells the story of Dublin's red-light district, as made famous in Ulysses and in other books such as Gogarty's Tumbling in the Hay. Anyway the author quotes an interview with the writer of the ballad Take me up to Monto, George Desmond Hodnett, music critic of the Irish Times. The song was written in 1958 as "taking off one of the stock types of folk and ballad tunes...The tune has now reached the point when it has become the folk song it originally aimed at satirising."
Finegan quotes what, with permission from George Hodnett, is the "authorised version". This is similar to the version given by Abby above except that her 4th verse should read; See the Dulin Fusiliers
The bloody ould bamboozeleers
De Wet'll kill the chiselers
Wan,two,three
etc

It semms that Hodnett deliberately wrote the tune to sound like an early 20th /late 19th century composition, and threw in a few intentionally obscure references as well as some obsolete Dublin slang. Its no wonder some of the current versions don't make much sense!
At least Hodnett has a place in the pantheon of those who have composed a "traditional" song, alongside Padraic Colum, Ewan MacColl, and Alex Glasgow.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: MartinRyan
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 06:33 PM

Matthew/Abby

Very interesting! Never heard the "De Wet" version - though it certainly fits. GDH was, I think, the jazz critic of the Irish Times (at a time when it was neither... as Myles used to say). 1958 sounds a bit late for the composition? What was the revue/show it was produced for?

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 08:29 PM

According to Finegan in The story of Monto: Hodnett was composing satirical tunes for revues at the Pike Theatre in Herbert Lane in the 50s. Hodnett said he wrote it in 1958 but that it was not seriously intended for public performance. However Ronnie Drew got to know of the song, included it in a performance by the Dubliners at the Gate in 1966 - and the rest is history!
I think Myles said "How could you expect the Irish to play jazz when three of the letters in the word don't even occur in their language."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Abby Sale
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 08:56 PM

I'm surprised too that it was written that late. Any idea who De Wet was?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 09:16 PM

I tried a google search which led me a merry chase. There seems to have been a Sir Jacobus De Wet KCMG who was High Commissioner in Pretoria at the time of the Boer War.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 09:28 PM

A better candidate might be the Boer General Christiaan De Wet, who conducted a series of guerilla actions against the British in South Africa after the official end of the Boer War.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Abby Sale
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:19 AM

Thanks for trying - I actually found him, too, but couldn't imagine what he had to do with Dublin. ---- Well, one could guess that if he killed enough English then the Irish wouldn't have to go there. But it seems far-fetched. Hmmm. "Dulin Fusiliers." Not 'Dublin.'

Oi! No references.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:57 AM

Dulin Fusiliers should of course have read Dublin Fusiliers. I humbly apologise. Were there Irish regiments in the Boer war? As Monto was close to the Army Barracks, it seems likely the soldiers would have wished to make use of the facilities provided there before being sent overseas by Vicky (Queen Victoria) to South Africa where De Wet and his cannonballs awaited them.I'm not sure whether the Linenhall would have been the place whence troops would parade in ceremony when going abroad on duty.
I'm sure GUESTBob now has more information than he bargained for!
Abby, do you really, really want references ? I just cobbled together info on De Wet from a google search. I don't know much about military history, but I'm sure I could dig up some stuff on the Boer War and Irish regiments if you give me some time!
Nobody has asked what the Furry Glen is; I suppose it is a reference to The Fairy Glen, but I seem to detect a rather obscene pun, but that may just be my filthy mind!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 03:03 PM

Apologies for not getting involved earlier, I was away from my computer. Many thanks to all of those who have contributed. I am intrigued that it is a modern "forgery", it is certainly well disguised behind its wealth of obscure detail. The version that I have of Luke Kelly omits the Invincibles verse and talks of the Duke of Gloucester losing his mot.

Before I saw the version put forward by Andrew (above) regarding the Dublin Fusiliers, I had imagined that it was something to do with Erskine Childers's arms importation or Robert Childers Barton who was a memeber of the Dublin Fusiliers and was arrested for making seditious speeches. I though thatit should read "They wen against the Childer one, two three".

Easy to see how the meaning of a song can be distorted eh! The Arch in Stephens Green in Dublin commemorates the 212 Royal Dublin Fusiliers who died in the Boer War.

I will return to the song and see if anything else jumps out at me.

Bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 03:05 PM

Apologies again I meant Matthew not Andrew


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Abby Sale
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 03:54 PM

Matthew Edwards, :-) dinna fash yersel'. I'm a bit hung up on it but no reason for you to be. Some of this stuff will simply not be clarifed by research or logic. We'd need the author's own statements or else someone intimately familiar with the in-jokes & micro-history of the Troubles. I just ordered your referenced booklet from Inter-Library Loan. The only "Linen Hall" I've found is the Linen Hall Library in Belfast. The Reference desk there agrees that it's unlikely the soldiers would have been marching from a Belfast library and said they'd look into it for me. Wunnerful thing, the 'Net.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 05:15 PM

There is (was?) a linen hall in Dublin at the end of Bolton Street. I quote "In Lurgan Street, near the western end of Bolton Street, is the Linen Hall, founded when Dublin was the centre of that trade and Belfast had not yet arisen on the commercial horizon. It is now the barracks and recruiting depot of the Dublin Fusiliers, whose ultra-modern khaki jackets seem oddly incongruous amid their ancient surroundings. The arched piazzas, where the merchants made their bargains, and the wide openings in the outer walls on the first and second floors, which were evidently intended for the swinging of heavy bales in and out of storage lofts, still remain as marks of its original purpose. The Linen Hall was built in 1726." Check out www.indigo.ie/~kfinlay/ for anything to do with Dublin history.

Looking further at the De Wet version there appears to have been a commemorated incident involving a 14 year old bugler with the Dublin Fusiliers who was injured heroically in the Boer war. He was later presented with a silver bugle by Queen Victoria. Unfortunately no reference to De Wet in the incident although it could explain the childer reference.

The plot thickens.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 06:06 PM

Thanks to Guest above for clarifying what the Linenhall was. As Abby wisely said earlier this song has become plagued by mondegreens, so that following some of the misleading references will only lead to trouble. I am thinking especially of the childer reference, which may take an unwary reader into the depths of Finnegans Wake via the curious riddle of Erskine Childers.
I believe that the Boer cause was widely espoused by Nationalist spokespeople who saw in them fellow fighters against the tyranny of British rule. Thus the loss of a few Fusiliers to De Wet's cannonballs would not have been much regretted in some quarters.
Liam O'Flaherty's novel The Informer recounts the role Monto played as a safe haven in The Troubles.
Abby, I'm enjoying this thread and I promise not to fash mysel'. If you have no luck with your Inter Library loan please PM me and I'll see what I can do.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Monto fresh verse
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 02:41 PM

Now to celebrate her fifty years,
the Queen resuscitates careers,
of everyone, save Tears for Fears, and Leonard Cohen.

The songs went back to '52,
When asked if they were finally through
Billy Bragg yells 'One more thing to do: Pog mo thoin!'

cho: And take her up to Monto, Monto, Monto Take her up to Monto, lan-ge- roo, To you!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Monto fresh verse
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 03:53 PM

Here's a link to some explanation of what Monto refers to for those of us across the pond who might've missed the meaning.*BG*

kat


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Monto fresh verse
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 08:35 PM

Funny you should bring up this song - I just quoted it in the World Cup thread!

Cheers,
Michael


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Monto fresh verse
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 03:04 PM

Why not Leonard Cohen? Or is that just for the rhyme?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: AKS
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 04:07 AM

This one seems to have slipped past me when new, but I'll add my wee share now that I got here (thanks to Mahone:-)
I was a bit confused reading 'butcher F', when I first saw the printed lyrics of Monto some 20+ y's ago, because I was quite sure that I heard Luke sing Buckshot Foster on the two recordings of it by the Dubliners I had then. The Duke of Gloucester version I got only a bit later (and later yet fourth recording with Ronnie in lead). Luke also sings DeWet'll get the childer/children..., not chiselers.

AKS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 05:28 AM

I failed to notice the query on "The Furry Glen" query. It's a quiet wooded area in the Phoenix Park which is where the Garda Depot (police headquarters)is located

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: GUEST,Maritn Ryan
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 05:34 AM

Let's try that again:

I failed to notice the query on "The Furry Glen". It's a quiet wooded area in Dublin's Phoenix Park - which is where the Garda Depot (police headquarters)is located.

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Dead Horse
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:33 AM

All above noted.
I shall now NOT be singing this one at the Orange Lodge next Tuesday ;-)
Thank you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:43 AM

Dead Horse

You could always try "Avondale"! After all, Parnell was a Protestant and the tune seems to have come from "The Orange Maid of Sligo" !

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: HuwG
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 11:37 AM

Re. the references to "de Wet" and the "Dublin Fusiliers".

During the (second) Anglo-Boer war, on Sunday October 29th, 1899, Sir George White commanding the British army in Natal province, decided to mount a three-pronged attack on the Boers who were closing in on his base in Ladysmith. One of the three columns was formed from a battalion of the Dublin Fusiliers and another of the Gloucesters, under a Colonel Carleton. There was also a detachment of Mountain Artillery.

Carleton's column was supposed to march at night to occupy a pass through the hills around Ladysmith, known as Nicholson's Nek. Unfortunately, they were late starting because the mules carrying the guns and spare ammunition were restive. Carleton feared that he would be caught in the open at daybreak because of the late start, and decided to occupy a hill called Tchrengula, short of his objective. As they climbed the hill, the mules stampeded and some of the troops fired in panic, thus alerting the Boers to their presence.

At dawn, Carleton discovered that he held only one of Tchrengula's two peaks; and Boers under Vice-Commandant Christiaan de Wet were quick to seize the other peak. They were then able to work forward covered by their own rifle fire.

By contrast, the British troops were allowed only to fire in volleys, on an officer's command. This clumsy method failed to hurt or discourage the Boers. The Boers pressed forward to surround Carleton's troops and force them into a hopeless position. By midday, British ammunition was running out, and it could be seen that the rest of White's army had been defeated and was retreating into Ladysmith. Carleton ordered a ceasefire, and surrendered. 80 or 90 men had been killed, and 800 were taken prisoner. (There were another 350 casualties among White's other columns.)

De Wet went on to become Commandant-General of the Orange Free State's army. He handed out another sharp defeat to British armies, at Sannah's Post near Bloemfontein. Eventually the whole Orange Free State was occupied, but De Wet kept up a guerilla campaign against the occupying British armies. He escaped four times from huge operations intended solely to capture him and his commando.

In 1914, he led a pro-German (or at any rate, anti British) rebellion, but few joined him. He was imprisoned for a year, and died in 1922.


****

Irish troops seem to have had the worst luck in the British forces that fought the Boer war. An Irish brigade, including another battalion of the Dublin Fusiliers, took part in the Battle of Colenso, under an unusually rigid brigadier, Hart. On the day of battle, he first gave them half an hour of parade ground drill, then marched them in close order into a loop of the River Tugela, surrounded on three sides by Boers. There were 400 casualties.

As a GUEST, further up this thread posted, "Looking further at the De Wet version there appears to have been a commemorated incident involving a 14 year old bugler with the Dublin Fusiliers who was injured heroically in the Boer war. He was later presented with a silver bugle by Queen Victoria. Unfortunately no reference to De Wet in the incident although it could explain the childer reference."

The battle was Colenso, as I mentioned. The boy was Bugler John Dunne, then aged 14. A canon of Carlisle Cathredal penned the following lines, immortal perhaps because they were worse even than some of McGonagall's:

"What shall we give, my little Bugelar
For the bugle you lost in the Tugelar ?"
"Give me another ! that I may go
To the front and return them, blow for blow."

(De Wet was not present at Colenso.)


****

Thanks, by the way, to Martin Ryan, for clearing up the meaning of "Furry Glen". In the context of the song, I was imagining all sorts of dubious meanings for the phrase.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 01:57 PM

Thanks, Martin for explaining what the "Furry Glen" is. I'm sure I remember visiting a Fairy Glen in Wicklow, so the Furry Glen in Phoenix Park would be a sort of Dublin joke, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn it was a popular resort for all sorts of the dubious activities that HuwG speculated about!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 02:00 PM

Did we sort out what a "growler" was, for that matter?

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Big Tim
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 02:27 PM

Parnell may have been a Prot. but his politics wouldn't have gone down too well in the Orange Lodge!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 02:49 PM

I think a growler was a sort of hansom cab [a horse-drawn taxi]. I'm sure I recall reading about Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson hailing "growlers" in Baker Street. However a quick Google search suggests other meanings: A dictionary of slang "G" and see also
Meaning of "rush the growler"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 03:19 PM

Matthew,

No, I'm sure the cab was what Hodnett had in mind.

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Micca
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 06:59 PM

Re : growler I agree with Martin Ryan, and I am sure I have seen this in Sherlock Holmes stories however the is an alternative modern slang use here, scroll down to word growler


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:15 AM

Is that like "going the growl" aka "growlin' at the badger"?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Abby Sale
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:37 AM

Good additional work there guys. I agree, especially re Furry Glen. Ok. that's it. End of thread.

Sing the song, eg, on May 24th for Vickie's birthday (1819).

I've got a photo of the Linen Hall, if you want a copy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Big Tim
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 11:53 AM

The Furry Glen is located at the western end of Phoenix Park: between Upper Glen Road and Lower Glen Road, just south of Glen Pond. It's marked on detailed street plans of Dublin, for example: the "Ordnance Survey 1:20,000 Dublin Street Map".

End of Thread? I appreciate all the info given...but... still hoping for more on Hodnett, plus date and context of first publication of the song!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Abby Sale
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 07:48 PM

Wall, Tim, I guess there'll be some more but most of the answers are already given above. Here's something relating to his credibility (in a way):

from:
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/10/26/story878345399.asp

Terry Fagan is a community outreach worker and lifetime resident of the north inner city.

With the North Inner City Folklore Project, he has written a fascinating book,Monto:Madams, Murder and Black Coddle. There's not much he doesn't know about the place and he has some hairraising tales from the glory days when Monto (the Montgomery Street area) was the biggest redlight district in Europe.

"That's the building where they used to sneak the king in to the prostitutes," Fagan says airily, pointing out a site near the infamous Magdalen Laundries with, ironically, a white cross painted on the bricks.The king in questionwas playboy Edward VII, so it seems there's more truth in the song by George Hodnett than one might think.

Monto was largely closed down in 1925, after the spectacular efforts of the Legion of Mary, and Montgomery Street was renamed Foley Street.Over the years the district's stories have become ever more tragic - stories of men left without work on the docks as progress removed the need for them, of teenage kids dying from heroin.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Abby Sale
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 09:45 PM

On the other hand, while most of what I've posted is only as good as "things that are posted on the Web," I can say definitively that there was no Neill or O'Neill who was Lord Mayor of Dublin in any era appropriate to the song.

But what does that imply?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 06:17 PM

..only that the usual phrase is "Mister me Lord Mayor", sez she,"Is that all ye..."

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 12:01 PM

According to the lyrics in the link given by kat, it should be "Carey told on Skin-the-goat", not "the fairy" as in Abby's lyrics, yes?

And does "langeroo" have a meaning?

Cheers,
Michael


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Abby Sale
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 12:54 PM

I haven't seen "Carey" but it makes much more sense since he was one of the involved players.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 05:43 PM

"langers" is Dublin slang for drunk. Langeroo MAY refer to that.

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Big Tim
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 05:11 AM

Waxies = cobblers, bootmakers, as well as candlemakers?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Big Tim
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 09:35 AM

What about "wing-o" and "ring-o"? Forgive me if these have already been dealt with, I couldn't see them!

"Wing" was Dublin slang for a penny, because the coin had a hen on one side of it. From Joyce's "Finnegan's Wake" - "two bar [shillings] and a wing". (Source: Brendan Share's "Slanguage: a dictionary of Irish slang").

"Ring-o" - could it be short for "Ringsend"? This is where the waxies went for their day out (in addition to Bray).

"Growler" defined in Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, "old four wheel, four seater horse drawn cabs were called growlers from the surly attitude of their drivers". Proper name was "clarence"- from the Duke of Clarence, later King William the 4th. (Webster's Dictionary).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Big Tim
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 09:43 AM

Sorry, "Slanguage" is by Bernard, not Brendan, Share.

He has also written "Naming Names: Who, What, Where in Ireland" - both are excellent books.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:56 AM

BigTim

You're right on wing & ring!

Regards

p.s. ... growler.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 01:33 PM

A bar was a pound note when I was a children folks.
Giok


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 01:36 PM

and; half a bar was a 10/- [ten shillings for those not familiar with real or pre decimal money] note.
Giok


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 03:31 PM

And, re Growler - "My proper name is Clarence" is another song altogether... (although I remember it being sung by Tom Brown, whom Roy Harris aka Burl has recalled on the Boer War song thread). I think it might have been Roy Harris that I first heard singing Monto, though?

Kitty


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 05:13 PM

My name is Clarence, I live in Leicester Sqaure
I wear pink pyjamas. and a rosebud in my hair.
To the tune of the Eton boating Song.
Giok


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto
From: Abby Sale
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 09:02 PM

Good, BigTim. No, it hadn't been covered. With this info, (and more from elsewhere not included above) I think I can fairly well provide an organized, annotated version. I've put together a Word file with both brief explanations as footnotes and fuller ones at the end. I even have an etching of the Linen Hall.

Ask me if you want it. But give me a few days to get the other computer back from the vet.

Abby


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 21 November 8:50 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.