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Mudcat: A safe site for children?

GUEST,I'm a member, but a guest today. 10 Jul 01 - 04:34 PM
MMario 10 Jul 01 - 04:37 PM
Jeri 10 Jul 01 - 04:40 PM
GUEST,RichM 10 Jul 01 - 04:43 PM
wysiwyg 10 Jul 01 - 04:44 PM
MMario 10 Jul 01 - 04:46 PM
Jeri 10 Jul 01 - 04:46 PM
Bill D 10 Jul 01 - 04:53 PM
catspaw49 10 Jul 01 - 04:53 PM
BobP 10 Jul 01 - 04:58 PM
Clinton Hammond 10 Jul 01 - 05:00 PM
Walking Eagle 10 Jul 01 - 05:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jul 01 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,Karen 10 Jul 01 - 05:02 PM
BobP 10 Jul 01 - 05:06 PM
MMario 10 Jul 01 - 05:13 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 10 Jul 01 - 05:14 PM
toadfrog 10 Jul 01 - 05:20 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 10 Jul 01 - 05:33 PM
nutty 10 Jul 01 - 05:50 PM
SeanM 10 Jul 01 - 06:14 PM
mousethief 10 Jul 01 - 06:30 PM
nutty 10 Jul 01 - 06:45 PM
mousethief 10 Jul 01 - 06:53 PM
Hollowfox 10 Jul 01 - 06:56 PM
Max 10 Jul 01 - 07:02 PM
Noreen 10 Jul 01 - 07:02 PM
mg 10 Jul 01 - 07:13 PM
Jeri 10 Jul 01 - 07:22 PM
Noreen 10 Jul 01 - 07:52 PM
DancingMom 10 Jul 01 - 09:14 PM
andi 10 Jul 01 - 09:35 PM
mousethief 11 Jul 01 - 02:47 AM
mousethief 11 Jul 01 - 02:58 AM
English Jon 11 Jul 01 - 08:20 AM
GeorgeH 11 Jul 01 - 08:22 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jul 01 - 08:41 AM
Jeri 11 Jul 01 - 09:38 AM
MMario 11 Jul 01 - 09:46 AM
bbc 11 Jul 01 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,Russ 11 Jul 01 - 09:58 AM
jeffp 11 Jul 01 - 10:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 01 - 10:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 01 - 10:25 AM
Jeri 11 Jul 01 - 11:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 01 - 11:17 AM
SharonA 11 Jul 01 - 11:22 AM
Jeri 11 Jul 01 - 11:25 AM
Jeri 11 Jul 01 - 11:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 01 - 11:57 AM
Jeri 11 Jul 01 - 11:58 AM
Hollowfox 11 Jul 01 - 12:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jul 01 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,JohnB 11 Jul 01 - 12:23 PM
ermintrudeclaire 11 Jul 01 - 12:33 PM
Little Hawk 11 Jul 01 - 12:33 PM
Uncle_DaveO 11 Jul 01 - 12:36 PM
MMario 11 Jul 01 - 12:38 PM
Lonesome EJ 11 Jul 01 - 01:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jul 01 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,Denise:^) (both guest AND first grade teache 11 Jul 01 - 01:24 PM
GUEST 11 Jul 01 - 01:33 PM
hesperis 11 Jul 01 - 02:20 PM
dwditty 11 Jul 01 - 02:29 PM
Donuel 11 Jul 01 - 02:41 PM
MMario 11 Jul 01 - 02:46 PM
Jeri 11 Jul 01 - 03:13 PM
Little Hawk 11 Jul 01 - 03:47 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 11 Jul 01 - 04:43 PM
Ralphie 11 Jul 01 - 08:40 PM
Dorrie 12 Jul 01 - 03:24 PM
Mrs.Duck 12 Jul 01 - 06:09 PM
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Subject: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: GUEST,I'm a member, but a guest today.
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:34 PM

I'm beginnig to wonder if Mudcat should now be included in the sites that I filter from the kids.

Some of the nastiness that I observe here is not something that I want nine and eleven year olds encounterung.

And I must say that much of the nastiness does not come from guests, a lot of it is from regular Mudcatters.

It makes me wonder.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:37 PM

In general, yes, it's a kid safe site.

"Safe" does not mean free from unpleasantness.

And my estimates would be that the unpleasantness occurs a very small percentage of the time.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:40 PM

Your choice. Even when we don't have our collective knickers in a twist, there are songs and discussions with adult themes and language.

Eleven year olds can be pretty darned nasty, and at least one of the guests has seemed to be at about that age level or younger. I don't think they're going to learn anything new, but you may want to shield them from the knowledge that adults can behave badly. They may not have realised that on their own as yet.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: GUEST,RichM
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:43 PM

You could always restrict access to computer for your kid --including Mudcat, if it disturbs you.

I wouldn't want Mudcat to be dumbed down to the 10 year old level.

Rich


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:44 PM

I think your opinion would have carried more weight if you had "owned" it, and I think that posting it as a thread of its own will result in further upset.

These sorts of things are actually pretty simple IMO, if we would just remember ourselves, and that is hard when we get upset, isn't it? This is how I think it actually IS: Do what makes the most asense to you to do at any given moment about any situation; deal with what you find before you as creatively and accurately as possible and as true as possible to your own values; learn as you go from the positive models you find around yourself; and remember that others are doing the same.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:46 PM

Let me expand on that.

Would you not take a child with you to the supermarket because once or twice a year a couple has a domestic screaming match in the checkout line?

Would/do you forbid your child to go to the library because they possess a book you disapprove of and it might not be out on loan?

I am not advocating free access to everything on the web; but what occurs on the Mudcat at its worst is mild compared to day to day occurences at many other popular sites.

Better to teach a young child to swim in a pond that has the occasion nibbling carp - then to wait until they are an adult and then throw them into shark infested waters.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:46 PM

I'd certainly like it if I believed there was a chance an 11-year old could ask a question as a guest, and not get flamed from here to kingdom come.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:53 PM

and, ask yourself what YOU heard as a child, and whether it warped you too much...me, I just ignored it till I was able to care one way or the other


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:53 PM

I think the average 11 year old can and does have the ability to ask questions here and I must say, they at least are polite! We've had numerous instances of kids coming here and asking about their school projects or papers they are writing. with them we've discussed their subjects fromcahnteys to music of the mountains and the coal mines. Lately, we had one young man who used the info here to help in a contest which his group won and then took to the State level.......Adam was his name.

Rear your children as you wish. If this is a reality here that you don't want them to have at this point. block the site from them.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: BobP
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:58 PM

Poll please?

Teens or pre-teens among us - please respond?

Just a simple "Here" or feel free add comment.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 05:00 PM

No unmoderated Message Board is a safe place for children...

Mudcat is only lucky that it has such a small profile that the serious flamers and hackers have never noticed it...

Otherwise this place would be so spammed it'd shut down in a day and a half...

;-)


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 05:01 PM

My opinion, prudence with guidence should rule. There are lots of unpleasantries in the world that your children will face and will not have your guidence. Offer guidence on those things that you can in order to teach responsibility regarding the things that you have no control over. Jes' one woman's thoughts.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 05:02 PM

Why on earth would anyone want to post this with a different pseudonym to the one they normally use (or even if their normal handle is their real name, like me? It's hardly likely to inspire fury and hatred in anmyone, whether they agree with it or not.

I don't read all the threads - I doubt if anyone does, and I'd be a bit worried at anyone who did - but I haven't seen anything there that would measure up to the kind of thing that goes down in playgrounds. If anyone is worried about the Mudcat being bad for their children, they'd better get into de-schooling damn quick.

I think the Mudcat is in general an excellent example of how people can squabble and make up, and tolerate each other's foibles.

A bit of fairly high-minded vituperation, a bit of sarcasm (always to be avoided if possible, I believe, but unfortunately very cvommon in classrooms). Pretty well universal choice to avoid language that could seriously offend many people. And some excellent examples of how people can turn the other cheek in the face of insults. Or the other cheeks for tha matter.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 05:02 PM

My son is almost eleven. He would be bored to tears on this site. Too much to read, not enough pictures and where are the games?! I really can't imagine any child from that age group wanting to stick around long in the Forum.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: BobP
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 05:06 PM

I think Karen just broke the code.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 05:13 PM

I know I number of 11 year olds that would love this site as far as format goes; very text oriented, verbal and with good writing skills. What they don't have is an interest in folk or blues.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 05:14 PM

I think most 10 or 11 year olds would be bored to death on this site. ;o) Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: toadfrog
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 05:20 PM

Jeri made a very good point. If you want to shield your 11-year old from nastiness, do not ever, ever, ever permit him/her to go to school, or otherwise encounter other 11-year olds. To say nothing of 13-year olds (shudder). Not unless things have changed a whole lot since I was in 6th Grade.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 05:33 PM

I think this is a difficult one, would you stop your kids watching the news in case they saw someting upsetting? I think there has been a bit of silliness recently, but Im sure some sites are much worse, I feel it would be a shame if young people stopped been interested in folk music. I dont have kids, but wouldnt really worry about an 11 year old son looking at this site, I know there is the occasional rude word hear, but Im sure they have heard much worse at school anyway. Perhaps you could limit your kids to maybe 1/2 an hour a day, and supervise them.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: nutty
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 05:50 PM

I don't think this site would cause any anxiety if viewed by children.

If I , an intelligent,experienced adult have difficulty understanding what half the threads are about then I would not expect any degree of understanding from a child

There is of course the occasional expletive which , if they could read and understand, is no worse than words they can hear every day in the playground.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: SeanM
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 06:14 PM

McGrath, I think you got the point of this one from the start.

Sounds (and looks) rather like the standard methods of the flaming GUEST that's been attacking the 'cat for the last week.

My advice is to ignore this thread, and move on. I highly doubt that the original poster is genuine in motivations or presentation. If they are, my apologies. In either case, the question is answered.

M


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 06:30 PM

'd certainly like it if I believed there was a chance an 11-year old could ask a question as a guest, and not get flamed from here to kingdom come.

I've never seen anybody who asked an honest question get flamed from here to kingdom come. This is illusory. This is a red herring, a straw man, a load of bullshit. It's people who get nasty, and flame others, who get flamed from here to kingdom come.

Sometimes somebody who asks for a song that's already on the DT will get flamed -- I won't mention any names, but one such flamer has a pat-on-the-back thread in his name going right now. I once complained about this and was told that I have no right to complain, since I'm not as knowledgeable and helpful about trad music as this person. Apparently this gives you the right to be rude. Silly me.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: nutty
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 06:45 PM

Alex .... I had similar feelings until I met the gentleman in question. He was so different from what I had imagined .... not in the least rude or bombastic but very modest about his knowledge. Talking to him was extremely interesting and I know now that he is naturally forthright in a way that could be interpreted as rudeness.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 06:53 PM

They say that being online brings out the worst in people. Pity.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 06:56 PM

Well, Guest, we both know that there can be some earthy humor around here. I'll pose it to yuo this way, do you let your child attend parties that are thrown for adults, the kind where there are no activities to entertain the younger set? Not a rowdy party, just one where a bunch of fully-grown friends get together to visit, tell jokes, etc.? There's a risk of earthy humor in that kind of situation as well. (I know, as I child I was at all the parties my parents had at our house.) As Jeri said, it's entirely your decision.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Max
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 07:02 PM

My daughter is 11. I want her to come here. Many kids come to festivals and gatherings, I like to take mine. We should act accordingly, as if children are present. I ask very little for what I do, and I am proud of what I do. It would honor me to let my child in on what makes me happy and what makes me proud. All we can do is all we can do. Lets do it.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Noreen
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 07:02 PM

I would be delighted if my children (14 and 9) showed an interest in the Mudcat, and I occasionally read out to them bits of witty repartee from the forum. They are, however, unlikely to be interested in stuff to do with 'Mum's hippie friends'... *grin*

As others have said, they see and hear far worse in their daily lives, and learn to cope with nastiness by discussing problems in a supportive home environment.

My daughter came home the other day having seen a discarded magazine by the roadside, and we were able to talk about why ladies would have their photos taken in such positions and wearing and doing such strange things... I hope my children will always feel able to discuss such things with me.

Noreen


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: mg
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 07:13 PM

I think there is no reason to make this a child-friendly site or to self-censor everything that would make a child blush. That is assuming that posts might be risque or ribald but not pornographic or downright nasty. If a child is coming here, I presume his/her parents know about it and permit it and can shift them away from threads they don't want them to read. I think the likelihood of this becoming a site attractive to seventh graders looking for thrills is pretty remote. mg


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 07:22 PM

Speaking of a load of bullshit, Alex, you're wrong. I can remember a few threads started by guests who got flamed just for simply being guests, and not because of what they said. One that really sticks out in my head was a woman, a friend of a regular Mudcatter, who asked about ending a marriage and she got a lot of crap about who she really was, and what she really meant to do.

I don't think telling folks about searching for songs constitutes "flaming," even if the poster sounds irritated.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Noreen
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 07:52 PM

Alex- I seem to remember you getting irate and unpleasant on more than one occasion on this forum- quite possibly with good reason- but it's always easier to remember the faults of others than your own. </pompous stance>

Jeri, that's really the only thread I can think of where the reaction of mudcat friends shocked me. Generally, co-operative guests are treated very well.

Noreen


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: DancingMom
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 09:14 PM

My 17-year-old loves it. We've had some very interesting discussions based on what we read here. My 12, 10 and 9-year-olds don't care too much; they know that it's "What Mom does" on the computer. They enjoy the history of the blues and folk music, and like to find out about upcoming concerts, like the concert series in Charlottesville that Mrrzy posted (Thanks, we're planning to go!) They are already learning to deal with rude and crude behaviors from some of their peers and with some of the media and popular culture in general. As stated so wisely in previous posts, I think it's important to help my children develop their coping skills in a supportive home environment. And (thank goodness) we DO have choices. Sharon


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: andi
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 09:35 PM

Being relatively new to the mudcat, I would like to say I find most of the folks her extremely newbie friendly and I doubt that changes if the poster is a youngster.

As far as keeping this site child friendly; I think that would cut down on a lot of discussions that are not necessarily meant to be porngraphic or offensive but honest discussions. Children do not belong in all adult discussions and adults should not have to stop themselves from honest pursuit of knowledge or even just venting because a kid might see it.

At the risk of being flamed, what ever happened to parents taking the time to say "We don't behave that way, but some people do"; or spending time with the kids while online.

As I said before I work doing tech support, I spend an extreme amount of time online and from where I sit it is truely frightening to see young kids and teenagers on line as much as I do,obviously without parental guidance.

I can point to specific chatrooms and messages board not unlike this one where kids as young as 10-13 spend 8 -10 hours a day in a room with adults.Does it then become our resposibility to constantly censor ourselves? I think not.

Please let me explain why: None of us go out of our way to talk about explicit subjects around the kids but we have had adult discussions in front of them, have our "in jokes" and such; to take that away from the adults would be plain wrong. The site in question is made by an adult for adults to talk "girltalk" , not meant for kids, but they do come in. Some of them fit in well and develop real friendships with folks because they know we are _real_, not perfect, but real. We get mad, scream, swear, fight, talk about sex, have fantasies and dreams. What does it do to the kids? Well, I have had one come to me and talk out suicidal feelings and tell me she was being abusee and I was able to get her to talk to her pastor about it. Another girl was able to talk out the confusion and anger at seeing a friend abused and stalked by her first boyfriend.

Max, I applaud your wanting to have your daughter share your love of music and for it to be safe. The only way to make it completely safe is for you to be there with her and to direct her to the threads she should be at. Also,have her tell you if she comes across something or someone that makes her uncomfortable if you do let her surf by herself.

The other threads serve a function too. It's not to make the place unfriendly to kids but making it a place where real people can come to solve real problems , musical or otherwise. Yeah, Trolls happen and they are annoying , but can anyone honestly say the know absolutely no rude, angry people in real life? Or in the case of flames, that they never have arguments in real life?

What the kids can learn here pertains not only to music but to real life. The biggest thing they learn, beyond music, is that everyone handles things differently and that some of those ways breed anger and the better ways breed understanding. And understanding others, is, to me, one of the most important lessons a child can learn,anywhere

andi


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 02:47 AM

I have gotten irate, and nasty, much to my shame. But to the best of my knowledge it was never to a guest simply because they were a guest, and didn't understand how things work around here.

Okay, Jeri, I do remember the thread you mentioned. It was a dark day in the Mudcat, but fortunately such incidents are pretty rare.

Flaming is determined by level of nastiness, IMHO. Just because you're a regular, and telling somebody they should look in the DT before starting a thread, doesn't mean you're not flaming.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 02:58 AM

PS well said, andi.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: English Jon
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 08:20 AM

Well, like any board, there's a certain amount of cobblers, but nothing desperately harmfull. The worst you can get is a heated argument and some bad language.

EJ


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 08:22 AM

As one who doesn't moderate his expressions because he doesn't see this as a kids forum, I'd still say this site is as safe as any playground . . (and of course I'm talking about content and not taking account of the physical dangers of a playground.

Mind, I'm intrigued at the idea that an 11 year old might not have discovered that Adults can be badly behaved, unreasonable, lose their tempers, swear, etc . . I just wonder what planet they'd have been brought up on.

G.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 08:41 AM

This post of mine is a bit drifty, but I think it's relevant enough.

My advice is to ignore this thread, and move on. I highly doubt that the original poster is genuine in motivations or presentation.

I don't think the intentions of the person who starts a thread is of any more significance than the intentions of anyone who posts there. It's not unusual for a thread which was clearly started by someone with malicious intent to actually turn into a enjoyable and useful discussion. Just because you start a conversation it doesn't mean you own it.

That's one reason why getting too excited about whether someone is what they appear to be hasn't much point. I remember that thread about the lady thinking of leaving her where some people got excited about whether it might be a leg pull, which it wasn't. So what if it had been? There are plenty of people around in that kind of situation, or with useful experiences to share concerning things like that.

And there was another case where someone posted identifying themselves as a Pole interested in sea shanties, and there was a similar business (some of it daft because it centred on people thinking that it was improbably to have Pole's singing sea shanties, which was just plain ignorant).

And once again it was completely irrelevant - it doesn't matter if a person posting is "genuine" or not. Or at least not sufficient to risk being unkind to a stranger.

I think we're using "flame" a bit loosely here, to include the odd grumpy remark. I think it means something a bity strionger and more sustained than that. And it doesn't crop up here too often. The odd grumpy remark does. Fortunately less often than in schools, unless teachers have improved their manners more than I think they have.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 09:38 AM

Mousethief, I wasn't much better tossing the "bullshit" back your way. I've never seen you be nasty to a guest because they were a guest, and I have seen you be helpful to them.

There were a few other threads started with what appeared to be dumb questions. Questions only seem dumb to folks who know the answers, and think everybody else should, too. In any case, there are two logical responses: answer the question or ignore it.

If someone asked "Why do you like that boring old folk music?" it might be a troll. It also might be a kid, and we'd have the opportunity to tell what's not boring about it, and why we like it. How would you respond to that question from a GUEST, and how do you think others would respond? I think a bunch of folks would focus on the "boring old" and not the "why do you like" part. The question's the main melody, and the "boring old" is just noise, but a lot of people pay more attention to the noise.

People sometimes choose a third: state imagined motives of poster, and "expose" them as the troll they are. If they're someone asking a simple question, they have no clue why people react that way. If they really are a troll, they probably enjoy the change in focus of attention onto them. When you were a kid, did you ever play hide and seek with a kid you didn't like? If you were "it," did you ever just let them stay hidden and intentionally not find them?

Oh well, I think I've probably beaten this one to death here and on past threads.

As far as this place being "safe" for children, folks around here get mad and suspicious sometimes, but rarely abusive. The anger and suspicion often get worked through. Children who are never exposed to negative emotions from adults don't know how to deal with them when they suddenly encounter them later in life. If they're exposed to angry people here at Mudcat, and are at home or in school where they can ask questions about it, they may receive a very important lesson. They also may learn that adults can get mad at one another sometimes, and still get along. They may learn about apologies, or how we try to understand others' points of view, even if we don't agree.

I think we're all learning here. We're learning how to deal with our own suspicion and anger sometimes. Sometimes, we're learning what can happen in the whole of Mudcat because of what we post, and how easy it is to change the mood of a thread with a few negative words. I know others won't see things this way, but I think in addition to learning as individuals, there's a sort of collective conciousness here. There's a Mudcat entity that includes all of us, members and regular guests alike, and Mudcat also learns.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: MMario
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 09:46 AM

Bingo! Thanks Jeri for putting that into words. I've been trying to say that for a while, but have never been satisfied with what comes out.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: bbc
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 09:50 AM

What is safety? Our world is not a safe place for children or adults. I am a mother of 2 & an elementary librarian. I know that I am more liberal than some parents in what I let my children view, in books, films, video games, etc. I work in a school district that blocks Internet keywords & sites quite freely. I don't agree w/ Internet censorship. Frequently, I find relevant, interesting search results & then find I can't access that site because of some prohibited keywork, like "Web Hosting." In addition to that pet peeve, I really don't think my students would be shocked/warped by most of what they'd discover w/out the blocking, particularly if someone would take the time to discuss it w/ them. I agree w/ much of andi's post. Mudcat is a group of people (mostly nice people), a slice of real life. My children are exposed to real life when teased at school, subjected to danger & rudeness on our local roads, & more upsetting situations than currently come to mind. I'm happy for them to see the group of folks I consider friends, the Mudcat international community. In answer, no, it's not safe; what is? If you want safety for your kids, you're fooling yourself. What we need to do w/ our kids is educate them to discern good from evil, right from wrong, etc. & to help equip them to deal w/ our unsafe world.

bbc


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 09:58 AM

Mudcat at its absolute worst is still tame compared to what is regularly available during prime time on TV.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: jeffp
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 10:16 AM

It's weird. Just this morning there was an article in our local paper about behavioral problems in schools. They listed several examples - a third-grader upended his desk and spat obscenities at his teacher, a fourth-grader kicked another girl in the back while walking down the hall, a first-grade exposed himself.

And someone wants to know if Mudcat is safe for kids? Compared to school, I'd say so.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 10:20 AM

Course it aint safe - I wouldn't want my kids getting into folk music, wearing wooley pullies, playing instruments and singing songs. They might end up like me!

Nah - far better let them go on junior chat rooms and let them get into underage drinking, sex, hooliganism and violence. That way they are sure to grow up normal...

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 10:25 AM

Whoops - sorry. There's me using sarcasm again (or is it irony - never sure) Never mind eh? I'm sure our 'guest' as a long time member will understand the difference.

Damn! There I go again...;-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 11:14 AM

DtG - STOP THAT SARCASM/IRONY/WHATEVER STUFF RIGHT NOW!

Add to possible lessons available at Mudcat: the recognition of humo(u)r not typically displayed on TV sitcoms.

"Mom/Dad, why is that Catspaw guy saying nasty things to people, but they all seem to like him?" Of course if mom/dad doesn't get it, the kid may still miss this one.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 11:17 AM

OK Mum.

(Setting good example)

Dave the good little Gnome:-)


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 11:22 AM

To "GUEST,I'm a member, but a guest today": I'm curious; at what age would you deem it to be appropriate to expose children to a forum such as this?

How would you determine, in your children, the level of maturity necessary to deal with flaming, trolling, adult subject matter and colorful language in a responsible manner?

How would you raise your kids in the meantime to handle the situation when you finally allow them to encounter it?

Several other parents here have described their methods of child-rearing; I'd like to see where you're "coming from." I have no kids. But I can tell you from having been raised in a very strict environment, where many things were not-allowed-and-not-allowed-to-be-discussed, that the child's inevitable backlash of trying to deal with adult issues without the proper tools to do so is painful for parent and offspring alike.

SharonA


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 11:25 AM

*Sigh* Nobody ever listens to me...


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 11:37 AM

(My last message was aimed at DtG, in a sort of thread-creepy way.)

SharonA, I think you've pointed out something it would have been good to know at the start. What is GUEST,I'm a member, but a guest today.'s idea of what a safe site?

A lack of safety seems to mean immediate possible danger to life and limb. I'd expand that to mean mental health as well. There's no possible danger of bodily harm at a message board/forum. As for mental health, I think one would have to know a child, and know what vulnerabilities individual children have. I think this site, and the typical human emotions displayed here, is quite safe for kids who are capable of dealing with displayed emotions in Real Life.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 11:57 AM

I'll listen, Jeri, honest!

Out of interest and in case anyone had not noticed (though I am sure you all have - just me being daft and making double sure). There is a distinct pattern in our guests style.

One line statments.

Each seperated with a blank line.

Like this.

Know what I mean?

Check out the posting anonymously thread and a few of the other non-music ones of late.
I'm a troll, fol-de-rol
I'm a troll, fol-de-rol
I'm a troll, fol-de-rol
And I'm going to come from under my bridge and eat you up...

Just watch out for big billy goat gruff.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome
(Who knows a little about mythical creatures;-))


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 11:58 AM

Good, though...


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 12:05 PM

Guest, is your concern possible earthy content or possible rudeness?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 12:14 PM

Probably right. But as the Borg say "irrelevant". It's quite an interesting topic - not just the Mudcat, the whole business of knowing where when and how to protect children.

I remember when the magnificent storyteller from Clare, Eddie Lenihan was over in Sidmouth one year the booked him into a storytelling session for children in the library.

He let rip, as he does - blood and gore and cannibalism and everything. The kids were goggle-eyed, and loved it. I heard a worried mum asking the librarian "Do they check what these stories are going to be like?"

What kids need protecting from isn't stuff like that, or stuff like us. It's the stuff that is put out for them by people who are trying to sell things, and trying to turn them into future compliant customers.

The storyteller Dan Keding who sometimes drops in here has some good angles on adjusting stories for children.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 12:23 PM

"Wrap said child in cotton wool, place in a hermetically sealed glass tank and never let them out" How the hell did WE all survive. JohnB


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: ermintrudeclaire
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 12:33 PM

My kids are 8, 11 and 12 and I would be happy for them to learn from mudcat, but as has already been said i would expect them to be bored to tears by most of the content. Folk songs are often fairly risque and I can remember going to Spinners concerts as a kid of about 7 and laughing hilariously at the jokes whilst not understanding a word! Everything on mudcat is less than whats on TV and in the real world, and how do kids learn to deal with expressed feelings if they are protected from them? That said i dont allow any of my kids in chatrooms.......


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 12:33 PM

Is Mudcat a safe site for children?

Are you serious???

I've met any number of children who are considerably more dangerous than Mudcat Cafe.

Have you seen the video games that are marketed to the children of North America on a regular basis these days? How about the TV shows?

I wouldn't doubt that there is the occasional sensitive child who might be disturbed by something that has been said by someone on Mudcat.

Well...ain't that just like the real world? I remember being hurt by countless things that other people said and did in the real world when I was a child.

That's life. Mudcat is a VERY minor risk in the great field of life.

And as McGrath said above: "What kids need protecting from isn't stuff like that, or stuff like us. It's the stuff that is put out for them by people who are trying to sell things, and trying to turn them into future compliant customers."

It deserved to be said again! Right on, McGrath!

- LH


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 12:36 PM

Dave The Gnome:

Irony and sarcasm are related, as you point out. Sarcasm is a subset of irony, distinguished by a higher level of "bite" or maybe hostility. Irony may be merely tongue-in-cheek.

Dave-the-Pedant


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: MMario
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 12:38 PM

[cynical satirical mode ON]Obviously JohnB, "we" are all warped, twisted, psychotic individuals due to being brought up unshielded from the realities of life. I mean, I was exposed to public prayer of at least 5 faiths before I was 12. And remember the "LIFE" series on conception and gestation? yup - saw all them full colour pictures and read all the articles before I was even 10. and *gasp* changed the diaper of a child of the oppisete sex when I was only 9!

Of course probably the worst factor was that I was actually punished for infractions of rules.

it's no wonder I am such a mess![mode OFF]


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 01:12 PM

Regarding what Mousethief said above, it is also my perception that there is an inner group of "Traditional Music Scholars" present on this forum, and these people have a great deal to offer in terms of shared knowledge. I often read the threads where they discuss such things as the background of Child Ballads, topics with which I have only a passing familiarity. I often find them interesting, sometime just too esoteric for my more contemporary and blues-oriented taste, but I very rarely post to them because, frankly, it feels like an intrusion. And the few posts I have made in those threads have sometimes been treated as off-topic interruptions, accompanied by a reprimand to "search the DT and Forum before posting". Such responses are not conducive to encouraging participation by those who might be considered Novices in the pursuit of Traditional Music topics, but I would suppose that that is the intent.

It occurs to me that a little sympathy and warmth in response to any well intentioned post, no matter how ignorant it may appear, could go a long way in spreading the knowledge that our resident Traditional Scholars possess.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 01:22 PM

Sarcasm is always nasty - it's using irony, which in itself is merely a harmless way of skewing the way you say things (or the way you see things), and using it as a weapon.

From the Greek sarkazein - "to tear, gnaw flesh lige dogs, to bite the lips, to sneer, taunt", from sark/sarx , flesh" - as my dictionary puts it eloquently.

"No dark sarcasm in the classroom" as Pink Floyd also put it eloquently.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: GUEST,Denise:^) (both guest AND first grade teache
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 01:24 PM

1)Yes, most kids would probably be bored. 2)If getting into the (most often) subtle ribaldry exhibited in folk music is the worst thing they do--HOORAY!! They are already rising above their peers. 3)Have you turned on your TV lately? Have you looked at (many) modern picture books? While student teaching, I was handed a book I never would have chosen, and told to read it to the class. A little later, I was called to the office--seems a parent walking by had heard me reading, "Shut up, you're so stupid!" to the students, and went and told the principal I was calling the kids names...It took some fast talking to explain that one! And this is a story in a much-touted series of contemporary children's picture books.

Let'em read Mudcat. They'll find worse in their school library!

Denise:^)


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 01:33 PM

In the movie "As Good As It Gets" (with Helen Hunt and Jack Nicholson), Nicholson's character plays a writer whose caustic personality belies his success at writing romance novels.

A memorable scene in the movie occurs when a fan asks Nicholson how he writes about women so knowledgeably.

"Easy," he says, "I think about a man and then I take away reason and accountability."

Nicholson's character never met Jeri.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: hesperis
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 02:20 PM

Hmmm, yeah.

If you don't think that mudcat is safe, then you might want to brush up on your parenting skills.

My mother got really early level books on how babies are born and stuff like that. I read them before I was 4 years old. I was a virgin until I was ready to open up to someone in that way - just past my 20s. This is in the city with the highest level of teen pregnancy in the whole county!

My mother had a talk with me about drugs when I was 9 or 10 years old. She had taken some of them earlier in her life, and she told me exactly what they were like, what they do to the mind, and how you can get that "high" in a truly healthy way, without any substances. Some of my friends in high school did drugs, and some of them wanted me to try it. I told them I was crazy enough without doing anything... and were they sure they'd want to see me crazier than I already am? They backed down immediately.

I later tried "maryjane" once but it didn't do a thing for me. I was already high without it.

It's amazing how an open, frank discussion of reality can help kids to make choices that are right. And not just "morally right", but right for the kid, too.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: dwditty
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 02:29 PM

I only read about half of this thread, but here is my take. Pay attention to what your kids do, see, smell, feel, taste, and hear. The world is certainly crazier than it use to be. Kids run into stuff all the time. Left to their own devices to analyze and make value judgements about those encounters is, in general (and in my opinion) not a great idea. Kids today are no different physiologically that we were at their age. They are just not equipped with enough experience to make wise decisions in many situations. The amount of guidance they receive from the world is vastly different than it was "when I was a boy." The point is, parents must take responsibility. In preparing our kids to cope with life, we cannot shelter them from all the crap that exists, nor can we just let them go about making their own interpretations without some help.

Personally, I am probably more strict than many. In my book, R rated movies are not for my 6 and 9 year olds. I may give in when their 16 instead of waiting til 17. Or I may not. I'm sure my older kids snuck R movies, but not on my watch. Likewise, my little ones do not use the internet unless I am sitiing there - actually, that time is great as we discover stuff together.

As for Mudcat, I would gladly bring them here - note: not send them here (it IS an internet site so I am with them). The Mudcat is, to me, a wonderful example of how the internet can be used for good - knowledge sharing, community, etc. With that, I'll take yet another opportunity to say, "Thanks, Max."

dw


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 02:41 PM

To heck with kids. I am tired of folks pseudo-sanitizing reality to skew some yard monkey's mind set. The water supply is full of unnescessary antibiotics to sanitize kids from a virus, the airwaves are full of kids braodcasting, hollywood caters primarily to kids and the bathroom unwashed hands of the kid at McDonalds is making your cheeseburger. Perhaps we should ask if we are safe FROM children on this site.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: MMario
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 02:46 PM

~NO~ place is safe from children - ask most parents...


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 03:13 PM

GUEST, thanks! I have numerous moments of stupidity, but mostly I can edit them out of my posts, if not my life.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 03:47 PM

Jeri - Yeah, that's the blessing of virtual reality...you get to edit out the mistakes,if you notice them, before anyone else sees them. I wish to God regular life was like that!

Or do I?

Well, yeah, I think I do...

- LH


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 04:43 PM

Dave the Gnome- I had noticed that as well, I suspsct gargoyle.Just trace gargoyles posts, then notice all the uncanny similarities,(thrad titles, style of writing, self written songs whithin posts etc).


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Ralphie
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 08:40 PM

As a 47 year old child....(!) I think that the forum works just fine, as long as I don't read postings from people who can't spell the definite article.....(Just have a look!!)
It's certainly not a threat to most teenagers I know......not rude enough! Regards Ralphie x


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Dorrie
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 03:24 PM

I was a only 14 when i 1st came across mudcat and it never offended me but i'm not sure about younger kiddies i'm sure they'd all be fine


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Subject: RE: Mudcat: A safe site for children?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 06:09 PM

If my children are here reading even the worst that Mudcat can throw at them then they are not surfing the porn sites or drinking on street corners so it must be safe. Actually both my 17 year old and my 7 year old read the forum . Anything really rude or crude goes over Maddies (7) head and Natasha (17) probably knows worse !!


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