Another Sectarian Killing

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 01:30 PM

Graham states:

"Some politicians on both sides in NI are acceding to popular pressure to change. Some aren't. The ones that aren't will eventually fail to be re-elected, and therefore things change."

Which is what happened in the most recent election. However, Sinn Fein's gains weren't made by taking voters from other parties. Their gains were made by bringing in a new generation of young voters who have been empowered to take political action of consequence. No other party in Ireland, north or south, has been able to do this in the past 10 years.

And then goes on to say:

"The idea of the NI Assembly is to allow NI self-government on issues like day-to-day running of the country and law and order. Is it working? Not too well, bcos both sides in NI don't (or won't, or can't; spin-doctor it how you will) trust each other or the British and Irish governments."

The devolution movement in Britain includes devolved assemblies and powers throughout the UK, ie Scotland and Wales as well. How well is it working in those instances? It is all relative. There is profoud mistrust of London, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Belfast, and Dublin too for that matter. This is a *process* which is on-going. Eventually, I believe, we'll see independence for both Ireland and Scotland, and their assimilation into the EU, if current government trends in Dublin and Edinburgh are anything to go by.

And then:

"And remember, no-one in Britain elects politicians for the NI Assembly - that's your choice, and the NI Assembly depends on NI politicians running things. I know you didn't vote for Trimble, but he's the head of the Assembly, and therefore you are as responsible for his actions as Jon is for the actions of Tony Blair - you can't have it both ways. Think on."

You are assuming too much about me here. I'm an American citizen.

You are really arguing the old British government propaganda line here Graham. Sinn Fein is a republican party, not unlike the SNP in Scotland. The latter has aspirations for independence from Britain. The former is a party demanding reunification with the Republic of Ireland. You are acting like everyone on the British mainland is in lock-step with Downing Street. That is disingenuous.

I don't foam at the mouth about the north being part of the UK at all. I recognize it as a reality that has to be dealt with, as the process works its way towards eventual reunification of the north with the Republic. I don't have a problem with Britain. Just a problem with Britain in Ireland. Like I do with the U.S. in _______(fill in the blank). And I am serious about that, but you may not get my point!

And then:

"What democracy doesn't mean is using violence as a tool to bring pressure to bear (or as a tool of government, something of which the British Government has also been guilty of)."

Oh come on, there has been use of political violence as a tool to bring about democratic change for centuries. This is such a bullshit argument. Graham--war and violence worked very well for the U.S. to gain independence from England. It worked in France.

Many democratic reforms have been brought about through the use of both state sponsored and so-called terrorist sponsored political violence--if you wish to deny the reality of history, go ahead. But it won't change the fact that both governments and the people who oppose them, use violence as a means to their end.

Having said that, I am committed to movements for democratic change who try to bring that change about non-violently wherever possible. But there have been plenty of instances in history where it wasn't possible or even plausible. And that continues to be true today.

The IRA is not a signatory to the GFA. They continue to keep their arsenals because it is one of the few bargaining chips, along with Sinn Fein's electoral gains, the republican community has in negotiations. Strategically, they'd be fools to put their weapons beyond use at this point, when no meaningful political change has yet taken hold.

It is important to keep in mind that Sinn Fein is extremely marginalized in this process, and truly wields no power or authority within the power structure of Northern Ireland or Britain. They also aren't using the weapons--their ceasefire has held for years. If that ain't enough for the British, the British Unionists, and the Irish government, then they are, as BigMick stated, not genuinely interested in peace--they are merely interested in maintaining the status quo that keeps them in power--in this instance, destabilizing life on the ground, and terrorizing the republican and nationalist communities in order to provoke retaliatory violence, which will then be used as a club to beat Sinn Fein out of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

I agree with you completely about how the GFA should not be linked to decommissioning, but to the operation of inclusive, democratic political and social institutions. However, the British government, the U.S. government, the French government, and many other presumed democratic political institutions, currently hold a shitload of the most destructive weapons--ya know--nukes, cluster bombs, fighter jets, subs, etc--on the planet. And they use them regularly against innocent civilians all the time.

So I find arguments claiming that IRA weaponry is a barrier to democracy to be pretty specious. What is blocking progress towards democratic rule in Northern Ireland are the Ulster Unionists and Loyalists, the British and Irish governments, and the global media cartel.

The most important, salient point to be made regarding IRA weapons is that they haven't been used in years. Loyalist weapons, RUC weapons, British security forces weapons, and EU water cannons, have been and continue to be used, with great regularity against the citizens of Northern Ireland, regardless of what community they are from.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 01:01 PM

Maire, while I do not disagree with many of your points and stance, I would suggest that.....

Too many bourgeois British, like their American counterparts, tend to justify their apathy and indifference towards political violence, tyranny, and injustice, with this pacifist PC crap. They live in wealthy, comparatively free societies, where political violence and crushing poverty are largely unknown to them, and everyone they come in contact with in their daily lives.

.....this statemnet on your part suggests a lack of historical knowledge of the US. Certainly it's a blanket condemnation and while it may have an element of truth, I'd say that it a bit naive at best. It's a generalization of the worst kind and serves no purpose.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Grab
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 12:47 PM

Guest, unless you have an identity, you're a troll. If you want to be taken seriously then post with an identity, or be ignored as a troll.

Re Maire's comments, certainly a democracy means groups of ppl with the same opinion banding together to bring pressure on the government. It happens, and things change. Some politicians on both sides in NI are acceding to popular pressure to change. Some aren't. The ones that aren't will eventually fail to be re-elected, and therefore things change.

The idea of the NI Assembly is to allow NI self-government on issues like day-to-day running of the country and law and order. Is it working? Not too well, bcos both sides in NI don't (or won't, or can't; spin-doctor it how you will) trust each other or the British and Irish governments. And remember, no-one in Britain elects politicians for the NI Assembly - that's your choice, and the NI Assembly depends on NI politicians running things. I know you didn't vote for Trimble, but he's the head of the Assembly, and therefore you are as responsible for his actions as Jon is for the actions of Tony Blair - you can't have it both ways. Think on.

(BTW, as a member of the UK (whether you like it or not) you are also responsible for voting Tony Blair in - now that's guaranteed to get you foaming at the mouth! :-) I'm not even half-serious here, but you see the point.)

What democracy doesn't mean is using violence as a tool to bring pressure to bear (or as a tool of government, something of which the British Government has also been guilty of). I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, merely pointing out that any group which still keeps hold of weapons (and, worst case, keeps using them) cannot say it's supporting democracy, since there's the implied threat that if they find themselves on the losing side in a vote, they will simply pick up their guns and go back to violence. The point is that holding onto guns does not protect your community from violence, bcos the person with the gun is (by sheer percentages, if nothing else) unlikely to be the one attacked. Holding onto weapons merely gives opportunity for retaliation.

As far as democracy goes, I'm dead against the GFA linking a progression towards democracy with decommissioning and deactivation by terrorist organisations. Democracy should be there regardless. However, this has been put forward by ppl who, as you say, "appreciate the realities of the situation on the ground", ie. that the "political parties" in fact have large caches of arms and ppl ready to use them. This then has the situation we've got now, where the terrorists can stall the GFA. Catering for the "realities" is therefore responsible for failure of the democracy programme - if the two were not tied together then democracy could still go forward and the terrorists would merely find themselves sidelined.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 12:30 PM

Fiolar,

It is amazing. One main point I'd like to get across here is that cynicim and apathy about politics can have murderous results, and that compelling actions, taken as a form of expressing one's righteous anger, can have tremendously positive, constructive and far reaching political consequences.

Too many bourgeois British, like their American counterparts, tend to justify their apathy and indifference towards political violence, tyranny, and injustice, with this pacifist PC crap. They live in wealthy, comparatively free societies, where political violence and crushing poverty are largely unknown to them, and everyone they come in contact with in their daily lives.

In other words, they call well afford to be pacifists. Especially when, like English Jon, they can't be bothered with righting injustices they, as citizens of the nation who's government is responsible for those injustices--requires thinking and too difficult an effort to bring about substantial, meaningful political and social change.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 12:01 PM

Amazing how the thread has "twisted."

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:51 AM

Glad you asked!

In the wake of elections held in the former Yugoslavia in 1996, the government refused to honor the election results. The whistle protest was the people's response to their election being hijacked. Euro News ran the protest in the "No Comment" spot for awhile as I recall. Similar to Irish republican women's bin lid protests.

The Greens in Germany, amongst some others, have tried to adapt it to other circumstances. But the whistle protest, and the strikes that went along with it, eventually forced the government to honor the election results.

It was the real beginning of the end in Belgrade for Milosevic & his cronies.

I got this lovely historic piece off the 'net quite some time ago and saved it--written by a woman involved in an organization I think was called East-West Women, or maybe it was from the Women in Black organization. Anyway, it came from a non-nationalist feminist website in Belgrade.

Enjoy!

Belgrade, 84th day of protest

By Lepa Mladjenovic [e-mail] 13 February 1997

Beograd - The political situation in Serbia has not changed much yet. There has been passed a special law in the Serbian parliament about accepting the results of election - which was the main cause for beginning the protests. Now the opposition and the people are waiting to see if the law will be promptly implemented, in the meantime :

1. Students are still in daily protest. They are walking again every day throughout Belgrade, starting from noon untill up to 3pm. The police is not at all appearing during their protest.

2. Opposition coalition 'Zajedno' are still in daily protests as well. They usually start with inviting people to come out during the TV News to bang and whistle in the certain places in each community. then they all get together and walk up to the center of town, and around 9pm the opposition leaders start speaking. The police is set up between street and the pavement and does not bother protestants any more, in the last week it is so.

3. All the faculties of all universities in three university cities are in strike, and there are no lectures for three months now.

4. From the 2,200 primary and high schools in Serbia, 1,800 are in strike (We are talking of public schools).

5. The trade union of school teachers has organized two-days protest in front of the parlaiment, today and tomorrow, at noontime.

6. All the kindergardens in Belgrade are in strike / closed down.

7. In 42 towns in Serbia there are in some kind of opposition or student protests against the regime.

8. In few towns in Serbia local women's organizations are organizing women on the street to oppose the fact that mothers with children have not get their child benefit (if that is the term) in the last 11 months!

9. Women's Study Center does not reopen for the next semester untill the University reopens.

10. On and off, the theaters and cinemas are in strike.

11. Vesna Pesic, the founder of the Antiwar Center and the leader of the Civil Alliance opposition party has been nominated for Nobel Peace Prize together with Vesna Terselic, the founder and the Coordinator of the Anti War Campaign in Zagreb (Croatia), and the leader of the only non nationalist party in Bosnia and Hercegovina, 'Union of Bosnian Social Democrats', Selim Beslagic from Tuzla. Feminists first of all support Vesna Terselic, she is an active feminist and peace activist and a beautiful woman. Vesna Pesic is pro-feminist, and Selim Beslagic was the only city major, in Tuzla, in the entire Bosnia and Hercegovina who succeeded during the war to spread non-nationalist politics in his town. That was very dangerous and very difficult.

Comments of a feminist:

First, one has to note that primary and high schools and kindergardens are full of women and mostly lead by women. The President of their indipended trade union of teachers is a women. Also, the teachers have a long history of strikes since their salaries are very low and conditions for work very poor more than 6 years now.

Shall we ask why, if feminsits have long time ago made an analysis of female dominated jobs and their status in society compared to some others. OK.

Second,

I wil describe the scene from tonight.

So, the people are not banging on their widnows anymore, but they come out at a certain square and they bang together for half an hour there. The part of the town where I live is called Dorcol: it is one of the oldest parts of town where Jews and Gypsies used to live. In the Second World War, from 11.000 of Jews only 200 remained, others were killed in the concentration camps. So Dorcol does not have any more Jews but does have old people, poor people and Gypsies/Roma. Tonight the mood among people was very merry. There were lots of young girls and boys whistling, one of them had a name of his high school on a banner, there were families with kids, there were women who came out with pots and tops of the pots, so either banging on the top with spoons, or banging two tops one on the other. . . there was one middle aged Gypsy man and his son. Usually they are not concerned with the white Serbian governement, they dont feel it as theirs, and they are rarely seen on these protests (which are mainly lead by the bourgeois). But the father and the son were there. The father had a huge red plastic watch in which the time appears in big digital numbers. He had a big transistor near his ears. The transistor was wrapped with rope because some big elements were sticked to the back and the batterie were on the edge of falling down but were not. The Roma man was making noise with the folk music, and his son had a whistle, and they were part of the non-Roma crowd. Just near them there was an old granny, very old, maybe over 70 or 80 years old. She had probably put the white boots on reverse, she must have had a reason, and she had a very red whistle in her mouth, coat, and the metal tray in one hand and the wooden spoon in the other. She was seriously banging without stop. Among the crowd in the middle of the intersection in Dorcol, and therefore the traffick was stopped, there were many women of all ages whistling, they looked so powerfull and touching, whoever they are.

lepa mladjenovic, 13 februar, 1997, beograd

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:22 AM

OH! One more point... I wish to state my complete solidary with English Jon on the subject of Riverdance...
Larry
Wars can end when we find something to agree on,... especially when it is a new scape goat, a quote from Omar the Duck,

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: SDShad
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:15 AM

"Whistle protests?"

Sparks my curiosity. My Google Search (or, excuse me, Google Sewch, uh-hah-hah-hah--sorry, see the Multilingual Google thread) yields nothing on the term. What were the whistle protests, Maire?

Slan,

Chris

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:08 AM

English Jon wrote:

"Politicians WILL NOT allow democracy to stand in their way."

In a democracy, people don't allow politicians to stand in the way of justice and fairness.

That is in a democracy, the rights to freely dissent and to freely assemble are so essential for staging effective protests against political and other institutions wielding the power of the state.

Remember the whistle protests?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: SDShad
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:08 AM

Good though, Maire, but nope. Wilde died in 1900. His sodomy conviction and sojourn in the prison system (including the infamous Reading Gaol) came in 1895 (to 1897).

From the website where I looked up the dates:

During his final fever, he still retained his wit: "My wallpaper and I are fighting a duel to the death. One or the other of us has to go..."

God, I love the man's wit.

But Wilde's persection and downfall are a good bellweather of what Victorian and post-Victorian attitudes towards gays were in British society. Of course that witch-hunt mentality continued well into the twentieth century, bringing down and killing a genuine, if at the time unsung, British hero, Alan Turing, during the 1950s. Among others.

Chris

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:00 AM

Good point Chris, I'd not thought of that.

Was Wilde a contemporary of Casement's? Wouldn't the homophobic campaign used against Wilde to imprison him have occurred round the same time as the campaign against Casement was waged?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: SDShad
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:59 AM

Whoops! InOBU made many of my points for me, while I was still out on the Web checking facts on Casement. Cheers, Larry, and you do make an important distinction that I forgot to include: the guns he was given were in fact Russian (hadn't caught that one yet), and the troops he sought were Irish POWs.

Chris

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:54 AM

English Jon,

Being a bigot has nothing to do with one's ancestry or where one lives.

There is no shortage of self-loathing, West Brit Irish bigots living in Dublin, who regularly rubbish the republicans and nationalists.

If there were, we'd have a united Ireland by now.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: SDShad
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:54 AM

Yes, Jon. Casement did "side with Germany," but you've got the wrong war: WW1, not WW2. It's not as if he were a Nazi collaborator.

But further, Casement's involvement with the Germans was a function of his Irish Nationalism; he had been involved in the Gaelic League and the IRB long before all that happened. Like many Nationalists of his day, he saw "England's difficulty as Ireland's opportunity"; seeking assistance from England's enemies when she is at war was a centuries-old tradition in both Ireland and Scotland. Casement was "pro-German" in the same sense that many other leaders and participants of 1916 were: Pearse, Connolly, Collins, de Valera, etc. Are they to be as vilified as Casement, too? Or just Casement, because he was the one who actually travelled to Berlin to ask for arms and troops?

Having now read up a bit on Casement, I also have to wonder if the special vilification of him at the time of his execution was out of what we today would term "gay-bashing." How many people who today see him as a traitor to Britain (or, on the other side, aren't too enthusiastic about including him in the pantheon of the martyrs of 1916), realize that those old attitudes were, at the time, closely intertwined with an anti-homosexual smear campaign against him between his arrest and execution?

Chris

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:49 AM

Whoops one more correction. The rifles weren't on the submarine, they were on the frieghter, Aud. The Submarine, (at first the U21 under Lut. Com. Walter Swieger, the boat that sank the Lusitania) developed engine troble and had to return to Germany, so Roger was late to arive in Tralee bay. Waiting on the shore was Morty O'Leary, (who's grnadson taught me to build currachs). Morty was to be the pilot for the Aud, but she kept giving the wrong signal. Morty knew it was the Aud, but was stuborn and off that beach he would not go, until he got the right signal. Meanwhile the six young lad who were to bring Morty the new signal had driven off Connor Pass and were killed in the crash. So, the HMS Otway (no kidding) spoted the Aud, and well the rest is history.
Just one more to say, thank god for cheep watches...
Larry

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:43 AM

Hi English Jon:
I enjoyed and apreciate most of your intitial responce to my post. A few corrections, then we'll have a pint. (Make mine diet coke, my liver is gone). We Otways are related by marrage to the Casements, so I have always had a soft spot for the fellow who's last misfortune culmanated at Banna Strand (first Corection) where he was captured after a bad soaking, and hideing in McKenna's fort until he contracted such a bad cold etc. that after his lack of medical help in prision, he would have died if he were not hanged. (yup handed not shot). Sir Roger was looking - not for aid from the Germans, with whom he had no special problem, it being the first not the second world war (a war that the IRA sent troops to Spain while the British Government (I stand corrected) sat on the fence, where they fought with individuals of the British working class, like Jamie Foyers)... well anyway he was looking to have captured Irishmen returned to fight in Ireland. He found no volunteers, but he did get a load of useless Russian (not German contrary to the ballads) rifles, which, thank god, went down on the Aud (the safest place to stand when they were fired was directly in front of them, as they often threw their bolts, killing the shooter!)
Well, where were we, Ah yes, Roger decided after a short time, he couldn't STAND the Germans, (even the royal family I presume!) so... (hey there is a point, could he wanted out of the Empire BECAUSE he couldn't stand Germans?... well, he should have met our own dear Wolfgang, maybe history would have been different, eh?)
Fact is, on democracy in Britain, where I would agree with you is that in an environment of overt political censorship, one cannot have democracy. But the tut tut tut, comes of the plauge upon both your houses rhetoric "You can't solve fuck all with a bullet" I took to mean that waring sides in Ireland were both at fault. If you meant that to be a three way equation, I stand corrected an appologize. But you can't have two sides pointing a gun at the third and telling that side, disarm, and expect change!
Best wishes,
Larry

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:43 AM

Guest who has read the entire thread will see my apology has already been given.

To refresh:

"I guess it was inevitable that this would upset somebody. Oh well, Sorry, but it's just how I feel about it. "

nothing racist or biggoted about not wanting to kill anyone, now is there? If pacifism defines me as a Racist then fine, me and Ghandi will sit back and watch all you non-racists shoot each other if you want to.

On a seperate note, having more than a little Irish blood in my body (from both sides of the border), I am all for Irish independance if you really must know, (especially if it can be achieved without importing 20,000 rifles in a submarine), but that was never the point of my original rant. I think it is wrong to kill people for any reason. There are no mitigating circumstances.

Just a little background about me: I speak french, german and dutch (badly) and work for a translation company with an office in Dublin, so claims of racism and bigotry don't really apply - sorry. And I play Irish fiddle in the pub every monday and thursday. Not that that will change anyone's opinion of me.

Note: the only "anti-irish" comment I have made is "I hate bloody riverdance", a sentiment shared by most of my Irish friends, including Sinead from Comhaltas who started calling me "English" Jon in the first place. If that comment inflamed the thread then I'm sorry, an attempt at humour, that's all (obviously misplaced). To conclude, this is getting to be like flogging a dead horse and anyway I've got a gig to get to, so I'm going to let this one drop. Chat amongst yourselves.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:08 AM

English Jon,

I have read the entire thread, including your "bollocks" misinformed diatribes, intended to inflame the thread.

Which only serves to prove my point. You are behaving like a racist, bigoted troll, which clearly makes you feel better.

You are the one who owes the people interested in genuine, constructive dialoge participating in this thread, an apology.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:01 AM

I too am amazed at the bluff lasting for twenty minutes.

You see how fired up people can be by bollocks?

However, he did side with Germany, for you historians.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:55 AM

What a right load of old tat from EnglishJon. Casement for a start was not executed by firing squad - he was hung. His career before getting involved in Irish politics was somthing anyone might be proud of. In 1904 he made a notable report on the inhuman treatment of native workers in the Belgian Congo, (echoes of which are still reverberating today with the present enquiry by Belgium into the case of Lumumba). Promoted to consul-general in Rio he investigated the conditions in the Peruvian rubber plantations and his report exposing the cruelties practised by the European traders created a sensation in 1912. All this hardly evidence of a man who was in things "for the money." He could I am sure have made millions by going to the big companies and doing a little bit of blackmail - "Look fellows, pay me not to publish this report." As for his involvement in Ireland, he could I am sure have sat on his ass and don nothing as did thousands more. He had a lot to lose after all he was now Sir Roger. Perhaps it's a different Casement in a parallel universe EJ means. Wonder how it slipped by the scientists?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:53 AM

"It's people like you, with your bigotry and apathy, who keep terrorists in business, murdering innocent children."

Very astute Guest, now go back and read the whole thread.

You may wish to apologise for tarring me with an inapropriate brush. I don't suppose you will though. But that's okay, because you don't have an identity, and anyway, I forgive you.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:48 AM

Fine except that we don't live in one.

%40 of the population abstained from voting at the last election. effectively saying "I don't want any of you in a position of power", so now we have a government made up of members (on a constituency, rather than P.R. basis) elected by only 60 percent of the population. More people abstained than voted for any individual party, and no-one votes for the monarch.

Heseltine's biography mentions his proudest moment as being "the defeat of C.N.D.". Not sure that that "defeat" ever actually happened but you take my point. Politicians WILL NOT allow democracy to stand in their way.

"People all around the world live in environments where political violence is a very real, daily part of their lives. Your "non-violence is the way" PC cop-out doesn't go down well with people who can't escape the political violence in their lives. Lucky you who has been able to do so, apparently, with only a cheap watch."

Yes you're quite right. People trying to kill me isn't important at all and I shouldn't be so crass as to mention it in polite circles. Of course, I was nearly blown up in a country that's not at war with anyone so that's alright, and I should think myself lucky. >/sarcasm<

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:44 AM

English Jon,

What do you mean politicians think your opinion is insignficant? Why do you suppose they spend so much time and money with polling ordinary people to find out what they think?

I'd say the biggest impediment of the British government effectively devolving in NI is citizens like yourself who spend all your time badmouthing the supposedly "violent" Irish, and insisting there is nothing to be done.

It's people like you, with your bigotry and apathy, who keep terrorists in business, murdering innocent children.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:25 AM

The point of a democracy, English Jon, is that individuals working together make their governments change, do things differently, and yes--end wars, political violence, and terrorism and intimidation of one group by another.

It is done by banding together, and bringing pressure to bear. It has been done. It can be done. There is nothing useless about doing what you believe is right, and will help others. That is the daily price of citizenship in a democracy.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:21 AM

The point that all you can do is stamp your feet and shout at MPS. "My Government" has yet to do anything that I condone. I have yet to see a politician do anything that I've asked. My opinion as an individual is completely insignificant as far as politicians are concerned.

The problem is that ordinary people can't actually DO anything. The bastards never listen. And then to have ordinary people think that blowing each other sky high will solve "complicated political issues" is just plain bloody daft. You think I should get off my arse and be an Activist in order to de-comission the military, surely that's exactly what I'm doing? God, I've got more productive things to do with my time, but this issue is important to me, so I'll sit here and swear my little lungs off at anyone who trys to tell me that "might is right".

That point.

Oh yes, Casement was murdered by firing squad. The Government just gave the instruction. Nobody HAD to pull the trigger. Sure, the consequences of dis-obeying an officer were (and probably are) severe, but everyone's got a choice. Casement's Death is deplorable, as is the case of anybody who is deliberately killed. He should have gone to prison for a very long time, but there we go. Certainly no Martyr though. He was in it for the money, by all acounts.

I guess it was inevitable that this would upset somebody.

Oh well, Sorry, but it's just how I feel about it.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:02 AM

And what point might that be, English Jon?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:59 AM

And Maire misses the point entirely. Well done. 10 points.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: paddymac
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:57 AM

Well, EJ, I certainly hope you feel better having now vented. If memory serves, Sir Roger Casement was executed by the forces of the crown back in 1916, after having been victimized by one the the govt's more fanatical smear campaigns.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:56 AM

His posts.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:53 AM

What makes you think he doesn't?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:45 AM

English Jon

Actually, yours and some other individuals in this thread exhibit the tongue clucking hand wringers of which I speak.

It really doesn't matter what you think of politics. If you don't like the killing to the extent you claim, you should be doing everything in your power to stop it, including putting pressure on your government, yes--the British government, to put an end to it once and for all by implementing the Good Friday Agreement, making sure the integrity of the institutions is made safe, and honoring the Patten Report on police reform. Which your government called for, then rejected out of hand when it didn't like the results--the same way it is doing with the reports of the International Commission on Decommissioning. Reports come out showing the cooperation of the IRA, inspections of weapons dumps, etc. and the British government rejects it out of hand.

You don't get it both ways, English Jon. If you are as upset by the killing as you claim to be, get off yer lazy arse and do something about it. Just quit the "I'm so sensitive to violence when it happens to be in my face" shite.

People all around the world live in environments where political violence is a very real, daily part of their lives. Your "non-violence is the way" PC cop-out doesn't go down well with people who can't escape the political violence in their lives. Lucky you who has been able to do so, apparently, with only a cheap watch.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:35 AM

INoBu

Slightly confused, here?

"So please, don't give us the "tut tut tut, the Irish can't get along..." responce we have heard so often from England. "

When did I say that? Tell me please?

"ENGLAND promoted sectarian violence through loyalist terror squads."

ENGLAND is a piece of land which the English live on. I presume you mean the British government? A (supposedly) democratically elected body. I can tell you now, no-one I've ever voted for has ever held a seat.

"Loyalist" to whom? Ultimately H.M. the Queen, who is arguably GERMAN. (Sax-Coburg - i.e. Royal house of Saxony). Take note. Oh yes, I didn't vote for her either.

Britain, btw, as a political (including electoral) body includes Scotland, Wales, Channel Islands, Isle of Man etc. Also Northern Ireland, like it or not.

And I've certainly never sent any of my mates over to Ireland to blow things up, although while we're on that point, when I lived in London I narrowly missed being blown to smithereens on two occasions by incendiary devices that the I.R.A. later claimed responsibility for. To whit:

1. Suicide Bomber on New cross-Lewisham Bus (which pulled away before I got on)

2. Canary Wharf bomb. (I was within 1/2 a mile at the time.)

Either of these, had I not been running late, WOULD have killed me. Thank you Casio £2 watch.

Anyway, I'm not prepared to get stirred up about it. What bothers me is the complete lack of appreciation for the value of human life of these INDIVIDUALS. I give not a fuck for politics.

(Is it the assumption of the jury that "English Jon" is anti-Irish? Well I hate bloody riverdance if that counts.)

If you like, I can complain at length about Irish Aggressions towards the "English". E.G. Roger Casement's anti-ally policies during WW2 (Siding with the Germans (q.v.), supplying guns etc) and the bleeding "Banner Strand" lording him as a hero etc etc. Have I upset anyone? - O.K. So why not have another go at blowing me up? And that's why politics is bollocks.

Anyone can throw shit, but that doesn't make an excuse for murder. Case closed.

Sorry about this sudden bout of invective InoBu. I think the situation in Ireland is really very sad, and I can understand people getting upset about it. But I'm a lot more worried about people trying to kill each other. So you don't like being governed by westminster? guess what, neither do I. Maybe we should take a leaf out of Guy Fawkes's Book? More usefull than blowing up a hospital, surely...

Anyway, I don't want to make a political point in all of this. I'm not trying to belittle the "political" side of this issue, and please don't anybody think I'm a BNP member or anything, - I'm really not. I'm very concerned about the Moral issue at the core of it all. It amazes me that people can treat each other with so little respect, and there is obviously something fundamentally wrong with society if it proceeds to condone military activities. My point is that this sort of behaviour is inhuman and I don't think it should be given the dignity, if that's the right word, of political or social support of any kind.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 07:47 AM

English Jon:
On several other posts, we have gone into the real politic behind Ireland's most recent struggle. At the risk of repeating myself, for those who have heard this before... the people of Ireland had little to nothing to do with creating the present mire.
NATO felt a need to keep a military presence on an unalined island. As a result, evidence from several soruces, including MI6 defector, Frank Holroid, is that everytime the Irish people in the north of Ireland, attempted to heal divisions, ENGLAND promoted sectarian violence through loyalist terror squads.
England, at the behest of NATO, in order to maintain a platform to guard the Scapa Flow, could not let the northern community stablize to the point that the majority population, which under the age of 18 was both Catholic and Nationalist, would be able to remain in the country. The majority, through violence were forced out of the country. Now, after the fall of the Soviet Union, in fact the same year USSR came apart, and the same year that the IRish Republic set aside nuetrality to allow the US to refule on the way to bomb north Africa, suddunly began secret negotiations with the IRA.
Now they are stuck with finding an exit stratigy in an environment they have fostered for decades. So please, don't give us the "tut tut tut, the Irish can't get along..." responce we have heard so often from England. That is like blaming the death of 45,000 American's on Ho Chi Mehn. We had to sail a long way to get killed over there, and Enland had a choice to support democracy and peace, or maintain a NATO presence in Ireland. The Irish paid and are paying the price for the fact that English voters made several bad choices in that respect.
All the best English Jon,
Don't trust your government, none of us should.
Larry

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 05:47 AM

Good point, John.

"He's the universal soldier and he really is to blame
because without him all this killing can't go on..."

(Buffy StMarie)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 05:44 AM

And another thing. It's not down to governments, political factions, etc. The fault lies with the individual with his finger on the trigger.

"oh we're fighting for the cause" bollocks. As though an abstract can be responsible for death. Murdering bloody arseholes - regardless of "reason". That's all that can be said about any member of any militia.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 05:19 AM

What is wrong with people? Why does anyone ever point a gun at anyone else? Is there a basic human capacity for hate that overrides the survival instinct?

Why are people so dense that they can be persuaded to kill each other? It's not glorious and it's certainly not brave. It's just downright bloody stupid. You can't solve fuck all with a bullet, and let's face it, no problem is so big that anyone should have to.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 12:20 AM

Courage, my friend. I know that it is hard, but remain strong. You will win, because the world is seeing where the problem is. Would that it could be done without more martyrs, but that is not the way of it. Nár lagaí Dia do lámh.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Neil Comer
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 09:21 PM

Its been a long time since I wrote anything in this thread. I usually hope that it is about music, but, fair enough, other areas appear.

Another casualty has been added to the long line here in the 6 counties. Even though I depise the word, these Loyalist scum think that killing an innocent Catholic will somehow further their cause. Their cause is so flimsy that it makes the killing even more gross and senseless. To whom are they loyal? The Queen (I don't think so). Their hatred of Catholics is inbred and will be difficult to eradicate. I challenge anyone on this thread to contradict me because during the long, bloody history of this land, we have seen Loyalists terrorists and politicians trying to return us to Unionist Rule and Catholic subservience. It only takes one drugged up idiot with a cause on his mind and a politician behind him to ruin a family. One of the reasons for the murder given was that the murder was in revenge for the election of two Sinn Féin Council members in Antrim! Why should the Sinn Féin voters of Antrim not be represented. Obviously this scum don't know the meaning of Democracy and the Civil Rights they cry about every year when the want to parade.

I'll sign off before I become too bitter

Go dté sibh slán, a chairde gan chodladh ná ciall

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 07:30 PM

I don't think the term "British loyalist paramilitaries" is too accurate. Britain hasn't ever included any part of Ireland, and though they've friends in the BNP I'd doubt if many of the people involved in the loyalist paramilitaries come from Britain.

As for Rob Dale's question "Are the members of the IRA holding their weapons so that they can protect neighbourhoods from rioting mobs" - I'd say that is in fact the bottom line. I'd put it more that the IRA doesn't want to lay itself open to the accusation of having given up its ability to protect neighbourhoods from attack.

And there's the symbolism of not having surrendered and being undefeated and that. And I'm sure there are a lot of other factors too, including holding together and holding in check people with different views, some of whom might not go along with a decision to press ahead with decomissioning until a lot of things have changed at any rate.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 03:22 PM

Actually Graham, the British Unionist community CAN'T produce a similar list of victims to the one presented today in the Irish News, because there has not been republican terrorism of this level, targeting the Protestant community in the wake of the GFA.

That is precisely the point we keep trying to make here. The worst violence is now being perpetrated by British loyalist paramilitaries against the Catholic nationalist and republican communities. Very well documented, though you would never know it from media reports outside the north. This knowledge certainly isn't widespread on the British mainland. In the wake of the IRA ceasefires and the signing of the GFA, the overwhelming majority of the serious sectarian violence and killings have been done by British loyalist paramilitaries, supposedly on ceasefire, but operating under other names like Red Hand Defenders. In other words, exactly how we saw it happen yesterday in Co. Antrim. They really aren't even very concerned with trying to disguise that fact. They show up parading their colours in the Orange marches, at meetings at the Orange halls, at Drumcree, etc. That is why there is such fear in the republican community, and why Sinn Fein and the SDLP keep calling for movement on the policing issue. It is widely believed in the Irish nationalist and republican communities in the north that there is widespread collusion between British security forces, the RUC, and the British loyalist paramilitaries. When the perpetrators of the loyalist violence are never so much as arrested (which is the case in all the incidences we are talking about here), much less brought to justice, there isn't any confidence in the Irish nationalist and republican communities that people are safe, much less that justice will ever be meted out against the killers.

Hell, a loyalist mob outside a pub a few years back kicked and beat to death "one of their own" RUC officers for supposedly being in league with the pro-Agreement parties. Father of several kids, one of whom is disabled. The word sickening doesn't even begin to cover it.

There has been some limited Provo violence of course, both north and south. The Omagh bombing can't realistically be laid at the IRA's doorstep. All the British security forces agree, that bombing wasn't carried out by the Provos, but rather by the Real IRA, which splintered off from the Provos as an anti-Agreement para group. However, that act was resoundingly condemned by almost everyone in the republican community--something you rarely see in the unionist and loyalist communities.

Rather, you see responses like we did today, where David Trimble, highest ranking Unionist leader from the pro-Agreement camp, accuse the republican community of being guilty of Ciaran's killing. Not exactly parity of esteem for the suffering of the other community, now is it? And this from winner of the Nobel peace prize.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Grab
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 02:44 PM

JimmyC & Fiolar: A terrible list certainly. But citing one side's list of grievances is exactly the problem here - the unionists can equally produce their own list of victims since the GFA. Having a nice neat list of reasons to hate the other side is always convenient for maintaining that vendetta against the other side, whether the vendetta goes to shooting or whether it involves stonewalling political solutions suggested by each other.

There's mention of the "republican community" and "loyalist community" staying solid in the face of provocation. Don't forget that the ppl responsible for the violence are NOT the majority, they are the minority, and they're doing this as a desperate attempt to maintain their power through terror. These are the "no surrender" fanatics OF BOTH SIDES.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,RobDale
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 02:30 PM

McGrath Are the members of the IRA holding their weapons so that they can protect neighbourhoods from rioting mobs? I am really just asking why they want to keep their weapons if it is not for terrorism.

It seems from what you all have been saying, that people ARE trying to reject violent reactions and are trying not to give in to provocation. This approach may work, I pray that it does.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 02:10 PM

Hmm...áéóíú

This is how I do it with my software normally. I'll send now to see how it looks to the rest of youse.

T'anks for the advice!

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 01:31 PM

If your keyboards like mine, you push the button marked Alt Gr at the same time as a vowel, and up it comes: áéíóú. No doubt there are equivalent tricks for other accents, but I've never learnt them yet.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 01:28 PM

How to get the accents on the screen?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 01:27 PM

RobDale - the point about this kind of thing putting another barrier in the way of any decommissioning by the IRA is based in the history of the Troubles.

In 1969 the IRA had in effect got rid of its weapons, and when thing blew up with loyalist mobs burning communities out of their homes, they did so without facing armed resistance. The sequence was a break up of they IRA with the more militant faction re-arming and becoming the Provisional IRA.

If the IRA were to decomission in the middle of what is still a militarised and violent situation, it would probably destabilise everything. It would inevitably, given that history, be seen by many people as a betrayal. The fringe republicans organisations who had held on to the guns, and who oppose the agreement, would move in from the fringe to be seen as protectors against sectarian and mob violence.

If you are defusing a bomb, you have to move very carefully if you don't want it to explode.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 01:19 PM

Sorry,that 12.48 message was mine. First time, and all that blether. So how do you get the Irish accents on your screen?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:57 PM

To Jimmy C - what a catalogue of horror and how many have been brought to "justice"? RobDale: The IRA have held off (except for some lunatics who see themselves "betrayed" by the peace process)from retaliating in spite of all that has been said and done by the so called defenders and "no-surrender" fanatics of the loyalist factions. Imagine for one moment a fraction of the violence listed above taking place in say six English counties. The newspapers and the other media would have nothing else but banner headlines and blaring news items. I can almost say with with some truth that only a tiny number of the incidents listed have made it into the English press. But what the hell! Ireland is just Ireland. There was hardly a mention of it in the recent general election. Just think say if one of the right wing parties decided to kill a few Liberal Democrats in revenge for getting elected as it has been alleged that the "Red Hand Defenders" did because some Sinn Fein councillors got elected. "Red Hand Defenders"!!!. These creatures will go on television in a few years time and tell how bravely they fought in defence of Ulster as Johnny Adair and Michael Stone have done just recently on the BBC TV programme "End Game Ireland."

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:48 PM

RobDale,

Your remarks about the situation of IRA weapons shows a lack of understanding of the realities in the north, on the ground.

Like Big Mick said, the republican community has shown tremendous restraint and discipline on the ground in the north. The ceasefire has held longer than any ceasefire in any contemporary war-torn region. The republican and nationalist message that they will remain vigilant in their commitment to peace and reconciliation *is* getting through to the world, most particularly in Ireland, where Sinn Fein has made astounding electoral gains in the years since the first IRA ceasefire.

Change not only is coming to the north, it is already here. No amount of loyalist violence, or political failure on the part of pro-Agreement parties will be able to turn back the tide on the movement for peace and justice in Ireland. Not even cynicism from British and Irish citizens, who would rather cluck tongues and wring hands, than do the dirty work of actually reconciling with the neighbors with whom they have been at war.

There was no war between neighbors in Ciaran Cummings community, despite what you, and some other cynics here seem to be alluding to. Here is what a neighbor of the Cummings' family had to say in this morning's Irish News:

"Protestant neighbour Joe Jameson, who has lived beside the Cummings family for years, stared blankly towards their home repeating: "It is bloody disgusting, bloody disgusting." His children had played with Ciaran as a young lad and he recalled summer days in the back garden playing in the paddling pool. "We can't take it. He was a great lad. Happy-go-lucky. Always a smile on his face. The family is devastated."

Mr Jameson added: "We heard the screams coming from the house this morning and knew something really terrible had happened. We watched them grow up and all the neighbours, Protestant or Catholic, have always got on."

Ciaran's home is in a mixed Protestant/Catholic estate, which is often where political killings, intimidation, and harrassment take place. There are some who just can't stand the thought of people living together in peace.

But thankfully, and especially because of the changes which have occurred in recent years, those numbers are rapidly dwindling. They won't hold sway for much longer.

Unfortunately for this family and this community, it just didn't come soon enough. And in that, we all share their grief.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:31 PM

You can change history with a bullet (by not firing it) Time both sides learned to think about and love their children more than they hate each other. Only then may peace return to Ireland. I will not, and rarely do, post to these threads. I am British, and a loyalist, and have been shot at by both sides. My daughters Godfather is a Republican from Antrim, and he is considered my family. Murderers simply do not understand that more killing will simply mean another generation of hatered, murder, and torture. Sensless violence in a land where I have known such joy and friendship. Grief for the family and the people who have to live with this daily. Yours, Aye. Dave