Another Sectarian Killing

Subject: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 09:03 AM

So, another young life has been cut short in the killing fields of the North. A 19 year old Catholic was gunned down on a roundabout in Antrim as he was waiting for a lift to work. The killers were on a motor bike and the pillion passenger was the gunman. How brave. It warranted all of 6 lines on the teletext on my television. I wonder if the killers are the scum that Ronnie Flanagan mentioned recently. Is it any wonder that the IRA are reticent about the decomissioning of their weapons. Then you get individuals like Donaldson talking bollocks aboout IRA disarmament. The decomissioning body has visited the dumps several times and reported back, BUT, so far I have heard no reports on visits to the loyalist arms caches and little if any calls for the destruction of their guns. Will the Orange marches stop as a mark of respect for the murdered teenager? Will they hell.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jimmy C
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 09:18 AM

This item was gleaned from todays Irish News.

THE peace process has not been undermined by republican paramilitaries refusal to decommission weapons, Sinn Fein claimed last night.

Newry and Armagh assembly member Conor Murphy, responding to comments made by the constituency's MP Seamus Mallon, claimed that the deputy first minister hinted at the exclusion of Sinn Fein from the executive over the weapons issue.

Mr Murphy said that while IRA weapons remained in bunkers, which were open to inspection by international observers, loyalists had used pipe bombs and blast bombs on 95 separate attacks against Catholics.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 10:39 AM

...of course it's always someone else's fault

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 10:43 AM

It won't be the last sectarian killing, sadly.

But the important thing is not to let it be used to justify reprisals and tit-for-tat. There's been too much of that in Ireland - and look across to Israel and Palestine for an example of how it become institutionalised, and destroy any moves towards peace.

But it's true that people glibly talking about decommissioning as if it was easy need to appreciate this kind of thing, in the context of what has happened, and realize some of the obstacles to getting rid of the weapons.

If the IRA were to totally decomission tomorrow, you can guarantee that there would be an explosion of violence from both sides before very long. Sealed bunkers is as much as anyone can reasonably hope for at this time.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 10:54 AM

I am so tired of the bullshit about the IRA weapons decomissioning. Start with hundreds of years of broken promises, violence against Catholics that outnumbers violence by Republicans, repeated attempts like this by Orangemen determined to destroy the peace process because they know it represents the end of a status quo which works in their favor, and a Press that refuses to recognize that it is the Republican side that is holding the cease fire in the face of repeated provocation. Add in that there was never an agreement to decommission at a specific time by the IRA.

I would like to know the victims name, what his plans for life were, and did he have family. To just say that a 19 year old was killed doesn't do it for me. It depersonlizes it and makes it easy to shake ones head and move on.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:05 AM

Bloody Military make me sick.

Anyone with a gun is a fuckwit, o.k.

Disgusted EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Pinetop Slim
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:12 AM

Is it certain that it was a religio-political killing? Drive-bys of the sort described are far too common in the US; the motive is often drugs or drug money, though it is sometimes over an insulting word or even, in one infamous case in Boston, a pair of sneakers.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:13 AM

English Jon, Couldn`t agree more, I was in Derry when 14 unarmed civilians were shot dead by the paras, Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:17 AM

Thankfully the type of drive-by mooted by Pinetop Slim just doesn't happen in Northern Ireland. We've got more than enough problems, matey, with the other sort of drive-by shootings!

You probably meant to be helpful, but when people from Northern Ireland talk about a sectarian killing then, sadly, they usually know what they're talking about!

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:19 AM

I was in Dublin when the Irish sang songs about Warrington and then when bleating to anyone who would listen when the English got upset.

Of course it's always someone else's fault....

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:21 AM

It's a shame that this thread has taken a degree of sectarian twist . .

My first attempt to post this thought got lost in the wilds of the Internet . .

Fiolar, the end of your post resonated, when you used the word "respect". If people only respected one another, as fellow human being, then they couldn't do this sort of thing. Neither would the whole sad history which leads up to yet another grim statistic be possible. Yet that respect is supposed to be central to those religious beliefs which both sides profess to hold so dear.

OK, I've been involved in many a heated debate on Sectarian issues, on Mudcat and elsewhere. No doubt I'll continue to be so involved. But for this moment it's necessary to stand aside from those disagreements to agree on the futility and utter injustice of all the pain this, and every similar act, causes.

George

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:22 AM

Jim Cheydi, what is your point? What do you mean by "it's always someone elses fault"? I need to know what you are driving at.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:23 AM

from the ticker:

A dissident loyalist group - the Red Hand Defenders - has said it killed 19-year-old Catholic Ciarán Cummings in Antrim this morning.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jimmy C
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:25 AM

Big Mick. Here is the report taken from last nights Belfast Telegraph. It does not give his name, looks like he was just a kid on his way to work. If they want the IRA to give up their weapons they are going about it in the wrong way.

Catholic shot at point blank range By Darwin Templeton and Claire Regan A CATHOLIC teenager was shot dead in Antrim today as he waited for a lift to work, further heightening tensions in the run-up to Drumcree.

The victim - thought to be just 19 - was gunned down at the Greystone roundabout in Antrim at around 7.15am.

First reports said that two killers were waiting as he approached and he tried to run off, but tripped.

One gunman then stood over him and opened fire, before the pair fled on a motorbike towards the M2.

Detectives were examining a motorcycle found close to the Rathbeg roundabout.

Local people said the dead man had been threatened by loyalists, and RUC Assistant Chief Constable, Alan McQuillan, could not rule out a sectarian motive for the murder.

He said that the attack was carefully planned and appeared to have been the work of paramilitaries.

"Some group was involved, but which one we are not sure," he said.

Security chiefs are braced for an attack by militant loyalists as tensions rise over the Drumcree ban.

The LVF is known to have a cell in Antrim and dissident groups such as the Orange Volunteers have also been active in the area.

It is understood that the dead man lived on the nearby Greystone estate and was on his way to work at a factory in Newtownabbey.

Detectives believe that his killers may have targeted their victim over a period of time, building up a picture of his movements.

Sinn Fein spokesperson, Martin McManus, said that the murder had sent shockwaves through the community.

"It's an absolute disgrace. This was a young man on his way to work, who had never done anyone any harm and he has had his life taken away," he said.

PUP spokesperson, Ken Wilkinson, who also knew the family, condemned the attack.

"I spoke to his father this morning and he was distraught," he said.

"Some people will be sitting this morning thinking they are heroes, but they are anything but," he said.

Alliance Assemblyman, David Ford, said: "At this sensitive time it would seem that some are intent on dragging us all back to the darkest days of the Seventies.

"This type of behaviour accomplishes nothing and I would ask the public to assist the police in any way they can to help catch those responsible."

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:29 AM

Here's the article on BBBC news click here

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:33 AM

Jim Cheydi, Those people that chided you over Warrington were as sick as a para, George I live in the midst of it and I dont like to see it being brought up here, So Sin e Thats it Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:40 AM

What I was trying to say, Mick, was that 'both' sides in Ireland are forever blaming each other. The extremists have no desire for any kind of settlement. They all put forward proposals that they know full well will be rejected by the other side. I'm sure that the vast majority of people in the north (and everywhere else) just want the killing to end, but while this culture of constant blame exists, it just ain't going to happen.

JC

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:46 AM

OK, Jim, but the problem with the "both sides are to blame" argument is that while it is has some merit, it ignores the basic injustice that is at the root of the problem. It causes people to slip into the shrugged shoulders mode and then fall back on the perceptual reality that they live in as opposed to digging deep and finding solutions. In the meantime, another 19 year old kid is dead and another father is grieving.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: RichM
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 12:10 PM

Solving the "problem" requires the people who live there, to give up their resentments, their hatreds, their dislikes, and their perceptions that the other side is *evil*.

Not easy to do. It's easier to hate than to love, to resent than to like, and harder to go further than halfway toward the other.

And the Irish are particularly good at stoking the coals of past injustice.

Will things change? Not in this generation. Maybe the next, if the young get sick enough of their elders' antics.

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 12:17 PM

Rich, that is exactly what I mean by "fall back on the perceptual reality that they live in". But even your comment denies the basic tenet that is at the root of the entire conflict. This is the last vestige of British Colonialism, complicated by a group with a vested self interest in maintaining the status quo, further complicated and twisted by generational hatred towards the "papist" religion. Its roots are further tainted by economics that are changing.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 01:14 PM

Shit . .

Guys, we're back into the old argument . . Indeed, I nearly joined in . .

Please take it somewhere else, and leave those of us who wish to do so to remark, simply, of the tragedy of the loss of some mother's son.

Or are you incapable of recognising the humanity which joins us, regardless of the wedges which different perceptions drive between us.

George

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 01:24 PM

Ciarán - that's the name of my only son.

Big Mick was right - names bring it home to you.

The thing to remember is, whoever did this is hoping that there will be a reprisal killing, and a cycle of viiolence which will break the ceasefire being maintained by the paramilitaries on both sides. That's the way sectarian killings are used.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 10:09 PM

George, I respect you, but you are wrong, IMHO. We are not going anywhere again. We are discussing someone's son and the senseless horseshit of all this. But to deny the root, denies the chance for resolution.

Respectfully,

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Áine
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 10:40 PM

The first song below I wrote a fortnight ago. The second one I wrote during the war in Kosovo, and I direct that one to my fellow gaeilgeoirí -- is glas na cnoic i bhad uainn . . .

Le meas, Áine

Pray for Belfast Tonight

Pray for Belfast tonight, if you have a mind,
That the violence and hatred won't be paid in kind,
On both sides of the bridge, there are families in pain,
Pray for Belfast tonight, that it won't be same
In the streets lie the tatters of orange and green,
When covered in red, no difference is seen,
Muddy banners left soaking in grief and the loss,
Of a life that's been cut short, not deemed worth a toss.

Pray for Belfast tonight, if you have a heart,
Understanding of differences, if just for a start,
Let the words of the patriot dead fade away,
And new words of peace grow inside us to stay.

Pray for mothers, daughters, and babes in the womb,
That they won't have to visit a cold, lonely tomb,
Whether on left or right, the task lies ahead,
To extinguish the fires on which hatred is fed,
Erasing the lines that divide and diverge,
Listening to each other's funeral dirge,
The echoes of pipes or drums sound the same,
Over rivers of blood, 'cross mountains of shame.

Pray for Belfast tonight, if you have a heart,
Understanding of differences, if just for a start,
Let the words of the patriot dead fade away,
And new words of peace grow inside us to stay.

The fire and the water cannot come to terms,
When the lessons of death refused to be learned,
And the roads of the past are constantly tread,
O'er the cold and uncaring bones of the dead,
This is now, that was then, let's come out of the past,
And know that our only chance is fading fast,
For there's naught to be won, only peace to be found,
And to green and to orange, this is holy ground.

Pray for Belfast tonight, if you have a heart,
Understanding of differences, if just for a start,
Let the words of the patriot dead fade away,
And new words of peace grow inside us to stay.



Ar Bhóthar i gCósovó

Slán leat, slán agat a stór
Caithfidh mise le gabháil ar aghaidh
Tusa i do choladh go deo
Mise 'mo dheacaireacht 'óró

Slán leat, slán agat a chroí
Béarfaidh mise d'aghaidh mar bheo
Tusa i do leachtán chomh fuar
'S mé ar mo chosán chomh corrach

Ar bhóthairín i gCósovó
Chaill mé mo shaol
I sneachta fluacht is fuar
Críocnadh m'áthas ar fad

Slán leat, slán agat m'anamsa
Bíodh 'fhios agat go mbeidh do scéal
I mo lámh' 's mo bhéal go dtí
An domhan ar fad bí 'd'aithne

Slán leat, slán agat a leanbhán
Coladh sámh is suaimhneach a h-óbó
Ná bí buartha mar bheidh mé
Ar ais uair inteacht a h-óró

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:57 PM

Wonderful, Áine. Go raibh míle maith agat.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: paddymac
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:27 AM

Jimmy C - the 95 incidents you mention are just since the first of this year. They've gone on at a similar pace against the catholic and nationaist communities ever since the GFA on April 10, 1998. In all that time, and in view of all that deliberate incitement, the IRA has not responded in kind once. There have been about three incidents in Ireland and three or four in England by dissident republican groups, but the IRA has sat with a heavy hand on its members and honored every commitment it has made.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jimmy C
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 09:04 AM

Paddymac, you are correct, Here is a partial listing of some of the more serious events.

ANTRIM has seen a number of deaths linked to loyalist paramilitaries in recent years.

June 1994: taxi-driver Gerald Brady, is shot by the UVF after picking up a bogus fare in Antrim. His body was found at the Sunnylands estate in Carrickfergus. UVF claims that Mr Brady was a republican were rubbished by the RUC and his family.

August 1994: The body of 48-year-old Protestant David Thompson – married with six children to a Catholic woman – is discovered on the Gallyhill Lane outside Antrim town. The UVF claim he was shot for passing information to the IRA. The claims were dismissed by the IRA and the victim's family.

May 1997: Catholic civil servant Sean Brown (61) is shot by the LVF and his body left beside his burning car in Randalstown, close to Antrim. He had been abducted earlier at Bellaghy, in Co Derry while locking the Wolfe Tone GAA club.

April 1998: Ciaran Heffron, a 22-year-old Catholic student was shot dead by the LVF after a night out with friends in the Co Antrim village of Crumlin. Mr Heffron was murdered just hours after a loyalist rally in nearby Antrim town.

January 2000: The battered body of 32-year-old Denver Smith is found in the Stiles Estate in Antrim in the early hours of new year's day. The married man who had three daughters was a member of the PUP and the killing was blamed on loyalist criminal elements in the town.

Deaths associated with violence surrounding Drumcree:

July 1996: Catholic taxi driver Michael McGoldrick is murdered during the standoff. The killing is blamed on renegade UVF members who later went on with loyalist leader Billy Wright to form the LVF.

July 1996: Dermot McShane: Killed in Derry by a British army personnel carrier in disturbances surrounding the protest.

April 1997: Catholic Robert Hamill (25) dies after a sectarian attack in Portadown.

July 1997: Catholic teenager Bernadette Martin (18) is shot dead by the LVF at Aghalee, Co Antrim.

April 1998: Catholic council worker Adrian Lamph (29) is gunned down by the LVF in Portadown.

July 1998: Brothers Richard (11), Mark (10) and nine-year-old Jason Quinn are killed in a loyalist arson attack on their home in Ballymoney.

October 1998: RUC officer Frankie O'Reilly dies after being injured by a loyalist blast bomb thrown by loyalists during Drumcree riots in Portadown.

March 1999: Solicitor Rosemary Nelson is killed in a loyalist car bomb outside her Lurgan home.

June 1999: Elizabeth O'Neill (59), a Protestant, dies after lifting a loyalist pipe bomb at the home she shared with her Catholic husband in the loyalist Corcrain estate in Portadown.

July 2001 : Ciaran Cummings shot a few nights ago while waiting for a lift to work.

Many unionists/loyalists feel that their way of life is fading away (notice I said loyalist and not protestants) and they fear the future in a a united country. The gains made by Sinn Fein in the recent eletions are adding to these fears. Of course their fears are totally unfounded, we just have to get them to believe this.
They also have to realize that these kind of happenings are not helping to take the gun out of politics. The Provo I.R.A. have to be commemded for taking their weapons out of circulation and open to international inspection.
I believe that the recent killing in Antrim will disgust many protestants as well as catholics and will definitely dilute any suport the perpetrators may have in the community.
Lets hope cooler heards prevail in the run up to Drumcree and the marching season.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 11:15 AM

There is too much cynicism about the "they will never change" in regards to the north.

Things have changed tremendously in the north since the first IRA ceasefire in 1994. The difference, to those on the ground in the north, is like night and day.

As someone said, the sectarian killings of civilians by loyalists is a tactic used, particularly during the run up to marching season, to provoke retaliatory violence from the republican community. One of the worst killings (in terms of potential for republiclan retaliation) was the murder of the three Quinn brothers in the run up to Drumcree a few years back. This does hold at least that potential for retaliation from republicans this year, because of the clearly orchestrated British loyalist (in terms of the paras) and unionist (in terms of the politicos) campaigns to see the GFA wrecked during this year's marching season.

I just read the most disgusting report in the Irish Times. obel prize winning First Minister David Trimble, claims the murder of the Antrim teenager was the work of republican drug lords.

It really is inconceivable not to see this, in conjunction with the shenanigans going on behind closed doors with the Parades Commission, the Northern Ireland office and the RUC, as being orchestrated pressure being brought to bear on Sinn Fein for their recent electoral victories.

On the political front, unionist politicians force the crisis with the Assembly. The SDLP, terrified of losing its majority status as the north's largest nationalist political party (there is that status quo thing again), is the first to call for Sinn Fein to be excluded from the Assembly, despite a considerable mandate from the voters, and considerable movement (as was pointed out by Vincent Browne in yesterday's Irish Times editorial) on decommissioning issues with the IRA since the signing of the GFA.

I'd say, there certainly is something orchestrated going on both in the north and the south to cripple Sinn Fein's gains with voters. Don't underestimate how angry the Irish government still is over the whole Nice fiasco, and Sinn Fein's participation in the NO campaign.

I'd say, this all coming to a head at once, to push the IRA over the brink, and retaliate by breaking the ceasefire. It is the only hope for the Irish and British government, as well as the pro-Agreement parties in the north, to destabilize and undermine Sinn Fein's stunning victories and growth in political party clout north and south.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 11:26 AM

I agree with Maire and Big Mick. And if the Parades Commission overturns the Garvaghy Road decision today or tomorrow, I fear the north will explode, because of this murder.

Hopefully, the republican community can remain as disciplined in the face of this crisis as they did with the Quinn boys. Its important for the community to make a concerted effort to eep the lads (those who get involved in the peace line provocations, vandalism, etcx) off the streets. The last thing that republicans need at this point is a week of rioting.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GeorgeH
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 11:34 AM

Mick, I respect your intention but not your fulfillment of it - essentially as soon as you start addressing the background of the event you move from the personal to the political. I'd like to take issue with what you write (because I find it simplistic, one-sided and unhelpful in the current situation, although I certainly accept that England/Britain has the greater "burden of fault" in that troubled island.

As I say, I think that discussion is inappropriate in this thread. So I'm out of this one, totally. I'll cross swords with you at another opportunity.

G.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 11:48 AM

There is never justification for ending a young life. Particulary in this cowardly manner.

These people should be brought to justice. But with the forces of law and order being what they are I doubt if they will even be caught.

I guess we are as sure as we can be that this is a sectarian killing but let us not forget that first and foremost this young lad was a person. Catholic, protestant, loyalist, catholic, black, white, orange or green. It doesn't matter.

While people see these arbitrary divisions it will give them the excuse they need to take more lives.

Peace

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 11:57 AM

"It is the only hope for the Irish and British government, as well as the pro-Agreement parties in the north, to destabilize and undermine Sinn Fein.."(GUEST,Maire)

Is here a typo there, seeing as Sinn Fein are a pro-agreement party?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:03 PM

Hi George, and others:
There has in deed been a change in the way we discuss these things in this forum, and I think we do so with much more respect than we did a few years ago, and that's good. George, you and I and Richard Brige and Fionn and a number of us were part of that.
However, unfortunately, as I wrote in my song, "Pig in the Middle" the personal and political are intertwined, when a human is killed by reason of her or his identity as a symbol, not a human. Ciaran was killed not because he was Ciaran, but as a nameless Catholic and a symbol of nationalist and civil rights desires by his community. He was killed, likely, in spite of his personal oppions as likely as by reason of his oppions.
Therefore we discuss the underlying situation with objectified Ciaran.
I'm sure we all join you in the great sadness, more than that, there isn't a human word for the emptyness of such constant loss, and thank you for that degree of care.
But we have to also cure the political situation which leads to Ciaran becomeing objectified, and killed. - The body is burried with the man and the symbols live on.
Keep talking and beg our governments for a peace and concilliation process... no demand it.
ALl the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:09 PM

George, there is no need to "cross swords" on the issue. One cannot discuss a killing without discussing the issues that spawned it and the politics that nurtured it. Having that discussion does not exclude us from doing so within the context of sadness at a human being dieing. In fact it is a natural by product of the discussion. With regard to my being "simplistic", let me tell you that there is a very good reason for that. I don't know your background in things political, or in the art and practice of war. But I can tell you that mine is extensive, and that I have more practical experience in its exercise and more knowledge of its consequences than the average person. And I have usually found that the person who tries to make the cause of conflict, as well as what is needed for resolution, a more complicated matter than it is usually has something to gain by making it so. Clearly there is a group of parties under one banner that have an interest in maintaining status quo. They have been enjoying gerrymandered benefits for a long time. And now there are parties to the solution who see, in the application of the agreement, a political loss for themselves. Hence they try to torpedo it.

I would, with all due respect and from afar, urge the nationalist community to stay the course and not break discipline. Even in the face of this horrid provocation. They are winning the battle with economic might through the purchase of properties (go through Keady sometime), with their Information technologies skills, and with their committment to employ long term strategies. An eye for an eye is a losing strategy at this time. But letting the thugs show the world what they are really about, and conversely letting the world see that the Nationalists are committed to peaceful resolution will win the day. And it will occur in the not to distant future.

In the meantime, let us mourn the death of young Ciarán Cummings, and the rest who have died as a result of senseless shite like this. God be good to him.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:13 PM

No typo--Sinn Fein is, of course, a pro-Agreement party. The only pro-Agreement party all the other pro-Agreement parties seem hell-bent on getting rid of, no matter what.

As to Larry's comments (and again, to add my support to Big Mick), we cannot remove the political contexts of political killings from the personal.

This was a political killing, not a random act of criminal violence. The party claiming responsiblity (Red Hand Defenders, who are a loose collection of the supposedly on ceasefire loyalist paras) said as much. They are also the same party which claimed responsiblity for the killing of Garvaghy Road Residents Coalition Solicitor Rosemary Nelson.

The lead article in today's Irish News states:

"A caller to the Irish News yesterday, claiming to represent the Red Hand Defenders said the loyalist dissidents had shot Mr Cummings in "retaliation" for the election of two Sinn Fein councillors in Antrim."

It may not be "peace and reconciliation PC" to talk about the political killings in context, one thing is for certain: if we can't talk about political killings in the context they occur, how are we ever to solve the problem of political killings?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:13 PM

Fiolar, I feel for that boy's family and for the families of all of the victims of sectarian violence. But I am puzzled by this statement.

"Is it any wonder that the IRA are reticent about the decomissioning of their weapons."

Are you in any way implying that the IRA holding weapons in any way mitigates or encourages the prevention of such acts? Or are you saying that they should keep their weapons so that they can more efficiently exact revenge?

Revenge is wrong, terrorism is wrong. There are other, better ways.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:31 PM

You can change history with a bullet (by not firing it) Time both sides learned to think about and love their children more than they hate each other. Only then may peace return to Ireland. I will not, and rarely do, post to these threads. I am British, and a loyalist, and have been shot at by both sides. My daughters Godfather is a Republican from Antrim, and he is considered my family. Murderers simply do not understand that more killing will simply mean another generation of hatered, murder, and torture. Sensless violence in a land where I have known such joy and friendship. Grief for the family and the people who have to live with this daily. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:48 PM

RobDale,

Your remarks about the situation of IRA weapons shows a lack of understanding of the realities in the north, on the ground.

Like Big Mick said, the republican community has shown tremendous restraint and discipline on the ground in the north. The ceasefire has held longer than any ceasefire in any contemporary war-torn region. The republican and nationalist message that they will remain vigilant in their commitment to peace and reconciliation *is* getting through to the world, most particularly in Ireland, where Sinn Fein has made astounding electoral gains in the years since the first IRA ceasefire.

Change not only is coming to the north, it is already here. No amount of loyalist violence, or political failure on the part of pro-Agreement parties will be able to turn back the tide on the movement for peace and justice in Ireland. Not even cynicism from British and Irish citizens, who would rather cluck tongues and wring hands, than do the dirty work of actually reconciling with the neighbors with whom they have been at war.

There was no war between neighbors in Ciaran Cummings community, despite what you, and some other cynics here seem to be alluding to. Here is what a neighbor of the Cummings' family had to say in this morning's Irish News:

"Protestant neighbour Joe Jameson, who has lived beside the Cummings family for years, stared blankly towards their home repeating: "It is bloody disgusting, bloody disgusting." His children had played with Ciaran as a young lad and he recalled summer days in the back garden playing in the paddling pool. "We can't take it. He was a great lad. Happy-go-lucky. Always a smile on his face. The family is devastated."

Mr Jameson added: "We heard the screams coming from the house this morning and knew something really terrible had happened. We watched them grow up and all the neighbours, Protestant or Catholic, have always got on."

Ciaran's home is in a mixed Protestant/Catholic estate, which is often where political killings, intimidation, and harrassment take place. There are some who just can't stand the thought of people living together in peace.

But thankfully, and especially because of the changes which have occurred in recent years, those numbers are rapidly dwindling. They won't hold sway for much longer.

Unfortunately for this family and this community, it just didn't come soon enough. And in that, we all share their grief.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 12:57 PM

To Jimmy C - what a catalogue of horror and how many have been brought to "justice"? RobDale: The IRA have held off (except for some lunatics who see themselves "betrayed" by the peace process)from retaliating in spite of all that has been said and done by the so called defenders and "no-surrender" fanatics of the loyalist factions. Imagine for one moment a fraction of the violence listed above taking place in say six English counties. The newspapers and the other media would have nothing else but banner headlines and blaring news items. I can almost say with with some truth that only a tiny number of the incidents listed have made it into the English press. But what the hell! Ireland is just Ireland. There was hardly a mention of it in the recent general election. Just think say if one of the right wing parties decided to kill a few Liberal Democrats in revenge for getting elected as it has been alleged that the "Red Hand Defenders" did because some Sinn Fein councillors got elected. "Red Hand Defenders"!!!. These creatures will go on television in a few years time and tell how bravely they fought in defence of Ulster as Johnny Adair and Michael Stone have done just recently on the BBC TV programme "End Game Ireland."

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 01:19 PM

Sorry,that 12.48 message was mine. First time, and all that blether. So how do you get the Irish accents on your screen?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 01:27 PM

RobDale - the point about this kind of thing putting another barrier in the way of any decommissioning by the IRA is based in the history of the Troubles.

In 1969 the IRA had in effect got rid of its weapons, and when thing blew up with loyalist mobs burning communities out of their homes, they did so without facing armed resistance. The sequence was a break up of they IRA with the more militant faction re-arming and becoming the Provisional IRA.

If the IRA were to decomission in the middle of what is still a militarised and violent situation, it would probably destabilise everything. It would inevitably, given that history, be seen by many people as a betrayal. The fringe republicans organisations who had held on to the guns, and who oppose the agreement, would move in from the fringe to be seen as protectors against sectarian and mob violence.

If you are defusing a bomb, you have to move very carefully if you don't want it to explode.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 01:28 PM

How to get the accents on the screen?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 01:31 PM

If your keyboards like mine, you push the button marked Alt Gr at the same time as a vowel, and up it comes: áéíóú. No doubt there are equivalent tricks for other accents, but I've never learnt them yet.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 02:10 PM

Hmm...áéóíú

This is how I do it with my software normally. I'll send now to see how it looks to the rest of youse.

T'anks for the advice!

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,RobDale
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 02:30 PM

McGrath Are the members of the IRA holding their weapons so that they can protect neighbourhoods from rioting mobs? I am really just asking why they want to keep their weapons if it is not for terrorism.

It seems from what you all have been saying, that people ARE trying to reject violent reactions and are trying not to give in to provocation. This approach may work, I pray that it does.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Grab
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 02:44 PM

JimmyC & Fiolar: A terrible list certainly. But citing one side's list of grievances is exactly the problem here - the unionists can equally produce their own list of victims since the GFA. Having a nice neat list of reasons to hate the other side is always convenient for maintaining that vendetta against the other side, whether the vendetta goes to shooting or whether it involves stonewalling political solutions suggested by each other.

There's mention of the "republican community" and "loyalist community" staying solid in the face of provocation. Don't forget that the ppl responsible for the violence are NOT the majority, they are the minority, and they're doing this as a desperate attempt to maintain their power through terror. These are the "no surrender" fanatics OF BOTH SIDES.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 03:22 PM

Actually Graham, the British Unionist community CAN'T produce a similar list of victims to the one presented today in the Irish News, because there has not been republican terrorism of this level, targeting the Protestant community in the wake of the GFA.

That is precisely the point we keep trying to make here. The worst violence is now being perpetrated by British loyalist paramilitaries against the Catholic nationalist and republican communities. Very well documented, though you would never know it from media reports outside the north. This knowledge certainly isn't widespread on the British mainland. In the wake of the IRA ceasefires and the signing of the GFA, the overwhelming majority of the serious sectarian violence and killings have been done by British loyalist paramilitaries, supposedly on ceasefire, but operating under other names like Red Hand Defenders. In other words, exactly how we saw it happen yesterday in Co. Antrim. They really aren't even very concerned with trying to disguise that fact. They show up parading their colours in the Orange marches, at meetings at the Orange halls, at Drumcree, etc. That is why there is such fear in the republican community, and why Sinn Fein and the SDLP keep calling for movement on the policing issue. It is widely believed in the Irish nationalist and republican communities in the north that there is widespread collusion between British security forces, the RUC, and the British loyalist paramilitaries. When the perpetrators of the loyalist violence are never so much as arrested (which is the case in all the incidences we are talking about here), much less brought to justice, there isn't any confidence in the Irish nationalist and republican communities that people are safe, much less that justice will ever be meted out against the killers.

Hell, a loyalist mob outside a pub a few years back kicked and beat to death "one of their own" RUC officers for supposedly being in league with the pro-Agreement parties. Father of several kids, one of whom is disabled. The word sickening doesn't even begin to cover it.

There has been some limited Provo violence of course, both north and south. The Omagh bombing can't realistically be laid at the IRA's doorstep. All the British security forces agree, that bombing wasn't carried out by the Provos, but rather by the Real IRA, which splintered off from the Provos as an anti-Agreement para group. However, that act was resoundingly condemned by almost everyone in the republican community--something you rarely see in the unionist and loyalist communities.

Rather, you see responses like we did today, where David Trimble, highest ranking Unionist leader from the pro-Agreement camp, accuse the republican community of being guilty of Ciaran's killing. Not exactly parity of esteem for the suffering of the other community, now is it? And this from winner of the Nobel peace prize.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 07:30 PM

I don't think the term "British loyalist paramilitaries" is too accurate. Britain hasn't ever included any part of Ireland, and though they've friends in the BNP I'd doubt if many of the people involved in the loyalist paramilitaries come from Britain.

As for Rob Dale's question "Are the members of the IRA holding their weapons so that they can protect neighbourhoods from rioting mobs" - I'd say that is in fact the bottom line. I'd put it more that the IRA doesn't want to lay itself open to the accusation of having given up its ability to protect neighbourhoods from attack.

And there's the symbolism of not having surrendered and being undefeated and that. And I'm sure there are a lot of other factors too, including holding together and holding in check people with different views, some of whom might not go along with a decision to press ahead with decomissioning until a lot of things have changed at any rate.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Neil Comer
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 09:21 PM

Its been a long time since I wrote anything in this thread. I usually hope that it is about music, but, fair enough, other areas appear.

Another casualty has been added to the long line here in the 6 counties. Even though I depise the word, these Loyalist scum think that killing an innocent Catholic will somehow further their cause. Their cause is so flimsy that it makes the killing even more gross and senseless. To whom are they loyal? The Queen (I don't think so). Their hatred of Catholics is inbred and will be difficult to eradicate. I challenge anyone on this thread to contradict me because during the long, bloody history of this land, we have seen Loyalists terrorists and politicians trying to return us to Unionist Rule and Catholic subservience. It only takes one drugged up idiot with a cause on his mind and a politician behind him to ruin a family. One of the reasons for the murder given was that the murder was in revenge for the election of two Sinn Féin Council members in Antrim! Why should the Sinn Féin voters of Antrim not be represented. Obviously this scum don't know the meaning of Democracy and the Civil Rights they cry about every year when the want to parade.

I'll sign off before I become too bitter

Go dté sibh slán, a chairde gan chodladh ná ciall

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 12:20 AM

Courage, my friend. I know that it is hard, but remain strong. You will win, because the world is seeing where the problem is. Would that it could be done without more martyrs, but that is not the way of it. Nár lagaí Dia do lámh.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 05:19 AM

What is wrong with people? Why does anyone ever point a gun at anyone else? Is there a basic human capacity for hate that overrides the survival instinct?

Why are people so dense that they can be persuaded to kill each other? It's not glorious and it's certainly not brave. It's just downright bloody stupid. You can't solve fuck all with a bullet, and let's face it, no problem is so big that anyone should have to.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 05:44 AM

And another thing. It's not down to governments, political factions, etc. The fault lies with the individual with his finger on the trigger.

"oh we're fighting for the cause" bollocks. As though an abstract can be responsible for death. Murdering bloody arseholes - regardless of "reason". That's all that can be said about any member of any militia.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 05:47 AM

Good point, John.

"He's the universal soldier and he really is to blame
because without him all this killing can't go on..."

(Buffy StMarie)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 07:47 AM

English Jon:
On several other posts, we have gone into the real politic behind Ireland's most recent struggle. At the risk of repeating myself, for those who have heard this before... the people of Ireland had little to nothing to do with creating the present mire.
NATO felt a need to keep a military presence on an unalined island. As a result, evidence from several soruces, including MI6 defector, Frank Holroid, is that everytime the Irish people in the north of Ireland, attempted to heal divisions, ENGLAND promoted sectarian violence through loyalist terror squads.
England, at the behest of NATO, in order to maintain a platform to guard the Scapa Flow, could not let the northern community stablize to the point that the majority population, which under the age of 18 was both Catholic and Nationalist, would be able to remain in the country. The majority, through violence were forced out of the country. Now, after the fall of the Soviet Union, in fact the same year USSR came apart, and the same year that the IRish Republic set aside nuetrality to allow the US to refule on the way to bomb north Africa, suddunly began secret negotiations with the IRA.
Now they are stuck with finding an exit stratigy in an environment they have fostered for decades. So please, don't give us the "tut tut tut, the Irish can't get along..." responce we have heard so often from England. That is like blaming the death of 45,000 American's on Ho Chi Mehn. We had to sail a long way to get killed over there, and Enland had a choice to support democracy and peace, or maintain a NATO presence in Ireland. The Irish paid and are paying the price for the fact that English voters made several bad choices in that respect.
All the best English Jon,
Don't trust your government, none of us should.
Larry

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:35 AM

INoBu

Slightly confused, here?

"So please, don't give us the "tut tut tut, the Irish can't get along..." responce we have heard so often from England. "

When did I say that? Tell me please?

"ENGLAND promoted sectarian violence through loyalist terror squads."

ENGLAND is a piece of land which the English live on. I presume you mean the British government? A (supposedly) democratically elected body. I can tell you now, no-one I've ever voted for has ever held a seat.

"Loyalist" to whom? Ultimately H.M. the Queen, who is arguably GERMAN. (Sax-Coburg - i.e. Royal house of Saxony). Take note. Oh yes, I didn't vote for her either.

Britain, btw, as a political (including electoral) body includes Scotland, Wales, Channel Islands, Isle of Man etc. Also Northern Ireland, like it or not.

And I've certainly never sent any of my mates over to Ireland to blow things up, although while we're on that point, when I lived in London I narrowly missed being blown to smithereens on two occasions by incendiary devices that the I.R.A. later claimed responsibility for. To whit:

1. Suicide Bomber on New cross-Lewisham Bus (which pulled away before I got on)

2. Canary Wharf bomb. (I was within 1/2 a mile at the time.)

Either of these, had I not been running late, WOULD have killed me. Thank you Casio £2 watch.

Anyway, I'm not prepared to get stirred up about it. What bothers me is the complete lack of appreciation for the value of human life of these INDIVIDUALS. I give not a fuck for politics.

(Is it the assumption of the jury that "English Jon" is anti-Irish? Well I hate bloody riverdance if that counts.)

If you like, I can complain at length about Irish Aggressions towards the "English". E.G. Roger Casement's anti-ally policies during WW2 (Siding with the Germans (q.v.), supplying guns etc) and the bleeding "Banner Strand" lording him as a hero etc etc. Have I upset anyone? - O.K. So why not have another go at blowing me up? And that's why politics is bollocks.

Anyone can throw shit, but that doesn't make an excuse for murder. Case closed.

Sorry about this sudden bout of invective InoBu. I think the situation in Ireland is really very sad, and I can understand people getting upset about it. But I'm a lot more worried about people trying to kill each other. So you don't like being governed by westminster? guess what, neither do I. Maybe we should take a leaf out of Guy Fawkes's Book? More usefull than blowing up a hospital, surely...

Anyway, I don't want to make a political point in all of this. I'm not trying to belittle the "political" side of this issue, and please don't anybody think I'm a BNP member or anything, - I'm really not. I'm very concerned about the Moral issue at the core of it all. It amazes me that people can treat each other with so little respect, and there is obviously something fundamentally wrong with society if it proceeds to condone military activities. My point is that this sort of behaviour is inhuman and I don't think it should be given the dignity, if that's the right word, of political or social support of any kind.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:45 AM

English Jon

Actually, yours and some other individuals in this thread exhibit the tongue clucking hand wringers of which I speak.

It really doesn't matter what you think of politics. If you don't like the killing to the extent you claim, you should be doing everything in your power to stop it, including putting pressure on your government, yes--the British government, to put an end to it once and for all by implementing the Good Friday Agreement, making sure the integrity of the institutions is made safe, and honoring the Patten Report on police reform. Which your government called for, then rejected out of hand when it didn't like the results--the same way it is doing with the reports of the International Commission on Decommissioning. Reports come out showing the cooperation of the IRA, inspections of weapons dumps, etc. and the British government rejects it out of hand.

You don't get it both ways, English Jon. If you are as upset by the killing as you claim to be, get off yer lazy arse and do something about it. Just quit the "I'm so sensitive to violence when it happens to be in my face" shite.

People all around the world live in environments where political violence is a very real, daily part of their lives. Your "non-violence is the way" PC cop-out doesn't go down well with people who can't escape the political violence in their lives. Lucky you who has been able to do so, apparently, with only a cheap watch.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jim Cheydi
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:53 AM

What makes you think he doesn't?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:56 AM

His posts.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: paddymac
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:57 AM

Well, EJ, I certainly hope you feel better having now vented. If memory serves, Sir Roger Casement was executed by the forces of the crown back in 1916, after having been victimized by one the the govt's more fanatical smear campaigns.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:59 AM

And Maire misses the point entirely. Well done. 10 points.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:02 AM

And what point might that be, English Jon?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:21 AM

The point that all you can do is stamp your feet and shout at MPS. "My Government" has yet to do anything that I condone. I have yet to see a politician do anything that I've asked. My opinion as an individual is completely insignificant as far as politicians are concerned.

The problem is that ordinary people can't actually DO anything. The bastards never listen. And then to have ordinary people think that blowing each other sky high will solve "complicated political issues" is just plain bloody daft. You think I should get off my arse and be an Activist in order to de-comission the military, surely that's exactly what I'm doing? God, I've got more productive things to do with my time, but this issue is important to me, so I'll sit here and swear my little lungs off at anyone who trys to tell me that "might is right".

That point.

Oh yes, Casement was murdered by firing squad. The Government just gave the instruction. Nobody HAD to pull the trigger. Sure, the consequences of dis-obeying an officer were (and probably are) severe, but everyone's got a choice. Casement's Death is deplorable, as is the case of anybody who is deliberately killed. He should have gone to prison for a very long time, but there we go. Certainly no Martyr though. He was in it for the money, by all acounts.

I guess it was inevitable that this would upset somebody.

Oh well, Sorry, but it's just how I feel about it.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:25 AM

The point of a democracy, English Jon, is that individuals working together make their governments change, do things differently, and yes--end wars, political violence, and terrorism and intimidation of one group by another.

It is done by banding together, and bringing pressure to bear. It has been done. It can be done. There is nothing useless about doing what you believe is right, and will help others. That is the daily price of citizenship in a democracy.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:44 AM

English Jon,

What do you mean politicians think your opinion is insignficant? Why do you suppose they spend so much time and money with polling ordinary people to find out what they think?

I'd say the biggest impediment of the British government effectively devolving in NI is citizens like yourself who spend all your time badmouthing the supposedly "violent" Irish, and insisting there is nothing to be done.

It's people like you, with your bigotry and apathy, who keep terrorists in business, murdering innocent children.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:48 AM

Fine except that we don't live in one.

%40 of the population abstained from voting at the last election. effectively saying "I don't want any of you in a position of power", so now we have a government made up of members (on a constituency, rather than P.R. basis) elected by only 60 percent of the population. More people abstained than voted for any individual party, and no-one votes for the monarch.

Heseltine's biography mentions his proudest moment as being "the defeat of C.N.D.". Not sure that that "defeat" ever actually happened but you take my point. Politicians WILL NOT allow democracy to stand in their way.

"People all around the world live in environments where political violence is a very real, daily part of their lives. Your "non-violence is the way" PC cop-out doesn't go down well with people who can't escape the political violence in their lives. Lucky you who has been able to do so, apparently, with only a cheap watch."

Yes you're quite right. People trying to kill me isn't important at all and I shouldn't be so crass as to mention it in polite circles. Of course, I was nearly blown up in a country that's not at war with anyone so that's alright, and I should think myself lucky. >/sarcasm<

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:53 AM

"It's people like you, with your bigotry and apathy, who keep terrorists in business, murdering innocent children."

Very astute Guest, now go back and read the whole thread.

You may wish to apologise for tarring me with an inapropriate brush. I don't suppose you will though. But that's okay, because you don't have an identity, and anyway, I forgive you.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:55 AM

What a right load of old tat from EnglishJon. Casement for a start was not executed by firing squad - he was hung. His career before getting involved in Irish politics was somthing anyone might be proud of. In 1904 he made a notable report on the inhuman treatment of native workers in the Belgian Congo, (echoes of which are still reverberating today with the present enquiry by Belgium into the case of Lumumba). Promoted to consul-general in Rio he investigated the conditions in the Peruvian rubber plantations and his report exposing the cruelties practised by the European traders created a sensation in 1912. All this hardly evidence of a man who was in things "for the money." He could I am sure have made millions by going to the big companies and doing a little bit of blackmail - "Look fellows, pay me not to publish this report." As for his involvement in Ireland, he could I am sure have sat on his ass and don nothing as did thousands more. He had a lot to lose after all he was now Sir Roger. Perhaps it's a different Casement in a parallel universe EJ means. Wonder how it slipped by the scientists?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:01 AM

I too am amazed at the bluff lasting for twenty minutes.

You see how fired up people can be by bollocks?

However, he did side with Germany, for you historians.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:08 AM

English Jon,

I have read the entire thread, including your "bollocks" misinformed diatribes, intended to inflame the thread.

Which only serves to prove my point. You are behaving like a racist, bigoted troll, which clearly makes you feel better.

You are the one who owes the people interested in genuine, constructive dialoge participating in this thread, an apology.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:43 AM

Guest who has read the entire thread will see my apology has already been given.

To refresh:

"I guess it was inevitable that this would upset somebody. Oh well, Sorry, but it's just how I feel about it. "

nothing racist or biggoted about not wanting to kill anyone, now is there? If pacifism defines me as a Racist then fine, me and Ghandi will sit back and watch all you non-racists shoot each other if you want to.

On a seperate note, having more than a little Irish blood in my body (from both sides of the border), I am all for Irish independance if you really must know, (especially if it can be achieved without importing 20,000 rifles in a submarine), but that was never the point of my original rant. I think it is wrong to kill people for any reason. There are no mitigating circumstances.

Just a little background about me: I speak french, german and dutch (badly) and work for a translation company with an office in Dublin, so claims of racism and bigotry don't really apply - sorry. And I play Irish fiddle in the pub every monday and thursday. Not that that will change anyone's opinion of me.

Note: the only "anti-irish" comment I have made is "I hate bloody riverdance", a sentiment shared by most of my Irish friends, including Sinead from Comhaltas who started calling me "English" Jon in the first place. If that comment inflamed the thread then I'm sorry, an attempt at humour, that's all (obviously misplaced). To conclude, this is getting to be like flogging a dead horse and anyway I've got a gig to get to, so I'm going to let this one drop. Chat amongst yourselves.

EJ

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:43 AM

Hi English Jon:
I enjoyed and apreciate most of your intitial responce to my post. A few corrections, then we'll have a pint. (Make mine diet coke, my liver is gone). We Otways are related by marrage to the Casements, so I have always had a soft spot for the fellow who's last misfortune culmanated at Banna Strand (first Corection) where he was captured after a bad soaking, and hideing in McKenna's fort until he contracted such a bad cold etc. that after his lack of medical help in prision, he would have died if he were not hanged. (yup handed not shot). Sir Roger was looking - not for aid from the Germans, with whom he had no special problem, it being the first not the second world war (a war that the IRA sent troops to Spain while the British Government (I stand corrected) sat on the fence, where they fought with individuals of the British working class, like Jamie Foyers)... well anyway he was looking to have captured Irishmen returned to fight in Ireland. He found no volunteers, but he did get a load of useless Russian (not German contrary to the ballads) rifles, which, thank god, went down on the Aud (the safest place to stand when they were fired was directly in front of them, as they often threw their bolts, killing the shooter!)
Well, where were we, Ah yes, Roger decided after a short time, he couldn't STAND the Germans, (even the royal family I presume!) so... (hey there is a point, could he wanted out of the Empire BECAUSE he couldn't stand Germans?... well, he should have met our own dear Wolfgang, maybe history would have been different, eh?)
Fact is, on democracy in Britain, where I would agree with you is that in an environment of overt political censorship, one cannot have democracy. But the tut tut tut, comes of the plauge upon both your houses rhetoric "You can't solve fuck all with a bullet" I took to mean that waring sides in Ireland were both at fault. If you meant that to be a three way equation, I stand corrected an appologize. But you can't have two sides pointing a gun at the third and telling that side, disarm, and expect change!
Best wishes,
Larry

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:49 AM

Whoops one more correction. The rifles weren't on the submarine, they were on the frieghter, Aud. The Submarine, (at first the U21 under Lut. Com. Walter Swieger, the boat that sank the Lusitania) developed engine troble and had to return to Germany, so Roger was late to arive in Tralee bay. Waiting on the shore was Morty O'Leary, (who's grnadson taught me to build currachs). Morty was to be the pilot for the Aud, but she kept giving the wrong signal. Morty knew it was the Aud, but was stuborn and off that beach he would not go, until he got the right signal. Meanwhile the six young lad who were to bring Morty the new signal had driven off Connor Pass and were killed in the crash. So, the HMS Otway (no kidding) spoted the Aud, and well the rest is history.
Just one more to say, thank god for cheep watches...
Larry

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: SDShad
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:54 AM

Yes, Jon. Casement did "side with Germany," but you've got the wrong war: WW1, not WW2. It's not as if he were a Nazi collaborator.

But further, Casement's involvement with the Germans was a function of his Irish Nationalism; he had been involved in the Gaelic League and the IRB long before all that happened. Like many Nationalists of his day, he saw "England's difficulty as Ireland's opportunity"; seeking assistance from England's enemies when she is at war was a centuries-old tradition in both Ireland and Scotland. Casement was "pro-German" in the same sense that many other leaders and participants of 1916 were: Pearse, Connolly, Collins, de Valera, etc. Are they to be as vilified as Casement, too? Or just Casement, because he was the one who actually travelled to Berlin to ask for arms and troops?

Having now read up a bit on Casement, I also have to wonder if the special vilification of him at the time of his execution was out of what we today would term "gay-bashing." How many people who today see him as a traitor to Britain (or, on the other side, aren't too enthusiastic about including him in the pantheon of the martyrs of 1916), realize that those old attitudes were, at the time, closely intertwined with an anti-homosexual smear campaign against him between his arrest and execution?

Chris

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:54 AM

English Jon,

Being a bigot has nothing to do with one's ancestry or where one lives.

There is no shortage of self-loathing, West Brit Irish bigots living in Dublin, who regularly rubbish the republicans and nationalists.

If there were, we'd have a united Ireland by now.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: SDShad
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:59 AM

Whoops! InOBU made many of my points for me, while I was still out on the Web checking facts on Casement. Cheers, Larry, and you do make an important distinction that I forgot to include: the guns he was given were in fact Russian (hadn't caught that one yet), and the troops he sought were Irish POWs.

Chris

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:00 AM

Good point Chris, I'd not thought of that.

Was Wilde a contemporary of Casement's? Wouldn't the homophobic campaign used against Wilde to imprison him have occurred round the same time as the campaign against Casement was waged?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: SDShad
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:08 AM

Good though, Maire, but nope. Wilde died in 1900. His sodomy conviction and sojourn in the prison system (including the infamous Reading Gaol) came in 1895 (to 1897).

From the website where I looked up the dates:

During his final fever, he still retained his wit: "My wallpaper and I are fighting a duel to the death. One or the other of us has to go..."

God, I love the man's wit.

But Wilde's persection and downfall are a good bellweather of what Victorian and post-Victorian attitudes towards gays were in British society. Of course that witch-hunt mentality continued well into the twentieth century, bringing down and killing a genuine, if at the time unsung, British hero, Alan Turing, during the 1950s. Among others.

Chris

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:08 AM

English Jon wrote:

"Politicians WILL NOT allow democracy to stand in their way."

In a democracy, people don't allow politicians to stand in the way of justice and fairness.

That is in a democracy, the rights to freely dissent and to freely assemble are so essential for staging effective protests against political and other institutions wielding the power of the state.

Remember the whistle protests?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: SDShad
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:15 AM

"Whistle protests?"

Sparks my curiosity. My Google Search (or, excuse me, Google Sewch, uh-hah-hah-hah--sorry, see the Multilingual Google thread) yields nothing on the term. What were the whistle protests, Maire?

Slan,

Chris

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:22 AM

OH! One more point... I wish to state my complete solidary with English Jon on the subject of Riverdance...
Larry
Wars can end when we find something to agree on,... especially when it is a new scape goat, a quote from Omar the Duck,

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:51 AM

Glad you asked!

In the wake of elections held in the former Yugoslavia in 1996, the government refused to honor the election results. The whistle protest was the people's response to their election being hijacked. Euro News ran the protest in the "No Comment" spot for awhile as I recall. Similar to Irish republican women's bin lid protests.

The Greens in Germany, amongst some others, have tried to adapt it to other circumstances. But the whistle protest, and the strikes that went along with it, eventually forced the government to honor the election results.

It was the real beginning of the end in Belgrade for Milosevic & his cronies.

I got this lovely historic piece off the 'net quite some time ago and saved it--written by a woman involved in an organization I think was called East-West Women, or maybe it was from the Women in Black organization. Anyway, it came from a non-nationalist feminist website in Belgrade.

Enjoy!

Belgrade, 84th day of protest

By Lepa Mladjenovic [e-mail] 13 February 1997

Beograd - The political situation in Serbia has not changed much yet. There has been passed a special law in the Serbian parliament about accepting the results of election - which was the main cause for beginning the protests. Now the opposition and the people are waiting to see if the law will be promptly implemented, in the meantime :

1. Students are still in daily protest. They are walking again every day throughout Belgrade, starting from noon untill up to 3pm. The police is not at all appearing during their protest.

2. Opposition coalition 'Zajedno' are still in daily protests as well. They usually start with inviting people to come out during the TV News to bang and whistle in the certain places in each community. then they all get together and walk up to the center of town, and around 9pm the opposition leaders start speaking. The police is set up between street and the pavement and does not bother protestants any more, in the last week it is so.

3. All the faculties of all universities in three university cities are in strike, and there are no lectures for three months now.

4. From the 2,200 primary and high schools in Serbia, 1,800 are in strike (We are talking of public schools).

5. The trade union of school teachers has organized two-days protest in front of the parlaiment, today and tomorrow, at noontime.

6. All the kindergardens in Belgrade are in strike / closed down.

7. In 42 towns in Serbia there are in some kind of opposition or student protests against the regime.

8. In few towns in Serbia local women's organizations are organizing women on the street to oppose the fact that mothers with children have not get their child benefit (if that is the term) in the last 11 months!

9. Women's Study Center does not reopen for the next semester untill the University reopens.

10. On and off, the theaters and cinemas are in strike.

11. Vesna Pesic, the founder of the Antiwar Center and the leader of the Civil Alliance opposition party has been nominated for Nobel Peace Prize together with Vesna Terselic, the founder and the Coordinator of the Anti War Campaign in Zagreb (Croatia), and the leader of the only non nationalist party in Bosnia and Hercegovina, 'Union of Bosnian Social Democrats', Selim Beslagic from Tuzla. Feminists first of all support Vesna Terselic, she is an active feminist and peace activist and a beautiful woman. Vesna Pesic is pro-feminist, and Selim Beslagic was the only city major, in Tuzla, in the entire Bosnia and Hercegovina who succeeded during the war to spread non-nationalist politics in his town. That was very dangerous and very difficult.

Comments of a feminist:

First, one has to note that primary and high schools and kindergardens are full of women and mostly lead by women. The President of their indipended trade union of teachers is a women. Also, the teachers have a long history of strikes since their salaries are very low and conditions for work very poor more than 6 years now.

Shall we ask why, if feminsits have long time ago made an analysis of female dominated jobs and their status in society compared to some others. OK.

Second,

I wil describe the scene from tonight.

So, the people are not banging on their widnows anymore, but they come out at a certain square and they bang together for half an hour there. The part of the town where I live is called Dorcol: it is one of the oldest parts of town where Jews and Gypsies used to live. In the Second World War, from 11.000 of Jews only 200 remained, others were killed in the concentration camps. So Dorcol does not have any more Jews but does have old people, poor people and Gypsies/Roma. Tonight the mood among people was very merry. There were lots of young girls and boys whistling, one of them had a name of his high school on a banner, there were families with kids, there were women who came out with pots and tops of the pots, so either banging on the top with spoons, or banging two tops one on the other. . . there was one middle aged Gypsy man and his son. Usually they are not concerned with the white Serbian governement, they dont feel it as theirs, and they are rarely seen on these protests (which are mainly lead by the bourgeois). But the father and the son were there. The father had a huge red plastic watch in which the time appears in big digital numbers. He had a big transistor near his ears. The transistor was wrapped with rope because some big elements were sticked to the back and the batterie were on the edge of falling down but were not. The Roma man was making noise with the folk music, and his son had a whistle, and they were part of the non-Roma crowd. Just near them there was an old granny, very old, maybe over 70 or 80 years old. She had probably put the white boots on reverse, she must have had a reason, and she had a very red whistle in her mouth, coat, and the metal tray in one hand and the wooden spoon in the other. She was seriously banging without stop. Among the crowd in the middle of the intersection in Dorcol, and therefore the traffick was stopped, there were many women of all ages whistling, they looked so powerfull and touching, whoever they are.

lepa mladjenovic, 13 februar, 1997, beograd

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 12:01 PM

Amazing how the thread has "twisted."

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 12:30 PM

Fiolar,

It is amazing. One main point I'd like to get across here is that cynicim and apathy about politics can have murderous results, and that compelling actions, taken as a form of expressing one's righteous anger, can have tremendously positive, constructive and far reaching political consequences.

Too many bourgeois British, like their American counterparts, tend to justify their apathy and indifference towards political violence, tyranny, and injustice, with this pacifist PC crap. They live in wealthy, comparatively free societies, where political violence and crushing poverty are largely unknown to them, and everyone they come in contact with in their daily lives.

In other words, they call well afford to be pacifists. Especially when, like English Jon, they can't be bothered with righting injustices they, as citizens of the nation who's government is responsible for those injustices--requires thinking and too difficult an effort to bring about substantial, meaningful political and social change.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Grab
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 12:47 PM

Guest, unless you have an identity, you're a troll. If you want to be taken seriously then post with an identity, or be ignored as a troll.

Re Maire's comments, certainly a democracy means groups of ppl with the same opinion banding together to bring pressure on the government. It happens, and things change. Some politicians on both sides in NI are acceding to popular pressure to change. Some aren't. The ones that aren't will eventually fail to be re-elected, and therefore things change.

The idea of the NI Assembly is to allow NI self-government on issues like day-to-day running of the country and law and order. Is it working? Not too well, bcos both sides in NI don't (or won't, or can't; spin-doctor it how you will) trust each other or the British and Irish governments. And remember, no-one in Britain elects politicians for the NI Assembly - that's your choice, and the NI Assembly depends on NI politicians running things. I know you didn't vote for Trimble, but he's the head of the Assembly, and therefore you are as responsible for his actions as Jon is for the actions of Tony Blair - you can't have it both ways. Think on.

(BTW, as a member of the UK (whether you like it or not) you are also responsible for voting Tony Blair in - now that's guaranteed to get you foaming at the mouth! :-) I'm not even half-serious here, but you see the point.)

What democracy doesn't mean is using violence as a tool to bring pressure to bear (or as a tool of government, something of which the British Government has also been guilty of). I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, merely pointing out that any group which still keeps hold of weapons (and, worst case, keeps using them) cannot say it's supporting democracy, since there's the implied threat that if they find themselves on the losing side in a vote, they will simply pick up their guns and go back to violence. The point is that holding onto guns does not protect your community from violence, bcos the person with the gun is (by sheer percentages, if nothing else) unlikely to be the one attacked. Holding onto weapons merely gives opportunity for retaliation.

As far as democracy goes, I'm dead against the GFA linking a progression towards democracy with decommissioning and deactivation by terrorist organisations. Democracy should be there regardless. However, this has been put forward by ppl who, as you say, "appreciate the realities of the situation on the ground", ie. that the "political parties" in fact have large caches of arms and ppl ready to use them. This then has the situation we've got now, where the terrorists can stall the GFA. Catering for the "realities" is therefore responsible for failure of the democracy programme - if the two were not tied together then democracy could still go forward and the terrorists would merely find themselves sidelined.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 01:01 PM

Maire, while I do not disagree with many of your points and stance, I would suggest that.....

Too many bourgeois British, like their American counterparts, tend to justify their apathy and indifference towards political violence, tyranny, and injustice, with this pacifist PC crap. They live in wealthy, comparatively free societies, where political violence and crushing poverty are largely unknown to them, and everyone they come in contact with in their daily lives.

.....this statemnet on your part suggests a lack of historical knowledge of the US. Certainly it's a blanket condemnation and while it may have an element of truth, I'd say that it a bit naive at best. It's a generalization of the worst kind and serves no purpose.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 01:30 PM

Graham states:

"Some politicians on both sides in NI are acceding to popular pressure to change. Some aren't. The ones that aren't will eventually fail to be re-elected, and therefore things change."

Which is what happened in the most recent election. However, Sinn Fein's gains weren't made by taking voters from other parties. Their gains were made by bringing in a new generation of young voters who have been empowered to take political action of consequence. No other party in Ireland, north or south, has been able to do this in the past 10 years.

And then goes on to say:

"The idea of the NI Assembly is to allow NI self-government on issues like day-to-day running of the country and law and order. Is it working? Not too well, bcos both sides in NI don't (or won't, or can't; spin-doctor it how you will) trust each other or the British and Irish governments."

The devolution movement in Britain includes devolved assemblies and powers throughout the UK, ie Scotland and Wales as well. How well is it working in those instances? It is all relative. There is profoud mistrust of London, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Belfast, and Dublin too for that matter. This is a *process* which is on-going. Eventually, I believe, we'll see independence for both Ireland and Scotland, and their assimilation into the EU, if current government trends in Dublin and Edinburgh are anything to go by.

And then:

"And remember, no-one in Britain elects politicians for the NI Assembly - that's your choice, and the NI Assembly depends on NI politicians running things. I know you didn't vote for Trimble, but he's the head of the Assembly, and therefore you are as responsible for his actions as Jon is for the actions of Tony Blair - you can't have it both ways. Think on."

You are assuming too much about me here. I'm an American citizen.

You are really arguing the old British government propaganda line here Graham. Sinn Fein is a republican party, not unlike the SNP in Scotland. The latter has aspirations for independence from Britain. The former is a party demanding reunification with the Republic of Ireland. You are acting like everyone on the British mainland is in lock-step with Downing Street. That is disingenuous.

I don't foam at the mouth about the north being part of the UK at all. I recognize it as a reality that has to be dealt with, as the process works its way towards eventual reunification of the north with the Republic. I don't have a problem with Britain. Just a problem with Britain in Ireland. Like I do with the U.S. in _______(fill in the blank). And I am serious about that, but you may not get my point!

And then:

"What democracy doesn't mean is using violence as a tool to bring pressure to bear (or as a tool of government, something of which the British Government has also been guilty of)."

Oh come on, there has been use of political violence as a tool to bring about democratic change for centuries. This is such a bullshit argument. Graham--war and violence worked very well for the U.S. to gain independence from England. It worked in France.

Many democratic reforms have been brought about through the use of both state sponsored and so-called terrorist sponsored political violence--if you wish to deny the reality of history, go ahead. But it won't change the fact that both governments and the people who oppose them, use violence as a means to their end.

Having said that, I am committed to movements for democratic change who try to bring that change about non-violently wherever possible. But there have been plenty of instances in history where it wasn't possible or even plausible. And that continues to be true today.

The IRA is not a signatory to the GFA. They continue to keep their arsenals because it is one of the few bargaining chips, along with Sinn Fein's electoral gains, the republican community has in negotiations. Strategically, they'd be fools to put their weapons beyond use at this point, when no meaningful political change has yet taken hold.

It is important to keep in mind that Sinn Fein is extremely marginalized in this process, and truly wields no power or authority within the power structure of Northern Ireland or Britain. They also aren't using the weapons--their ceasefire has held for years. If that ain't enough for the British, the British Unionists, and the Irish government, then they are, as BigMick stated, not genuinely interested in peace--they are merely interested in maintaining the status quo that keeps them in power--in this instance, destabilizing life on the ground, and terrorizing the republican and nationalist communities in order to provoke retaliatory violence, which will then be used as a club to beat Sinn Fein out of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

I agree with you completely about how the GFA should not be linked to decommissioning, but to the operation of inclusive, democratic political and social institutions. However, the British government, the U.S. government, the French government, and many other presumed democratic political institutions, currently hold a shitload of the most destructive weapons--ya know--nukes, cluster bombs, fighter jets, subs, etc--on the planet. And they use them regularly against innocent civilians all the time.

So I find arguments claiming that IRA weaponry is a barrier to democracy to be pretty specious. What is blocking progress towards democratic rule in Northern Ireland are the Ulster Unionists and Loyalists, the British and Irish governments, and the global media cartel.

The most important, salient point to be made regarding IRA weapons is that they haven't been used in years. Loyalist weapons, RUC weapons, British security forces weapons, and EU water cannons, have been and continue to be used, with great regularity against the citizens of Northern Ireland, regardless of what community they are from.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 01:48 PM

This has been a great, spirited discussion, but I'm off-line now for the weekend myself!

Spaw--I really have an excellent grasp of historical knowledge about the U.S., Britain, and Ireland. I did not say "all" British and American...

I said "too many"

It is a very real problem, in my opinion. The bohemian bourgeois in both countries, which have a dangerous tendency to talk a lot, strike poses of an inauthentic social radicalism, and behave like right wing reactionaries whenever the subject of political violence rears it's ugly head.

Pacifist and non-violent movements have led too many naive lambs to the slaughter, in my opinion...from the American South, to El Salvador, to India/Pakistan.

How do you justify those deaths? How do you justify Gandhi's role in the partitioning of India and Pakistan, which has now put the world at very real risk of nuclear war?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 02:33 PM

(Once again, the problem is religion. If these people's ancestors hadn't each decided that the other ones' supernatural being was inferior to their own supernatural being, none of this would be happening. Again.)

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 02:59 PM

BBC Northern Ireland reports:

"Ulster Unionist leader David Trimble has apologised to the family of the murdered County Antrim teenager shot dead on Wednesday.

The former Northern Ireland first minister had claimed the murder of 19-year-old Ciaran Cummings was a result of a link with drugs and had been carried out by republicans.

Speaking outside Hillsborough Castle in County Down on Friday, Mr Trimble said the information he had received had been false and he would now like to withdraw his comments. "

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Grab
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 03:02 PM

An invalid assumption on my part Maire - I'd assumed from your knowledge of the situation that you were from NI. The "foaming at the mouth" was a slight joke, but irrelevant.

As far as voting goes, the young voters have been empowered to vote for Sinn Fein or the UUP or whoever they want from age 18. The reason they haven't is exactly what Jon said, the political parties have not offered anything which appeals to them. This time around, Sinn Fein have offered a political package which is in line with what ppl want, and they've therefore made big electoral gains - that's democracy. If you're right about Sinn Fein attracting previously-disaffected voters, then Jon's point is strengthened by this.

I'm not arguing that everyone in Britain follows the government line - rather, exactly the opposite. You appear to believe that in spite of our personal political beliefs (I voted Lib Dem, BTW), all British ppl are collectively responsible for the actions of our government. I was pointing out that it's no more the case than that the Catholic population of NI is responsible for David Trimble's actions - or, in your case, that you are personally responsible for George Bush (perish the thought :-)! If it turns out that you've voted in the minority, that means that your views are not represented. It's not great, but that system also stops ppl like the BNP from getting political representation, and for that I am eternally grateful.

Maybe Sinn Fein has no power in mainland Britain - that much is true. That's the whole purpose of these local Assemblies, so that individual areas can be run to the benefit of the local ppl by the local politicians, instead of being run from a distance by Westminster. If the Assembly ran to plan, Sinn Fein would have a great deal of power there, and therefore would have a considerable say in how things worked.

As far as "political violence" goes, history shows that these weapons will be used almost exclusively against civilians - this will be even more the case now that the British Army is out of the picture. This is entirely counter to the purpose of this thread, which was commemorating a young Irish boy killed for no good reason. The purpose of having these weapons is to threaten violence against (a) the police and (b) the Unionist community. As for claiming that these weapons are required to protect the Republicans against British nuclear weapons and cluster bombs, that's just silly.

After some searching, I found this site which gives the actual stats on how many ppl have been shot or beaten per year. Neither side is blameless, although the Unionists are the worse offenders.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 05:30 PM

I've been trying to think of anything that Gandhi could have done that would have stopped the violence and the breakup of INdia and Pakistan. Or anything he did that contributed to it. What he did do certainly reduced the number of deaths, and led to his own death, at the hands of a fellow Hindu.

There are situations where in practice violence is inevitable. Gandhi once said that if the only choice was between violent resistance to injustice and no resistance, violence was the better choice - but non-violent resistance was the best choice, and the only one that could achieve true justice in the long run.

Non-violent resistance in Northern Ireland over the years - and that includes a willingness to die if necessary, the same willingness shown by the hunger strikers - could, I believe have got us to a just peace settlement sooner and with more hope for the future than the 30 years of violent struggle. Maybe it wasn't possible, noone can ever know that. I think it could have been possible.

The trouble is people see non-violence as a way of avoiding suffering. It isn't, it's a way of channelling the inevitable suffering so that it builds rather than destroys.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:49 PM

Maire, would you be so kind as to email me at [e-mail]? Since you are not a member I cannot send you a PM via the Mudcat. Drop me a line.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 06:39 AM

The use of non-violence in Nothern Ireland is a red herring as for years the Catholic community were terrorised by the B-Specials and the so called peace-keepers the RUC, and before any one rushes in and tells me that I am maligning a great police force, just remember some of the incidents over the years. I think it was an Inspector Nelson (apologies if I am wrong) who massacred a Catholic family and later got promoted. Also remember Burntollet and God only knows how many other incidents. If non-violence and bowing to so-called higher authority worked - great but just look around the world and in the pages of history. With very few exceptions, states which today are independent and valued members of the world community nearly always got their independence by turning to "violence." Shall I start with the USA and progress to the Irish Republic, Kenya and so many others. Also the calls for the decommissioning of IRA weapons is really another obstacle by the Unionists who let's face it just do not want to share power with the Nationalists. If a head count is taken of the number killed by gunshot say as compared to those killed by bombs, I know which would be the greater. Bombs can so easily be made from fertilizer and sugar. With regard to Trimble "apologising" it says something of the man who uttered the lie in the first place. Does he think that a few words uttered before the cameras can heal the hurt and anguish that his original words caused and remember there are always lunatics in that benighted place who will believe his first statement rather than his second.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:59 AM

One of the most insightful articles on Drumcree I've ever read at a mainstream media site.

In today's Irish Times, an article by Fintan O'Toole:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/newsfeatures/2001/0707/newsfeatures8.htm

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:15 AM

"If non-violence and bowing to so-called higher authority worked" - bowing to higher authority is no part of non-violent resistance. Non-violence doesn't stop people getting terrorised and brutalised, but then nor does violence.

But then dying in a hunger strike is a lot harder than being killed in battle. People are capable of the most incredible heroism - and that is what a non-violent struggle needs if it to be effective.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:21 AM

Makes one wonder if the Jews in Germany and the other occupied countries had taken up guns against Hitler and his thugs whether the situation would have been different. Just a thought. I'm all for modern Israel's slogan "Masada Shall Not Fall Again."

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:34 AM

It is helpful when people make the necessary distinctions between the theology or philosophy of non-violence, and the use of non-violence as a political tactic.

The former, like liberation theology, seeks to establish a theoretical model to be used to fight oppression. The philosophies of well and little known champions of non-violence have often used in this way. There really hasn't been much incontrovertible "proof" that it has worked one way or the other.

The instances cited here as models of this philosphy (the partitioning of India/Pakistan, in El Salvador, and in the American South during the Civil Rights era) are examples of how people tried to implement the models in contexts of extreme violence. How effective the use of non-violence was in these instances is pretty controversial, despite the insistence of some true believers that non-violence "worked" in these situations.

The latter is a use of non-violence as a political tactic like any other. It is most often used only as long as it deemed effective in the context. This would include "sit-in" type demonstrations where people chain themselves to fences. The civil rights movement used it to great effect, but the anti-war movement of the 60s just never did seem to be able to get it together with this tactic. I would also add, the civil rights movement used it as a political tactic much more than it did as a philosophy of non-violence. The supposed non-violent philosophy of King has much more to do with his post-assasination legacy as embodied by his wife, than with what King actually believed in at the time.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 09:42 AM

Fiolar. Israel was fighting an invading foreign army. Irelands problem is much more complex. Irishmen fighting Irishmen for the sake of Ireland? Murder, violence and retribution, will only achieve another 300 years of murder violence and retribution. Hate and revenge is the only legacy it passes on to each generation. Emulate the past and the only future is mutual destruction. Surely we must stop the killing and think of the future? It is time we embraced one another; we are too much alike to hate each other like this. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:09 AM

Dave while I appreciate your comments, I think it worth pointing out that there was no way Ireland was going to get her freedom unless people were prepared to resort to violence sad as it was. Michael Collins the master-mind behind the fight for freedom saw this quite clearly. The history of the Home Rule Bill going all the way back to Gladstone saw failure after failure of its implementation either due to threats or parliamentary defeats. Collins however was prepared to negotiate from a position of some strength when it came to the crunch. Do you honestly think that Lloyd George and the others would have given a tinker's curse if Collins and the other delegates had gone to London cap in hand saying "please sir, I want Britain to give us a Free State." The point about Masada is that people are prepared to die for their country to ensure that it stays free.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,AussieJohn
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:13 AM

This is a fascinating thread in which many things are turning out to be not as they first seem to be: English John is 'more Irish than the Irish', Maire the ardent NI nationalist is a US citizen. Am I right in believing that Ireland's main troubles stem from: 1.British conquest of Ireland and settlement of large numbers of its own people there who were (and are) loyal to her? 2.The eventual withdrawal of British authority to the north-eastern corner of Ireland to retain an area wherein the majority of the people would be loyal and be able to exercise a comfortable 'democratic' hegemony over the remainder? 3.That thus came about the forced incorporation of some half-million or more nationalists inside a specially created state with about a million unionists? 4.That the existance of that state was (and is) guaranteed by the British government which for whatever reason wishes to retain it as a part of the UK? 5.That the Brits were (and are) prepared to use military force to maintain the status quo? 6.That Britain was (and is) therefore responsible for the evils that befell NI and brought about the Civil Rights campaign in the 60sand 70s? 7.That Britain at first attempted to deal with the troubles as an 'honest broker' with no stake in the outcome other than fair dealings with all parties? 8.That almost immediately Britain turned to her 'own' people in NI to get advice on the ground and discounted any proffered advice from the 'other' side (including Dublin)? 9.That Britain thus lost the opportunity of playing a positive role and instead fell into the old attitude of taking her own very presence in Ireland as the sole arbiter of what was 'good' for the locals? 10. That Britain accordingly encouraged the unionists to adopt (or maintain the most extreme positions as regards any settlement of one of the longest running colonial wars of all?

Rationalisations about holding NI for NATO etc do not hold up. A united or even federated Ireland would surely be prepared to be 'friendly' towards her European neighbors, indeed Devalera hinted almost as much at the outbreak of WW2. No, it is an atavistic longing to retain a last fragment of empire among establishment circles in Whitehall, the military and landed gentry with interests in both countries that make it so difficult for mainstream Britain to see that she is part of the problem and needs to think 'outside the square' if she is to be part of the solution.

So long as Britain continued to guarantee the on-going existance of a separate NI state there never could be peace. Now with the Good Friday Agreement, Britain has gone further than ever before in recognising the need to take the rest of Ireland into account in any settlement of the troubles. Now she must take the most difficult step yet in undoing the mischief she created. She must bite the bullet and insist on the dismantling of the RUC in return for IRA disbandment and the creation of a new police service along 'Patten' lines. The unionists will be 'outraged' of course and Paisley will forecast 'armageddon' (once again), but if Britain holds firm most unionists will realise that its finally reality time and that they actually can share the country with the 'Free State' without losing their religious or political or economic freedoms. But this will only happen if the British people abandon simplistic notions like, 'THEY are at it again in Ireland' and 'a plague on both their boring houses'. Remember YOUR government built both houses, whether or not their purpose was benign.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:25 AM

I suppose "Masada shall not fall again" means "always be stronger in arms than the people you are fighting". Masada fell because they were up against an enemy which was very much stronger. Nothing to do with any notions of non-violent resistance or whatever.

If you aren't in a situation to be stronger in arms than your opponents - if for example you're a republican in Northern Ireland, or a Palestinian in the Holy Land today - the only way you can be stronger is if you can outlast them, and take more punishment than they can give.

This means that, even if it's a struggle involving extreme violence, at its heart is a non-violent strategy. The violence is essentially symbolic - by which I don't mean that it is not lethal, but rather that its central purpose is not to achieve military victory, but to act as proof of a continuing resolve, and to bring it home to the people on the other side that they can never win. The purpose of non-violence would be to do the same thing, but in a way that did not poison the future in the same way, even if it involved as much human cost in the short run.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:31 AM

Fiolar. No argument from me about Collins and the struggle to become a republic. My point is that although Ulster was cut out of the republic, it was at (the time) a compromise agreed to by Devalera. The civil war in the republic afterwards (in which Collins was killed) reinforces what I say. Englands investment in the industry and people of Ulster could not be ignored, given the circumstances of the day. There has been much acrimony and unfairness since that division (I do not not care to debate) but had people learned to stop hating and killing long enough to heal some of the wounds, a political solution would be simpler and possible. The plea of the majority is to let this healing commence. History taught us that it took 11 years of peaceful negotiation, after 1776, before all 13 colonies could agree to sign what became the US constitution. All of them working toward a unified agreement. All of them equal partners and with unified goals. This is something to remember when talking politics in Ireland. It will not happen at all if the killing continues. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jimmy C
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:39 AM

Dave,
It appears to be as you say, except Orangemen do not consider themselves Irish. They may have been born there, probably their ancestors were also born there, but you will find very few who will openly admit to being Irish, unless they leave and go to Canada, Australia or other parts and then they are as Irish as anybody else..
They have been a priviliged class since the state was set up, the majority they claim to have is an artificial majority, they see the writing on the wall and sooner or later will realize that they are a minority in most parts of the six counties.
If they don't change soon they will leave a legacy to their descendants of being a hated minority in the new Ireland that will come, and come sooner than most expect.
Just read some of their responses to recent changes regarding housing, employment etc., what should be considered basic civil rights for catholics are referred to as concessions. Even little children going to school in Ardoyne are asked to walk an extra mile to gain entry to the school rather than walk past a few orange houses, and yet they want the right to parade down the Garvaghy Road with their sashes and bands playing anti-catholic tunes.
They better waken up and do it soon. I believe that many Protestants realize this, and all protestants are not automatically orangemen by the way. When the time comes for Ireland to be united, you can bet your boots that the doctors, lawyers and big farmers will not be on the streets fighting. But the die-hards from the Shankill, Tigers Bay and a few other areas will and there are still many guns and explosive devices in these areas, that is one reason why the IRA cannot give up all their weapons,
Another reason is that handing over weapons is a sign of surrender by a defeated force, and that is not the case, The Provo IRA agreed to a ceasefire and have adhered to it in the face of provocation. They did not agree to a surrender. The decommissoning of weapons was part of the agreement, the removal of military bases in south Armagh and other parts was also a part of the agreement, the new policing system was another part. All parts have to be implemented, but it looks like a case of " You do it first" and this will not fly.
History has shown that the Irish cannot trust the British, the nationalists cannot trust the police, and that is the real problem.
I wish the guns were destroyed, and I mean all guns, nationalist guns, loyalist guns, police guns and I wish that the loyalist community will grasp civil rights for what they are, and they are not concessions, they are rights.
Just last week Davie Jones a counsellor in the Portadown region met with the parades commission as a representative of the whole community to overturn the decision to reroute the orange parade returning from Drumcree Church. 42% of his constituents are nationalists, what sort of representation is that ?.
All parades, loyalists and nationalist alike should be banned for at least 10 years, maybe then we can have a united parade in an atmosphere of fun for all, turn it all into one big happy Mardi Gras type of celebration without the religious overtones, It would be good for tourism and everyone will have a great time as friends and a laugh at they way their ancestors used to fight among themselves ?, IT could happen .

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:56 AM

Jim. I have never believed in disarmament as being anything other than a "feel good wimpy liberal idea" that is both stupid and unworkable. However the symbolic laying down of arms is a vital part of the peace process in NI. The IRA are not what I fear, I fear revenge killings by angry and hateful individuals who will do anything to destroy such a political process. The bombings and violence serve unto small purpose, whatever is said here. As human beings, I pray that the drums and marches will be just as you say; a celebration of history, and a reminder of how fragile life is, and how precious we are to each others survival. Had I been killed I would not want to be avenged, but have my death serve as a reminder of how much I loved people who are catholic and protestant Christians. Ulstermen and Republicans. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:56 AM

I don't really believe the most hardened loyalists will keep fighting once the British government is gone, and reunification with the Republic, or assimilation into the EU (whichever comes first) occurs. They will be so marginalized, as to be wholly ineffective.

As you say, Jimmy C, most Ulster Protestants will not identify themselves as anything but British, even after hundreds of years and many generations of their ancestors living in Ireland. As someone else said, British loyalists and unionists, once they emigrate to the US or Canada, identify themselves as having been Irish. But that is because the tide has turned in NA. Despite the fact that the Anglo American institutions of Canada and the US still retain their power, the perception of Anglocentric culture is often quite negative, whereas Irish culture is more often seen as positive.

It wasn't like that in North America 30+ years ago, when the Troubles began. Then, the perceptions were reversed.

But to be fair, many Ulster Protestants nowadays would just as soon not be associated with either the Church of Ireland or the Orange Order, in the same ways that many Irish Catholics don't want to be associated with their church. The reasons behind that have nothing to do with the Troubles, really, and everything to do with the decline in membership and lifestyle habits which no longer put religion at the center of social life. In that sense, Ireland, north and south, is just like any other modern Western country.

It also discounts the "religious conflict" theory to a large extent.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 11:00 AM

"Except Orangemen do not consider themselves Irish. "

Now that's a dodgy generalisation if there ever was one. If it means all Northern Irish Protestants, it's just not true. If it means all members of those marching organisations with the Bowler Hats, it's not true either.

At one time Unionism was about a minority in Ireland who wanted to keep the whole of Ireland linked to England. More recently it's about one bunch of Irish wanting to stay separate from another bunch of Irish, and making use of the English connection to strengthen their hands.

I don't think anyone has ever suggested that the Confederates didn't consider themselves Americans. (And I believe they hoped at one point of trying to bring in the English to help them.)

Yeah, and I'm sure it's quite possible to find people in Northern Ireland who would say they didn't consider themselves Irish in any sense.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 11:14 AM

McGrath of Harlow,

Have you spent any time in Northern Ireland? I ask this because it has been my experience that some people from the Protestant/unionist/loyalist communities will identify themselves as Irish (and indeed much prefer that to "Anglo Irish"). But in my experience, most people from those communities do continue to identify themselves as British. Often not in an antagonistic way--it is just the way they identify themselves. As long as Northern Ireland is part of the UK, they are still accurate to self-identify themselves in that way, in the same way a Scottish nationalist can still identify themselves as British, and sometimes (often?) do, especially to Americans, or when participating in these international forums where they wish to identify themselves according to their citizen status of one country or another.

It is a bit like marching through a mine field for those outside these islands, trying to figure out just how you might refer to someone's nationality without starting a bloody flamewar!

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 12:47 PM

Yes, I've spent time in Northern Ireland. And I was objecting to the generalisation that suggested that seemed to suggest that everyone on the Protestant/Unionist side of the divide didn't consider themselves Irish. And I note that GUEST (you must have a handle of some kind) agrees with me on that.

But even where people see themselves as "British", in most cases that doesn't mean they don't see themselves as Irish as well. No one would suggest that a Scot who doesn't support independence for Scotland isn't a Scot. Even if they might think he or she was a fool.

And some of the most extreme "Loyalists" don't even in any sense aspire to be British, but something totally separate.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jimmy C
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 04:07 PM

I bet you will never get the likes of Ian Paisley, Davy Jones and their ilk to ever claim to be Irish. A few years ago during a television talk show, Gerry Adams challenged a leading Orange politician to admit to being Irish, right there on the TV and he would not. (I think it was Ken Magennis). I lived among them for more than 25 years and I have never met one who will openly admit to being Irish. I mean orangemen not protestants in general.

The Scots may call themselves British but will call themselves Scottish as well, ditto for the Welsh, but this is not the case in the six counties.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,irony?
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 04:07 PM

Cummings - ancient Irish family? Looks to me like an English name.

Descendents of settlers murder descendent of settler. The Red Hand of Scotland??, the individuals who do the dirty work are of lower intelligence. The ones issuing the orders probably able to read and write, but still thickos.

Mr David Trimble, it must surely be impinging on his mental fringe somewhere somehow that the Loyalists are now murdering IrishAnglos. Is this like something we have seen before? Yup. 1917.

S.Africa, another center of Orangism, has Police and Army this week are removing poor Black squatters from Government and White's lands. The White's retain 80% of the land. Since the nations to the North have begun giving back to the natives land taken by British settlers in the 1800's and there is similar sentiment at home, it looks as if the NI Orangemen may need to make room for some refugees!

In the teens of this century the British Government murdered by firing squad the leaders ( majority of these men were AngloIrish ) of the Irish Republican Army, a revolutionary movement in Dublin Ireland, thereby bringing closure - so they thought - to a recently failed bloody uprising.

Within 5 years the British HAD to make peace in Ireland with an AngloIrish man, Michael Collins. In that peace to quote Eamon De Valera a 'terrible beauty was born'. Ireland free of foreign domination for the first time in nearly a 1000 years!.

I think Mr. David Trimble is not as foolish as some think him to be! Hey when did any politician ever have an qualms about covering his butt. :)

Whatever you may think or know about this man, I do know he is far better than the idiot of NI, Rev Ian Paisley.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Jimmy C
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 04:15 PM

I believe you are quoting " Yeats" and not De Valera

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 04:30 PM

The fact that they are so keen to hold on to that RUC badge with the harp on it is a measure of the ambiguity involved in all this. Or again you have a sectarian song like Croppies Lie Down, with the first verse:

We soldiers of Erin, so proud of the name
We'll raise upon Rebels and Fenchmen our fame
We'll fight to theb last in the honest old cause
And guard outr religion, our freedom and laws
Wwe'll fight for our country, our kind and his crown
And make all the traitors and croppies lie down.

If some of them want to make a pretence of not being Irish, that's their business, and I doubt if many of them really believe it. It's when you get anyone agreeing with them that it gets dangerous, because that's the road to ethnic cleansing.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 04:32 PM

A few typos in there:P>

We soldiers of Erin, so proud of the name We'll raise upon Rebels and Frenchmen our fame We'll fight to the last in the honest old cause And guard our religion, our freedom and laws We'll fight for our country, our king and his crown And make all the traitors and croppies lie down.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: alison
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:11 PM

I AM one of those "Ulster Protestants" who is proud to call herself Irish (and was proud of it a long time before I ever moved to Australia.... and no I didn't move because of the troubles)........

I hate this time of year (marching season)...... it makes the world think that all Protestants are Orangemen, or in Loyalist Paramilitary groups... WE"RE NOT!!! nor do we all hate Catholics. Unfortunately the distrust of each other (both "sides") runs deep and is still passed down through the generations, although hopefully now that more people are seeing sense that will change. The majority of people want peace, and I still continue to pray that they get it.

I love Jimmy's idea ....."All parades, loyalists and nationalist alike should be banned for at least 10 years, maybe then we can have a united parade in an atmosphere of fun for all, turn it all into one big happy Mardi Gras type of celebration without the religious overtones."

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:16 PM

Well put alison... Aye, (praying for the day) Dave

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:42 PM

And that, my dear friends, is why I relentlessly pursue her over cyber hill and dale. Well said FAIR ONE. The whole Protestant/Catholic thing is a phony construct created by those who profit most from it. Where folks say their prayers has nothing to do with it all. I have great faith that the people of goodwill, those who want peace, those Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics, will get this done this time. Unfortunately there will be more martyrs. That is the way of it. But if the world will support those taking the risks for peace.............just peace...............it will happen this time. And they must also denounce forcefully those who don't. I pray that it will be so.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 06:02 AM

Dave - sorry to disagree with you but the whole reason the Civil War in Ireland occurred was the hypocrite DeValera did not agree to the terms of the Treaty which Mick Collins and others had signed. He had sent Collins to negotiate and the man got the best deal that was available at the time. Dev on the other hand having had previous "secret" talks with Lloyd George, knew very well that the British Government would not agree to an Irish Republic of 32 counties and so sent Collins to be the sacrificial goat. The fact that Dev later took government and because president shows something about the brass neck of the man.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 08:38 AM

If Dev hadn't come out against the Treaty, there were plenty who would have. Ordinary people like my father down in Tipperary.

There's no use in reheating up the divisions and disagreements of those days, and picking out scapegoats, whether Dev or Collins or whoever.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 08:44 AM

Maybe, but it is one thing to disagree and quite another to lead half a country into war about something which you disagree with. After all the Dail voted to accept the Treaty.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 09:24 AM

Fiolar!
I am running to get to meeting this morning (Like Alison a Protestant who is not Orange!)... but, it has been a very buisy weekend, and I have not had time to comment on the really good conversation going on here. It is a difficult and emotionally charged subject, and folks have been really tring to respect each other, for the most part and that is wonderful.
One thing I can't let pass. Jews did have an active resistance once they learned the extent of the "final solution". Once they found that the camps were not a temporary displacement from the war and political times, they rose up not only in Warsaw, where they fought against unbelievable odds, and for the most part alone, but they rose up in Concentration camps, sometimes with some sucess, as in Sophibor (pardon the spelling)... The fact is that the major powers did not give them suport when it would have counted, and now after the fact, revisionists say they were not brave enough to defend themselves. They were and they did.
All the best,
Larry

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 10:23 AM

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the Irish, who would object to an Englishmans version of their history. DeValera deliberately sent Collins into a no win situation to save his own face, knowing the "accepted agreement" would cause division amongst the republicans. Perhaps the way I worded my previous post was misleading, but the fact remains it was a done deal; and DeValera was directly responsible for the civil war. Irishmen killing Irishmen for the sake of Ireland. History, but the fact remains violence continues to this day and will not cease long enough to heal wounds. Time to allow a sorely wounded people to find a peaceful political solution. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 11:09 AM

Let's not have the Civil War over again here. They both had their faults and their virtues. If anyone's to be blamed, the first place goes to that cynical wheeler-dealer Lloyd George.If anyone was "directly responsible for the civil war" it was him. And even he was manoeuvring in the context of having people worse than him breathing down his neck.

And like all politicians from Great Britain, then and now, the fate of Ireland was always very much secondary to their own domestic political interests.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 11:49 AM

A peaceful solution means allowing the history to teach us that violence begets more hatred, and it must stop now. Arguments and blame will not restore faith and hope, but maybe ten/twenty years of peace and healing will. I do not pretend to know how; but I do know that killing each other will never allow a solution to be found in my lifetime. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 06:38 AM

InOBU: Yes, the Warsaw uprising and the resistance in Sobbibar were magnificent but sadly the history of the Nazi persecution of the Jews is an anathema to any civilisation. My point is that the resistance should have started in the 1930s when Hitler was still feeling his way. Too many people believed the fiction of being rehoused and after all for God's sake who would believe that the Government would kill its citizens many of whom had fought in the First World War on the German side and many had been decorated, unlike many of the young Nazi thugs. The Observer of Sunday July 8th has another article on the theme that Western Governments knew fairly early on about the situation. The earliest record I can find about the start of the pogram is in March 1933 when Hitler ordered a boycot of Jews and Jewish shops and the first concentration camp was opened at Dachau. No doubt there were plenty of incidents before then.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Grab
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 12:04 PM

Aren't we vanishing slightly off-topic? Certainly the whole Jewish analogy is vanishing into the far distance, and the De Valera/Collins thing is going the same way.

Re JimmyC's post, I'll take you up on one point. You say that history's shown that the Irish can never trust the British, and several posters here are in favour of NI joining Eire. Trouble is, (a) the Irish government has said it is not interested in taking on NI, (b) the Irish government is working with the UK government in the peace process, (c) previous posters have said that the Republicans can't trust the Irish government. The self-contradiction in this is bizarre.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 12:32 PM

There's a good reason why nationalists in the north learned to mistrust the British government - and that's because, for much of the last century, the ruling party was "The Conservative and Unionist Party".
That's right - unionist. Post partition, the warped doctrine of No Surrender was as much an article of faith for the Tory party as any of the other absurdities it has perpetrated.
Remember it was a Labour government that sent in the troops first of all - in response to a terrified Gerry Fitt calling Downing Street direct from a chippie as a civil rights march was having seven shades of shit kicked out of it.
And, for a while, squaddies were welcomed as protectors by the minority nationalist community - until, of course, the government in Westminster changed colour and the establishment took over. Then came Bloody Sunday and all was lost.

Apropose not a lot else, it always makes me larf when the British government says: "Terrorists will never win!" There have been precious few instances of HMG divesting herself of her overseas colonies or dominions without a bit of terrorism.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 01:55 PM

Gervase, Leave it to you to impart some words of wisdom, Well done. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 02:25 PM

I'm just being pedantic here, Gervase, not seeking to make a political point, but there were quite a few "instances of HMG divesting herself of her overseas colonies or dominions without a bit of terrorism". Canada, Australia, New Zealand, most parts of Africa apart from Kenya...

All right there was Ned Kelly, and other small scale equivalents elsewhere, but they weren't the key factor. It basically came down to profit and loss, and most of the time the game wasn't worth the candle. The Empire was largely a matter of bluff.

Ireland's misfortune has been its geography, so close to England.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 07:16 PM

Hi Grab:
Clarification on Fiolar's statement which at first sound like a reflection on Jewish lack of self defense is not fully off topic for two reasons. All people make the history needed for the present political needs. At present, we are struggling here at positive responces to past revisions on the subject of Ireland to reach a constructive truth. In doing so, understanding history, generally is important, as we grow, intellectually by holding our own point of view against the comparison of other histories about which we have different frames of reference. In attempting to do this, Fiolar touched on a point which certain revisionists have been working hard, for many years, to put Jews in a position of being in part responcible for their own distruction - not being worthy of saving. Now, Fiolar made a responcible correction of that impression, and did so very well, but what that may tell us about the present on going revisions of Irish history may well be that the rest of the world looking at British agression in Ireland with no responce from the rest of the world, quick to try Solvadon Melosavich, but slow to charge Thatcher, Kissinger, Pinochet, well, there may be lessons there.
Fiolar, I greatly appreciate the clarification.
As ever, all the best,
Larry

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Neil Comer
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 08:35 PM

I write this to all, especially Big Mick, the only one who made an attempt to reply to my submission. We have got slightly away from the point here. The Orange Order march in the name of God (and that's being kind) They say they don't want terrorists at Drumcree, yet they make no effort stop this. Saying that people can protest if they like is like giving an open invitation to the baseball cap wearing, tattooted fraternity en-masse. Much as it galls me to say, there are good men in the Orange Order, men who have learned hatred ó ghlúin go glúin (from generation to generation). They said that they put a reasonable suggestion before the Parades Commission and that it was rejected. They failed to mention that it involved marching first. How hard can it be for these people to speak to Breandán Mac Cionnaith? They refused to condemn Johnny's Adair's presence at Drumcree last year! Orangism is the last bastion of Unionism. It is the last attempt to dominate an area. It is a swan song to the anachronism which is the Orange Order.

Tiocfaidh an lá nuair a bheas an tír seo saor ó reiligiún, ó shearbhas ó mhacallaí na gcéadtaí atá caite, meaite agus cráite

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 09:06 AM

To Guest Neil Comer: Well said Neil. I have no doubt that there are "reasonable" people in all branches of the Orange order. The problem is that they are only "reasonable" for their own point of view and are very loathe to see others. The BBC programme "End game etc" shown on Sundays makes some very telling points about the North. Perhaps it should be shown as part of the curriculum in schools all over the UK. Perhaps for those mudcatters who don't understand God's language you should translate your last sentence. InOBU: Sadly it wasn't only Germans who massacred Jews. A news item today has the Polish president apologising for the massacre of 1,600 Jews in 1941 in the town of Jedwabne. The murders were long thought to be the work of the Nazis but was in fact carried out by the Poles. Slightly off the point of Northern Ireland, does anybody recall seeing the marvellous 1956 Polish film "Kanal" which dealt with the Warsaw uprising?

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 11:13 AM

As to the marching season... I am convinced that to ban marching, though emotionaly I would agree with it, and also am against Orange parades though nationalist areas, at this point, I don't think that is a solution.
I am convinced that the solution is a well organized well coordinated process of reconcilliation as happened in South Africa. If after ackowleging history, we can have real understanding and forgiveness, then one can emagine marches with completely new meanings, where orange marches could be welcomed into nationalist nieghborhoods.
But at present, there a numerous reasons that the powers that be do not want us to get to know each other and the real underlieing history of the past decades in Irish history. It has to start in the communities, and I don't doubt that there will be high placed attempts to stop such a process. But, peace does not just happen. It takes the affirmative act of making peace. And that can't wait for hte government ot discover an interest n peace, the governments don't know how to make peace becasue they are too busy hiding the mounds of skellatons in their many closits.
We are seeing here at mudcat how the people can make peace through reasoned and intence talk (well writing...) think of how much better it can work face to face...
Fiolar, you are in deed right, in fact even in the German run concentration camp, the bulk of the guards were Polish, Ukranian, and others, the Czech Republic began killing Roma before the nazificaiton of their laws at Leti and now have, in violaiton of internaitonal convention, put a pig farm on the site of the Leti death camp, a great insult to the Jews and Roma who were murdered there.
Make peace, folks... and sing truth to power,
Larry

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: GUEST,Neil Comer
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 09:04 PM

Tiocfaidh an lá nuair a bheas an tír seo saor ó reiligiún, ó shearbhas ó mhacallaí na gcéadtaí atá caite, meaite agus cráite Fiolar (nice name) (The day will come when this country shall be free from religion, from bitterness and from the echoes of times long gone, spent and broken)

Sorry for not providing a translation!

The PUP pulled out from the 'talks' (always suspicious about that word). I am sorry. David Ervine is a good man, even though he represents the 'other' side, he sees that Joe Bloggs on the Shankill and his or her other half on the Falls are the same. Its time that the 'haves'(UUP/ SDLP) started realising that the 'have nots' (PUP/ Sinn Fein) are the real voices of the people. Lets face it, Sinn Fein voters want the same thing as PUP voters- jobs, equal opportunities and peace. Those who protest/throw petrol bombs on the Shankill and the Falls are young lads who are bored. Sort this out and we have the problem solved. How many of the petrol bombers/rioters etc know anything about their past? They are following the lead set by their peers and the adults to whom they look up. They don't give a s@@t about Loyalism/Nationalism. They want to a) impress the 'big lads' and b) relieve the boredom. As for a solution, I don't have one, but lets admit the real route of the problem before we attempt to solve it.

Déan pobal athuair d'Éirinn gan roinnt (Make a Community of Ireland, once more without blemish)

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 05:50 AM

To Guest, Neil Comer: The fact that the UFF claim not to support the Good Friday agreement any longer is fairly worrying but with the catalogue of loyalist terrorism over the past years, I am not surprised. The blanket of the Red Hand Defenders is always a convenient cover for any of the loyalist gangs who feel like a spot of arson or murder. David Ervine who to me appeared to be one of the "sane" voices on the loyalist side, sadly is allowing the sentiment of "the other side is getting too much" to sway his judgement. Again sadly too many young protestants see creatures like Johnny Adair as someone to be admired and anyway are thought a variety of history at odds with the real facts. Regarding history teaching, many years ago a friend of mine from Scotland was amazed when I gave him a history book which dealt with the history of Scotland from a completely different perspective to what he had been taught in school. He admitted that he had no knowledge of many of the events which had taken place. Without reading back through the whole thread, I can't recall if I mentioned about the evening class teacher (in Belfast I think) who taught history. When she came to part about the Plantation of Ulster, several students walked out, claiming that she was telling lies.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 08:05 AM

David Ervine who to me appeared to be one of the "sane" voices on the loyalist side, sadly is allowing the sentiment of "the other side is getting too much" to sway his judgement.

Who knows if it's even his judgement? "Leaders" are the prisoners of their followers so much of the time. That goes for all of them. Except possibly Ian Paisley.

Subject: RE: Another Sectarian Killing
From: Fiolar
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 09:31 AM

Yeah. I remember Paisley saying, when asked if he allowed terrorists in his congregation, that he had no control over who attended or words to that effect.