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Another Sectarian Killing

Fiolar 12 Jul 01 - 09:31 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jul 01 - 08:05 AM
Fiolar 11 Jul 01 - 05:50 AM
GUEST,Neil Comer 10 Jul 01 - 09:04 PM
InOBU 10 Jul 01 - 11:13 AM
Fiolar 10 Jul 01 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,Neil Comer 09 Jul 01 - 08:35 PM
InOBU 09 Jul 01 - 07:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jul 01 - 02:25 PM
ard mhacha 09 Jul 01 - 01:55 PM
Gervase 09 Jul 01 - 12:32 PM
Grab 09 Jul 01 - 12:04 PM
Fiolar 09 Jul 01 - 06:38 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 08 Jul 01 - 11:49 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jul 01 - 11:09 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 08 Jul 01 - 10:23 AM
InOBU 08 Jul 01 - 09:24 AM
Fiolar 08 Jul 01 - 08:44 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jul 01 - 08:38 AM
Fiolar 08 Jul 01 - 06:02 AM
Big Mick 07 Jul 01 - 10:42 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 07 Jul 01 - 10:16 PM
alison 07 Jul 01 - 10:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jul 01 - 04:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jul 01 - 04:30 PM
Jimmy C 07 Jul 01 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,irony? 07 Jul 01 - 04:07 PM
Jimmy C 07 Jul 01 - 04:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jul 01 - 12:47 PM
GUEST 07 Jul 01 - 11:14 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jul 01 - 11:00 AM
GUEST 07 Jul 01 - 10:56 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 07 Jul 01 - 10:56 AM
Jimmy C 07 Jul 01 - 10:39 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 07 Jul 01 - 10:31 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jul 01 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,AussieJohn 07 Jul 01 - 10:13 AM
Fiolar 07 Jul 01 - 10:09 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 07 Jul 01 - 09:42 AM
GUEST 07 Jul 01 - 08:34 AM
Fiolar 07 Jul 01 - 08:21 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jul 01 - 08:15 AM
GUEST 07 Jul 01 - 07:59 AM
Fiolar 07 Jul 01 - 06:39 AM
Big Mick 06 Jul 01 - 09:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jul 01 - 05:30 PM
Grab 06 Jul 01 - 03:02 PM
GUEST 06 Jul 01 - 02:59 PM
Mrrzy 06 Jul 01 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,Maire 06 Jul 01 - 01:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 09:31 AM

Yeah. I remember Paisley saying, when asked if he allowed terrorists in his congregation, that he had no control over who attended or words to that effect.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 08:05 AM

David Ervine who to me appeared to be one of the "sane" voices on the loyalist side, sadly is allowing the sentiment of "the other side is getting too much" to sway his judgement.

Who knows if it's even his judgement? "Leaders" are the prisoners of their followers so much of the time. That goes for all of them. Except possibly Ian Paisley.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 05:50 AM

To Guest, Neil Comer: The fact that the UFF claim not to support the Good Friday agreement any longer is fairly worrying but with the catalogue of loyalist terrorism over the past years, I am not surprised. The blanket of the Red Hand Defenders is always a convenient cover for any of the loyalist gangs who feel like a spot of arson or murder. David Ervine who to me appeared to be one of the "sane" voices on the loyalist side, sadly is allowing the sentiment of "the other side is getting too much" to sway his judgement. Again sadly too many young protestants see creatures like Johnny Adair as someone to be admired and anyway are thought a variety of history at odds with the real facts. Regarding history teaching, many years ago a friend of mine from Scotland was amazed when I gave him a history book which dealt with the history of Scotland from a completely different perspective to what he had been taught in school. He admitted that he had no knowledge of many of the events which had taken place. Without reading back through the whole thread, I can't recall if I mentioned about the evening class teacher (in Belfast I think) who taught history. When she came to part about the Plantation of Ulster, several students walked out, claiming that she was telling lies.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Neil Comer
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 09:04 PM

Tiocfaidh an lá nuair a bheas an tír seo saor ó reiligiún, ó shearbhas ó mhacallaí na gcéadtaí atá caite, meaite agus cráite Fiolar (nice name) (The day will come when this country shall be free from religion, from bitterness and from the echoes of times long gone, spent and broken)

Sorry for not providing a translation!

The PUP pulled out from the 'talks' (always suspicious about that word). I am sorry. David Ervine is a good man, even though he represents the 'other' side, he sees that Joe Bloggs on the Shankill and his or her other half on the Falls are the same. Its time that the 'haves'(UUP/ SDLP) started realising that the 'have nots' (PUP/ Sinn Fein) are the real voices of the people. Lets face it, Sinn Fein voters want the same thing as PUP voters- jobs, equal opportunities and peace. Those who protest/throw petrol bombs on the Shankill and the Falls are young lads who are bored. Sort this out and we have the problem solved. How many of the petrol bombers/rioters etc know anything about their past? They are following the lead set by their peers and the adults to whom they look up. They don't give a s@@t about Loyalism/Nationalism. They want to a) impress the 'big lads' and b) relieve the boredom. As for a solution, I don't have one, but lets admit the real route of the problem before we attempt to solve it.

Déan pobal athuair d'Éirinn gan roinnt (Make a Community of Ireland, once more without blemish)


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 11:13 AM

As to the marching season... I am convinced that to ban marching, though emotionaly I would agree with it, and also am against Orange parades though nationalist areas, at this point, I don't think that is a solution.
I am convinced that the solution is a well organized well coordinated process of reconcilliation as happened in South Africa. If after ackowleging history, we can have real understanding and forgiveness, then one can emagine marches with completely new meanings, where orange marches could be welcomed into nationalist nieghborhoods.
But at present, there a numerous reasons that the powers that be do not want us to get to know each other and the real underlieing history of the past decades in Irish history. It has to start in the communities, and I don't doubt that there will be high placed attempts to stop such a process. But, peace does not just happen. It takes the affirmative act of making peace. And that can't wait for hte government ot discover an interest n peace, the governments don't know how to make peace becasue they are too busy hiding the mounds of skellatons in their many closits.
We are seeing here at mudcat how the people can make peace through reasoned and intence talk (well writing...) think of how much better it can work face to face...
Fiolar, you are in deed right, in fact even in the German run concentration camp, the bulk of the guards were Polish, Ukranian, and others, the Czech Republic began killing Roma before the nazificaiton of their laws at Leti and now have, in violaiton of internaitonal convention, put a pig farm on the site of the Leti death camp, a great insult to the Jews and Roma who were murdered there.
Make peace, folks... and sing truth to power,
Larry


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 09:06 AM

To Guest Neil Comer: Well said Neil. I have no doubt that there are "reasonable" people in all branches of the Orange order. The problem is that they are only "reasonable" for their own point of view and are very loathe to see others. The BBC programme "End game etc" shown on Sundays makes some very telling points about the North. Perhaps it should be shown as part of the curriculum in schools all over the UK. Perhaps for those mudcatters who don't understand God's language you should translate your last sentence. InOBU: Sadly it wasn't only Germans who massacred Jews. A news item today has the Polish president apologising for the massacre of 1,600 Jews in 1941 in the town of Jedwabne. The murders were long thought to be the work of the Nazis but was in fact carried out by the Poles. Slightly off the point of Northern Ireland, does anybody recall seeing the marvellous 1956 Polish film "Kanal" which dealt with the Warsaw uprising?


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Neil Comer
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 08:35 PM

I write this to all, especially Big Mick, the only one who made an attempt to reply to my submission. We have got slightly away from the point here. The Orange Order march in the name of God (and that's being kind) They say they don't want terrorists at Drumcree, yet they make no effort stop this. Saying that people can protest if they like is like giving an open invitation to the baseball cap wearing, tattooted fraternity en-masse. Much as it galls me to say, there are good men in the Orange Order, men who have learned hatred ó ghlúin go glúin (from generation to generation). They said that they put a reasonable suggestion before the Parades Commission and that it was rejected. They failed to mention that it involved marching first. How hard can it be for these people to speak to Breandán Mac Cionnaith? They refused to condemn Johnny's Adair's presence at Drumcree last year! Orangism is the last bastion of Unionism. It is the last attempt to dominate an area. It is a swan song to the anachronism which is the Orange Order.

Tiocfaidh an lá nuair a bheas an tír seo saor ó reiligiún, ó shearbhas ó mhacallaí na gcéadtaí atá caite, meaite agus cráite


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 07:16 PM

Hi Grab:
Clarification on Fiolar's statement which at first sound like a reflection on Jewish lack of self defense is not fully off topic for two reasons. All people make the history needed for the present political needs. At present, we are struggling here at positive responces to past revisions on the subject of Ireland to reach a constructive truth. In doing so, understanding history, generally is important, as we grow, intellectually by holding our own point of view against the comparison of other histories about which we have different frames of reference. In attempting to do this, Fiolar touched on a point which certain revisionists have been working hard, for many years, to put Jews in a position of being in part responcible for their own distruction - not being worthy of saving. Now, Fiolar made a responcible correction of that impression, and did so very well, but what that may tell us about the present on going revisions of Irish history may well be that the rest of the world looking at British agression in Ireland with no responce from the rest of the world, quick to try Solvadon Melosavich, but slow to charge Thatcher, Kissinger, Pinochet, well, there may be lessons there.
Fiolar, I greatly appreciate the clarification.
As ever, all the best,
Larry


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 02:25 PM

I'm just being pedantic here, Gervase, not seeking to make a political point, but there were quite a few "instances of HMG divesting herself of her overseas colonies or dominions without a bit of terrorism". Canada, Australia, New Zealand, most parts of Africa apart from Kenya...

All right there was Ned Kelly, and other small scale equivalents elsewhere, but they weren't the key factor. It basically came down to profit and loss, and most of the time the game wasn't worth the candle. The Empire was largely a matter of bluff.

Ireland's misfortune has been its geography, so close to England.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 01:55 PM

Gervase, Leave it to you to impart some words of wisdom, Well done. Slan Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 12:32 PM

There's a good reason why nationalists in the north learned to mistrust the British government - and that's because, for much of the last century, the ruling party was "The Conservative and Unionist Party".
That's right - unionist. Post partition, the warped doctrine of No Surrender was as much an article of faith for the Tory party as any of the other absurdities it has perpetrated.
Remember it was a Labour government that sent in the troops first of all - in response to a terrified Gerry Fitt calling Downing Street direct from a chippie as a civil rights march was having seven shades of shit kicked out of it.
And, for a while, squaddies were welcomed as protectors by the minority nationalist community - until, of course, the government in Westminster changed colour and the establishment took over. Then came Bloody Sunday and all was lost.

Apropose not a lot else, it always makes me larf when the British government says: "Terrorists will never win!" There have been precious few instances of HMG divesting herself of her overseas colonies or dominions without a bit of terrorism.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Grab
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 12:04 PM

Aren't we vanishing slightly off-topic? Certainly the whole Jewish analogy is vanishing into the far distance, and the De Valera/Collins thing is going the same way.

Re JimmyC's post, I'll take you up on one point. You say that history's shown that the Irish can never trust the British, and several posters here are in favour of NI joining Eire. Trouble is, (a) the Irish government has said it is not interested in taking on NI, (b) the Irish government is working with the UK government in the peace process, (c) previous posters have said that the Republicans can't trust the Irish government. The self-contradiction in this is bizarre.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 06:38 AM

InOBU: Yes, the Warsaw uprising and the resistance in Sobbibar were magnificent but sadly the history of the Nazi persecution of the Jews is an anathema to any civilisation. My point is that the resistance should have started in the 1930s when Hitler was still feeling his way. Too many people believed the fiction of being rehoused and after all for God's sake who would believe that the Government would kill its citizens many of whom had fought in the First World War on the German side and many had been decorated, unlike many of the young Nazi thugs. The Observer of Sunday July 8th has another article on the theme that Western Governments knew fairly early on about the situation. The earliest record I can find about the start of the pogram is in March 1933 when Hitler ordered a boycot of Jews and Jewish shops and the first concentration camp was opened at Dachau. No doubt there were plenty of incidents before then.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 11:49 AM

A peaceful solution means allowing the history to teach us that violence begets more hatred, and it must stop now. Arguments and blame will not restore faith and hope, but maybe ten/twenty years of peace and healing will. I do not pretend to know how; but I do know that killing each other will never allow a solution to be found in my lifetime. Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 11:09 AM

Let's not have the Civil War over again here. They both had their faults and their virtues. If anyone's to be blamed, the first place goes to that cynical wheeler-dealer Lloyd George.If anyone was "directly responsible for the civil war" it was him. And even he was manoeuvring in the context of having people worse than him breathing down his neck.

And like all politicians from Great Britain, then and now, the fate of Ireland was always very much secondary to their own domestic political interests.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 10:23 AM

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the Irish, who would object to an Englishmans version of their history. DeValera deliberately sent Collins into a no win situation to save his own face, knowing the "accepted agreement" would cause division amongst the republicans. Perhaps the way I worded my previous post was misleading, but the fact remains it was a done deal; and DeValera was directly responsible for the civil war. Irishmen killing Irishmen for the sake of Ireland. History, but the fact remains violence continues to this day and will not cease long enough to heal wounds. Time to allow a sorely wounded people to find a peaceful political solution. Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 09:24 AM

Fiolar!
I am running to get to meeting this morning (Like Alison a Protestant who is not Orange!)... but, it has been a very buisy weekend, and I have not had time to comment on the really good conversation going on here. It is a difficult and emotionally charged subject, and folks have been really tring to respect each other, for the most part and that is wonderful.
One thing I can't let pass. Jews did have an active resistance once they learned the extent of the "final solution". Once they found that the camps were not a temporary displacement from the war and political times, they rose up not only in Warsaw, where they fought against unbelievable odds, and for the most part alone, but they rose up in Concentration camps, sometimes with some sucess, as in Sophibor (pardon the spelling)... The fact is that the major powers did not give them suport when it would have counted, and now after the fact, revisionists say they were not brave enough to defend themselves. They were and they did.
All the best,
Larry


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 08:44 AM

Maybe, but it is one thing to disagree and quite another to lead half a country into war about something which you disagree with. After all the Dail voted to accept the Treaty.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 08:38 AM

If Dev hadn't come out against the Treaty, there were plenty who would have. Ordinary people like my father down in Tipperary.

There's no use in reheating up the divisions and disagreements of those days, and picking out scapegoats, whether Dev or Collins or whoever.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 06:02 AM

Dave - sorry to disagree with you but the whole reason the Civil War in Ireland occurred was the hypocrite DeValera did not agree to the terms of the Treaty which Mick Collins and others had signed. He had sent Collins to negotiate and the man got the best deal that was available at the time. Dev on the other hand having had previous "secret" talks with Lloyd George, knew very well that the British Government would not agree to an Irish Republic of 32 counties and so sent Collins to be the sacrificial goat. The fact that Dev later took government and because president shows something about the brass neck of the man.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:42 PM

And that, my dear friends, is why I relentlessly pursue her over cyber hill and dale. Well said FAIR ONE. The whole Protestant/Catholic thing is a phony construct created by those who profit most from it. Where folks say their prayers has nothing to do with it all. I have great faith that the people of goodwill, those who want peace, those Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics, will get this done this time. Unfortunately there will be more martyrs. That is the way of it. But if the world will support those taking the risks for peace.............just peace...............it will happen this time. And they must also denounce forcefully those who don't. I pray that it will be so.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:16 PM

Well put alison... Aye, (praying for the day) Dave


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: alison
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:11 PM

I AM one of those "Ulster Protestants" who is proud to call herself Irish (and was proud of it a long time before I ever moved to Australia.... and no I didn't move because of the troubles)........

I hate this time of year (marching season)...... it makes the world think that all Protestants are Orangemen, or in Loyalist Paramilitary groups... WE"RE NOT!!! nor do we all hate Catholics. Unfortunately the distrust of each other (both "sides") runs deep and is still passed down through the generations, although hopefully now that more people are seeing sense that will change. The majority of people want peace, and I still continue to pray that they get it.

I love Jimmy's idea ....."All parades, loyalists and nationalist alike should be banned for at least 10 years, maybe then we can have a united parade in an atmosphere of fun for all, turn it all into one big happy Mardi Gras type of celebration without the religious overtones."

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 04:32 PM

A few typos in there:P>

We soldiers of Erin, so proud of the name We'll raise upon Rebels and Frenchmen our fame We'll fight to the last in the honest old cause And guard our religion, our freedom and laws We'll fight for our country, our king and his crown And make all the traitors and croppies lie down.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 04:30 PM

The fact that they are so keen to hold on to that RUC badge with the harp on it is a measure of the ambiguity involved in all this. Or again you have a sectarian song like Croppies Lie Down, with the first verse:

We soldiers of Erin, so proud of the name
We'll raise upon Rebels and Fenchmen our fame
We'll fight to theb last in the honest old cause
And guard outr religion, our freedom and laws
Wwe'll fight for our country, our kind and his crown
And make all the traitors and croppies lie down.

If some of them want to make a pretence of not being Irish, that's their business, and I doubt if many of them really believe it. It's when you get anyone agreeing with them that it gets dangerous, because that's the road to ethnic cleansing.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jimmy C
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 04:15 PM

I believe you are quoting " Yeats" and not De Valera


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,irony?
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 04:07 PM

Cummings - ancient Irish family? Looks to me like an English name.

Descendents of settlers murder descendent of settler. The Red Hand of Scotland??, the individuals who do the dirty work are of lower intelligence. The ones issuing the orders probably able to read and write, but still thickos.

Mr David Trimble, it must surely be impinging on his mental fringe somewhere somehow that the Loyalists are now murdering IrishAnglos. Is this like something we have seen before? Yup. 1917.

S.Africa, another center of Orangism, has Police and Army this week are removing poor Black squatters from Government and White's lands. The White's retain 80% of the land. Since the nations to the North have begun giving back to the natives land taken by British settlers in the 1800's and there is similar sentiment at home, it looks as if the NI Orangemen may need to make room for some refugees!

In the teens of this century the British Government murdered by firing squad the leaders ( majority of these men were AngloIrish ) of the Irish Republican Army, a revolutionary movement in Dublin Ireland, thereby bringing closure - so they thought - to a recently failed bloody uprising.

Within 5 years the British HAD to make peace in Ireland with an AngloIrish man, Michael Collins. In that peace to quote Eamon De Valera a 'terrible beauty was born'. Ireland free of foreign domination for the first time in nearly a 1000 years!.

I think Mr. David Trimble is not as foolish as some think him to be! Hey when did any politician ever have an qualms about covering his butt. :)

Whatever you may think or know about this man, I do know he is far better than the idiot of NI, Rev Ian Paisley.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jimmy C
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 04:07 PM

I bet you will never get the likes of Ian Paisley, Davy Jones and their ilk to ever claim to be Irish. A few years ago during a television talk show, Gerry Adams challenged a leading Orange politician to admit to being Irish, right there on the TV and he would not. (I think it was Ken Magennis). I lived among them for more than 25 years and I have never met one who will openly admit to being Irish. I mean orangemen not protestants in general.

The Scots may call themselves British but will call themselves Scottish as well, ditto for the Welsh, but this is not the case in the six counties.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 12:47 PM

Yes, I've spent time in Northern Ireland. And I was objecting to the generalisation that suggested that seemed to suggest that everyone on the Protestant/Unionist side of the divide didn't consider themselves Irish. And I note that GUEST (you must have a handle of some kind) agrees with me on that.

But even where people see themselves as "British", in most cases that doesn't mean they don't see themselves as Irish as well. No one would suggest that a Scot who doesn't support independence for Scotland isn't a Scot. Even if they might think he or she was a fool.

And some of the most extreme "Loyalists" don't even in any sense aspire to be British, but something totally separate.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 11:14 AM

McGrath of Harlow,

Have you spent any time in Northern Ireland? I ask this because it has been my experience that some people from the Protestant/unionist/loyalist communities will identify themselves as Irish (and indeed much prefer that to "Anglo Irish"). But in my experience, most people from those communities do continue to identify themselves as British. Often not in an antagonistic way--it is just the way they identify themselves. As long as Northern Ireland is part of the UK, they are still accurate to self-identify themselves in that way, in the same way a Scottish nationalist can still identify themselves as British, and sometimes (often?) do, especially to Americans, or when participating in these international forums where they wish to identify themselves according to their citizen status of one country or another.

It is a bit like marching through a mine field for those outside these islands, trying to figure out just how you might refer to someone's nationality without starting a bloody flamewar!


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 11:00 AM

"Except Orangemen do not consider themselves Irish. "

Now that's a dodgy generalisation if there ever was one. If it means all Northern Irish Protestants, it's just not true. If it means all members of those marching organisations with the Bowler Hats, it's not true either.

At one time Unionism was about a minority in Ireland who wanted to keep the whole of Ireland linked to England. More recently it's about one bunch of Irish wanting to stay separate from another bunch of Irish, and making use of the English connection to strengthen their hands.

I don't think anyone has ever suggested that the Confederates didn't consider themselves Americans. (And I believe they hoped at one point of trying to bring in the English to help them.)

Yeah, and I'm sure it's quite possible to find people in Northern Ireland who would say they didn't consider themselves Irish in any sense.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:56 AM

I don't really believe the most hardened loyalists will keep fighting once the British government is gone, and reunification with the Republic, or assimilation into the EU (whichever comes first) occurs. They will be so marginalized, as to be wholly ineffective.

As you say, Jimmy C, most Ulster Protestants will not identify themselves as anything but British, even after hundreds of years and many generations of their ancestors living in Ireland. As someone else said, British loyalists and unionists, once they emigrate to the US or Canada, identify themselves as having been Irish. But that is because the tide has turned in NA. Despite the fact that the Anglo American institutions of Canada and the US still retain their power, the perception of Anglocentric culture is often quite negative, whereas Irish culture is more often seen as positive.

It wasn't like that in North America 30+ years ago, when the Troubles began. Then, the perceptions were reversed.

But to be fair, many Ulster Protestants nowadays would just as soon not be associated with either the Church of Ireland or the Orange Order, in the same ways that many Irish Catholics don't want to be associated with their church. The reasons behind that have nothing to do with the Troubles, really, and everything to do with the decline in membership and lifestyle habits which no longer put religion at the center of social life. In that sense, Ireland, north and south, is just like any other modern Western country.

It also discounts the "religious conflict" theory to a large extent.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:56 AM

Jim. I have never believed in disarmament as being anything other than a "feel good wimpy liberal idea" that is both stupid and unworkable. However the symbolic laying down of arms is a vital part of the peace process in NI. The IRA are not what I fear, I fear revenge killings by angry and hateful individuals who will do anything to destroy such a political process. The bombings and violence serve unto small purpose, whatever is said here. As human beings, I pray that the drums and marches will be just as you say; a celebration of history, and a reminder of how fragile life is, and how precious we are to each others survival. Had I been killed I would not want to be avenged, but have my death serve as a reminder of how much I loved people who are catholic and protestant Christians. Ulstermen and Republicans. Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jimmy C
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:39 AM

Dave,
It appears to be as you say, except Orangemen do not consider themselves Irish. They may have been born there, probably their ancestors were also born there, but you will find very few who will openly admit to being Irish, unless they leave and go to Canada, Australia or other parts and then they are as Irish as anybody else..
They have been a priviliged class since the state was set up, the majority they claim to have is an artificial majority, they see the writing on the wall and sooner or later will realize that they are a minority in most parts of the six counties.
If they don't change soon they will leave a legacy to their descendants of being a hated minority in the new Ireland that will come, and come sooner than most expect.
Just read some of their responses to recent changes regarding housing, employment etc., what should be considered basic civil rights for catholics are referred to as concessions. Even little children going to school in Ardoyne are asked to walk an extra mile to gain entry to the school rather than walk past a few orange houses, and yet they want the right to parade down the Garvaghy Road with their sashes and bands playing anti-catholic tunes.
They better waken up and do it soon. I believe that many Protestants realize this, and all protestants are not automatically orangemen by the way. When the time comes for Ireland to be united, you can bet your boots that the doctors, lawyers and big farmers will not be on the streets fighting. But the die-hards from the Shankill, Tigers Bay and a few other areas will and there are still many guns and explosive devices in these areas, that is one reason why the IRA cannot give up all their weapons,
Another reason is that handing over weapons is a sign of surrender by a defeated force, and that is not the case, The Provo IRA agreed to a ceasefire and have adhered to it in the face of provocation. They did not agree to a surrender. The decommissoning of weapons was part of the agreement, the removal of military bases in south Armagh and other parts was also a part of the agreement, the new policing system was another part. All parts have to be implemented, but it looks like a case of " You do it first" and this will not fly.
History has shown that the Irish cannot trust the British, the nationalists cannot trust the police, and that is the real problem.
I wish the guns were destroyed, and I mean all guns, nationalist guns, loyalist guns, police guns and I wish that the loyalist community will grasp civil rights for what they are, and they are not concessions, they are rights.
Just last week Davie Jones a counsellor in the Portadown region met with the parades commission as a representative of the whole community to overturn the decision to reroute the orange parade returning from Drumcree Church. 42% of his constituents are nationalists, what sort of representation is that ?.
All parades, loyalists and nationalist alike should be banned for at least 10 years, maybe then we can have a united parade in an atmosphere of fun for all, turn it all into one big happy Mardi Gras type of celebration without the religious overtones, It would be good for tourism and everyone will have a great time as friends and a laugh at they way their ancestors used to fight among themselves ?, IT could happen .


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:31 AM

Fiolar. No argument from me about Collins and the struggle to become a republic. My point is that although Ulster was cut out of the republic, it was at (the time) a compromise agreed to by Devalera. The civil war in the republic afterwards (in which Collins was killed) reinforces what I say. Englands investment in the industry and people of Ulster could not be ignored, given the circumstances of the day. There has been much acrimony and unfairness since that division (I do not not care to debate) but had people learned to stop hating and killing long enough to heal some of the wounds, a political solution would be simpler and possible. The plea of the majority is to let this healing commence. History taught us that it took 11 years of peaceful negotiation, after 1776, before all 13 colonies could agree to sign what became the US constitution. All of them working toward a unified agreement. All of them equal partners and with unified goals. This is something to remember when talking politics in Ireland. It will not happen at all if the killing continues. Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:25 AM

I suppose "Masada shall not fall again" means "always be stronger in arms than the people you are fighting". Masada fell because they were up against an enemy which was very much stronger. Nothing to do with any notions of non-violent resistance or whatever.

If you aren't in a situation to be stronger in arms than your opponents - if for example you're a republican in Northern Ireland, or a Palestinian in the Holy Land today - the only way you can be stronger is if you can outlast them, and take more punishment than they can give.

This means that, even if it's a struggle involving extreme violence, at its heart is a non-violent strategy. The violence is essentially symbolic - by which I don't mean that it is not lethal, but rather that its central purpose is not to achieve military victory, but to act as proof of a continuing resolve, and to bring it home to the people on the other side that they can never win. The purpose of non-violence would be to do the same thing, but in a way that did not poison the future in the same way, even if it involved as much human cost in the short run.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,AussieJohn
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:13 AM

This is a fascinating thread in which many things are turning out to be not as they first seem to be: English John is 'more Irish than the Irish', Maire the ardent NI nationalist is a US citizen. Am I right in believing that Ireland's main troubles stem from: 1.British conquest of Ireland and settlement of large numbers of its own people there who were (and are) loyal to her? 2.The eventual withdrawal of British authority to the north-eastern corner of Ireland to retain an area wherein the majority of the people would be loyal and be able to exercise a comfortable 'democratic' hegemony over the remainder? 3.That thus came about the forced incorporation of some half-million or more nationalists inside a specially created state with about a million unionists? 4.That the existance of that state was (and is) guaranteed by the British government which for whatever reason wishes to retain it as a part of the UK? 5.That the Brits were (and are) prepared to use military force to maintain the status quo? 6.That Britain was (and is) therefore responsible for the evils that befell NI and brought about the Civil Rights campaign in the 60sand 70s? 7.That Britain at first attempted to deal with the troubles as an 'honest broker' with no stake in the outcome other than fair dealings with all parties? 8.That almost immediately Britain turned to her 'own' people in NI to get advice on the ground and discounted any proffered advice from the 'other' side (including Dublin)? 9.That Britain thus lost the opportunity of playing a positive role and instead fell into the old attitude of taking her own very presence in Ireland as the sole arbiter of what was 'good' for the locals? 10. That Britain accordingly encouraged the unionists to adopt (or maintain the most extreme positions as regards any settlement of one of the longest running colonial wars of all?

Rationalisations about holding NI for NATO etc do not hold up. A united or even federated Ireland would surely be prepared to be 'friendly' towards her European neighbors, indeed Devalera hinted almost as much at the outbreak of WW2. No, it is an atavistic longing to retain a last fragment of empire among establishment circles in Whitehall, the military and landed gentry with interests in both countries that make it so difficult for mainstream Britain to see that she is part of the problem and needs to think 'outside the square' if she is to be part of the solution.

So long as Britain continued to guarantee the on-going existance of a separate NI state there never could be peace. Now with the Good Friday Agreement, Britain has gone further than ever before in recognising the need to take the rest of Ireland into account in any settlement of the troubles. Now she must take the most difficult step yet in undoing the mischief she created. She must bite the bullet and insist on the dismantling of the RUC in return for IRA disbandment and the creation of a new police service along 'Patten' lines. The unionists will be 'outraged' of course and Paisley will forecast 'armageddon' (once again), but if Britain holds firm most unionists will realise that its finally reality time and that they actually can share the country with the 'Free State' without losing their religious or political or economic freedoms. But this will only happen if the British people abandon simplistic notions like, 'THEY are at it again in Ireland' and 'a plague on both their boring houses'. Remember YOUR government built both houses, whether or not their purpose was benign.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:09 AM

Dave while I appreciate your comments, I think it worth pointing out that there was no way Ireland was going to get her freedom unless people were prepared to resort to violence sad as it was. Michael Collins the master-mind behind the fight for freedom saw this quite clearly. The history of the Home Rule Bill going all the way back to Gladstone saw failure after failure of its implementation either due to threats or parliamentary defeats. Collins however was prepared to negotiate from a position of some strength when it came to the crunch. Do you honestly think that Lloyd George and the others would have given a tinker's curse if Collins and the other delegates had gone to London cap in hand saying "please sir, I want Britain to give us a Free State." The point about Masada is that people are prepared to die for their country to ensure that it stays free.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 09:42 AM

Fiolar. Israel was fighting an invading foreign army. Irelands problem is much more complex. Irishmen fighting Irishmen for the sake of Ireland? Murder, violence and retribution, will only achieve another 300 years of murder violence and retribution. Hate and revenge is the only legacy it passes on to each generation. Emulate the past and the only future is mutual destruction. Surely we must stop the killing and think of the future? It is time we embraced one another; we are too much alike to hate each other like this. Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:34 AM

It is helpful when people make the necessary distinctions between the theology or philosophy of non-violence, and the use of non-violence as a political tactic.

The former, like liberation theology, seeks to establish a theoretical model to be used to fight oppression. The philosophies of well and little known champions of non-violence have often used in this way. There really hasn't been much incontrovertible "proof" that it has worked one way or the other.

The instances cited here as models of this philosphy (the partitioning of India/Pakistan, in El Salvador, and in the American South during the Civil Rights era) are examples of how people tried to implement the models in contexts of extreme violence. How effective the use of non-violence was in these instances is pretty controversial, despite the insistence of some true believers that non-violence "worked" in these situations.

The latter is a use of non-violence as a political tactic like any other. It is most often used only as long as it deemed effective in the context. This would include "sit-in" type demonstrations where people chain themselves to fences. The civil rights movement used it to great effect, but the anti-war movement of the 60s just never did seem to be able to get it together with this tactic. I would also add, the civil rights movement used it as a political tactic much more than it did as a philosophy of non-violence. The supposed non-violent philosophy of King has much more to do with his post-assasination legacy as embodied by his wife, than with what King actually believed in at the time.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:21 AM

Makes one wonder if the Jews in Germany and the other occupied countries had taken up guns against Hitler and his thugs whether the situation would have been different. Just a thought. I'm all for modern Israel's slogan "Masada Shall Not Fall Again."


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:15 AM

"If non-violence and bowing to so-called higher authority worked" - bowing to higher authority is no part of non-violent resistance. Non-violence doesn't stop people getting terrorised and brutalised, but then nor does violence.

But then dying in a hunger strike is a lot harder than being killed in battle. People are capable of the most incredible heroism - and that is what a non-violent struggle needs if it to be effective.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:59 AM

One of the most insightful articles on Drumcree I've ever read at a mainstream media site.

In today's Irish Times, an article by Fintan O'Toole:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/newsfeatures/2001/0707/newsfeatures8.htm


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 06:39 AM

The use of non-violence in Nothern Ireland is a red herring as for years the Catholic community were terrorised by the B-Specials and the so called peace-keepers the RUC, and before any one rushes in and tells me that I am maligning a great police force, just remember some of the incidents over the years. I think it was an Inspector Nelson (apologies if I am wrong) who massacred a Catholic family and later got promoted. Also remember Burntollet and God only knows how many other incidents. If non-violence and bowing to so-called higher authority worked - great but just look around the world and in the pages of history. With very few exceptions, states which today are independent and valued members of the world community nearly always got their independence by turning to "violence." Shall I start with the USA and progress to the Irish Republic, Kenya and so many others. Also the calls for the decommissioning of IRA weapons is really another obstacle by the Unionists who let's face it just do not want to share power with the Nationalists. If a head count is taken of the number killed by gunshot say as compared to those killed by bombs, I know which would be the greater. Bombs can so easily be made from fertilizer and sugar. With regard to Trimble "apologising" it says something of the man who uttered the lie in the first place. Does he think that a few words uttered before the cameras can heal the hurt and anguish that his original words caused and remember there are always lunatics in that benighted place who will believe his first statement rather than his second.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:49 PM

Maire, would you be so kind as to email me at mlane@accn.org? Since you are not a member I cannot send you a PM via the Mudcat. Drop me a line.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 05:30 PM

I've been trying to think of anything that Gandhi could have done that would have stopped the violence and the breakup of INdia and Pakistan. Or anything he did that contributed to it. What he did do certainly reduced the number of deaths, and led to his own death, at the hands of a fellow Hindu.

There are situations where in practice violence is inevitable. Gandhi once said that if the only choice was between violent resistance to injustice and no resistance, violence was the better choice - but non-violent resistance was the best choice, and the only one that could achieve true justice in the long run.

Non-violent resistance in Northern Ireland over the years - and that includes a willingness to die if necessary, the same willingness shown by the hunger strikers - could, I believe have got us to a just peace settlement sooner and with more hope for the future than the 30 years of violent struggle. Maybe it wasn't possible, noone can ever know that. I think it could have been possible.

The trouble is people see non-violence as a way of avoiding suffering. It isn't, it's a way of channelling the inevitable suffering so that it builds rather than destroys.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Grab
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 03:02 PM

An invalid assumption on my part Maire - I'd assumed from your knowledge of the situation that you were from NI. The "foaming at the mouth" was a slight joke, but irrelevant.

As far as voting goes, the young voters have been empowered to vote for Sinn Fein or the UUP or whoever they want from age 18. The reason they haven't is exactly what Jon said, the political parties have not offered anything which appeals to them. This time around, Sinn Fein have offered a political package which is in line with what ppl want, and they've therefore made big electoral gains - that's democracy. If you're right about Sinn Fein attracting previously-disaffected voters, then Jon's point is strengthened by this.

I'm not arguing that everyone in Britain follows the government line - rather, exactly the opposite. You appear to believe that in spite of our personal political beliefs (I voted Lib Dem, BTW), all British ppl are collectively responsible for the actions of our government. I was pointing out that it's no more the case than that the Catholic population of NI is responsible for David Trimble's actions - or, in your case, that you are personally responsible for George Bush (perish the thought :-)! If it turns out that you've voted in the minority, that means that your views are not represented. It's not great, but that system also stops ppl like the BNP from getting political representation, and for that I am eternally grateful.

Maybe Sinn Fein has no power in mainland Britain - that much is true. That's the whole purpose of these local Assemblies, so that individual areas can be run to the benefit of the local ppl by the local politicians, instead of being run from a distance by Westminster. If the Assembly ran to plan, Sinn Fein would have a great deal of power there, and therefore would have a considerable say in how things worked.

As far as "political violence" goes, history shows that these weapons will be used almost exclusively against civilians - this will be even more the case now that the British Army is out of the picture. This is entirely counter to the purpose of this thread, which was commemorating a young Irish boy killed for no good reason. The purpose of having these weapons is to threaten violence against (a) the police and (b) the Unionist community. As for claiming that these weapons are required to protect the Republicans against British nuclear weapons and cluster bombs, that's just silly.

After some searching, I found this site which gives the actual stats on how many ppl have been shot or beaten per year. Neither side is blameless, although the Unionists are the worse offenders.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 02:59 PM

BBC Northern Ireland reports:

"Ulster Unionist leader David Trimble has apologised to the family of the murdered County Antrim teenager shot dead on Wednesday.

The former Northern Ireland first minister had claimed the murder of 19-year-old Ciaran Cummings was a result of a link with drugs and had been carried out by republicans.

Speaking outside Hillsborough Castle in County Down on Friday, Mr Trimble said the information he had received had been false and he would now like to withdraw his comments. "


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 02:33 PM

(Once again, the problem is religion. If these people's ancestors hadn't each decided that the other ones' supernatural being was inferior to their own supernatural being, none of this would be happening. Again.)


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Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 01:48 PM

This has been a great, spirited discussion, but I'm off-line now for the weekend myself!

Spaw--I really have an excellent grasp of historical knowledge about the U.S., Britain, and Ireland. I did not say "all" British and American...

I said "too many"

It is a very real problem, in my opinion. The bohemian bourgeois in both countries, which have a dangerous tendency to talk a lot, strike poses of an inauthentic social radicalism, and behave like right wing reactionaries whenever the subject of political violence rears it's ugly head.

Pacifist and non-violent movements have led too many naive lambs to the slaughter, in my opinion...from the American South, to El Salvador, to India/Pakistan.

How do you justify those deaths? How do you justify Gandhi's role in the partitioning of India and Pakistan, which has now put the world at very real risk of nuclear war?


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